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[toastyToast]

Interesting choice. Nice to see not going to the typically flawed AAA blockbuster but, I can't say I'd agree given my history with TGCs prior work

I can see how their games could evoke strong emotional responses out of people. They tend to build games around a certain presentational aspect and minimize mechanics. It's an interesting design philosophy and it's nice to have in a sea of shoot dudes + XP + perks

I'm more of a tinkerer, mechanical type of person.

 

[Boss Doggie]

There's a difference between earning an emotional reaction from an audience and being emotionally manipulative.

A good example is Up! A very lackluster film with people praising because of the high emotional level on the first five minutes!

 

[Fantastical]

Probably because its not a 2012 game.

Yes it is, why are people saying this? Xenoblade came out after Mass Effect 3 in NA. It was listed as a nominee on IGN's website.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

Journey is pretty good.

Dismal year overall.

Nah. Journey, Fez, Trials Evo, Mark of the Ninja, To the Moon, Velocity, The Walking Dead, Lone Survivor, Hotline Miami, ZombiU, FTL, Spelunky HD, Super Hexagon, tons of great stuff outside of the mass market. Though there have been some good games there as well. Mario U might not win most most original game, but it plays damn well for example. Also really enjoyed Borderlands 2 and Sleeping Dogs, to name but two. But it's definitely the year of the downloadable game.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Empty is a good word. Artificial is another one I add. You walk across some artistic sand in an artistic desert and climb up an artistic mountain made of art and FEEL SOMETHING DAMMIT and yet there's really nothing much to it from a creative standpoint. I mean Demon's Souls has a really similar mechanic with your multiplayer component being made up of anonymous nobodies showing up in your game, and it's also better at provoking a similar reaction from the player.

The preconceptions some GAF'rs must apply to games before playing them at times must have them breaking out in panic sweats. I can just imagine someone starting Journey with this contorted face and a bullet-point list such as

- Is Artistic
- Is Trying To Provoke Emotional Reaction
- Is Game of the Year

and just them trying to refute each and everyone rather than just enjoying the game or not. When the first co-op partner turns up, when you slide through the golden sands together, or get attacked by a DragonSnake-bot later on, I don't think the natural reaction to that is "STOP TRYING TO ARTIFICIALLY MAKE ME FEEL, GAME DESIGNER".

There's a difference between earning an emotional reaction from an audience and being emotionally manipulative.

Is there? So perhaps a sad sub-plot of an NPC losing a loved one in a game and the resulting dialogue over 8 hours of play or something is more deserving and earnt that emotional reaction with no manipulation on the creators part? All entertainment forged emotion is manipulated, because it isn't real. Another great example of genuine emotion in games is SOTC and Aggro. That horse man. Those feels. But that was manipulation through and through. It all is. But that in itself is an artform. Its good shit. Whether through level design, dialogue, cutscenes, or even just the passage of time in co-op, you're always being manipulated. Thats essentially what videogames are and any entertainment that makes you feel something, other than perhaps directionless sandboxes.

 

[web01]

Journey wasn't even as good as Flower especially the music/story and emotional reaction it provoked.

 

[SentientStone]

There's a difference between earning an emotional reaction from an audience and being emotionally manipulative.

I don't really see that much of a difference between the two. It is kind of like saying an artist's work vs. a designer's work. Both can make you feel the same thing, but one may associate the feeling that an artist produces to be more genuine because an 'artist' sounds more relatable and personable. I think it is only emotionally manipulative if the designer goes a bit too far in evoking that emotion they want (ie. trying too hard), but if they do it successfully with just the right amount of whatever it is that they are using to evoke that emotion then it should be very seamless and immersive for one to not notice anything... and then call the game, art. ;p

 

[Corto]

There's a difference between earning an emotional reaction from an audience and being emotionally manipulative.

There's no difference at all.

 

[Pseudo_Sam]

I do wonder if at times half of NeoGAF has me on their ignore list, or if I post such cracking in depth messages no-one dares go toe to toe with them.

So an emotional game isn't supposed to guide you towards feeling those specific emotions, it should stay entirely hands off like a bad case of the hover hand and just let you apply connections to specific sections entirely at random? "Don't make me feel, man. Fuck you, I'll feel when I want to!"

It of course goes without saying that this is all just my own opinion - feel free to disagree. But yes, I think to a certain extent you can't "design" emotion. Obviously you can design a game, a world, characters, scenarios, ect. And you would want to try and make those elements as emotionally resonant as possible. But there's a difference between making something that projects emotion to the player, and directly injecting the player with a completely artificial laserbeam of emotion. I would say Journey is the posterchild example of the second approach.

 

[epmode]

Journey wasn't even as good as Flower especially the music/story and emotional reaction it provoked.

I agree with this. I actually like both games in a cool screensaver kind of way, but no way in hell @ GOTY. Critics like short, easy games, I guess. Easier to review.

 

[Zep]

As far as shooters go, it should have been Max Payne 3 or Borderlands 2.

 

[rosaceadude2112]

The preconceptions some GAF'rs must apply to games before playing them at times must have them breaking out in panic sweats. I can just imagine someone starting Journey with this contorted face and a bullet-point list such as

- Is Artistic
- Is Trying To Provoke Emotional Reaction
- Is Game of the Year

and just them trying to refute each and everyone rather than just enjoying the game or not. When the first co-op partner turns up, when you slide through the golden sands together, or get attacked by a DragonSnake-bot later on, I don't think the natural reaction to that is "STOP TRYING TO ARTIFICIALLY MAKE ME FEEL, GAME DESIGNER".



Is there? So perhaps a sad sub-plot of an NPC losing a loved one in a game and the resulting dialogue over 8 hours of play or something is more deserving and earnt that emotional reaction with no manipulation on the creators part? All entertainment forged emotion is manipulated, because it isn't real. Another great example of genuine emotion in games is SOTC and Aggro. That horse man. Those feels. But that was manipulation through and through. It all is. But that in itself is an artform. Its good shit. Whether through level design, dialogue, cutscenes, or even just the passage of time in co-op, you're always being manipulated. Thats essentially what videogames are, other than just directionless sandboxes.

Can you please actually respond to posts you quote instead of pretending I said things I didn't. I was pretty amped for Journey, I was hoping for something great and I was disappointed. So feel free to shove your preconceived notions up your ass.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Another great example of genuine emotion in games is SOTC and Aggro. That horse man. Those feels. But that was manipulation through and through. It all is. But that in itself is an artform. Its good shit. Whether through level design, dialogue, cutscenes, or even just the passage of time in co-op, you're always being manipulated. Thats essentially what videogames are and any entertainment that makes you feel something, other than perhaps directionless sandboxes.

SotC handles it masterfully because it flows well. It doesn't give that "look at us trying to be artsy" feel.

 

[Pseudo_Sam]

The preconceptions some GAF'rs must apply to games before playing them at times must have them breaking out in panic sweats. I can just imagine someone starting Journey with this contorted face and a bullet-point list such as

- Is Artistic
- Is Trying To Provoke Emotional Reaction
- Is Game of the Year

and just them trying to refute each and everyone rather than just enjoying the game or not. When the first co-op partner turns up, when you slide through the golden sands together, or get attacked by a DragonSnake-bot later on, I don't think the natural reaction to that is "STOP TRYING TO ARTIFICIALLY MAKE ME FEEL, GAME DESIGNER".

There's no need to get like that. You have no right to accuse someone of not being genuine/open-minded just because they disagree with you about a videogame. Opinions, bro.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Apparently if we think Journey is insubstantial we need more shooting

In any case though I already gave my position.

 

[Pie and Beans]

There's no need to get like that. You have no right to accuse someone of not being genuine/open-minded just because they disagree with you about a videogame. Opinions, bro.

Sorry but the sentence "You walk across some artistic sand in an artistic desert and climb up an artistic mountain made of art and FEEL SOMETHING DAMMIT and yet there's really nothing much to it from a creative standpoint." is perhaps one of the most nonsensical things I've read on GAF today. The very idea of someones over-riding reaction to moving visuals on a screen you're actually in control of being "this is trying to be artistic" is just very silly to me. Its a visual design choice, no more than you'd be getting oddly angry at a game attempting photo-realism.

I've gone into depth over specific elements of Journey that I feel are actually worthy of that "trying to make you feel" element many seem particularly unfond of here:

On a more technical level I found little game design nuances such as a tiny figure in the bright white light doorway early on in the game before any co-op creating a sort of "want to catch up to that person" mindset before getting to the first area wherein you can find travelling partners. On another level further on in a blizzard, the design of the geometry and progression forces you and your partner close together through canyons and the path getting narrower where you suddenly discover being close together and 'huddling' provides warmth which allows you to walk faster.

Your reaction to those things can be either getting into it or scrunching up your brow and pointing fingers at emotional manipulation. Each to their own, but I don't tend to play story based videogames and get angry when theyre progressing a plot, ushering me in a certain direction, or making me feel like a bad-ass. How dare this game get my adrenaline pumping. Those manipulative fucks, these are my brain chemicals!

 

[rosaceadude2112]

Sorry but the sentence "You walk across some artistic sand in an artistic desert and climb up an artistic mountain made of art and FEEL SOMETHING DAMMIT and yet there's really nothing much to it from a creative standpoint." is perhaps one of the most nonsensical things I've read on GAF today. The very idea of someones over-riding reaction to moving visuals on a screen you're actually in control of being "this is trying to be artistic" is just very silly to me. Its a visual design choice, no more than you'd be getting oddly angry at a game attempting photo-realism.

My post had nothing to do with the visuals and everything to do with tone and general vibe of the game.

Keep in mind I love vague artsy stuff with no real narrative thread. Koyaanisqatsi is one of my favorite movies.

Edit: The aforementioned blizzard in Journey is actually a very good example of the emotional manipulation and artificiality therein. You huddle closer to the other player for "warmth" and that is supposed to make you feel some kind of kinship with them. However, the blizzard does not actually affect you, the player, in any substantial way. You simply walk a little slower. Other than that, you have to pretend you are cold. Again, Demon's/Dark Souls does the same thing better. You can be stuck with a stranger in a dangerous situation, yet the odds are relevant to yourself as well as your character because the idea is couched in gameplay concepts, making it a more vivid experience.

 

[Zia]

My post had nothing to do with the visuals and everything to do with tone and general vibe of the game.

Keep in mind I love vague artsy stuff with no real narrative thread. Koyaanisqatsi is one of my favorite movies.

What do you mean "real narrative thread?" The entire Qatsi trilogy has a very distinct, at times heavy-handed, narrative thread running through its entirety.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

It also won a load of other awards from IGN (Best OST/ Best PS3 game)

Congrats TGC

 

[Pie and Beans]

My post had nothing to do with the visuals and everything to do with tone and general vibe of the game.

Keep in mind I love vague artsy stuff with no real narrative thread. Koyaanisqatsi is one of my favorite movies.

Great, so then you understand that any entertainment going for a certain vibe is going to be hit and miss? The ingredients here clearly weren't to your liking and thats natural and fine, but you wouldn't kick up a stink in a restaurant with a tirade like "its a curry that tastes a little bit of fruit, that bastard chef, he's trying to make me taste fruit! You idiots, fruit! He wants your tongues to feel fruity! Really badly!!!" when someones tucking in on the other table across and loving the fuck out of that tang.

The reactions to being "emotionally manipulated" just read too much like someone growling "Don't touch me" when a recent acquaintance gives them a gentle push in a certain direction. Natural of course to suddenly become aware of that, and the suspension of disbelief being broken is perhaps responsible when dealing with an immersive interactive entertainment product, but for everyone else theres a pace, pitch, or rhythm that they can just get into. You want to be wined and dined over a period of time to feel certain reactions to a person, or you want some ass grabbing passion right there. Everyones got their fruity curry desires but taking issue with a chef wanting you to taste just seems silly. I'm hungry now.

 

[Carl]

Lol at all of the people complaining that Journey had no gameplay.

 

[krYlon]

Is there? So perhaps a sad sub-plot of an NPC losing a loved one in a game and the resulting dialogue over 8 hours of play or something is more deserving and earnt that emotional reaction with no manipulation on the creators part? All entertainment forged emotion is manipulated, because it isn't real. Another great example of genuine emotion in games is SOTC and Aggro. That horse man. Those feels. But that was manipulation through and through. It all is. But that in itself is an artform. Its good shit. Whether through level design, dialogue, cutscenes, or even just the passage of time in co-op, you're always being manipulated. Thats essentially what videogames are and any entertainment that makes you feel something, other than perhaps directionless sandboxes.

There is a difference.
If someone is trying to depict, explore or shine a mirror on human experience through a medium such as gaming then that is different to someone trying to directly manipulate the audience's emotions.

Take your shadow of the colossus example. The intention of the developers was to depict the horse as realistically as possible, and the relationship between the horse and wander as natuarally and believably as possible. It makes sense in context of the situation that the two would develop a relationship. The fact that you feel emotions when certain events happen is down to the excellent design.
That is different to the developer creating a scenario with the sole intention of eliciting a response from the audience.

I am not saying Journey is doing one or the other, but there is a difference between depicting something and forcing something.

 

[rosaceadude2112]

What do you mean "real narrative thread?" The entire Qatsi trilogy has a very distinct, at times heavy-handed, narrative thread running through its entirety.

You're absolutely right. I really should've said plot.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

It also won a load of other awards from IGN (Best OST/ Best PS3 game)

Congrats TGC

nothing riles up gaf like lists. it's gonna be rough this year with walking dead and journey winning a lot of stuff.

 

[Zia]

You're absolutely right. I really should've said plot.

I love the film(s) too, so I was like, "Huh?" : )

 

[MrCookiepants]

I predicted this a few weeks ago. Totally deserved too. I'll never forget that first playthrough.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Nah. Journey, Fez, Trials Evo, Mark of the Ninja, To the Moon, Velocity, The Walking Dead, Lone Survivor, Hotline Miami, ZombiU, FTL, Spelunky HD, Super Hexagon, tons of great stuff outside of the mass market. Though there have been some good games there as well. Mario U might not win most most original game, but it plays damn well for example. Also really enjoyed Borderlands 2 and Sleeping Dogs, to name but two. But it's definitely the year of the downloadable game.

It was a bad year for AAA titles while the smaller indie/digital stuff was great.

This is the first year I can say I've played more of these titles than the big games. I just had no burning interest in most of the sequel based shooter titles this year. I think my first $60 retail purchase of 2012 was forza horizon.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

Journey!

Well deserved.

 

[Derrick01]

I was going to say keep playing because it gets much better and will probably blow your mind with its twists and turns, its outrageous themes and concepts and the way it uses branching paths to tell a story.

But then I looked back at some of your posts and see you dont like reading. You should probably quit now.

I can deal with reading when there's a video game behind it. Some of my favorite games are classic crpgs like planescape which is almost all dialogue. My problem that grates on me is what I said about this game, when there's pointless filler dialogue.

 

[HueyFreeman]

Probably not. I didn't get it when people were telling me floating around as a Flower was some enlightening experience either. It's like people who go to art museums and can get some profound meaning out of a still picture, I'll never get that.

I appreciate you're being really forthcoming in this thread - a lot of people are afraid or intimidated to say something like that - and I'm definitely not trying to patronize here, so hopefully you don't take it that way, but I really think you'd enjoy developing more of a sense of abstraction - taking something at more than face value, taking the defined and making it conceptual and often more than what it initially seems. I'm not saying you have to make every experience into an intellectual wankfest, but that's key to any great book, painting, song, movie, or (IMO) video game, and it's definitely key to enjoying Flower and Journey. It can really lead to a deeper, more enjoyable experience of any piece of media, and I'm really not of the opinion that there's anyone one earth who "can't" do it.

 

[Satchel]

The reactions would be pretty funny I bet.

Why? I'm completely expecting it to be Top 3 here at worst.

 

[paperheart]

YAY! Glad to hear that Journey is getting the recognition it deserves.

 

[Derrick01]

I appreciate you're being really forthcoming in this thread - a lot of people are afraid or intimidated to say something like that - and I'm definitely not trying to patronize here, so hopefully you don't take it that way, but I really think you'd enjoy developing more of a sense of abstraction - taking something at more than face value, taking the defined and making it conceptual and often more than what it initially seems. I'm not saying you have to make every experience into an intellectual wankfest, but that's key to any great book, painting, song, movie, or (IMO) video game, and it's definitely key to enjoying Flower and Journey. It can really lead to a deeper, more enjoyable experience of any piece of media, and I'm really not of the opinion that there's anyone one earth who "can't" do it.

Nah it's cool I get what you're saying. My issue that I was talking about is more limited to just art, something about paintings and talking about them puts me to sleep. I don't like reading books but like I said previously in this thread I got mostly As in honors english classes so I can certainly put up with it and understand them. I just prefer to play games and watch movies/TV shows as they're more visual. I'm more impressed with what can actually be shown over what I have to pretend to see.

 

[Rubius]

There's no difference at all.

There is.
The same way a good horror movie will make you scare by the ambiance and atmosphere, and a bad horror movie will simply put jump scare every 5 min.

 

[krYlon]

I can deal with reading when there's a video game behind it. Some of my favorite games are classic crpgs like planescape which is almost all dialogue. My problem that grates on me is what I said about this game, when there's pointless filler dialogue.

If you like planescape for the story, then I see no reason why you would not like this. Stick with it, trust me.

 

[Odrion]

I can dig it. I think I lost a bet though.

 

[shira]

Disclaimer: I am IGN's mobile games editor. Thought NeoGAF might be curious about the winners. IGN's overall picks for 2012 Game of the Year are now live:

BEST OVERALL GAME: Journey

I don't like the precedence this is setting.

If a gaf member posts it fine, but IGN advertising IGN on GAF with disclaimer.

Not what I browse GAF for.

 

[Derrick01]

If you like planescape for the story, then I see no reason why you would not like this. Stick with it, trust me.

Oh I am. It's not horrible or anything like that. It's only when those moments come up that it gets annoying.

 

[AwShucks]

But it's not a game. It's a walking simulator on the same tier as Dear Esther.

It has collectibles. It has puzzles. It's a game. About 100x more of a game than The Walking Dead (which I love as well but should not have gotten GOTY)

 

[Rubius]

It has collectibles. It has puzzles. It's a game. About 100x more of a game than The Walking Dead (which I love as well but should not have gotten GOTY)

Ultra Linear games are still games. Dear Esther is still a "game" in my book, the same way a movie with only a black screen and somebody whispering something for 14 hours is a movie.

 

[Corto]

There is.
The same way a good horror movie will make you scare by the ambiance and atmosphere, and a bad horror movie will simply put jump scare every 5 min.

They're both manipulating you, in both cases you are being directed to feel a predetermined way.

 

[SentientStone]

There is.
The same way a good horror movie will make you scare by the ambiance and atmosphere, and a bad horror movie will simply put jump scare every 5 min.

But which is more manipulative in this case? Is it not the more subtle ambience atmospheric scare that is more subtle and manipulative? The difference is not in which is manipulative and which is not, but in which is doing a better job at manipulating your emotions.

 

[Rubius]

They're both manipulating you, in both cases you are being directed to feel a predetermined way.

Except one is doing the good way, and the other the bad way.

Here Friday by Rebecca Black by Matt Mullholland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxleH60hDJY
This make you sad by the context, imagery and tone.

This is a video of Pikachu loving Ketchup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRO8H8QIdck
It simply use music to tell you how to feel.

Good and Bad manipulation if you wish.

But which is more manipulative in this case? Is it not the more subtle ambience atmospheric scare that is more subtle and manipulative? The difference is not in which is manipulative and which is not, but in which is doing a better job at manipulating your emotions.

I prefer a movie that set a horror tone like Paranormal Activities 1 or Amnesia than something that shove the horror in your face, like Paranormal Activities 4 or FEAR. Both make you scare, but one is because you are scared. The other is because you have something rushing at the camera with a giant noise.

 

[The Nature Roy]

Mark of the Ninja is getting robbed all over the place.

Playing through this for the first time now. Such an awesome game.

 

[Aruarian Reflection]

Does Journey actually have gameplay?

Questionable. You can watch a Journey playthrough on Youtube and get the same experience

 

[NBtoaster]

Nah. Journey, Fez, Trials Evo, Mark of the Ninja, To the Moon, Velocity, The Walking Dead, Lone Survivor, Hotline Miami, ZombiU, FTL, Spelunky HD, Super Hexagon, tons of great stuff outside of the mass market. Though there have been some good games there as well. Mario U might not win most most original game, but it plays damn well for example. Also really enjoyed Borderlands 2 and Sleeping Dogs, to name but two. But it's definitely the year of the downloadable game.

Downloadable games can be great but IMO they're not something that can astonish and prop up an entire year. Especially when most only last a few hours.

The 'AAA' stuff really dropped the ball this year.

 

[Derrick01]

Mark of the Ninja is getting robbed all over the place.

It is indeed being overlooked for lesser stealth games. Whether it's Dishonored or the few that are actually praising Hitman Absolution.

 

[pargonta]

Questionable. You can watch a Journey playthrough on Youtube and get the same experience

hmm i don't know, can i play tag and hide and seek with another person by watching a youtube video?

 

[Uno Venova]

Why? I'm completely expecting it to be Top 3 here at worst.

MGS4 reactions are funny, the reactions in here are funny, should be if Journey wins too. I expect TWD to win though.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Questionable. You can watch a Journey playthrough on Youtube and get the same experience

You can do the same thing with a 100 hour RPG too.