CoD stays. That game sells millions every year for its gameplay.
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If you value game mechanics most of all, do you feel the industry is passing you by?
- Thread starter goldenpp72
- Start date
KyanMehwulfe
Member
My second and third most games of this generation are MGS V and Driveclub, and I think those are basically mechanics-driven experiences.
Driveclub ... maybe not. Perhaps less so as it's also an audio-video thing and content thing (so many licensed cars), and also it's kinda feature-driven, too. (e.g. Challenges). But it's really all rooted in the core driving mechanics being just a satisfying blend of arcade with a touch of sim.
But MGS V, definitely... pure mechanics. It's not really light on story per se (it has like 3-4 hours of cutscenes, which is actually on par with most MGS games) but they're obviously very broken up. And it's not really heavy on content either. Most of the experience is basically where your creativity meets the game's mechanics.
So, if 1 maybe 2 of the most played games are mechanics-based experiences, I'd say I'm satisfied in that regard. Even my most played game, GTA V.... it's obviously more founded in world design and content (huge selection of cars and customization), but really, I think what keeps me coming back is that GTA V is just a lot of fun to drive. The more arcade feel of cars in the game just make them fun to try and mess around with. The NPC AI is fun. The random cop chase AI is fun. There's a sort of core driving-and-crashing mechanic that makes it a fun game to mess around with daily. It's still clearly more of a content-founded experience but Rockstar made clear mechanics changes over IV attempting to make the control more fun. The shooting also has some subtle changes, like removing the momentum weight (the turning circle inertia) when aiming so that if you do a half-aim, you can spin and strafe with 1:1 control to input (which oddly people rarely seem to use or mention... though I guess half-pressing Aim takes a lot of getting used to).
Driveclub ... maybe not. Perhaps less so as it's also an audio-video thing and content thing (so many licensed cars), and also it's kinda feature-driven, too. (e.g. Challenges). But it's really all rooted in the core driving mechanics being just a satisfying blend of arcade with a touch of sim.
But MGS V, definitely... pure mechanics. It's not really light on story per se (it has like 3-4 hours of cutscenes, which is actually on par with most MGS games) but they're obviously very broken up. And it's not really heavy on content either. Most of the experience is basically where your creativity meets the game's mechanics.
So, if 1 maybe 2 of the most played games are mechanics-based experiences, I'd say I'm satisfied in that regard. Even my most played game, GTA V.... it's obviously more founded in world design and content (huge selection of cars and customization), but really, I think what keeps me coming back is that GTA V is just a lot of fun to drive. The more arcade feel of cars in the game just make them fun to try and mess around with. The NPC AI is fun. The random cop chase AI is fun. There's a sort of core driving-and-crashing mechanic that makes it a fun game to mess around with daily. It's still clearly more of a content-founded experience but Rockstar made clear mechanics changes over IV attempting to make the control more fun. The shooting also has some subtle changes, like removing the momentum weight (the turning circle inertia) when aiming so that if you do a half-aim, you can spin and strafe with 1:1 control to input (which oddly people rarely seem to use or mention... though I guess half-pressing Aim takes a lot of getting used to).
Magic Mushroom
Member
I think you confuse ganeplay with mechanical depth in some cases. GTA is quite poor mechanically, as is NMS. The others in that list are not bad though.
TheSpoiler
Member
Fair point.
I was using OP's own system in that last post about whether or not the gameplay portion is the focal point, not talking about the quality.
Though we've moved the goalpost from the original topic, I feel.
BravesCountry
Banned
It would seem I really need to get to playing MGSV, I own it but didn't want to invest in a big convoluted story game since I didn't play through 4 either. Of course, with the company that made that game also basically giving a finger to the industry, it's also not a beacon I can confidently latch to regardless, but that's not entirely relevant in the moment
I'm actually playing through MGSV right now and the gameplay is sublime, and so far the story does not get in the way much at all. Which is how I ultimately prefer it even though I have absolutely loved story driven games and will continue to in the future. There is definitely a vocal group on gaf that absolutely despise the game due to the story or lack of it, but even as someone who has played every numbered metal gear I am loving this game so far. I've heard it falls apart a bit further down the line but I can't speak to that myself, what I can speak to is the enormous amount of freedom you have to approach missions, the perfect controls, gorgeous 60 fps sleekness, etc. Fantastic art style. It's worth trying out if you've been waiting on it.
deadscreensky
Member
There's so many games being released now and with such diversity, I think you have to possess truly niche tastes to not feel catered to.
I personally value game mechanics to a huge degree, and I'm constantly getting games which scratch that itch, from big budget to indie. I don't even think it's some rare thing either. And while there's definitely a two steps forward one step back sort of thing going on, I'd argue that on the whole developers have gotten better at designing good game mechanics. The art form has continued to evolve.
Plenty of other people have posted analysis of some of the more popular titles and how mechanics-heavy they are, so I won't bother. But I mean come on, we're getting Forza Horizon 3 next week.
Also you should probably stop (apparently?) ignoring PC gaming.
I personally value game mechanics to a huge degree, and I'm constantly getting games which scratch that itch, from big budget to indie. I don't even think it's some rare thing either. And while there's definitely a two steps forward one step back sort of thing going on, I'd argue that on the whole developers have gotten better at designing good game mechanics. The art form has continued to evolve.
Plenty of other people have posted analysis of some of the more popular titles and how mechanics-heavy they are, so I won't bother. But I mean come on, we're getting Forza Horizon 3 next week.
Also you should probably stop (apparently?) ignoring PC gaming.
Jon Carter
Member
That's why I'm a bigger fan of Nintendo now than when I was a kid. PlayStation has gone full Cinematic.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Thank go for:
goldenpp72
Member
Unfortunately, that list being filled with multiplayer only (or focused) titles and sports games doesn't help me personally, and I do feel they largely sell based on being community titles or being appealing on a setting level, aka remove the NFL license and see what happens with Madden, etc. Though in that instance I realize how it might seem like goal post moving so i'll refrain from stating it as a fact, but it certainly limits the kind of design when the majority of what is selling is basically stuff people are probably playing almost exclusively online.
If nothing else, this thread is helping me narrow down my primary issue. I'm not really into online gaming any more (I used to be, but getting older has left that being a bit more difficult to keep up with). If you were to narrow out what my focus is, single player AAA titles, you'd see maybe 2 or 3 titles on that list that matters, one of which i'm pretty sure is being pegged as a flop unfortunately. When I hear Dues Ex is selling poorly despite being right up my alley while Destiny, a game I don't consider fun at all goes on to sell butt loads, this is exactly what compels me to feel wary about my gaming future.
Still, while misery loves company, it is nice that so many are still content with the state of things or don't see an issue. I guess if I loved online games i'd be a lot less bothered.
CharminUltra
Member
Yup, but luckily there are still plenty of companies that cater to my tastes (with Nintendo leading the pack.)
Magic Mushroom
Member
Bloodborne? Driveclub? Nioh? Ratchet and Clank? Gravity Rush 2? Smaller games like Resogun? It could be worse, though I echo the love for Nintendo
I don't think that's the case. I also feel that people get confused on what games are pure Cinematic as well.
Thought I will give you the Nintendo throw-in. They are the only ones out of the big three that have all if not the majority of their games focusing on gameplay first. Aesthetics of their games do turn me off however.
UnnecessaryTodd
Member
I agree with pretty much all of your post but I wanted to respond to this first.
I think the big issue here is that people expect a level of cinematic quality to their AAA games. These companies have huge budgets and people expect them to deliver something they feel cost that much. Companies feel obligated to spend tens or hundreds of millions of dollars just to meet the visual expectations of their audience.
The fact of the matter is that as long as a AAA game's mechanics are decent enough, the sales of the game are much more influenced by spectacle and graphics and story.
On a much smaller scale this is kind of what happened to Double Fine's Broken Age. They received way more money than they expected, and they had to deliver a game they felt matched the visual expectations that their budget allowed which caused the gameplay to suffer.
Personally, I would love AAA industries to toy with the kinds of ideas that indie developers are doing. To take a step back and look at the games that got these AAA industries to be the behemoths they are today and really look at what made those games so popular.
I don't think it's that bad. The main thing for me is knowing my preferences don't often mesh with many users and reviewers now, I know I have to really delve into impressions to find if a game is for me anymore.
Things are better then they used to be I'd say though, what with games like the Souls series building an appreciation of this stuff again despite being filled with a lot of things that were big boogiemen in the industry say 10 years ago.
Things are better then they used to be I'd say though, what with games like the Souls series building an appreciation of this stuff again despite being filled with a lot of things that were big boogiemen in the industry say 10 years ago.
goldenpp72
Member
See from what i've read about Dues Ex MD, many express that a lot of the budget must have gone into things like level design and overall game structure, i'm not at home to play it right now but I love what i've heard. Many people state they didn't see an enhancement in the big budget obvious spectacle way and bash it for that, while ignoring this stuff. I guess it's not as flashy or obvious so it must be bad or irrelevant. It's like you need that ridiculous spectacle on top of that design just to get noticed by the masses, and then later people come to appreciate the awesome game (see RE4)
Magic Mushroom
Member
OP has a point about Deus Ex though. I do feel the general audience often doesn't care about mechanical depth or interesting game design. Look at how bad Platinum games generally sell, or how dumbed down Dead Rising is now.
At least Soulsborne caught on, so it's not all bad.
At least Soulsborne caught on, so it's not all bad.
MegamanPoweredUP
Member
TLDR
Absolutely. This industry is passig me by.
Cinematicness, focus on story or online multiplayer, 30 something withe male characters with brawn hairs and beards...I hate everything about modern gaming.
I'll always be an arcade player. I don't want to constanly navigate menus. I don't want to hear the story of some edgelord beardy guy.
I just want to feel the action on the screen. Is ti too much to ask?
Absolutely. This industry is passig me by.
Cinematicness, focus on story or online multiplayer, 30 something withe male characters with brawn hairs and beards...I hate everything about modern gaming.
I'll always be an arcade player. I don't want to constanly navigate menus. I don't want to hear the story of some edgelord beardy guy.
I just want to feel the action on the screen. Is ti too much to ask?
Magic Mushroom
Member
Buy RIVE if you haven't already. Thank me later.
UnnecessaryTodd
Member
I don't understand this reaction. I started playing Human Revolution the other week and the graphics are perfectly fine. Better than I need to enjoy a game. They don't detract from the actual experience at all so why does it bother people? I'm really hoping that the upcoming Psychonauts 2 doesn't focus too much on graphics. It does need a boost but the kind of weird blocky style actually suited the world so they don't need to do too much.
goldenpp72
Member
Sword Of Doom
Member
I agree that games don't need to be punishing to be engaging. I didn't find Metal Gear Rising neither difficult or particularly deep but it was so much fun to play. The point I was trying to make is that the gameplay in modern AAA games isn't necessarily bad, its everything else in the game that isn't engaging. There is no purpose to playing other than finishing the game
tearsintherain
Member
Feels like there is a more wide variety of games than ever, you just have to not get mad that the top 20 games sold every year don't really suit you. It used to be everyone played the same games so there was that "community" where as a gamer you knew if someone else was a gamer, you probably played pretty much the same games. Everyone played Zelda, Mario, and maybe Halo.
That is completely blown out now. My buddy plays MOBAs only, I've never touched one. My sister in law plays world of warcraft, I quit years ago. Card games, mobile games, multiplayer FPS, sports games, single player story games, indie games, etc, etc, etc. There is soooo much depth in each category that you can basically just stay in it and have way too many new games come at you just in that category to ever go outside your comfort zone.
I see a ton of game mechanic heavy games, stuff like Hitman or Path of Exile or Diablo 3 or Super Mario Maker or Cities Skyline or really a near infinite list, I just think you have to go out and find the ones that interest you because chances are they are a smaller niche than the ones most other people are playing.
That is completely blown out now. My buddy plays MOBAs only, I've never touched one. My sister in law plays world of warcraft, I quit years ago. Card games, mobile games, multiplayer FPS, sports games, single player story games, indie games, etc, etc, etc. There is soooo much depth in each category that you can basically just stay in it and have way too many new games come at you just in that category to ever go outside your comfort zone.
I see a ton of game mechanic heavy games, stuff like Hitman or Path of Exile or Diablo 3 or Super Mario Maker or Cities Skyline or really a near infinite list, I just think you have to go out and find the ones that interest you because chances are they are a smaller niche than the ones most other people are playing.
I agree with the issue with a focus on visuals. One of my most hated things to hear is that X game that's a decade plus old is now suddenly impossible to make at current levels of fidelity. The just tells me the current visual standards are too high if they are constraining the game design that much.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Not really.
Focusing on what I like while ignoring the rest is easy.
Focusing on what I like while ignoring the rest is easy.
I think I had a recent bout of this line of thinking when I realized we'll never get games like Street Fighter III ever again. The technology needed for games like that to exist is no longer in use. You need a CRT to play that game. Same goes for Melee.
Dota 2 and Dark Souls are two games I can think of that I've played in the past few years that are the exception to the shit that gets put out these days. They are deep, intricate experiences that you feel rewarded for taking the time to learn about.
Dota 2 and Dark Souls are two games I can think of that I've played in the past few years that are the exception to the shit that gets put out these days. They are deep, intricate experiences that you feel rewarded for taking the time to learn about.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Implying that navigating menus is not one of the components of games with most emphasis on pure mechanics since forever.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Absolutely in agreement. Basically, gameplay-oriented games in the AAA space can only be found in very few games. It's basically Nintendo, Sega, some party of Ubisoft (mainly Monpellier), From, Monster Hunter team and multiplayer shooters that care a lot about mechanics. Considering I don't like the "animation priority gameplay" at all and also don't like shooters, nor online, I feel severly limited in my AAA choices. This is also why I'm particularly furious about Rare's experience-and-comrady-driven Sea of Thieves, since Rare has always been mechanics-oriented. Indies offer a good variety of alternatives for the mechanics-kind of guy, but I really love the polish on offer in AAA games and while I like the quick and nice ideas of many Indie games, they cannot replace AAA games with a mechanical focus for me. Considering I also only like very few cinematic games at all, I definitely feel left behind by the industry.
You see, these "spectacle games" aren't actually common. What did we get this year, for example, in that respect? Uncharted and the campaigns of the MP shooters are the only thing that comes to mind.
There's also the shallow open world games, but again, how many do we get of those this year? 2? Ubi brings watch dogs 2 and a second if you their extreme sports game and what else?
There's not nearly as many games that are not gameplay first as people imply there are.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
And almost only thanks to Creative Assembly and Relic for a while.
Logic dictates that this is the case. It would be foolish to believe that there are more $20 million + games than everything underneath put together.
that said, Adventure games have always fallen on the story first section, whether they have big or small budgets.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
This guy gets it.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Let's see how well Madden sells without the license.
From what I have seen in NMS, it is absolutely not mechanically focussed. Its mechanics are definitely not its focus, instead it focusses on the experience of a vast space to "explore". The wonder of what is on the next planet, not the joy of interacting in a challenging and polished way with a playfully designed world. In fact, NMS prides itself with being not very gamey in its environment design.
Not sure about this game, no fixed opinion here.
Agreed ont hose two, they also fit in with the online-shooter group mentioned by OP and me. CoD should stay for the same reasons by the way.
Absolutely not, GTA is not a mechanically oriented game and if it is, it is piss poor at its presumed focus. GTA is all about experience and presentation. Offering a realistic (not gamey!) world, and opportunities to dick around in them in ways that, when considering the presentation, are illegal behaviour in reality. Its mission design predominantly consists of following GPS lines and experiencing scandalous story segments, absolutely nothing mechanically oriented in this game.
Mostly played for its online multiplayer, which, as far as I can tell, is actually mechanically oriented.
Agreed on these two. But please consider, out of the list of games that could stay four are online shooters, with another one also being a shooter.
johnnydrama
Banned
I used to be one of those gamers who would exclusively play cinematic AAA games, and then I just got bored of the whole routine after I grew up, consumed better media, and realized video game stories are almost always subpar. Now, outside of certain studios, I can't deal with "cinematic" games anymore. I just wanna be done with the damn cutscenes and get to playing the damn thing. I love mechanics-based games more than ever. And no, I don't feel like there's any lack of those. Lots of them on PS4 and Xbox One, and since I'm primarily a PC gamer, there's a wealth of absolutely incredible mechanics-based games on Steam. You just have to broaden your horizons. I also play on Nintendo systems. Very happy with the options I have at the moment. I really recommend you try out PC and Nintendo.
goldenpp72
Member
Sea of Thieves is indeed very depressing to me, while I hope it's a fun game, I was dreaming of them to return to one of their SP focused IP (Banjo, Jet force, etc) and instead was greeted with twitch streamer demographic screaming while patching a ship up. Rare used to be a pillar of my entertainment, and I say this as someone who enjoyed their output on 360, yes, even Kinect Sports to some extent. To find out their whole company is basically working on that game made my heart sink, it basically meant no traditional SP titles from Rare on the Xbox one at all.
which makes its dogshit narrative all the more fucking frustrating
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Those and Sonic Team actually. Even if you don't like their output, their games are obviously always mechanically oriented. It's a shame that Nagoshi has abandoned the arcade genre he has perfected. On GameCube, he and his team were responsible for three of my all-time-favourite games (Monkey Ball 1 & 2, F-Zero GX), and before that they also did great work for arcade style games. The loss of arcade style games is the greatest shame for gameplay-first people I think.
Yeah, but even among the big guys, they are not ubiqious.
People that say this usually just dismiss all genres they don't like and look at what's left.
I'm not saying AAA is super varied or in a super great state or anything. But they sell on mostly gameplay too.
It's not like there's not plenty of alternatives around. Very few genres are underserved nowadays.
A lot of people say this, but it's difficult to really swim through this stuff especially when demos have become a rarity in comparison to before. A lot of the Indie stuff you see seems to focus so much on being artsy and emotional that it kind of makes it difficult to see the stuff that is more gameplay oriented.
Yeah i'm excited to play the new Pac-Man game but the exposure for games like it is tricky. when it's not a big name, but i'm mostly regarding this to the big boys in the industry and not the 3 or 4 guys making the amazing looking Sonic Mania
Youre already on gaf, so this stuff isnt that hard to swim through. Between More_Badass's threads and the monthly indie games thread its easy to find things to be interested in. The idea that indie is mostly artsy games just doesnt ring true to me and feels like an excuse to not look deeper.
Doctor Ironic
Member
No. If anything, things are getting better and better in that space. Even MGS moved to a mostly gameplay-based franchise between Rising, Ground Zeroes, and TPP.
Things were at their worst in the late PS2/early PS3 days when everybody had a big story to tell to make their games last 80 hours with cutscenes that were completely unskippable, but eventually people got sick of David Cage and Tetsuya Nomura's shit and now if I like a game's mechanics enough I can skip everything, even stuff I didn't expect to be able to (Arkham Knight and Deus Ex 4 have conversation scenes that do clever stuff with cameras and pacing that I would never expect to be able to fast forward, but almost always can.)
Things were at their worst in the late PS2/early PS3 days when everybody had a big story to tell to make their games last 80 hours with cutscenes that were completely unskippable, but eventually people got sick of David Cage and Tetsuya Nomura's shit and now if I like a game's mechanics enough I can skip everything, even stuff I didn't expect to be able to (Arkham Knight and Deus Ex 4 have conversation scenes that do clever stuff with cameras and pacing that I would never expect to be able to fast forward, but almost always can.)
OnimaruXLR
Member
Yep
Hopefully indie games will get to the point where they're able to operate at the level the major companies were at during the PS2 era. Right now, it's luck of the draw. 10 times you'll get a clone game that tries to bite another game's style nakedly, 5 times you'll get a passable retro revival of a dead genre that doesn't do anything new, 3 times you'll get something with great new ideas that doesn't have the polish to really come together, and then once in a blue moon you get the real good shit
I want more indie games that fall into that last category
Hopefully indie games will get to the point where they're able to operate at the level the major companies were at during the PS2 era. Right now, it's luck of the draw. 10 times you'll get a clone game that tries to bite another game's style nakedly, 5 times you'll get a passable retro revival of a dead genre that doesn't do anything new, 3 times you'll get something with great new ideas that doesn't have the polish to really come together, and then once in a blue moon you get the real good shit
I want more indie games that fall into that last category
More_Badass
Member
Honestly I think you only say that if you only have a limited exposure to indie games. There are endess amounts of gameplay-oriented indies and equally endless amounts that aren't retro throwbacks or that aim for focused and lean rather than grand and ambitious
Kotetsu534
Member
I think most of my friends who really care about the skill-based elements in games spend hundreds of hours playing and mastering the hell out of CS2, LoL and DOTA2 (although recently everyone is playing Overwatch). I don't think it should be underestimated how big a focus online multiplayer is now amongst people who want to refine their mechanical skill.
That said, you do still get deeper single player fare From Software and Nintendo.
That said, you do still get deeper single player fare From Software and Nintendo.
Monocle
Member
Pretty much this.
More_Badass
Member
You should come by the Indie Games threads. Or check out my thread history
You might find this thread useful
Indie games to look forward to in late 2016, 2017, and beyond (Image/GIF-heavy)
goldenpp72
Member
Well I guess that's kind of the point isn't it? That you have to dig deeper to find it, rather than it being front and center like it used to be. I desire titles like Super Metroid or Zelda, and realistically it seems unfair to expect that to be found on a digital download service by indies. If it's out there and i'm missing it though, i'd certainly love to know.
I just don't want to do JUST 'low budget' games just to get my fix, as I do enjoy the finer points of high budgets as well, as long as it doesn't interfere with the game flow. I simply understand that in the current state of gaming, that it's unfair to expect smaller devs to meet the expectations set by legendary, large development teams under high pay. You may find fun, varied experiences, but finding the whole shebang with amazing graphics, gameplay mechanics, music, etc, is less likely each year it feels.
Yooka Laylee excites me somewhat because it's somewhat like an old school AAA title, but it still surely has a lot of signs of lower budget, but if that's something we can evolve from i'm really excited, I just don't want to set my hopes too high.
Still, you'd be right that I haven't investigated as much as I could, simply because I figured if there was nothing obviously interesting that there isn't likely much point in investing time to trying to dig, kind of like trying to find food at a seafood shop when you don't like seafood. There may be some good chicken there but you won't bother looking when you know of an amazing chicken spot
Nintendo has been my savior this gen, I say this as someone who was an Xbox/Cube fan and a 360 fan more than any console that gen, so I guess it just seems jarring to go from Nintendo being an equal companion to like, the dominant force despite having a system that has severe content droughts console wise, and the portable space getting leaner by the month.
More_Badass
Member
You really don't have to dig that much. Usually, you can just go to the popular new releases on Steam. Or see what's popular on GAF. It really isn't hard. It's harder to find the more artsy stuff; the games with flashy visuals and impressive gameplay tend to attract a reasonable amount of coverage
To list a few recent ones
Everspace - https://everspace-game.com
Redout - http://34bigthings.com/portfolio/redout/
House of the Dying Sun - http://dyingsungame.com
Rive - http://www.rivethegame.com/
Coming later
PAMELA - http://www.pamelagame.com/
Inner Chains - http://innerchainsgame.com/
Ruiner - http://ruinergame.com/
Unreal, Unity, and Cryengine means we're actually getting more of those "whole shebangs" each year
I feel it really started with the PS2 era. Single player games have become too cinematic and multiplayer games, while maybe the best they're ever been, often go for the cheap stat/upgrade gimmick to keep people hooked.
Overall I think multiplayer is probably better than ever(even thought I still think there is wasted potential not being maximized). Great single player games that rely on mechanics have dropped off a bit though. I think the money isn't there as much for single player games so unless they have a passion for a single player game it probably makes more financial sense to go with a multiplayer game.
Overall I think multiplayer is probably better than ever(even thought I still think there is wasted potential not being maximized). Great single player games that rely on mechanics have dropped off a bit though. I think the money isn't there as much for single player games so unless they have a passion for a single player game it probably makes more financial sense to go with a multiplayer game.
Perfect answer, I subscribe 100%.