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[Pathetic Basement Virgin]

They shouldn't change. I want my SMB 3-II Nintendo.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

IGN hasn't evolved since 1999.

If only that were the case.

 

[The Albatross]

I've long criticized car manufacturers for really not innovating with the wheel. I mean, they're generally selling the same technology that has existed for 10,000 years.

 

[Neon_Icarus]

Yes, please start doing DLC Nintendo. I can't wait to start paying for levels, which would have otherwise been included in the disc.

 

[Penguin]

I somewhat agree with the writer. 2D Mario and 2D DK haven't changed since the SNES days. However, I think they both can get a break since they were only recently revived since the SNES days. Also for those complaining, yes I'd like 2D Mario and 2D DK to evolve. 2D Mario in the NES and SNES days was constantly evolving from SMB to SMB3 to SMW to SMW2:YI. I liked NSMB Wii and it may be the best 2D Mario platformer but it felt creatively uninspired. He is however factually wrong about Kirby. There is still traditional Kirby 2D platformers but there are still many quirky, gimmicky Kirby games that introduce new gameplay.

I could be wrong, but isn't Jungle Beat a Donkey Kong 2D platformer?

That felt like a radical departure from the Country series.

I guess... to me anyhow, is IGN makes it sound like there has been this huge influx of Donkey Kong and Mario titles in 2D, when we're looking at 1 and 2 in the last 15 years.

And Super Mario 3D Land seems to be an odd mix of 2d/3d game play for the next Mario game.

 

[Cipherr]

I haven't played limbo yet but LBP is some bad bad platforming.

Yeah but its 'HD'.

 

[rpmurphy]

I somewhat agree with the writer. 2D Mario and 2D DK haven't changed since the SNES days. However, I think they both can get a break since they were only recently revived since the SNES days. Also for those complaining, yes I'd like 2D Mario and 2D DK to evolve. 2D Mario in the NES and SNES days was constantly evolving from SMB to SMB3 to SMW to SMW2:YI. I liked NSMB Wii and it may be the best 2D Mario platformer but it felt creatively uninspired. He is however factually wrong about Kirby. There is still traditional Kirby 2D platformers but there are still many quirky, gimmicky Kirby games that introduce new gameplay.

Yeah, and the main premise of the 2D platformer revival was based on bringing back people's experiences with the classic games and updating with new visuals and gameplay tweaks.

 

[Stumpokapow]

:lol Has anyone actually bothered reading/skimming the article? It has little to do with Mario or Donkey Kong.

Since no one has, I'll stick to the inflammatory title of this thread. Frankly the IGN writer is not wrong. The article is strictly about 2D platformers, so you can't call in SMG and what not. Both NSMBW and DKCR are very similar to their predecessors.

NSMBW and DKCR are similar to their predecessors, but they also have important new elements mechanically and presentationally. I don't agree with his premise that 2D gaming inherently doesn't manage to justify full price. I think anyone that uses Alien Hominid to represent the best of anything is literally crazy. I think saying "for every <list of great 2d platformers on Wii> there are also duds... now for a list of great platformers on XBLA/PSN/PC" is silly, because there are duds on those platforms as well, and if we're emphasizing the great aspect of the 2D revival I think we should talk about some of the great 2D on Wii.

It's true that the quotation in the OP is amongst the most inflammatory things said in the article, but I don't think the article as a whole is novel or interesting or shines a light on anything we didn't already know or mentions any games we haven't heard of or really provides a meaningful dissection of what generates value or what doesn't.

And Kirby's Epic Yarn is just shit masked by pretty visuals.

I don't think it's shit, on any level. It controls well. It is well paced. It has a lot of content. The co-op works well. The music is excellent. The visual theme of the game is very well integrated into the mechanical design of the game. Also I find the level design generally interesting, I thought there was a good variety of obstacles enemies, traversal mechanics, and player moves.

I think it's very successful at what it set out to do; it simply doesn't appeal to a large part of the people here because it's even easier than the already too-easy-for-GAF Kirby franchise generally is. So for a lot of people it just feels very light, breezy, and slight.

Yeah but its 'HD'.

The writer does an exceedingly shitty job at explaining this, but LBP's contribution to the platforming genre is not good platforming. Its main contributions are: Plane shifting for a pinch of "3d" in a 2d game, Play Create Share, and the co-op implementation. I'm not a huge fan of the game at least partially because I don't think it's a very good platformer, but it's a pretty significant game for the possibilities it alludes to.

 

[gutter_trash]

I think Mario devolved backwards in Mario 64, Sunshine and Galaxy IMO

We have to replay the NES Marios to get real essence of Super Mario games and feel.

DK imo is a different story since DK Country is a completely different game than original arcade Donkey Kong and I don't understand why DK is brought into discussion when the Zelda series is more guilty of rinse & repeat

 

[Grisby]

I like Mario but I haven't purchased NSMB nor SMG 2. In some way they definitely haven't changed. Luckily other titles like Super Meat Boy and LitteBigPlanet have filled and innovated on the basic 2D idea.

LBP in particular is great because of the physics and the create-a level stuff. The next Mario should include some sort of create a thingy. I always wondered why Nintendo hasn't gone on that route (well, probably because of their Draconian online ideas).

 

[Rodney McKay]

Don't try to sound smart.

Good God I hate when people say shit like this. It's little better than starting your post off with FUCK YOU.

 

[Shig]

In terms of "stage architecture", which I'm assuming refers to the theme of a stage rather than the mechanics, I'd first of all say that theme isn't important to consider here. 'Splosion Man only had one stage theme, and not having multiple stage themes definitely made the game feel dragged out and undiverse, but it has nothing to do with the actual diversity or amount of content. Second of all, Meat Boy has 6 themed worlds to Mario's 8, plus the Dark World stages typically included a visual remix including but not limited to time-of-day changes, or silhouetting. Third of all, if you include the glitch levels, Game Boy warp zones, etc. the visual variety continues to grow. I feel they are both about on par with each other.

I can't agree with this. Each world in Mario has a myriad of variations in assets from one stage to the next. Within each world's theme, there are several sub-themes; different tilesets, different scenery, different music.

Meat Boy, on the other hand, contains chunks of 20 sequential stages all with one recurring tileset, one background, and one song.

The repetition and simplicity of Meat Boy's assets would absolutely not fly in a full retail game. You're treating 'number of stages' as the only thing that counts under the banner of content, when it's asolutely not. It's like saying a movie's main attraction is its run time.

 

[Shiggy]

I basically think that the best use of NSMBWii co-op is playing along-side a young kid and having him/her using the bubble mechanism when they get to a part that overwhelms them. I found it very frustrating when trying to actually have two players play the game versus one player helping the other.

NSMB Wii was no fun for me as a competitive game, it only made sense as a co-op game. Thus you need to find the right people to play with - here an online mode would've been great but pretty much impossible for Nintendo (lag).

 

[Boonoo]

LBP in particular is great because of the physics and the create-a level stuff. The next Mario should include some sort of create a thingy. I always wondered why Nintendo hasn't gone on that route (well, probably because of their Draconian online ideas).

I bet it's more that they don't trust people to create up-to-standard Mario levels. Sure, there would be a few diamonds, but I think overall they would be scared off by the thought of people playing through hoards of trashy levels. In the end I don't think they'd be willing to let go of controlling the players experience.

 

[rpmurphy]

I like Mario but I haven't purchased NSMB nor SMG 2. In some way they definitely haven't changed. Luckily other titles like Super Meat Boy and LitteBigPlanet have filled and innovated on the basic 2D idea.

LBP in particular is great because of the physics and the create-a level stuff. The next Mario should include some sort of create a thingy. I always wondered why Nintendo hasn't gone on that route (well, probably because of their Draconian online ideas).

Nintendo has done online custom level sharing in Mario vs. DK, and it's not really that great. The crappy maps get constantly upvoted for some reason, and not the well-designed and challenging ones.

 

[Rodney McKay]

Meat Boy, on the other hand, contains chunks of 20 sequential stages all with one recurring tileset, one background, and one song.

Are you joking or have you never actually played the game?

 

[Shiggy]

Nintendo has done online custom level sharing in Mario vs. DK, and it's not really that great. The crappy maps get constantly upvoted for some reason, and not the well-designed and challenging ones.

That happens in every game with user created content...Boom Blox, Little Big Planet, Wario Ware DIY. I don't think Nintendo should follow this route.

 

[Boney]

I think Mario devolved backwards in Mario 64, Sunshine and Galaxy IMO

We have to replay the NES Marios to get real essence of Super Mario games and feel.

DK imo is a different story since DK Country is a completely different game than original arcade Donkey Kong and I don't understand why DK is brought into discussion when the Zelda series is more guilty of rinse & repeat

Did you play NSMBWii?

NSMB Wii was no fun for me as a competitive game, it only made sense as a co-op game. Thus you need to find the right people to play with - here an online mode would've been great but pretty much impossible for Nintendo (lag).

I loved it as a competitive game, but that's the thing, it's design lends itself to multiple ways to play it.

 

[Grisby]

I bet it's more that they don't trust people to create up-to-standard Mario levels. Sure, there would be a few diamonds, but I think overall they would be scared off by the thought of people playing through hoards of trashy levels. In the end I don't think they'd be willing to let go of controlling the players experience.

I agree that N has a level of quality control over their IP's and your reason is pretty sound. But like LBP I think you'd find a lot of good to great levels, maybe even more considering how much simpler it should be.

 

[Shiggy]

Are you joking or have you never actually played the game?

He's saying "Meat Boy": http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/463241
That game is pretty bad and boring indeed and stopped me from playing SMB.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

I could be wrong, but isn't Jungle Beat a Donkey Kong 2D platformer?

That felt like a radical departure from the Country series.

I guess... to me anyhow, is IGN makes it sound like there has been this huge influx of Donkey Kong and Mario titles in 2D, when we're looking at 1 and 2 in the last 15 years.

And Super Mario 3D Land seems to be an odd mix of 2d/3d game play for the next Mario game.

Completely forgot about Jungle Beat so you're right there. Also as I said I somewhat agree. Obviously as you said he's trying to imply things that are simply untrue.

I also never said anything against 3D Mario because that is constantly evolving.

Yeah, and the main premise of the 2D platformer revival was based on bringing back people's experiences with the classic games and updating with new visuals and gameplay tweaks.

I agree which is why I said I'd give them a pass since it's been 15+ years since they had made a new 2D Mario. There are some people in this thread though that have been complaining and saying they don't want evolution in their 2D Mario. However, when I think innovation/evolution HD graphics, DLC and 5.1 Surround sound aren't exactly what I'm thinking of so I disagree with the IGN writer there.

I bet it's more that they don't trust people to create up-to-standard Mario levels. Sure, there would be a few diamonds, but I think overall they would be scared off by the thought of people playing through hoards of trashy levels. In the end I don't think they'd be willing to let go of controlling the players experience.

Nintendo didn't seem to have a problem with people creating their own stages in SSBB and Mario Vs. DK.

 

[Shig]

Are you joking or have you never actually played the game?

Are you lacking reading comprehension? One song per 20-stage world.

 

[StickSoldier]

Am I wrong in saying that HD doesn't change gameplay?

 

[Rodney McKay]

He's saying "Meat Boy": http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/463241
That game is pretty bad and boring indeed and stopped me from playing SMB.

Why would he bring up the free flash version of a game when everyone else is talking about the $15 downloadable game?

 

[Steroyd]

These titles don't have the added bonuses of HD graphics, online play, leaderboards, true 5.1 sound and the potential for DLC expansions.

I... don't see how any of those are a selling point toward the main game, granted DLC can extend the game further which is never a bad thing but it's not a make or break feature if the game itself is good enough.

Ah fuck I put too much thought into an IGN article, I havn't clicked onto their website in years, and this is why.

 

[Shiggy]

Why would he bring up the free flash version of a game when everyone else is talking about the $15 downloadable game?

I really don't know.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I can't agree with this. Each world in Mario has a myriad of variations in assets from one stage to the next. Within each world's theme, there are several sub-themes; different tilesets, different scenery, different music.

Meat Boy, on the other hand, contains chunks of 20 sequential stages all with one recurring tileset, one background, and one song.

The repetition and simplicity of Meat Boy's assets would absolutely not fly in a full retail game. You're treating 'number of stages' as the only thing that counts under the banner of content, when it's asolutely not. It's like saying a movie's main attraction is its run time.

I'll again exclude music because 1) Meat Boy has little variety of music which I've already conceded and 2) Again, I think both NSMB Wii and Meat Boy are better with no music turned on. Both games have good sound effects and design so ideally no music, yes sound. I don't think it weakens my point to cede this.

It's true that Mario has different tilesets and different scenery within a world. So does Meat Boy. Take just the first Forest world; you have both "cave" type scenes (1-6) and outdoor scenes (1-1), as well as the use of some "steel/industrial" tilesets (1-4) and burning forest tilesets (1-11) at day (1-2), dusk (1-5) and at night (1-13), sometimes with cloudy weather (1-12) or sunlight incorporated into the level (1-16). In the Dark World the weather and daylight patterns are different (1-2X is cloudy at night which is not seen in the light world, for example, 1-4X has different lighting in the caves which sets the mood differently, 1-19X introduces midnight) you also have silhouetted levels (1-6X for an example with an artsy background, 1-16X with a flat background, 1-18X for white silhouetting) and also a sort of foggy mist (1-9X). The glitch level uses a similar sort of tileset but an entirely different art style. You also get a Game Boy warp zone, and the sort of Commodore 64-style character unlock zone art. And Forest has less variety than most of the other worlds in the game.

What platform did you play the game on and how far did you play if you think that it uses the same background for every level? Literally every level has a unique background.

Finally, I'll again repeat that variety in visual presentation, while useful to keep a player engaged, has nothing to do with the breadth or depth of content in terms of level design or mechanics. 'Splosion Man is an example of a game with no variety in visual presentation. It's also a fairly padded game, but certainly it has significantly more mechanical variety than visual variety.

 

[Boonoo]

Nintendo didn't seem to have a problem with people creating their own stages in SSBB and Mario Vs. DK.

Oh, hmm. I'd forgotten about SSBB, and I didn't know about MvsDK.

 

[Rodney McKay]

Are you lacking reading comprehension? One song per 20-stage world.

Oh, I see. Could have phrased that a little better, but I see what you meant.

 

[Sadist]

Blockbusters made by hundreds of people (like Mass Effect 2 or Red Dead Redemption) are seen as worthy of a Triple A Game price, whereas most people no longer consider platformers as being in the same ballpark.

Uh huh.

I played Mass Effect 2 IGN. I prefer DKCR/Kirby/NSMB Wii by a good country mile.

 

[jett]

NSMBW and DKCR are similar to their predecessors, but they also have important new elements mechanically and presentationally. I don't agree with his premise that 2D gaming inherently doesn't manage to justify full price. I think anyone that uses Alien Hominid to represent the best of anything is literally crazy. I think saying "for every <list of great 2d platformers on Wii> there are also duds... now for a list of great platformers on XBLA/PSN/PC" is silly, because there are duds on those platforms as well, and if we're emphasizing the great aspect of the 2D revival I think we should talk about some of the great 2D on Wii.

It's true that the quotation in the OP is amongst the most inflammatory things said in the article, but I don't think the article as a whole is novel or interesting or shines a light on anything we didn't already know or mentions any games we haven't heard of or really provides a meaningful dissection of what generates value or what doesn't.

I'm not saying there's nothing anything new in those games(I personally loved DKCR, don't care for NSMBW), just saying the much maligned IGN writer is not completely crazy. It just kind of annoys me when people post in a thread without actually reading what it is about.

I don't think it's shit, on any level. It controls well. It is well paced. It has a lot of content. The co-op works well. The music is excellent. The visual theme of the game is very well integrated into the mechanical design of the game. Also I find the level design generally interesting, I thought there was a good variety of obstacles enemies, traversal mechanics, and player moves.

I think it's very successful at what it set out to do; it simply doesn't appeal to a large part of the people here because it's even easier than the already too-easy-for-GAF Kirby franchise generally is. So for a lot of people it just feels very light, breezy, and slight.

The writer does an exceedingly shitty job at explaining this, but LBP's contribution to the platforming genre is not good platforming. Its main contributions are: Plane shifting for a pinch of "3d" in a 2d game, Play Create Share, and the co-op implementation. I'm not a huge fan of the game at least partially because I don't think it's a very good platformer, but it's a pretty significant game for the possibilities it alludes to.

About Kirby, I almost kind of enjoyed myself when I played it in an easygoing-you're-not-really-doing-anything-of-interest kind of way, but looking back on it it is not good and pretty much wasted my time. I wouldn't play it ever again in my life. The complete and utter lack of challenge was ridiculous. I was just going through the motions in that game. I guess it's a better time if you play it with your four year-old kid or something. It doesn't seem to me that it has a lot of content, unless you count the collectathon aspect. High presentation values is for me the only thing it has going for. I need more than that in a platformer, otherwise I would've enjoyed LBP too. That game has other problems though, mainly unresponsive and unpredictable physics-based controls, which I loathe.

On another note, I've been playing Outland and it's such a fantastic platformer, one of the best I've played this generation. Better than Nintendo's full price titles.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Are you lacking reading comprehension? One song per 20-stage world.

There are also songs for the warp-zones and bosses within each light world. The game has a total of 28 songs (including the intro theme, menu music, and credits song) and essentially 14 worlds, not including content added after launch.

 

[Neon_Icarus]

These titles don't have the added bonuses of HD graphics, online play, leaderboards, true 5.1 sound and the potential for DLC expansions.

I think this quote really shows how little games have evolved in any meaningful way in the past generation or so.

Besides, I can't really see how Nintendo could have offered HD graphics on the Wii.
Well, at least he wasn't complaining about Mii support. Oh IGN... lol

I also found it funny how he mentioned Kirby's Epic Yarn, since I thought it was plenty innovative. But I guess since it didn't sell you half it's levels as DLC....

 

[MYE]

Donkey Kong Country Returns and NSMBW are not full-price worthy titles?

FUCK OFF IGN

 

[Lord_Byron28]

I'm not saying there's nothing anything new in those games(I personally loved DKCR, don't care for NSMBW), just saying the much maligned IGN writer is not completely crazy. It just kind of annoys me when people post in a thread without actually reading what it is about.

Agreed for the most part. I thoroughly enjoyed DKCR and I thought NSMBW was decent(World is still my favorite 2D Mario). However, the IGN writer is correct in that the series hasn't evolved all that much. He is stupid though in suggesting HD Graphics and DLC will evolve them and progress the series. He also makes plenty of other stupid comparisons in the article.

 

[Princess Skittles]

Why is it that almost every moronic statement made by these kind of publications has some kind of mention of so called "AAA Games?"

I wonder what the correlation is.

 

[Rodney McKay]

Super Meat Boy would have been worth $60 if it only had 5.1 surround sound.

A guy can dream... ;_;

 

[nickcv]

@Stumpokapow feel guilty because you made me buy SMB

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Super Meat Boy would have been worth $60 if it only had 5.1 surround sound.

A guy can dream... ;_;

Exactly. Hearing the squishes and splats coming from the rear surround speakers really would have made the experience feel more visceral and AAA.

@Stumpokapow feel guilty because you made me buy SMB

Guilty? More like proud!

 

[daakusedo]

I will enjoy and welcome the new mario bros if it is as excellent as the wii opus.

 

[MYE]

I like Mario but I haven't purchased NSMB nor SMG 2. In some way they definitely haven't changed.

SMG2 introduces more ideas per level than many games manage to entirely.
The one thing that doesnt change is the platforming. As it should.

LBP in particular is great because of the physics and the create-a level stuff. The next Mario should include some sort of create a thingy. I always wondered why Nintendo hasn't gone on that route (well, probably because of their Draconian online ideas).

Dear god no.
Keep that LBP crap away from Mario. LBP might be a cool toybox experience, but its a terrible platformer.

 

[Stumpokapow]

@Stumpokapow feel guilty because you made me buy SMB

Hope you like a challenge. It's a fun challenge because the cost of dying is so low (short levels and you respawn instantly), but it's a challenge nonetheless. You do need patience and perseverance. You will feel your skill level build, no doubt about that. Still, just 100%ing the main game is not super hard if you keep at it for a few days. Good luck.

I'm not saying there's nothing anything new in those games(I personally loved DKCR, don't care for NSMBW), just saying the much maligned IGN writer is not completely crazy. It just kind of annoys me when people post in a thread without actually reading what it is about.

I feel the overly negative attitude towards games journalism is simultaneously:
1) Well deserved because of the low quality of crap they pump out all the time
2) Really obnoxious because it means that people shitpile on stuff, love to read stuff they know they'll hate, and make it impossible to actually discuss well-written articles because of the stigma.

About Kirby, I almost kind of enjoyed myself when I played it in an easygoing-you're-not-really-doing-anything-of-interest kind of way, but looking back on it it is not good and pretty much wasted my time.

Right, so we're basically on the same page, I'm just a little more stringent at separating disliking a game from "It was bad" than you are. Cool. Although I actually did like Kirby's Epic Yarn, because--and this might surprise people because of my enthusiasm for Meat Boy in this thread--I actually like playing incredibly easy games along with incredible hard ones. But yeah my taste is more broad than most and I get why it wasn't for a lot of people on this site.

On another note, I've been playing Outland and it's such a fantastic platformer, one of the best I've played this generation. Better than Nintendo's full price titles.

I liked Outland a lot (I'd give it an A), it's a great game. I recommended it very heavily to everyone when I played it, but releasing during the PSN downtime I think overshadowed it bigtime for like more than half its potential audience. Still, it's a very short, easy, and sort of... minor game in my opinion.

 

[Princess Skittles]

What gaming needs is more HDs, more TRUE 5.1 surrounds, more DLCs and most importantly, MORE AND MORE As.

AAAA and AAAAA games next generation or I'm out.

 

[Nocturnowl]

Oh DK really is an odd one, before DKCR came out the last set of 2D DK platformers were...
- a bongo controlled combo based platformer, could have been a great step for platforming....except no one seemed to play it
- "swing based platforming" that involved heavy use of the shoulder buttons to grasp various pegs and swing around stages. Two games used this style, one on the GBA (King of Swing) and the other on DS (Jungle Climber). Not fantastic games but a unique approach and enjoyable enough but both are probably even less played than Jungle Beat combined.

Clearly those experiments didn't pan out so back to the basics for DK but it's not as if they didn't try to mix things up.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Is it ironic that the most "evolved" idea in DKCR (rolling with a flick of the Wiimote) was my least favorite part of the game? I for one am a huge fan of the 2D revival that's going on. The core gameplay is timeless, in my opinion, it just needs to be supplemented with new obstacles, level design, and visuals. Obviously I don't want this to be the case for every new game but I certainly think there is a comfortable place for this style in the future of video games.

 

[dragonfart28]

Arthur Gies writes Nintendo articles now?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The logical fallacy of the article is that it keeps inserting a fantasy "most people" that do not like 2D platformers.

Most people don't want this stuff on disc. Most people want 5.1 sound.

It seems like, if you were to actually draw up a list of "most people," it might include the thirteen million or so that bought NSMB Wii.

 

[Vinci]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

More or less what I was thinking. I mean, they sold a ridiculous amount of copies of NSMB both on the DS and the Wii. There is clearly a huge market out there for the experience it represents. I mean, I don't have a problem with them adding some of the things IGN is bitching about, but it's not as if the games appeal to some niche market and need to expand out from it or face oblivion.

 

[nincompoop]

Saying that Mario and Donkey Kong haven't changed since the SNES is exactly like saying Killzone/Call of Duty/etc haven't evolved past Goldeneye 64 or Medal of Honor on the PSX. It's completely idiotic and shows that you probably spent very little time playing the games in question.

 

[KenOD]

I didn't read the IGN article, because it's IGN and I long ago stopped caring what anyone there thought, but this thread has been highly entertaining. I do love good talks about platforming games.

I'm just surprised to not see more talk about Super Guide. If we use it or not, that's something the SNES never did.

Is it ironic that the most "evolved" idea in DKCR (rolling with a flick of the Wiimote) was my least favorite part of the game? I for one am a huge fan of the 2D revival that's going on. The core gameplay is timeless, in my opinion, it just needs to be supplemented with new obstacles, level design, and visuals. Obviously I don't want this to be the case for every new game but I certainly think there is a comfortable place for this style in the future of video games.

Well at least you still favoured rolling at least.

Personally I see the platforming between two different planes (silly foreground and background) and environmental changes like statues falling over as far more enjoyable "evolutions". Time attack mode was also good for the Country series.

Shame about the devolution when it came to Diddy.