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[NecrosaroIII]

I work for a logistics company. I'm our senior hazmat specialist.

We have a major new client and their very first order was a hazmat shipment. One of the directors of the company wanted us to cut some corners to get the ball rolling but insisted in following the processes by the book because
A- The shipper has certain responsibilities and we need to ensure they're properly conducted before risking our IAC(sort of a license to transport cargo on passenger aircraft)
B - Since is the first order they're placing its best to do everything extremely by the book in order to set client expectations for future orders.

The director and his lackey couldn't understand and kept asking how to get around that, but I wouldn't budge which frustrated them, but eventually they relented.

Fastforward to today, there is a complication with the shipment. DG paperwork is incorrect and the packaging is completely wrong. I'm not even sure the shipper is really trained to do what their doing. In any case we can't fly it now. Director is like "can we charter it" and I shit that down. In order to charter it it needs to be to Cargo Aircraft standards of packaging, which it's not.

I tell the director this, and he's like "let me see what our charter manager says on this subject". The charter manager does so anyway because a director told him to do it. Fortunately they couldn't reach the client to get approval for the charter quote so they decided to drive it instead.

This isn't the first time that I pushed back on a stupid request from a director, and I'm worried that I'm starting to be seen as too dogmatic and difficult. But in my mind, I feel I'm just trying to protect the company. I don't want to go along with something just because some dumbass upper manager who doesn't know what he's doing wants it a certain way. But at the end the day, it's their show I guess. I just don't want to be put on a list when layoff time comes around.

 

[nush]

I’ve been there, getting criticism for doing the job they hired you to do correctly. But if you don’t do it correctly, you’ll get the criticism for not doing the job correctly. It’s better to be fired for doing your job right, especially with hazmat than to be the one thrown under the bus if people get killed/hurt.

 

[Scotty W]

You are in the right

 

[NecrosaroIII]

You are in the right

Being right doesn't keep you employed

 

[Meicyn]

Trust me, you made the right call. If anything goes wrong, it’s your ass they will hang out to dry. Guaranteed.

I was in a situation about a year ago where about 250ish people were without power. Some power lines underground required maintenance. Workers wanted to make entry into a confined space, but their multigas meter wasn’t calibrated.

I was asked to grant them access. I refused. Higher ranking folks insisted I should let them because the risk was what they deemed to be low. I still refused. So the work didn’t happen that day. Naturally, I was not very popular at that moment.

Seven hours later, the space was flooded with wastewater, refuse and all sorts of fun gases, all of which was not anticipated.

Rules are annoying most of the time, but cutting corners is how you have moments like the railway accident in East Palestine, Ohio.

Again, you made the right choice.

 

[CGNoire]

All you can do is continue to make decisions that align with your personal ethics and perform your job to tue best of your ability. If that means some times you cause friction then so be it.

 

[funkygunther]

Why didn't you check with the charter manager? Surely they're the expert on what can be flown or not

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Why didn't you check with the charter manager? Surely they're the expert on what can be flown or not

His job is just pricing and sourcing. And in any case, he didn't want to rock the boat and "was just doing what he was told"

 

[Scotty W]

Being right doesn't keep you employed

You can sue if they ask you to break the law

 

[Daneel Elijah]

You can sue if they ask you to break the law

This is the nuclear option. Only to take in last resort.

Good luck OP and as others have said you did the right thing. Better be safe than sorry. When I saw your title I was thinking that you were admitting to some kind of mistake. But doing your job is not that. I hope that it was just a misunderstanding and that in the future your fears will fade away.

 

[Nitty_Grimes]

Just think of the tribunal you could take them to if they broke the law trying to get things through on the sly and they sacked you because of it.

I'm not a lawyer but I think they would be fighting themselves to represent you.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

The problem of bending in work environments to be friendlier/accomodating is that it tends to have unintended consequences and dealing with those unscathed required a lot of skill and luck.

My previous superior, over a number of years, bent. It eventually endangered the entire department and it almost got shitcanned.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN!

Keep a record of all the actions you take when dealing with difficult coworkers and managers. Write down the date, your actions, and which people impeded your job and how.

 

[TheHighFlyingBirds]

Being right doesn't keep you employed

Doing the right thing as you are doing, will protect you (and others). If you did bypass procedures and something happened you will be blamed, and you will feel guilty as you could have helped to prevent it.

Im assuming you are US based so will be subject to OSHA. If they are like the UKs HSE, you do not want to be the subject of their investigations if something did happen.

As a safety consultant of 15 yrs working in high hazard industries (mainly nuclear), I will say do not bypass procedures. A lot of accidents happen due to procedures not being followed, and subsequent investigations look for the root cause and will find the reason.

If you have concerns about anyone trying to make you bypass procedures go to someone above them. As its directors putting pressure on you in your case, go to the H&S director (if you have one) or the MD and state your case. The MD usually has to put their name to the companies safety case / rules and are duty bound to protect their staff and the public, and as such they are liable for serious breaches. If they don't support you, find another company who do take it seriously. This bit above is based on UK experience, so might be slightly different in your country.

Agee with Jinzo Prime , record everything, as it could be useful if something happens (and also to support your arguement when you take it to more senior persons).

Good luck.

 

[ahtlas7]

If management doesn’t care about safety at least you do and If necessary make an anonymous call to the regulator.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Being right doesn't keep you employed

In hazmat environment dealing with critical safety equipment is should. Don't cut corners, you can find a different job but if you make a mistake and shit kits the fan you can be sure the company will throw you under the bus.

 

[Salz01]

Being right doesn't keep you employed

Hopefully you documented all this in a journal. So if you get laid off, at least you can show your next potential employer the steps you took. Or at the very least your hr department.

 

[Tams]

Do it properly, first time client or not.

You'll be morally alright that way, and not liable legally if something goes wrong.

You absolutely should go to someone higher at the company hierarchy if you can. If they act dumb, you can then either go higher or emphasise that the blame will land on them.

And demand everything is recorded somewhere. It could save your arse if something goes wrong, either the sale or management trying to say you're an obstruction.

'You signed off on it' basically.

 

[Tams]

Being right doesn't keep you employed

There are courts of arbitration for that, and almost always an employer in the field looking for reliable and trustworthy employees.

 

[Hot5pur]

I have this situations at work all the time, there are a few ways of going about it:
1) Push back against managements politely and give them your point, preferably in writing (email) as you are going about things in the correct way
2) If the director is being difficult, make the situation more public (within the company) by roping in other colleagues and other managers, if you can rope in your manager's supervisor even better, but this is a risky move as it will build resentment
3) Challenge other people's point of view by asking hard questions. "Are you comfortable with not following procedure in this case?". "What are the risks with not going by the book?". Ideally you can get these replies in writing. If not, you can have a conversation and write a summary of it by email to the people involved and a few other colleagues so you have a record and people can corroborate it

Figure out if there are decent people in your company. If the management is rotten to the core all the way up the chain, you may not be happy working there long term. Workplaces need employees who will do the right thing and have integrity. If corners need to be cut this has to be communicated and agreed upon, especially with all involved. Usually cutting corners is a sign of bad management, but in the rare case emergencies do happen and it's best to be honest. Bad management is the single most damaging thing in companies I've worked in, and it's not unreasonable to want to protect your company and other people, as well as the relationship with the client.
This is a touchy subject for me because I've seen too much suffering and frustration because of incompetent mangers that have no business being in their positions - arrogant, neglectful, self serving, sometimes malicious. If you want to build a good career, work for people who have integrity and you can respect.

 

[AlteredForms]

Director is like "can we charter it" and I shit that down.

 

[jason10mm]

It's part of managements job to push things to be done faster or cheaper. It's part of YOUR job to say no and have the regs, codes, policies, and whatnot to back it up and suggest alternative courses of action to help the company succeed but still be safe, ethical, and legal.

If they fire you for "doing the right thing" but you still worked to get the job done and you acted like a professional, then thank your stars cause that company is gonna be front page of a major investigation, lawsuit, or disaster soon enough.

 

[ReBurn]

Who is going to get fired (or worse) If something goes wrong after the director tells you to cut corners and you do it? You? Or the director?

The trick is to make sure that there is a paper trail of your objections and the director telling you to bypass policy. Especially if your role is a compliance role and a director of the company directs you to skirt compliance rules. "Hey, the regs say this and you want me to do this instead, is that right?" via email and print hard copies of the responses. You might still get hit with the blame but it bolsters your case for damages in the wrongful termination lawsuit.

 

[Facism]

Deserve a raise tbh.

And to watch that director get pegged by the customer for trying to fuck about with the contract.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

I'm glad to see the responses here. OP, you sound like a good employee, and if people think you're difficult--good. Doing things the right way often IS harder.

 

[Blade2.0]

I work for a logistics company. I'm our senior hazmat specialist.

We have a major new client and their very first order was a hazmat shipment. One of the directors of the company wanted us to cut some corners to get the ball rolling but insisted in following the processes by the book because
A- The shipper has certain responsibilities and we need to ensure they're properly conducted before risking our IAC(sort of a license to transport cargo on passenger aircraft)
B - Since is the first order they're placing its best to do everything extremely by the book in order to set client expectations for future orders.

The director and his lackey couldn't understand and kept asking how to get around that, but I wouldn't budge which frustrated them, but eventually they relented.

Fastforward to today, there is a complication with the shipment. DG paperwork is incorrect and the packaging is completely wrong. I'm not even sure the shipper is really trained to do what their doing. In any case we can't fly it now. Director is like "can we charter it" and I shit that down. In order to charter it it needs to be to Cargo Aircraft standards of packaging, which it's not.

I tell the director this, and he's like "let me see what our charter manager says on this subject". The charter manager does so anyway because a director told him to do it. Fortunately they couldn't reach the client to get approval for the charter quote so they decided to drive it instead.

This isn't the first time that I pushed back on a stupid request from a director, and I'm worried that I'm starting to be seen as too dogmatic and difficult. But in my mind, I feel I'm just trying to protect the company. I don't want to go along with something just because some dumbass upper manager who doesn't know what he's doing wants it a certain way. But at the end the day, it's their show I guess. I just don't want to be put on a list when layoff time comes around.

And this is why we have regulations in the first place. Shit like this is what causes accidents that have irreversible consequences.

 

[Neolombax]

You're doing the right thing my man.

 

[bitbydeath]

You’re doing the right thing, if you’re worried then go speak with the director directly. They obviously don’t know and need all the guidance they can get.

 

[AJUMP23]

You have to explain to your director why you are there and what happens if you don’t follow the rules you were hired to follow.

 

[AJUMP23]

And another point if you are being asked to violate rules you need to document everything.

 

[Liamario]

Being right doesn't keep you employed

But it might keep you out of prison.

 

[Locutus]

But it might keep you out of prison.

There isn’t anything in his story that says he was being asked to break the law.

 

[Locutus]

There is a lot of really bad career advice in this thread.

Your story is unclear on whether your superior was trying to get you to break the law. Don’t break the law for a company and don’t do anything unethical.

That said, your job is to implement your superior’s requests. If he is asking you to skirt some internal policies to get a shipment out on an expedited basis, do it. Document the fact that you communicated that the request violated normal policies. If the supervisor says to proceed, do it.

People get all sanctimonious about standing firm in company rules. I’m not sure what you situation is, but it is always best to be the person who finds a way to perform your boss’s task. Simply refusing is very rarely the best option.

However, like I said at the start, you should stand firm if the request is illegal or unethical.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

There is a lot of really bad career advice in this thread.

Your story is unclear on whether your superior was trying to get you to break the law. Don’t break the law for a company and don’t do anything unethical.

That said, your job is to implement your superior’s requests. If he is asking you to skirt some internal policies to get a shipment out on an expedited basis, do it. Document the fact that you communicated that the request violated normal policies. If the supervisor says to proceed, do it.

People get all sanctimonious about standing firm in company rules. I’m not sure what you situation is, but it is always best to be the person who finds a way to perform your boss’s task. Simply refusing is very rarely the best option.

However, like I said at the start, you should stand firm if the request is illegal or unethical.

You're not wrong. I wasn't being asked to break any regulations, just skip some procedures. But the procedures I was being asked to skip were ones that were implemented so that we wouldn't find ourselves inadvertently breaking regulations. Stop gaps perse.

Also worth clarifying: I don't have a supervisor. My boss is the Director of Operations. The person I'm having trouble with is the Director of Strategy.

There isn't anyone I can really talk to ablut double checking the regulations, because I'm the person that people come to know the regulations. I suppose I could tell the Ops Director ablut the Strategy Director, but that's a sideways situation

 

[wipeout364]

Sounds like a perfect set up; if things go well the Director is the star of the show, if things go south you are the star, just not in the way you are going to enjoy.

 

[ANDS]

This isn't the first time that I pushed back on a stupid request from a director, and I'm worried that I'm starting to be seen as too dogmatic and difficult. But in my mind, I feel I'm just trying to protect the company. I don't want to go along with something just because some dumbass upper manager who doesn't know what he's doing wants it a certain way. But at the end the day, it's their show I guess. I just don't want to be put on a list when layoff time comes around.

Unless you work for complete morons and are yourself keeping track of things like this. . .I wouldn't be worried. I also deal with "corner cutting" like this in my job (except our "corner cutting" occurs because folks are afraid of the optics of certain decisions); all I do is nod my head after advising all parties on the outcomes of going any direction. At the end of the day, if you've done everything in your power to keep things above board, when they don't your goose isn't cooked because you did what you were required to do.

 

[Kamina]

What you are doing is certainly correct, however, the best option in my opinion would be to continue to tell the director when something should not be done in a certain way, while letting him have the final decision through a formal written order to you and your boss, so you have proof that it was a management decision if things go south.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Physically demanding jobs can be just as hard as office jobs, one requires strength, then the other takes time, finding brain power, unique skills like typing and communicating.

 

[Reallink]

Was there actually any real or plausible risk/danger caused by this shipment having the wrong papers/packaging that couldn't have been solved by a email/call to the pilot and receiving end? Or are you just being one of those mindless drone beurocrats rejecting a form cause it was penned in the wrong color ink? If the latter, I'd have already fired you if I was this director.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Was there actually any real or plausible risk/danger caused by this shipment having the wrong papers/packaging that couldn't have been solved by a email/call to the pilot and receiving end? Or are you just being one of those mindless drone beurocrats rejecting a form cause it was penned in the wrong color ink? If the latter, I'd have already fired you if I was this director.

The form in question called a Shipper's Declaration of Dangerous Goods. You need several copies of the declaration, along with an original copy signed by the person who prepared the packaging in order to tender it. It's a hard requirement when tendering to an airline. Again, the original copy always needs to be with the cargo and can't be emailed.

Regarding packaging - There is 100% a risk of incident with a hazmat shipment not being packaged properly. And the airline can't modify the packaging. The only one who can modify it is either the DG specialist who packaged it at the shipper, or we can take it to a DG packing company, which typically takes 3-4 business days for them to repack.

Note - Undeclared dangerous goods is the leading cause of dangerous goods related incidents for airlines.

https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/what_is_hazmat/undeclared_hazmat#:~:text=An%20%22undeclared%22%20dangerous%20good%20is,%2C%20or%20other%20hazard%20communication).

Fines for violations are up to $75,000 / violation and the loss of our IAC.

 

[BossLackey]

WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN!

Keep a record of all the actions you take when dealing with difficult coworkers and managers. Write down the date, your actions, and which people impeded your job and how.

This times a fucking THOUSAND.

You did good, OP.

 

[cash_longfellow]

Leave and find someone who will appreciate your expertise and your opinions. Life is too short to work for incompetence. If you stay, I agree with a lot of the others here, document literally everything.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

And I just got chewed out by my boss on this. "This is a big opportunity"

 

[Puscifer]

Leave and find someone who will appreciate your expertise and your opinions. Life is too short to work for incompetence. If you stay, I agree with a lot of the others here, document literally everything.

Listen to this guy. I work for a telecommunications company that's pissing me off, they bought 4 different companies and haven't done shit to merge them from an IT front. I can't believe the amount of horseshit I'm dealing with everyday, including trying to explain to someone why our IDS system keeps blocking your excel sheet with social security numbers. No standards at all, it blows my mind how stupid private companies can be when they want to get shit done and how so much information ends up on Google and the dark web, literally no one gives a shit

 

[Reallink]

The form in question called a Shipper's Declaration of Dangerous Goods. You need several copies of the declaration, along with an original copy signed by the person who prepared the packaging in order to tender it. It's a hard requirement when tendering to an airline. Again, the original copy always needs to be with the cargo and can't be emailed.

Regarding packaging - There is 100% a risk of incident with a hazmat shipment not being packaged properly. And the airline can't modify the packaging. The only one who can modify it is either the DG specialist who packaged it at the shipper, or we can take it to a DG packing company, which typically takes 3-4 business days for them to repack.

Note - Undeclared dangerous goods is the leading cause of dangerous goods related incidents for airlines.

https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/what_is_hazmat/undeclared_hazmat#:~:text=An%20%22undeclared%22%20dangerous%20good%20is,%2C%20or%20other%20hazard%20communication).

Fines for violations are up to $75,000 / violation and the loss of our IAC.

I'm assuming your company had records and copies of the declaration, but perhaps not the ink signed original attached to the actual cargo? Was this "wrong" packaging actually a hazard (i.e. flammable instead of flame retardant), or was it something immaterial like the label being on the wrong corner?

 

[NecrosaroIII]

I'm assuming your company had records and copies of the declaration, but perhaps not the ink signed original attached to the actual cargo? Was this "wrong" packaging actually a hazard (i.e. flammable instead of flame retardant), or was it something immaterial like the label being on the wrong corner?

The packaging wasn't the right type of packaging for the class of hazmat. It was basically a plastic tub with no lid.

Also the declaration was filled out incorrectly when we did finally receive it

 

[diffusionx]

I'd rather get fired doing things the right way than work at a company that actively rewards doing things the wrong way. I also think on some level if that's the company then it will come back to bite them at some point and do you really want to be part of that.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

And now the retaliation begins. Suddenly my shift is changing.

 

[Reallink]

The packaging wasn't the right type of packaging for the class of hazmat. It was basically a plastic tub with no lid.

Also the declaration was filled out incorrectly when we did finally receive it

Hopefully you emphasized to this director that it was the wrong class of container, and pointed out you were rejecting it cause signing off on it would likely nullify your company's liability coverage should something go wrong. That said, if the actual risk was effectively zero and this was a big customer you were botching, they will probably start looking for someone who's willing to make sensible concessions and compromises. Decision making roles typically demand a healthy application of common sense and reasonable risk assessment, the real world isn't black and white,

 

[cash_longfellow]

Listen to this guy. I work for a telecommunications company that's pissing me off, they bought 4 different companies and haven't done shit to merge them from an IT front. I can't believe the amount of horseshit I'm dealing with everyday, including trying to explain to someone why our IDS system keeps blocking your excel sheet with social security numbers. No standards at all, it blows my mind how stupid private companies can be when they want to get shit done and how so much information ends up on Google and the dark web, literally no one gives a shit

Thank you! I think too often people get comfortable in their job and don’t realize that their quality of life could be so much better somewhere else.