• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

IGN: "Mario and DK haven't evolved since the SNES"

The_Darkest_Red said:
Is it ironic that the most "evolved" idea in DKCR (rolling with a flick of the Wiimote) was my least favorite part of the game?

Thats the most random thing to choose as "the most evolved idea" in that game.

Rolling on moving, circular platforms, silhouette levels, multiple planes, obstacles moving according to the music, grass grabbing platforming, etc... all ideas that add more to the platforming gameplay of DKC than the design choice to roll with the flick of the remote.
 
The_Darkest_Red said:
Is it ironic that the most "evolved" idea in DKCR (rolling with a flick of the Wiimote) was my least favorite part of the game?

Played a handful of levels with motion controls, didn't like it, used the classic controller cheat code, liked the game a lot more for it. THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY ;)
 
Bootaaay said:
Those quotes remind me of practically every mainstream gaming media review of modern SHMUPs, where sites like IGN routinely criticise the games for not having online play, not having spectacular next-gen graphics or for simply not being long enough. Reviewers like this gleefully ignore what it is the target audience wants and expects from SHMUPs and when one criticises a title for not being all that much different from it's ancestors they are usually right in a basic sense, but often utterly fail to understand that under the familiar surface it's the MECHANICS of the game that have evolved, with complex and in-depth scoring systems adding in high score-based longevity beyond the traditional 1 credit complete goal.

The same can be said of 2D platformers. To the naked eye the genre has not evolved much at all since the first Super Mario, but that's because it doesn't really need to. Platforming moved into the 3D realm in the 90's, and with it came some real evolutions to the genre, but that progression hasn't at all diminished the desire for 2D platformers within the eyes of the gaming public. And that should tell IGN something, maybe that the 2D platformer formula doesn't NEED to evolve all that much. It just needs to keep providing intriguing settings, well-designed levels and challenging and fun 2D platformer gameplay.
The age of games is over. We now live in the age to cinematic multimedia experiences and as many boxes as possible. Eventually, they'll do away with this silly "gameplay" nonsense altogether and we'll get to enjoy the very best Bioware and Treyarch have to offer without any needless inteference from interactivity. We're most of the way there already, so it's just a matter of time now. Prepare for the future!
 
MYE said:
Thats the most random thing to choose as "the most evolved idea" in that game.

Rolling on moving, circular platforms, silhouette levels, multiple planes, obstacles moving according to the music, grass grabbing platforming, etc... all ideas that add more to the platforming gameplay of DKC than the design choice to roll with the flick of the remote.
The reason I put "evolved" in quotations is because I was referencing the apparent definition of "evolved" that IGN uses. Anything related to motion controls would probably be seen as more of an evolution to them than a gameplay mechanic in a 2D platformer.

Personally I completely agree with what you're saying though.
 
Orayn said:
The age of games is over. We now live in the age to cinematic multimedia experiences and as many boxes as possible. Eventually, they'll do away with this silly "gameplay" nonsense altogether and we'll get to enjoy the very best Bioware and Treyarch have to offer without any needless inteference from interactivity. We're most of the way there already, so it's just a matter of time now. Prepare for the future!
Indie games will pave the way to a second coming of classic gameplay gaming.
 
Stumpokapow said:
Played a handful of levels with motion controls, didn't like it, used the classic controller cheat code, liked the game a lot more for it. THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY ;)

Oh Aye. Terrible mistake by Retro not to make that an option themselves. If Mario Kart and Smash Bros can handle it, so should Donkey Kong.
 
I thought the flicking motions were pretty responsive and worked well.
But then again i do like motion controls and the feel of the nunchuck+remote combo :P

edit: And yeah, unlike Super Mario Galaxy, DCKR would work just as wll with the CC.
Retro should've given people the choice of multiple controls
 
MYE said:
I thought the flicking motions were pretty responsive and worked well.
But then again i do like motion controls and the feel of the nunchuck+remote combo :P
I found them more tolerable than most but they were still my least favorite part of the game. I'm a huge DKC fan.
 
Stumpokapow said:
I liked Outland a lot (I'd give it an A), it's a great game. I recommended it very heavily to everyone when I played it, but releasing during the PSN downtime I think overshadowed it bigtime for like more than half its potential audience. Still, it's a very short, easy, and sort of... minor game in my opinion.

Attempting to get to the top of the leaderboards in time arcade/time attack mode will turn those complaints around. :P I spent over two hours working just the jungle stage, managed to get into the top 5. I think it's as short as you want to make it. I did take me 6~ hours to complete story mode with almost all of the items picked though, I thought it was a decent time for a $10 game.
 
MYE said:
I thought the flicking motions were pretty responsive and worked well.
But then again i do like motion controls and the feel of the nunchuck+remote combo :P
Exactly, I couldn't imagine playing DKCR with a classic controller. That clunky piece of shit that Nintendo calls a dpad is far less precise than motion controls have ever been for me. I can't even do Sabin's blitz moves half of the time in Final Fantasy 6 on the VC.
 
The_Darkest_Red said:
Exactly. Hearing the squishes and splats coming from the rear surround speakers really would have made the experience feel more visceral and AAA.
Truly an experience worthy of the Next-Gen premium price. Also get rid of those ugly, blocky sprites. Only hand drawn 1080p artwork and/or polygons are acceptable in this brave, innovative new world.
 
I'll admit, I haven't read the entire editorial because I don't want to give IGN page hits. But if this is actually the viewpoint of a games journalist about what makes games great, then this is truly sad. It reads like some fanboy rant from GameFAQs.

All of those features listed in the article haven't really come about since the current generation of consoles. So making hyperbolic statements like "they haven't evolved since the SNES" is faulty. I don't really see how all of these features would benefit platformers, either. None of them really improve the core gameplay experience. I mean, in a way, they do make the games "better," but not fundamentally so. It's just so disappointing that a "games journalist" sees these things as what makes games great. Jonathan Blow gave a great lecture recently on how video games have evolved without actually pushing the boundaries for game design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqFu5O-oPmU

Undoubtedly, Mario and DK will have some of these features when the Wii U releases. But will they be that much better for it? Probably not. If the IGN writer wants to claim that the gameplay in these platformers has gotten stale, I'm willing to hear that argument. But it's almost unanimous that Mario Galaxy has fine-tuned 3D platforming and level design nearly to perfection.
 
Derrick01 said:
They're 100% right for once. There really isn't a huge difference between Galaxy 1 and Mario 64, or NSMB with the 2D Marios, or the new Donkey Kong from the originals. That's why so many people complain about them using the same franchises in mostly the same games all the time and it's why I got tired of Nintendo.
Wow.
 
Nintaiyo said:
I'll admit, I haven't read the entire editorial because I don't want to give IGN page hits. But if this is actually the viewpoint of a games journalist about what makes games great, then this is truly sad. It reads like some fanboy rant from GameFAQs.

All of those features listed in the article haven't really come about since the current generation of consoles.

Well it's worth noting that with very few exceptions (Tomba, Klonoa, Mischief Makers--not precluding others that are not listed here, but these are my favs in the generation) the PS1/PS2 generations were pretty much a dead zone for 2d Platforming. So really, the current generation and the SNES generation are the last two where the genre has been super active.
 
Stumpokapow said:
Played a handful of levels with motion controls, didn't like it, used the classic controller cheat code, liked the game a lot more for it. THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY ;)

It was the reason I bought a classic controller. Changed the game drastically for the better
 
If I had to make my guesses:

Donkey Kong has probably reached new heights, but I don't really care about DKC.

Mario has retrogressed since SMB3, especially with the Galaxy games, but NSMB Wii might beat out World. I'll have to go back to each of those and figure that one out.
 
Derrick01 said:
They're 100% right for once. There really isn't a huge difference between Galaxy 1 and Mario 64, or NSMB with the 2D Marios, or the new Donkey Kong from the originals. That's why so many people complain about them using the same franchises in mostly the same games all the time and it's why I got tired of Nintendo.

How did i miss this gem of a post

lol
 
SYNTAX182 said:
This deserves a good ol', "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
Nah, it's more like, "If it ain't broke, you can still check more boxes."
Games are nothing without their AAA budgets, online passes, morality systems, "epic" narratives, and $15 map packs.
 
Rodney McKay said:
Truly an experience worthy of the Next-Gen premium price. Also get rid of those ugly, blocky sprites. Only hand drawn 1080p artwork and/or polygons are acceptable in this brave, innovative new world.

Why should it carry a "next-gen premium price" when beautiful, hand-drawn sprites on other systems cost $15? And in several cases are also better games.
 
Has anyone else ever noticed how IGN's editorials never seem to line up with their review scores? I know that there are different people involved but I just find it kind of irritating.

New Super Mario Bros. Wii
IGN - 8.9
IGN UK - 9.4
IGN AU - 9.2

New Super Mario Bros. DS
IGN - 9.5

Donkey Kong Country Returns
IGN - 9.0 (Miss you Craig!)

Kirby's Epic Yarn
IGN - 9.0

So are these games great or not? I mean, I can understand that there are differences of opinion but why didn't any of the reviewers who were tasked with reviewing these games consider the lack of evolution that is apparently so present in them? Not only does his opinion conflict with the opinions of the millions of people who continue to buy these games (as has been mentioned in this thread), it also conflicts with their own in-house opinions. Why didn't he ask the people who reviewed these games why they gave them such great scores before writing this editorial?
 
SamuraiX- said:
You're really gonna take a guy who looks like this seriously?

ij6nM.jpg

Really?
 
On the subject of the perceived value of 2D platformers, I just don't think most of the independent folk who are making these downloadable titles actually price their games properly at all and it's had a sort of ripple effect. Not that $50 would fly at all unless your game is made by Nintendo.

theBishop said:
Why should it carry a "next-gen premium price" when beautiful, hand-drawn sprites on other systems cost $15? And in several cases are also better games.

This is starting to sound like silly app store pricing shenanigans.
 
jman2050 said:
This is starting to sound like silly app store pricing shenanigans

I don't think so. A lot more labor goes into Braid or NSMB vs Cut the Rope. Likewise, a lot more labor goes into Red Dead Redemption or Bioshock vs Braid/NSMB.

I would prefer it if games had a lot more granularity in pricing, but I don't have a big problem with the $0.99 (mobile)->$15 (psn/xbla)->$30 (greatest hits)->$50 (wii)->$60 (ps3/360) defacto standard. But I do think Nintendo is leveraging their brand pretty heavily by charging $50 for NSMB/DKCR.
 
The_Darkest_Red said:
Has anyone else ever noticed how IGN's editorials never seem to line up with their review scores? I know that there are different people involved but I just find it kind of irritating.

New Super Mario Bros. Wii
IGN - 8.9
IGN UK - 9.4
IGN AU - 9.2

New Super Mario Bros. DS
IGN - 9.5

Donkey Kong Country Returns
IGN - 9.0 (Miss you Craig!)

Kirby's Epic Yarn
IGN - 9.0

So are these games great or not? I mean, I can understand that there are differences of opinion but why didn't any of the reviewers who were tasked with reviewing these games consider the lack of evolution that is apparently so present in them? Not only does his opinion conflict with the opinions of the millions of people who continue to buy these games (as has been mentioned in this thread), it also conflicts with their own in-house opinions. Why didn't he ask the people who reviewed these games why they gave them such great scores before writing this editorial?

It's a troll article meant to get hits

Orayn said:
Nah, it's more like, "If it ain't broke, you can still check more boxes."
Games are nothing without their AAA budgets, online passes, morality systems, "epic" narratives, and $15 map packs.

Yup, check that box indeed
 
Bootaay said:
Those quotes remind me of practically every mainstream gaming media review of modern SHMUPs, where sites like IGN routinely criticise the games for not having online play, not having spectacular next-gen graphics or for simply not being long enough.

Nobody complains about Street Fighter IV not having realistic physics or some shit. Maybe it's because there is a vocal community that got that genre's back, whereas the hardcore shmups/platformer fans aren't quite as numerous... or loud.

As far as I am concerned, this stuff about these genres is along the same lines of all the talk about how dead Japan is as a place for game development. What did we get out of that? DmC and shit like that. Thanks game journalists.
 
theBishop said:
I don't think so. A lot more labor goes into Braid or NSMB vs Cut the Rope. Likewise, a lot more labor goes into Red Dead Redemption or Bioshock vs Braid/NSMB.

EDIT: never mind, misread the post.

What I meant is that I think most of these indie devs underpriced their work from the start.
 
polyh3dron said:
He could have said N64 and would have had maybe a toothpick-sized leg to stand on. But he said SNES.

Troll.

Would you say NSMB is more comparable to Super Mario World or Super Mario 64?
 
I think that there's certainly room for Mario and DK and Zelda and all of the Nintendo go-to franchises to evolve, but "the added bonuses of HD graphics, online play, leaderboards, true 5.1 sound and the potential for DLC expansions" are not the direction in which they need to evolve.

I saw the title and thought "oh wow, IGN might be on to something for once," and then immediately revised my feelings when I saw "the added bonuses of HD graphics, online play, leaderboards, true 5.1 sound and the potential for DLC expansions."
 
ShockingAlberto said:
The logical fallacy of the article is that it keeps inserting a fantasy "most people" that do not like 2D platformers.

Most people don't want this stuff on disc. Most people want 5.1 sound.

It seems like, if you were to actually draw up a list of "most people," it might include the thirteen million or so that bought NSMB Wii.

>20mil

theBishop said:
I agree with the quoted bits wholeheartedly.

Big surprise.

I don't think so. A lot more labor goes into Braid or NSMB vs Cut the Rope. Likewise, a lot more labor goes into Red Dead Redemption or Bioshock vs Braid/NSMB.

Link, please. As an example, NSMB Wii is fully playable with 1 player, 2 players, 3 players, and 4 players... And playing it with any of those numbers makes the experience drastically different. There is a LOT of work balancing levels to that degree, and there are a lot of levels to do this for. World 9 in itself must've taken months to balance properly. I don't think you can quantify this statement at all.

I guess you've never heard of the e-Reader? Nintendo was selling levels before people started complaining about "horse armor."

E-reader and animal crossing cards are one thing... (exceptions rather than the rule, in other words) but Nintendo hates DLC. Even in their latest online discussions they've said basically "we will provide all the necessary hooks for DLC, paid usage, etc for our WiiU online, but we're not really interested in DLC ourselves". Because they generally include all the content on the disc and make it unlockable via, you know, playing and/or finishing the game. As they always generally have. As more companies should (like they used to, before they decided to monetize everything).
 
Stumpokapow said:
Wait, what?

SMB has 300+ levels. The game would last you easily as long or longer than New Super Mario Bros (Wii) or any other retail platformer to complete the first time. In addition to all of that content, there is a ton of extra content in the level editor, custom levels, internets, etc. The base content, playing it exactly once, lasts as long or longer than a retail game.

Note: This may be incorrect. I didn't get particularly far into Super Meat Boy, largely due to confusion about just how the glitch worlds worked when I was trying to comprehensively get all the stuff in each level.

But that said: I didn't see a great deal of variation in Super Meat Boy. It was a great game with superb level design, but I didn't really see the 'new stuff every few levels' that I've come to associate with Mario; it was taking one idea and running with it (really well!) without having the constant stream of variation.

I can see an argument about 'lack of content' having a basis if it hinges on the lack of variation, if what I saw of it is indeed correct.

(It's important to underline that that is in *no way* a bad thing!)


Edit: Ah, a later post by Stump suggests that there's rather more variation that I didn't see.
 
mclem said:
Note: This may be incorrect. I didn't get particularly far into Super Meat Boy, largely due to confusion about just how the glitch worlds worked when I was trying to comprehensively get all the stuff in each level.

But that said: I didn't see a great deal of variation in Super Meat Boy. It was a great game with superb level design, but I didn't really see the 'new stuff every few levels' that I've come to associate with Mario; it was taking one idea and running with it (really well!) without having the constant stream of variation.

I can see an argument about 'lack of content' having a basis if it hinges on the lack of variation, if what I saw of it is indeed correct.

Obstacle-wise, the first world is pretty barren; mostly it's just stationary saw blades, small fired sawblades, and pits. I guess you could also count the dissolving sand blocks and dissolving sand walls. But that's to get you used to wall-jumping (and particularly the unique momentum the game assigns to walljumping, both in terms of slow-sliding down and sliding up when you first jump towards a wall) and precision movement. The rate at which new obstacle/enemy mechanics are introduced is quite high in later worlds.

I don't have the time or inclination to try to recollect the hundreds of obstacle types, but there really are that many by the time you've finished every level.

Edit: Ah, a later post by Stump suggests that there's rather more variation that I didn't see.

Mostly that was just thematic variation in the Forest world. Like I said above, the mechanical variation comes later.
 
mclem said:
But that said: I didn't see a great deal of variation in Super Meat Boy.

The various characters and their individual traits added plenty of variation for my play through sessions. Double jump, running along the roof, ability to fly, gliding, etc all mix it up quite well and made me replay through each of the worlds numerous times with each of them.
 
I was hoping this thread would be about a new Mario vs DK game.

Speaking of which.

We really really need a 3D update of Mario vs. DK.

Galaxy like levels, total puzzle and platforming, and make a lot of them.

DO IT.
 
Codeblue said:
I read that as you implying we should care what IGN has to say because they inform and mirror the thoughts of gamers. I just dont think that IGN and the people that follow IGN reflect popular opinion.

You are wrong. Completely.

Most people follow IGN and Gamespot for their gaming news, period. They type in "Video Game" in Google, and those are 2 of the first 6 results. Don't kid yourself, they get tons of traffic.

On topic, successful troll article is successful. I'm not interested in Nintendo's output, but this was the wrong thing to criticize.
 
This thread got me to buy Super Meat Boy. It's been on my todo list for ever but never got around to it. It's a pretty nice game, but seriously I don't see how anyone would be confused as to why it costs 1/4 of what NSMBW does, regardelss of how many levels there are. It's a two man project and it feels like it. It's extremely simplistic and there hasn't been a lot of different features in the 80 or so levels I've played so far. Not that this is a bad thing in itself, sometimes it's nice with clean and simplistic gameplay and it even manages to pull of it's simplistic and crude artstyle so it fits the game (even though I personally find it rather hideous), but let's not pretend that we're getting more than we're paying for.
 
Top Bottom