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[Grampa Simpson]

Just wait for iSuppli to tell us a couple of weeks after launch. If you feel that $230 is too much then don't buy one. The rest of us will enjoy the increased availability.

 

[Polari]

There is only factual value based on parts - what you're talking about is what people will pay for, which by extension is the absolute value any business can decide to charge for their product. Doesn't make it a good value.

What are you even talking about? Value exists in utility, not production costs. Are you seriously suggesting otherwise?

 

[Amir0x]

What are you even talking about? Value exists in utility, not production costs. Are you seriously suggesting otherwise?

Like I said: If a company can sell something that costs them 100 dollars to make for 600 dollars - more power to them. But the value is still a ****ing joke then, and that's the end of story. Seems like there are more than a few blind consumers anyway. Seems the case is same here... justification based on vague "fun points", "potential", "what other companies are ripping people off for", instead of "well, I can buy systems for 100 bucks cheaper that offer a far more robust library and is only slightly less powerful!"

Then, it's all down to how much you're willing to pay for the 'potential', and that new controller... which is pretty much anything for most hardcore nintendo fans here. But in the end, the value would still suck.

Anyway, that's hypothetical... Wii being $230 is annoying, not anything worth complaining over.

 

[Archie]

$229 is higher than I anticipated, but I am still getting one. It'll be hard to resist Trauma Center, Rayman 4, Zelda TP and EXCITE TRUCK

 

[Y2Kev]

I would say PS3 has tremendous value...but it's at a very high price.

Wii has a lesser "value" but it's an affordable price.

I'm only basing this on what each part is worth. Other people could potentially value things differently.

 

[Saoh]

Wii Sports. $49.99

You ain't gettin no fing games with the Wii. Best shot is begging Nintendo for a demo disc. Which i don't think they will do either for some reason.

why? i see that as a possible scenario, but they want people to play their machine. wii sports would be the best demo game people could show to their friends, and get them to buy a Wii.

playing = believing is a lie? :'(

 

[Xdrive05]

I'm definitely getting one, but probably not until next March or shortly after.

So when can we expect all the confusion to clear up? I remember "no new Zelda info until..." was it September? Maybe that's when we'll have a definite announcement.

 

[PantherLotus]

I'm pleased with this price, assuming it comes with 2 controllers. Hoping for anything more is ridiculous.

 

[Mashing]

The fact remains that none of you know exactly what it costs to manufacture a Wii so all this is is just a bunch of talking heads spouting nonsense. Then again I guess that's the definition of an internet forum.

 

[Polari]

Like I said: If a company can sell something that costs them 100 dollars to make for 600 dollars - more power to them. But the value is still a ****ing joke then, and that's the end of story. Seems like there are more than a few blind consumers anyway. Seems the case is same here... justification based on vague "fun points", "potential", "what other companies are ripping people off for", instead of "well, I can buy systems for 100 bucks cheaper that offer a far more robust library and is only slightly less powerful!"

That isn't value though.

 

[Chris Remo]

Yes, based on parts. If a company can sell something worth $100 for $600, more power to them - but the value is still a joke then. Because there are dumb consumers, or consumers that feel they'd pay anything, does not mean that the objective value is anything but shit in that case. Obviously, this is an extreme example but the center is clear.

Of course, I'm talking to a society that'd pay 600 dollars for brand name glasses that cost 80 bucks to make

That's not what value is. If somebody makes a device that cures cancer and it costs them $100 to make but they sell it to a hospital for $600, that's still a pretty incredible value. On the other side of a coin, if a console has amazing "parts" but is not fun at all and has no support, that's a horrible value no matter what the price. There is no such thing as "objective value," period.

Furthermore, a console that costs $100 in parts and assembly labor didn't cost $100 to "make." There's R&D, design, testing, the support that comes after the machine ships, etc. Those are not easily quantifiable on a per-unit basis.

 

[Oblivion]

I thought that if you rotate the wiimote and hold it with both hands it acts as somewhat of a classic controller? maybe, i'm wrong...

I guess you can, but even then it'd only be limited to NES games. While it may seem the classic controller would go against what Nintendo is planning, I would say it would be a worse idea to not give the developers the option of making a traditional game with that pad. It should be an "And" system, not "or".

 

[Dalthien]

I'm surprised more people aren't discussing the production number aspect of these rumours. I mean, we already knew that the Wii price was going to fall somewhere between $200 - $250, so the $229 rumour isn't really out-of-line with what we already knew.

But the suggestion that Nintendo is ramping up production to ship 5.5 million units by the end of year... That would be pretty remarkable if it turns out to be true. It took MS eight months to reach 5 million X360 shipped, and it looks like Nintendo might fly by that number in only two months. If this rumour turns out to be true, then Nintendo must be getting some pretty strong feedback from retailers in order to be so aggressive with their early shipments.

 

[Xdrive05]

I'm pleased with this price, assuming it comes with 2 controllers. Hoping for anything more is ridiculous.

Agreed. Part of me was afraid that Ninty would pull a fast one and launch at $299 with one controller, just because they're Nintendo and they know they'll have the hype to sell units at that price. So right now I'm hoping and, dare I say praying, that this news is pretty accurate.

 

[EviLore]

The fact remains that none of you know exactly what it costs to manufacture a Wii so all this is is just a bunch of talking heads spouting nonsense. Then again I guess that's the definition of an internet forum.

It's a discussion about a rumor...on a videogame message board on the internet. If this confounds you, maybe you're in the wrong place.

 

[lamotia]

you do realize you're actually fighting over a rumor right?

 

[NomarTyme]

Of course! That's what make it all the fun. :lol

 

[Amir0x]

That isn't value though. Are you seriously suggesting that a shirt with a nice cut that costs $100 is of the same value as a shirt that costs $50, is a terrible fit and has some gaudy pattern, because they cost the same to manufacture?

This is not analgous. We're paying for easily definable things that have very real prices associated with them - for a certain chip set with a certain level of power, for the amount of controllers, for whatever. Certainly, as I said, you could determine that it has some vague "niceness" over your competition that should allow you to charge 100 or 200 dollars more, but then the value would STILL be shit. If a shirt was gaudy, and didn't fit well... then it's not well designed or "worth" what the cost of its parts were.

That's not what value is. If somebody makes a device that cures cancer and it costs them $100 to make but they sell it to a hospital for $600, that's still a pretty incredible value. On the other side of a coin, if a console has amazing "parts" but is not fun at all and has no support, that's a horrible value no matter what the price. There is no such thing as "objective value," period.

Furthermore, a console that costs $100 in parts and assembly labor didn't cost $100 to "make." There's R&D, design, testing, the support that comes after the machine ships, etc. Those are not easily quantifiable on a per-unit basis.

We're not talking about saving lives here, hombre. It's a very simple process to determine value:

-> What is the system offering to me
-> What do other, viable alternative systems offer to me

These things also factor into 360 and PS3, and they obviously cost a lot more for it. The value of the PARTS is extremely important because it will tell you just how much a company enjoys ripping one off... it also determines if you're getting a deal. Now I can say "wow, this is a last gen system but it's SO FUN so I'd pay an extra 200", that's nice... and it certainly might sell. But it's a shitty value.

 

[Xdrive05]

I'm surprised more people aren't discussing the production number aspect of these rumours. I mean, we already knew that the Wii price was going to fall somewhere between $200 - $250, so the $229 rumour isn't really out-of-line with what we already knew.

But the suggestion that Nintendo is ramping up production to ship 5.5 million units by the end of year. That would be pretty remarkable if it turns out to be true. It took MS eight months to reach 5 million X360 shipped, and it looks like Nintendo might fly by that number in only two months. If this rumour turns out to be true, then Nintendo must be getting some pretty strong feedback from retailers in order to be so aggressive with their early shipments.

Yup. But with the hardware being a superset of the current one, they shouldn't have any yield issues with the processors and the rest of the guts. The controller's a different story of course, and if (when - as all companies miss this mark) they fail to meet that mark, it'll likely be due to the new tech in the controllers.

 

[Mashing]

It's a discussion about a rumor...on a videogame message board on the internet. If this confounds you, maybe you're in the wrong place.

Which is what my last sentence stated as plain as day

Still, sometimes I wish people would take the company stance and not comment on "speculation or rumor". Especially Nintendo based rumors as they generally spiral out of control.

 

[Chris Remo]

We're not talking about saving lives here, hombre. It's a very simple process to determine value:

-> What is the system offering to me
-> What do other, viable alternative systems offer to me

See, this part is right.

These things also factor into 360 and PS3, and they obviously cost a lot more for it. The value of the PARTS is extremely important because it will tell you just how much a company enjoys ripping one off... it also determines if you're getting a deal. Now I can say "wow, this is a last gen system but it's SO FUN so I'd pay an extra 200", that's nice... and it certainly might sell. But it's a shitty value.

This part is wrong.

Somehow you keep confusing "ratio of consumer price to manufacturer price" with "value," and I'm sorry but that is simply incorrect. It might be an important factor TO YOU PERSONALLY in your own personal buying decision, but it's not any kind of objective value WHATSOEVER.

 

[ChaosDent]

I would be reluctant to say that there isn't enough new tech in the Wii to justify a $130 price increase over the Gamecube, it has Bluetooth, WiFi, double the RAM, internal flash storage, upgraded and re-engineered (for low power mode) CPU and GPU and a two size slot loading disc drive. I wouldn't be surprised if the $30 is just gravy though. The core audience (myself included) will pay it without a thought throughout the launch period, and it gives them some wiggle room for competitive price drops.

 

[Amir0x]

Somehow you keep confusing "ratio of consumer price to manufacturer price" with "value," and I'm sorry but that is simply incorrect. It might be an important factor TO YOU PERSONALLY in your own personal buying decision, but it's not any kind of objective value WHATSOEVER.

It IS value. You can bold, italicize that shit to the good blue moon comes out, but that's the central of the matter. When you got other systems in various price rangers offering far more, or almost the same for far less then it's a failed value. It always comes down to people trying to JUSTIFY the price, because they sure as **** can't based on what the thing contains. And when you're forced to try to justify it, it's already a failure.

 

[Chris Remo]

It IS value. You can bold, italicize that shit to the good blue moon comes out, but that's the central of the matter. When you got other systems in various price rangers offering far more, or almost the same for far less then it's a failed value. It always comes down to people trying to JUSTIFY the price, because they sure as **** can't based on what the thing contains. And when you're doing the justifying, it has already failed.

Buying EVERYTHING is a matter of justifying price. That's how supply and demand works, and that's what determines value. You have to justify what you're getting from the product versus how much of your own money you are willing to give away to get it. That has nothing to do with the "parts" inside of it, unless that happens to be an important factor to you personally. If enough people decide that what they get out of a Wii console was worth giving away $229, guess what? The thing is worth $229. That's just how it works.

 

[Amir0x]

Buying EVERYTHING is a matter of justifying price. That's how supply and demand works, and that's what determines value. You have to justify what you're getting from the product versus how much of your own money you are willing to give away to get it. That has nothing to do with the "parts" inside of it, unless that happens to be an important factor to you personally. If enough people decide that what they get out of a Wii console was worth giving away $229, guess what? The thing is worth $229. That's just how it works.

But it's not, as we all know. It's worth far less than X, it just means there are idiot consumers and a company willing to capitalize on them.

 

[Polari]

This is not analgous. We're paying for easily definable things that have very real prices associated with them - for a certain chip set with a certain level of power, for the amount of controllers, for whatever. Certainly, as I said, you could determine that it has some vague "niceness" over your competition that should allow you to charge 100 or 200 dollars more, but then the value would STILL be shit. If a shirt was gaudy, and didn't fit well... then it's not well designed or "worth" what the cost of its parts were. And a shirt only functions to cover your body and be attractive.

If the cheaper shirt is so hideous that I'm never going to wear it, it's of no value to me whatsoever, is it? The result being that the more expensive shirt is infinitely more valuable (discounting the possibility of re-sale etc.) You seem to be confused as to what value actually is.

But it's not. It's worth far less than $229, it just means their are idiot consumers and a company willing to capitalize on them.

It costs far less than $229 to manufacture. If it's worth far less than $229, why are you buying one?

 

[gutter_trash]

These things also factor into 360 and PS3, and they obviously cost a lot more for it. The value of the PARTS is extremely important because it will tell you just how much a company enjoys ripping one off... it also determines if you're getting a deal. Now I can say "wow, this is a last gen system but it's SO FUN so I'd pay an extra 200", that's nice... and it certainly might sell. But it's a shitty value.

hence, the cheap affordable BlueRay drive inside the PS3, Cel Processor, HDD, backward compatibility = $599.99

will the funnes factor of the PS3 give you the funness you want? that's subjective.
The point is the PS3 at it's monstrous price justifies it with it's tech claiming it to be too cheap for what it offers.

now as for the Wii,, it's a GC 1.5 with sensory remotes. It's the Xbox 1.5 power aspect of the GC that makes us questionners question the Wii's freakin' price

 

[Ashodin]

Somehow you keep confusing "ratio of consumer price to manufacturer price" with "value," and I'm sorry but that is simply incorrect. It might be an important factor TO YOU PERSONALLY in your own personal buying decision, but it's not any kind of objective value WHATSOEVER.

It's okay Chris - GAF is used to amir0x infusing his own personal values into arguments, making them seem right.

But I gotta agree with you man - ratio =/ value, unlike amir0x' thinking.

 

[Chris Remo]

But it's not, as we all know. It's worth far less than X, it just means their are idiot consumers and a company willing to capitalize on them.

It's not what? It's not priced close to the manufacturing cost? That's all you can say about it. That's nothing to do with value.

 

[Amir0x]

It costs far less than $229 to manufacture.

Yup. Thus, the price is not right for the value since I know the company could offer it to me for substantially less. But as I said, it's only an annoyance... it's still cheap enough that it's not worth complaining about.

It's not what? It's not priced close to the manufacturing cost? That's all you can say about it. That's nothing to do with value.

Yup. Not priced close, and has everything to do with the value as I know a company ripping people off is not offering a good value. Pretty simple stuff, actually.

But, I know Nintendo fans will buy anything all that - justification in POTENTIAL and FUNMOTION. So the value is to THE MOON!!11

 

[Aeana]

IGN am hatin' Neogaf!


anyway, MRyan's analysis


229? what the ****zors? 229 is cool if it includes 2 controllers, a classic controller, and wii sports. but i have a feeling it's just 1 controller, and if so, **** THAT. 230 my ass. I'll wait for the 200 dollar editionz.

but launching in white = good. I'm so torn. I think black would/will look a little better, tho.

Why do people keep posting stuff like that?
Do you really think you deserve like $100 value just because you have to pay an 'extra' (the extra is in quotes because it's not like a price was ever confirmed in the first place) $30?

$30 is $30. Probably what the Wii controllers will cost. So, hoping that you get an extra controller is perfectly fair, but all of that other stuff is nuts.

 

[Johnas]

val·ue

An amount, as of goods, services, or money, considered to be a fair and suitable equivalent for something else; a fair price or return.

Worth in usefulness or importance to the possessor; utility or merit.

 

[PantherLotus]

Can you imagine the uproar if it was priced 234.99? Numbers have a way of looking funny in one's mind when another number was expected. Read: PS3 sticker shock. Releasing that info so early will work extremely well for sony (not unlike Nintendo's megaton Wii renaming), while the late price news might also work for nintendo, but on the other spectrum.

Now they just have to justify their price to the public, which shouldn't be too hard sitting next to a $600 hd dvd player. I mean blue ray.

 

[Xdrive05]

This place is going to explode when we get OFFICIAL details.

:lol

Anything Nintendo is such a touchy subject around here.

 

[Chris Remo]

Yup. Not priced close, and has everything to do with the value as I know a company ripping people off is not offering a good value. Pretty simple stuff, actually.

Okay, once again, you're making this leap to an incorrect definition of value.

But, I know Nintendo fans will buy anything all that - justification in POTENTIAL and FUNMOTION. So the value is to THE MOON!!11

lolz oh man burn

val·ue

An amount, as of goods, services, or money, considered to be a fair and suitable equivalent for something else; a fair price or return.

Worth in usefulness or importance to the possessor; utility or merit.

Thank you.

 

[Polari]

But, I know Nintendo fans will buy anything all that - justification in POTENTIAL and FUNMOTION. So the value is to THE MOON!!11

Oh, great argument.

 

[Johnas]

A number of big-name publishers are set to release their Wii games in mid-to-late October, which suggests that a system debut could not be that far off. And several insiders have told IGN that Tuesday, November 2 could, in fact, be the big day.

Sorry if I missed this earlier, but are they saying that games could be on the shelves for a couple of weeks before the system is?

I really had my heart set on that October 2 rumor before, I'm so ready to play Zelda.

 

[JJConrad]

why? i see that as a possible scenario, but they want people to play their machine. wii sports would be the best demo game people could show to their friends, and get them to buy a Wii.

playing = believing is a lie? :'(

While I like free demos as much as anyone, I don't think they matter much at launch. They don't sell a system because people have to buy it in order to play the demo ... they only sell games. Chances are, when a person buys a new console they will also buy a few games with it, so there really is no need to pack in a demo so that people have something to show to their friends. Besides, hasn't Nintendo been talking about putting demos online.

I'm surprised more people aren't discussing the production number aspect of these rumours. I mean, we already knew that the Wii price was going to fall somewhere between $200 - $250, so the $229 rumour isn't really out-of-line with what we already knew.

But the suggestion that Nintendo is ramping up production to ship 5.5 million units by the end of year... That would be pretty remarkable if it turns out to be true. It took MS eight months to reach 5 million X360 shipped, and it looks like Nintendo might fly by that number in only two months. If this rumour turns out to be true, then Nintendo must be getting some pretty strong feedback from retailers in order to be so aggressive with their early shipments.

This thread had only two possible outcomes. Once Amir0x entered, the likelihod of this being mostly about the shipment figures became zero. It's best to ignore him.

Weren't the initial shipment figures 6 million by March? Does anyone know how many that meant by the end of the year? I thought it was 4 million. I'd guess the breakdown would be 2 mil in NA, 2 mil in Japan, and 1.5 mil in EU.

This could explain why so many western publishers have been dumping everything they can on the system so early. They may be seeing the same responces.

 

[Amir0x]

Okay, once again, you're making this leap to an incorrect definition of value.

Seems pretty correct to me - $230 ain't fair OR a suitable equivalent for the sum of its part.

lolz oh man burn

Nothing to "burn", it's the truth. We've come to a point in this thread where the argument is relied purely, now, on how much FUN it's going to bring for this 'value'. Which, as I said, there's a segment of consumers that will buy shit for ANYTHING. So there's no use even discussing what makes the system worth or not worth it, since there's no scale for value.

Excepting, of course, we have a barely more powerful than last-gen system being sold for $230 when other actual last-gen systems are sold for $99 and $129 of course with tremendously more robust libraries. But hey! Funmotion.

See, we have a scale for value. We know what parts cost, we know what power means for games. We don't have to play this game where we're trying to be like 'oh well, value for someone!'

 

[Johnas]

Thank you.

:lol I was actually gonna use that to show how I side with Ami on this topic, but I'll let you guys work it out. But each side could use it in its defense if they wanted.

 

[Polari]

Seems pretty correct to me - $230 ain't fair OR a suitable equivalent for the sum of its part.

Oh ok. Good luck making your own Wii for under $230 then. Once again, value exists only in terms of consumers. When you go shopping, do you seriously judge prices in terms of manufacturing costs, rather than in terms of utility to you?

 

[Y2Kev]

:lol I was actually gonna use that to show how I side with Ami on this topic, but I'll let you guys work it out. But each side could use it in its defense if they wanted.

I actually think the first definition applies to ami, and the second to Chris Remo.

Ami is saying its not a fair price for the goods rendered. Chris is saying it is WORTH it because of what it offers as a device.

 

[Chris Remo]

Seems pretty correct to me - $230 ain't fair OR a suitable equivalent for the sum of its part.

Man you are obsessed with "parts." It didn't say "the sum of its parts," it said the thing itself. That consists of many other things than the physical parts that comprise it.

Nothing to "burn", it's the truth. We've come to a point in this thread where the argument is relied purely, now, on how much FUN it's going to bring for this 'value'. Which, as I said, there's a segment of consumers that will buy shit for ANYTHING. So there's no use even discussing what makes the system worth or nor worth it, since there's no scale for value.

Excepting, of course, we have a barely more powerful than last-gen system being sold for $230 when other actual last-gen systems are sold for $99 and $129 of course with tremendously more robust libraries. But hey! Funmotion.

See, we have a scale for value. We know what parts cost, we know what power means for games. We don't have to play this game where we're trying to be like 'oh well, value for someone!'

Man, it's not a "game." It's basic economics. It doesn't just apply to this console. It applies to every console, and every single other product in the world. We don't have a "scale for value." There is no such thing, and if there was it sure as hell wouldn't be based solely on "parts."

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

Seems pretty correct to me - $230 ain't fair OR a suitable equivalent for the sum of its part.

You would make a terrible economist.

 

[Amir0x]

Also, again, for the record... I actually don't think Nintendo is going out of its way to rip us off at $230 provided it has an extra controller. It's just an annoyance, not something worth complaining about in the end as it's still very cheap and there are noteworthy benefits over last gen systems obviously.

When you go shopping, do you seriously judge prices in terms of manufacturing costs, rather than in terms of utility to you?

Yes, because it's about getting the best possible deal for the "utility" I am after.

 

[gutter_trash]

hey Y2Kevbug11 , why the hell is Tidus (in your avatar) pulling off Sonic Adventure 2-ish grinds on rails side to side like that?

 

[Chris Remo]

I actually think the first definition applies to ami, and the second to Chris Remo.

Ami is saying its not a fair price for the goods rendered. Chris is saying it is WORTH it because of what it offers as a device.

He's not saying it isn't a fair price for the goods rendered. He's saying it isn't a fair price for the parts that make up that device. That's totally different, because with nearly identical "parts" you could two very different machines depending on things like who's supporting the console, how it plays, what type of games are going to be on it, and a ton of other factors. For somebody who is not going to enjoy the Wii controller at all, no price is a good value because they won't get their money's worth. For somebody who does believe they would enjoy it, the value depends on how much enjoyment they will get out of it. That's how it works, that's how everything else works too.

 

[Y2Kev]

hey Y2Kevbug11 , why the hell is Tidus (in your avatar) pulling off Sonic Adventure 2-ish grinds on rails side to side like that?

Have you played the game?

 

[datruth29]

For what I am getting from this, Amri0x is the type of guy who would buy a Creative mp3 player over an Ipod, and for that sir I thank you! Unfortunatly, the world doesnt work the way you do. If it did, we wouldnt have to the prices we do. It sucks to be on the end of the bell curve.

 

[Kaworu]

DSL

129USD--------------->149€

Wii

¿229USD--------------->249€?

We got ****ed.