Honestly just a green and yellow UFC style sports bra + shorts combo would have been rad.
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If fighting games want to be mainstream esports, they need less fanservice
- Thread starter DrArchon
- Start date
Honestly just a green and yellow UFC style sports bra + shorts combo would have been rad.
yukimeans_snow
Member
I don't like the use of the word "need" in the OP
Capcom doesn't "need" to do anything except make a competent fighting game, which it did with SFV. They did the job with the most minimal effort possible, but that's to be discussed in another topic.
This issue will be discussed every year, and forgotten about in a few weeks, because EVO and ESPN will remind you guys "oh right, this is a problem, I need to see if other people agree with me."
If fighting game devs begin to strive for mainstream esports, consider me out of the game forever. Though if we absolutely needed fighting games in mainstream esports, it should be one game only. Leave the rest be please.
Capcom doesn't "need" to do anything except make a competent fighting game, which it did with SFV. They did the job with the most minimal effort possible, but that's to be discussed in another topic.
This issue will be discussed every year, and forgotten about in a few weeks, because EVO and ESPN will remind you guys "oh right, this is a problem, I need to see if other people agree with me."
If fighting game devs begin to strive for mainstream esports, consider me out of the game forever. Though if we absolutely needed fighting games in mainstream esports, it should be one game only. Leave the rest be please.
I think our Gaffers here who like sexy designs can at least admit that the "sexualizing wand" Japanese developers use, is not very effective on men.
Real Turkish oil wrestling:
Hakan:
Like, I love Hakan, but it's clear the designers weren't going for "porn parody" or "sexy halloween costume". El Fuerte looks like a normal luchador, Ryu and Ken look like normal karate fighters, Balrog is actually never shirtless unlike actual boxers, Sagat and Adon in line with real muay thai fighters - you get the point. It's the girls the ones who have to be exponentially more revealing and under no circumstances mimic actual fighting gear, because that'd be boring and puritan.
Real Turkish oil wrestling:
Hakan:
Like, I love Hakan, but it's clear the designers weren't going for "porn parody" or "sexy halloween costume". El Fuerte looks like a normal luchador, Ryu and Ken look like normal karate fighters, Balrog is actually never shirtless unlike actual boxers, Sagat and Adon in line with real muay thai fighters - you get the point. It's the girls the ones who have to be exponentially more revealing and under no circumstances mimic actual fighting gear, because that'd be boring and puritan.
This has nothing to do with the competence of a fighting game nor the mechanics itself. It literally is all about the window dressing.
Enforcing a rule to use "TV-appropriate" costumes will turn you off of fighting? Really? What if game devs at some point decide to do away with all risqué clothing? Would you do the same?
Re: your contention with the word "need," the title is an "if they want..." statement as part of the editorial take. Any changes they're proposing have nothing to do with the substance of the game design. I think you're falling into a rhetorical device that's a deflection more than a real reply, but more importantly, it's not a change that's mutually exclusive to the existing sensibilities. The prevalent suggestion is just having the option of a set of costumes that are broadcast-friendly, and having those available for main-stage hosting (which is obviously down to the preference of the venue).
yukimeans_snow
Member
Don't say it's not effective on men like it's a fact. That is literally your opinion. All males in the new SF art style are very muscular and not "normal" at all. There's even a shirtless/bearded alt for Ryu in SFV in which people nicknamed "Hot Ryu." Both Ryu and Akuma have topless alts in SFIV. Akuma can also go topless in between rounds in SFV if you do a special input. That's totally unnecessary, but it's there.
Nose Master
Member
They should at least have an option for it, yeah. Japan, though.
My post went more towards your defending of those posts criticizing how ugly was that battle costume, at no point the quouted comments they put implied that they wanted more skin (maybe they wanted)
If we want to go the route of "real clothing" for laura, you can have her wearing some brazilian jiu jitsu gi's or some hoodie with training pants
There's a reason why Hot Ryu is a thing and not Hot Zangief - walls of muscles are not conventionally attractive like all the female characters are conventionally attractive. So lol if you think, say, El Fuerte was designed as a sexy character because he's very muscular. Also, Hot Ryu? He was literally a happy accident and Capcom literally said "wut, we didn't intend to make him hot". Shirtless male fighters is not "porn parody / sexy halloween costume" stuff - Boxing, MMA, kick boxing, Turkish oil wrestling, a lot of these disciplines are performed shirtless.
And, in case you didn't notice, Akuma is impossibly hideous, lol (unlike females, pretty much all males in SFV have horrible faces, even the canonically handsome Ken and Vega [who got a new shirt in this game!]).
Except it was being broadcast on a kid network.
This, not the shitty Kohl's workout clothes. I figured they'd give her a gi costume and then they gave her some half-gi titty mess...
When I practiced karate when I was younger, I basically dressed like Makoto.
butIguessIwasapuritanamirite
Anyway, serious talk, this discussion goes nowhere, so I think this is the last thing I'll say in this thread.
I understand that people want their sexy women because it's fun for them, because devs choose to cater to them because their main target is the male audience, okay, I get that. I know that fact for years.
Personally, I just wish there were more female characters that are not sexualized. So I'm not talking about deleting "fanserviced" characters or stopping fanservice, it wouldn't be smart given that there is a market for it, but I'm talking about creating more female characters that are not designed to be sexualized (Makoto again is an example). For me and for others who feel this way, it would be nice. Now, I mean, devs do whatever they want, fine. They choose. That won't prevent me from buying, playing and enjoying their games, but that won't prevent me from being annoyed by some female characters' designs. So some people can keep taunting with their "ha u American Puritan" and all (I'm not even American, I'm French teehee), but that's basically what I feel about it.
butIguessIwasapuritanamirite
Anyway, serious talk, this discussion goes nowhere, so I think this is the last thing I'll say in this thread.
I understand that people want their sexy women because it's fun for them, because devs choose to cater to them because their main target is the male audience, okay, I get that. I know that fact for years.
Personally, I just wish there were more female characters that are not sexualized. So I'm not talking about deleting "fanserviced" characters or stopping fanservice, it wouldn't be smart given that there is a market for it, but I'm talking about creating more female characters that are not designed to be sexualized (Makoto again is an example). For me and for others who feel this way, it would be nice. Now, I mean, devs do whatever they want, fine. They choose. That won't prevent me from buying, playing and enjoying their games, but that won't prevent me from being annoyed by some female characters' designs. So some people can keep taunting with their "ha u American Puritan" and all (I'm not even American, I'm French teehee), but that's basically what I feel about it.
This seems really odd. I was under the impression that people wanted SFV to be more mainstream because that meant more ad revenue, which meant better sponsors, which meant more money for the players. SFV pros (like all fighting game pros) make next to nothing compared to professional FPS and MOBA players, and that's a huge shame because they're incredibly talented individuals.
If I had it my way, we'd see EVO with $20 million pot bonuses just like The International, but seeing as the player base isn't big enough to crowdfund pot bonuses of that size, we need to rely on sponsors, and the only way to get that is to get mainstream.
100% this (except I did taekwondo, not karate - but you bet I was fully clothed!). And I'm not American eitherWhen I practiced karate when I was younger, I basically dressed like Makoto.
butIguessIwasapuritanamirite
Anyway, serious talk, this discussion goes nowhere, so I think this is the last thing I'll say in this thread.
I understand that people want their sexy women because it's fun for them, because devs choose to cater to them because their main target is the male audience, okay, I get that. I know that fact for years.
Personally, I just wish there were more female characters that are not sexualized. So I'm not talking about deleting "fanserviced" characters or stopping fanservice, it wouldn't be smart given that there is a market for it, but I'm talking about creating more female characters that are not designed to be sexualized (Makoto again is an example). For me and for others who feel this way, it would be nice. Now, I mean, devs do whatever they want, fine. They choose. That won't prevent me from buying, playing and enjoying their games, but that won't prevent me from being annoyed by some female characters' designs. So some people can keep taunting with their "ha u American Puritan" and all (I'm not even American, I'm French teehee), but that's basically what I feel about it.
Capcom didn't give a crap about making the only canonically attractive men handsome in SFV. This is how much they care about sex appeal in their male designs, lol.
I appreciate the clarification. It's preferable to some of the less...eloquent responses I saw. My point was as much about that being the pattern of that outfit that would work for a fighter. There's tons of opportunity for colorblocking and/or accessorizing in addition. The other responses came across like someone seeing a shirt in a color they don't like, so they balk at how hideous the shirt is. There's probably more depth behind it, but I got an anime picture with a middle-school hand joke, someone making fun of non-name brand clothing, and a Simpsons joke.
I like it when people explain in words. For the premise in OP, a set of normal workout clothes is pretty much the ideal. Hence my post.
When I practiced karate when I was younger, I basically dressed like Makoto.
butIguessIwasapuritanamirite
Anyway, serious talk, this discussion goes nowhere, so I think this is the last thing I'll say in this thread.
I understand that people want their sexy women because it's fun for them, because devs choose to cater to them because their main target is the male audience, okay, I get that. I know that fact for years.
Personally, I just wish there were more female characters that are not sexualized. So I'm not talking about deleting "fanserviced" characters or stopping fanservice, it wouldn't be smart given that there is a market for it, but I'm talking about creating more female characters that are not designed to be sexualized (Makoto again is an example). For me and for others who feel this way, it would be nice. Now, I mean, devs do whatever they want, fine. They choose. That won't prevent me from buying, playing and enjoying their games, but that won't prevent me from being annoyed by some female characters' designs. So some people can keep taunting with their "ha u American Puritan" and all (I'm not even American, I'm French teehee), but that's basically what I feel about it.
I feel there's another discussion to have about Makoto, and I'm not entirely sure how to frame it.
I love the character, she was one of my go to's for SFIII, but I always got the impression the devs were making a social statement about the character.
I recall her being mistaken for a boy a lot and getting pissed off about it. Other characters mention her lack of fashion sense... And then She has the hilarious super that starts off with a big crotch punch.
Was this a subtle jab from the devs?
(i.e. if you dress appropriately for fighting as a girl, and don't leave your butt hanging out for the male gaze, you're going to get mistaken for a boy)
Agreed OP. And I'd even say it's beyond just fighting games.
I hadn't played a Fire Emblem game in probably a decade and booted up heroes and when I saw the designs I was very confused at the art direction the series has gone.
It's like we've matured as an industry and this part of it is a remaining remnant of when the industry was still prodominently for male nerds in the 90s. Hopefully it slowly dies out though I guess tbh I would've assumed it would've a long time ago. Oh well.
I hadn't played a Fire Emblem game in probably a decade and booted up heroes and when I saw the designs I was very confused at the art direction the series has gone.
It's like we've matured as an industry and this part of it is a remaining remnant of when the industry was still prodominently for male nerds in the 90s. Hopefully it slowly dies out though I guess tbh I would've assumed it would've a long time ago. Oh well.
LordKasual
Banned
The women are sexualized
The men are giant power fantasies
Everyone is fitter than you and your significant other
I don't wanna play a fighting game full of normal ass people, dressed in normal ass clothes, who the fuck would buy that boring crap
I need chicks as ridiculous as Laura, classy as Karin, i need guys as fucking ripped as Ed, fresh as Urien, testosterone pumped as Ryu
The little schoolgirls can go kick rocks somewhere though, unless they're wise enough to make them 6 feet of sexy like Lili from Tekken, in which case who can even complain about that
The men are giant power fantasies
Everyone is fitter than you and your significant other
I don't wanna play a fighting game full of normal ass people, dressed in normal ass clothes, who the fuck would buy that boring crap
I need chicks as ridiculous as Laura, classy as Karin, i need guys as fucking ripped as Ed, fresh as Urien, testosterone pumped as Ryu
The little schoolgirls can go kick rocks somewhere though, unless they're wise enough to make them 6 feet of sexy like Lili from Tekken, in which case who can even complain about that
Is it a problem if it's an optional outfit for the same base design that broadcast tournament venues can use?
A ton of Street Fighter designs mimic very closely the actual gear used in the real disciplines. Do you hate those designs?
Also, how come non-sexual means "normal ass clothes"?
That's much taller than she actually is, and I recall her being at least somewhat divisive among Western players since her debut in T5
R (not to the same extent as characters with whom her appeal tends to overlap, such as Marie Rose in DoA, never mind the seething hatred that Ingrid of CFE/CFJ typically inspires, but still not exactly universally beloved).I asked a similar question on r/StreetFighter to gauge their opinions, if you want to see them.
Here's the Strawpoll I did, too.
Here's the Strawpoll I did, too.
Did you...
Did you not consider the discrepancy that you literally just wrote down?
"The women are sexualized"
"The men are giant power fantasies"
Okay, now were are my sexualized men and giant power fantasy women? One of the former and one of the latter is not enough to make everything suddenly not sexist, btw.
Even League of Legends manages to have guys like Taric and Ezreal in addition to ladies like Illaoi and Rek'Sai. What's Capcom's excuse? They can't even make Vega a proper bishie and screwed up Ken's face! Where's the equality here?
I can sympathize with the desire to have a not-boring cast, but they can damn well make a not-boring cast while also not giving all the women the exact same sexualized body type and giving us some men who aren't just hulked-out beefcakes. Actually, that would make things LESS boring, wouldn't you think? More variety, right? RIGHT?
Sigh.
I think I'm going mad from reading this thread.
I thought some of the comments here were gross.
Wow. D:
Some of the ones in that link are on a different level.
Completely unsurprising. People are already pretty defensive here on Gaf, and Gaf's well known for being more liberal/progressive leaning than other sites like Reddit.
Wish more people would recognize that it's not equal opportunity sexiness on display in SFV. There's way more sexy women than men there. Hot Ryu was a nice accident by all accounts. Ken looks hideous, and Vega looks like a psychopath. Meanwhile the only female character on the base roster without really embarrassing camera angles is Karin.
This is why I stopped posting in gaming subreddits. I now just lurk for information and make very occasional comments that have nothing to do with this stuff.
It's so bad that you're practically guaranteed to get a downvote brigade every time you even posit the idea that sexiness =/= good. And guys so often wonder why the gaming sphere is such a fucking sausagefest...
I hope you didn't mistake a collection of animated polygons for sentient beings with actual agency.
Just a thing, I wanted to post about this earlier since It's kinda funny because:
http://kotaku.com/after-complaints-street-fighters-cammy-looks-kinda-dif-1727915517
So they could fix Cammy's face so she can look cuter, but they cannot do it with Ken even if many people complain about it. Heh.
That's why the talk about letting women design characters at the end is sadly irrelevant. Designing a character is not an art of freedom, is just creating a product to sell to customers. A woman will still have to design a character aimed to sell at certain customers, and we know what sells in Japan right now.
Any time I see someone deflect character design criticism by saying the artist is a member of the character's gender/race/ethnicity, it's immediately clear how little they're bringing to the exchange (unless there's some specific rationale that the artist themself gave that's part of the point).
The precedent for people (in and out of media) "acting against" a group they're more broadly a part of is so well-known, it's not even a counterpoint.
The precedent for people (in and out of media) "acting against" a group they're more broadly a part of is so well-known, it's not even a counterpoint.
Um nobody's doing that. We're talking about representation of sex/gender for real life women.
If I'm playing Tekken with my girlfriend and we want to pick characters that represent our race and gender we have that option - rad.
I'm an Arab man so I get to play as this bad ass motherfucker right here:
Sick.
She's a Filipino woman, so she gets...
A fair skinned girl with giant tits and a dancer outfit in the flag colors! Nice!!
Most of the time I see that argument pop up after some claimed that only men would design something like this.
For that specific setup, it's worth bringing up (meaning you're right), but more often I think the implicit question/criticism is "who is this being made for" (meaning why did we get this result) more than "who made this design." The criticism "only men would design something like this" is a rickety line if thinking when who makes something doesn't matter in the abstract.
But if you think about it, would you say it's out of character for her to have awful taste in clothes tho?
Persona fans.
Theonik
Member
I was being facetious replying to this post:
But really anyone who makes that point. It's different to frame the argument around wanting more options which people are fine in supporting and developers have been getting better at supporting, and another to argue about the morality behind designs pushing your taste as virtuous.
Persona 5 uniforms are too stylish to be real school uniforms and too diverse to be 'uniforms' of any sort though.
It's the counterpoint to that really.
Pretty much - I could tolerate fanservice a lot more if manservice was more prevalent.
Street Fighter V is especially bad at this.
The new male isn't just unattractive, he's grotesque.
And yet, all of the female characters look like they're modeled for porn.
yurinka
Member
The problem is not with the games or "fanservice", and devs shouldn't censor them.
If there is a problem here is the hypocrite, iliterate, puritanist, sjw or artless people and media who see a problem in showing certain parts of a body ask them to change the costume.
Seems that these people never have been in a museum and don't have any fucking idea about art.
Let the artists and players to be free do whatever they want, they aren't hurting anybody.
Capcom had many female artist working on their games, like the great Kinu Nishimura.
http://capcom.wikia.com/wiki/Kinu_Nishimura
Some male and female artists prefer to draw characters like this. They just draw what they think is ok according to their beauty ideals. Which is ok.
Outside Capcom she did stuff like Code of Princess:
Or 999:
If there is a problem here is the hypocrite, iliterate, puritanist, sjw or artless people and media who see a problem in showing certain parts of a body ask them to change the costume.
Seems that these people never have been in a museum and don't have any fucking idea about art.
Let the artists and players to be free do whatever they want, they aren't hurting anybody.
Capcom had many female artist working on their games, like the great Kinu Nishimura.
http://capcom.wikia.com/wiki/Kinu_Nishimura
Some male and female artists prefer to draw characters like this. They just draw what they think is ok according to their beauty ideals. Which is ok.
Outside Capcom she did stuff like Code of Princess:
Or 999:
MagnetoWasRight
Member
Persona, the game with the pussy zipper? (I do love Persona though.)
Lol
lmao here we go again with the art and freedom and female designers.
So much freedom for art I can't handle it.
I assumed it was a joke post? The Nishimura bit cemented it (even though she's legit one of the most talented artists in the industry).
She looks like a Kangaroo wearing human clothes to me
lol
lol the fuck do I know anymore. It's hard to tell nowadays but sorry if it was a joke.
Im just saying P4A have a bunch of normal clothes fighters, i do know some of them have outlandish costumes (im completely baffled at Yukari's sentai one for example)
MagnetoWasRight
Member
No fan service here!
