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[Venfayth]

The future is a train coming directly towards you and everyone you care about extremely fast. How can you not care about it? How can it not be the biggest thing on your mind? How can you play on the train tracks and act like everything is fine?

How can you sit here and type on NeoGAF when there are millions of people dying of starvation in Africa? Go, help them!

These kinds of existential problems ignore vicinity and relevance. Just as much as you can't end global poverty you also cannot change the fate you're seemingly consumed by.

 

[Kinitari]

No, I say agnostic because I have no idea.

So you aren't sure if a God exists or not? I think I have trouble with this statement because I have trouble distinguishing it from a lack of belief. Like... I have no idea if there is secretly a group of aliens inside the moon, but if someone asks me if I believe there is, I say 'no, I don't'. Is there something different about how you approach the idea of God?

 

[Fenderputty]

Imagine if the OP actually went down the path of determinism which lead him to fatalism.

 

[Lothar]

How can you sit here and type on NeoGAF when there are millions of people dying of starvation in Africa? Go, help them!

These kinds of existential problems ignore vicinity and relevance. Just as much as you can't end global poverty you also cannot change the fate you're seemingly consumed by.

Yes, you can't stop the train coming, what does that have to do with anything? That doesn't make the train better or make playing on the train tracks any more meaningful.

 

[quackamole]

Be happy you didn't have to waste sunday mornings at a church.

 

[Zeuanimals]

No, I say agnostic because I have no idea.

You don't know but what do you believe? Knowing something and believing something are two completely different things. Simply being an agnostic isn't actually a thing since it just means you're uncertain. You can be uncertain and hold a belief. If I'm uncertain about whether or not a puddle is safe to drink from, I can still hold the belief that it's not safe. Unless you don't know what you believe in which case you don't know what you're thinking.

 

[Harlock]

 

[Venfayth]

Yes, you can't stop the train coming, what does that have to do with anything? That doesn't make the train better or make playing on the train tracks any more meaningful.

You cannot change inevitability, because of that meaning has nothing to do with permanence. If you could change inevitability then meaning would have something to do with permanence.

 

[Gravy Boat]

I've identified as an atheist for as long as I can remember and I've honestly never sat down and panicked or got upset about the prospect of no after life or salvation or higher power or whatever. The questions of 'where did we come from' and 'what happened after' never enter my mind until someone else brings it up first. I guess I'm just wired to not worry or focus on stuff that has absolutely no affect on me. I just don't believe a God exists and leave it at that.

I don't think any of your issues come from being an atheist.

 

[Zeuanimals]

I've identified as an atheist for as long as I can remember and I've honestly never sat down and panicked or got upset about the prospect of no after life or salvation or higher power or whatever. The questions of 'where did we come from' and 'what happened after' never enter my mind until someone else brings it up first. I guess I'm just wired to not worry or focus on stuff that has absolutely no affect on me. I just don't believe a God exists and leave it at that.

I don't think any of your issues come from being an atheist.

What really stumped me was learning more about determinism.

 

[Moosichu]

What really stumped me was learning more about determinism.

What do you mean? The lack of it in the real world? The fact that the Bible says the world is deterministic?

 

[Lothar]

You cannot change inevitability, because of that meaning has nothing to do with permanence. If you could change inevitability then meaning would have something to do with permanence.

Rearranging chairs on the titanic doesn't become meaningful because you can't stop the titanic from sinking.

 

[cyress8]

From the sound of it. You are lacking something that you can focus on. Oddly enough, going to church might be the help you need. My parents are heavy Christians and church will keep them preoccupied a good amount of time. It gives them something to focus on and meaning for existing. For me, as an atheist, I formed my own goals and trying my best to make a hi-tech home out of a house built in the 70s. Doing this just so my kids can have a cool ass house. Gives me focus and meaning.

Try finding something you enjoy and just focus on it. Keeps your mind occupied. Something you think won't give you actual joy can actually do it. But you won't know until you take that first step and try.

I did not think fixing up a house would be fun. Yet, I love going to Home Depot/Lowes and doing repairs on my off day.

 

[Moosichu]

Rearranging chairs on the titanic doesn't become meaningful because you can't stop the titanic from sinking.

But, even today by looking at the wreck of the titanic and more, the stories of the last moments of the titanic have had a huge effect. If someone did move fhe deck chairs of the titanic, the tiny scratches that would leave behind would still be present on the wreck today. And the position of the chairs on the wreck are as well.

 

[digdug2k]

I think some of the nicest advice I got when I got out of religion was not to embrace any labels. If you don't like being an atheist then... don't? If you can't accept it doesn't, there's nothing stopping you from believing life has a higher meaning, or that love is more than just chemical reactions in your brain. Spend some time thinking about what you actually believe if you let raw-scientific logic out the window. Its not going to kill you.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Rearranging chairs on the titanic doesn't become meaningful because you can't stop the titanic from sinking.

but it could allow more people to leave it.

 

[adj_noun]

I've identified as an atheist for as long as I can remember and I've honestly never sat down and panicked or got upset about the prospect of no after life or salvation or higher power or whatever.

When I was a kid I found that afterlives were things you really weren't supposed to examine too closely. Just something you were supposed to accept and be happy about.

That always bugged me, especially if you were supposed to spend eternity in the thing. I never did get a good answer to "do people in heaven remember people in hell".

 

[Sushi Nao]

Be gnostic! Recognize that the human brain has the chemical capacity for religious awe as an evolved response to the wonder and intricacy of the natural world. Once you find what gives you that awe response,

Fuckin revel in that shit

 

[Foffy]

I always roll my eyes at the "We are starstuff" quote

I'm dead if the elements aren't me, so to hell with them

What is "you" beyond wooly conceptions? What makes you somehow disconnected from that?

When we create the story of "me", we at the same time create the story of "not me". Without going to deep into this, look at your organism and see where you play this game. Are you the consciousness in the head, yet your heart is "not me" in some sense, as if it's an essential part yet not essentially "you"?

The fear of death always begins with the fear of "I" falling away. Look into what that honestly is, and you will see the smoke it is made of.

 

[Venfayth]

Rearranging chairs on the titanic doesn't become meaningful because you can't stop the titanic from sinking.

The scale, vicinity, and relevance of your metaphor doesn't match reality.

Generally speaking, we're not moments away from death. We're years away from death. If I'm on my deathbed playing chess, it matters less to me if I win or lose than if I win a chess tournament at age 30 when it could have a much more profound effect on the rest of my life.

Meaning has to be interpreted from the context. If you're looking at the history of the universe from beginning to end, then yes, most things in the middle don't matter. But when you zoom in to look at day to day life, the beginning and end don't even register on the radar. The closer you zoom in to life, the more meaning you will find.

 

[Lothar]

The scale, vicinity, and relevance of your metaphor doesn't match reality.

Generally speaking, we're not moments away from death. We're years away from death.

You don't know that. Even if it was true, the last 10-15 years went by like nothing. Life spans are short. A speeding train heading towards us is exactly what it feels like.

But, even today by looking at the wreck of the titanic and more, the stories of the last moments of the titanic have had a huge effect. If someone did move fhe deck chairs of the titanic, the tiny scratches that would leave behind would still be present on the wreck today. And the position of the chairs on the wreck are as well.

But the people looking at the wreck of the titantic are also in a sinking ship heading to their deaths.

 

[TheWorthyEdge]

What's wrong with therapy? A therapist can be secular counselor. Same as people going to priest for moral or life advice.

OP sounds depressed, therapy could help. What's wrong with that?

The way he said it made me seem to believe that he was mocking Christians, and believers of higher beings by telling them to get therapy. I don't think OP sounds depressed, I think he sounds more self reflective and regretful.

 

[Intheflorsh]

Tangent, but man does it drive me nuts that people still treat atheism and agnosticism like they are two separate and mutually exclusive philosophies. If you don't currently believe in a god and you also acknowledge that technically there is no way to know for sure, congrats: you're both.

Edit: Case in point, see below.

 

[Netherscourge]

I don't like atheism because it rules out something that you can't 100% rule out; not because of magic or spells or Jesus or midichlorians, but because time is limitless in both directions and even if you are 100% science-oriented, you'll never be able to find or prove or disprove an ultimate origin to everything. Because science itself doesn't allow something to exist from nothingness. It's the ultimate paradox. Time can't be infinite and finite at the time; therefore, there must be some uber-complicated, higher process or system at work that we'll never understand with our scientific methodology.

Atheism forces you to ignore things you can't believe or prove, which itself is as ignorant as dreaming up a god and making him the be-all, end-all.

So, I'm agnostic. I don't believe in any of the religions or gods man has dreamed up. I do subscribe to science for almost all of my questions. However, there are questions that science can not answer and that's where some ...OTHER... answer may lie. What is that "OTHER" thing? I have no idea. Could be inter-gravo-time-dimensional beings. Might just be a computer program. Who knows. But I can't just refuse the possibility because I can't prove it at this time.

 

[adj_noun]

Tangent, but man does it drive me nuts that people still treat atheism and agnosticism like they are two separate and mutually exclusive philosophies.

Yeah, I think the general populace still views atheism in general as gnostic atheism.

Then you have to have that whole conversation again.

 

[Gravy Boat]

I don't like atheism because it rules out something that you can't 100% rule out; not because of magic or spells or Jesus or midichlorians, but because time is limitless in both directions and even if you are 100% science-oriented, you'll never be able to find or prove or disprove an ultimate origin to everything. Because science itself doesn't allow something to exist from nothingness. It's the ultimate paradox. Time can't be infinite and finite at the time; therefore, there must be some uber-complicated, higher process or system at work that we'll never understand with our scientific methodology.

Atheism forces you to ignore things you can't believe or prove, which itself is as ignorant as dreaming up a god and making him the be-all, end-all.

So, I'm agnostic. I don't believe in any of the religions or gods man has dreamed up. I do subscribe to science for almost all of my questions. However, there are questions that science can not answer and that's where some ...OTHER... answer may lie. What is that "OTHER" thing? I have no idea. Could be inter-gravo-time-dimensional beings. Might just be a computer program. Who knows. But I can't just refuse the possibility because I can't prove it at this time.

You're not describing atheism or agnosticism correctly. Most atheists would be classified as agnostic atheists.

 

[Subitai]

OP, you might be ready to start reading CS Lewis, Pascal, and John Lennox.

 

[Netherscourge]

Tangent, but man does it drive me nuts that people still treat atheism and agnosticism like they are two separate and mutually exclusive philosophies. If you don't currently believe in a god and you also acknowledge that technically there is no way to know for sure, congrats: you're both.

Edit: Case in point, see below.

Atheism rules out a god though.

Agnosticism leaves the door open.

So, they are different at the core level.

 

[Intheflorsh]

Atheism rules out a god though.

Agnosticism leaves the door open.

So, they are different at the core level.

 

[Netherscourge]

You're not describing atheism or agnosticism correctly. Most atheists would be classified as agnostic atheists.

Agnosticism, to me, is not as finite as Atheism.

My definitions may be inaccurate, but that's how I've always looked at it.

 

[kavanf1]

I think GAF needs a Richard Dawkins thread.

Incidentally, you will find countless Gnostic Theists, but almost no Gnostic Atheists. Virtually every atheist is an Agnostic Atheist in relation to the existence of a creator god, because it's the only rational position to take.

 

[Netherscourge]

OT: This looks like a Dungeons and Dragons character alignment chart.

 

[Icanplaythat]

So you aren't sure if a God exists or not? I think I have trouble with this statement because I have trouble distinguishing it from a lack of belief. Like... I have no idea if there is secretly a group of aliens inside the moon, but if someone asks me if I believe there is, I say 'no, I don't'. Is there something different about how you approach the idea of God?

You don't know but what do you believe? Knowing something and believing something are two completely different things. Simply being an agnostic isn't actually a thing since it just means you're uncertain. You can be uncertain and hold a belief. If I'm uncertain about whether or not a puddle is safe to drink from, I can still hold the belief that it's not safe. Unless you don't know what you believe in which case you don't know what you're thinking.

Fair questions.

I was a defiant atheist my entire life, I didn't come to it in high school or college like most do, I have felt it since childhood. Recently, yes because of drugs, I have opened to the possibility of being wrong. I would say my views on the subject are fluid and uncertain. I got incredibly high and was convinced I was feeling or connecting to something. The revelations were too many and profound to be sourced solely from within. To be clear, when I say revelation, I mean questions that have haunted me being made understandable. Applying sociological and biological reasoning to the behavior of people whom may have harmed me, seeing things in a different light, finding what might be my true purpose. Only time will tell.

 

[Intheflorsh]

OT: This looks like a Dungeons and Dragons character alignment chart.

I'm a neutral, but lately I've been leaning more towards lawful.

 

[Gravy Boat]

Agnosticism, to me, is not as finite as Atheism.

My definitions may be inaccurate, but that's how I've always looked at it.

That's fine, as long as you're aware that you're incorrect.

In the real world you won't find many atheists who claim they know with 100% certainty that there is no god. Although it's not difficult to find a religious person who claims they know God exists.

 

[astroturfing]

I'm a theist, former atheist, but I'm not gonna try to convince you. That's not my style.

However, one thing that may help you is to understand that human beings are extremely tribal and social. Outside a few exceptions, we just don't do well without some sort of community or tribe.

Religion provides that sense of community for many.

If religion does not jive with your worldview, consider finding community outside of religion. There are many and the internet has made them easier to find.

which religion? it's so weird to talk about religion generally, as if they can all be correct..

 

[Kinitari]

That's fine, as long as you're aware that you're incorrect.

In the real world you won't find many atheists who claim they know with 100% certainty that there is no god. Although it's not difficult to find a religious person who claims they know God exists.

I think in the real world, you'd not find many people who were 100% certain about anything, which is why the whole agnostic thing always throws me for a loop.

Spoiler

except the whole, solipsistic, the only thing you know for certain is you exist thing, but I digress

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

A more in-depth reply because I really want to help.

I'm atheist and as well and I also hate it. I'm jealous of people who can believe. I've tried and I just can't. In my experience, an atheistic life without some kind of philosophy isn't a grounded one. I'm not saying this is true for all atheists, but it speaks true to my experience at least. You need something to keep you grounded and you need that third or maybe fourth "place" beyond home and work, where you can find a sense of community.

For an atheist there's surprisingly a few options:

western philosophy
eastern philosophy

Personally, I swing the Eastern philsophy way. Western philosophy never really spoke to what I was feeling as a human being in the way Taoism and Buddhism addressed.

I suggest getting the Tao Te Ching translation by Steve Mitchell and How to Practice: The Way to a Meaningful Life by the Dalai Lama. If you will it, you can get into these just for the philosophy, which is typically very practical. Belief in God is not necessary. Find a local Zen Buddhist temple and look into seeing if they have any meditation classes. You can usually drop by a Zen temple in the afternoon or morning to meditate. Dharma talks are typically on Sunday mornings. You can listen to the monk or guest give a talk on a specific topic. One time a guest talked about a friend's suicide and the anger and all the emotions that came from it, and how he managed to get past it. Or someone may ask the monk how to reconcile having a career that is at ends with their beliefs. I find the Dharma talks relatable and informative on living a more happy and fulfilled life.

There's ways to feel spiritual and connected to something even while being atheist. Give it a shot. It may fill in what you're seeking.

 

[Gravy Boat]

I think in the real world, you'd not find many people who were 100% certain about anything, which is why the whole agnostic thing always throws me for a loop.

Spoiler

except the whole, solipsistic, the only thing you know for certain is you exist thing, but I digress

True, but you'll find people whom will claim they are 100% certain even when they're not, which is something you rarely find an atheist doing outside of the Internet.

Saying you're an 'agnostic' means nothing. That just means you're unsure of something.

 

[Adam_Vania]

Levayan Satanism is a good thing to look into for atheists. i highly recommend the Satanic Bible. it doesn't care if you believe in a god or not. it is more of a free-spirit product of 60s sexual revolution w a somewhat sardonic and trolly take on traditional Christianity. which it is also fine with. a Satanist can believe whatever they want, so long as they respect the desires of others. this seems like a good philosophy.

in general atheists should probably do less grandstanding and more reading. if not in a "know thy enemy" kind of way then at least in order to better educate yourself on what all these people in the world are thinking (or not thinking about, u will probably find interesting alternate interpretations of the holy books ignored by mass marketed spoon-fed religious) and where they are coming from. you will come upon the history of politics, of art, of justice, of philosophy, of science, etc. all of it is rooted in the history of religion because there has never been a time when religion was not a part of recorded life.

 

[Always-honest]

I'll agree that ignorance can be bliss sometimes.

 

[Akainu]

I honestly don't understand how some people don't believe in God. I will never get it. I don't think a day passes where I don't admire this world and even the little things that sometimes I take for granted. Just think about how even the tiniest organisms have their own physiology. Even taking a biology class should leave no doubt that this universe was created.

If anything this shit is even more amazing knowing it happened on it's own.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

As an atheist, I envy those with faith - like the real believers who actually KNOW that what their ideas are true (even though I disagree with them). I don't see faith as a choice, whether it's in religion form or otherwise. I obtain information sourced from somebody else or from my own observations, and either I draw my conclusion or my gut tells me what to think. I'm sad that neither result in me thinking anything other than we are all alone, metaphorically speaking.

I wish I had faith, but I don't, so I'm left to envy those who do.

But of course, they don't know that. It has never been proven that any gods exist. There is to date no such thing as a gnostic theist.

 

[dragonyeuw]

Frankly, I've never felt more free and in control then when I let go of this notion that some unknown, unseen entity was in control of my life granting me favors if I prayed hard enough, or putting me through hardship as some kind of 'lesson'. I take responsibility for my actions and their consequences, good or bad.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

Come join me on the agnostic fence OP. It's great here. We can deny the existence of god as absurd, but at the same time recognise it's impossible to be sure, and so the possibility does exist.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Be happy I guess... ? I mean, death's coming. Think of it as sleeping. You won't even know it hit you.

Spoiler

When you go meet Saint Peter tell him you were a good guy.

 

[Pantaghana]

Something people don't seem to realize about gnosticism/agnosticism is that it is context sensitive.

When it comes to ancient Egyptian religions (Ra, Osiris, Isis, Set etc...), people today treat them as fictional characters no different than Spiderman, even though to believers back in the day it was a serious matter.
Today, in the context of ancient Egyptian gods, everyone is a gnostic atheist.
Same goes for old Greek, Roman and Norse pantheons, fictional characters, some of which fight side-by-side with Spiderman.
It is perfectly reasonable to extend this gnostic atheism to abrahamic faiths.

However, when it comes to pantheism and deism, I admit that there is no convincing argument either way, so I claim to be an agnostic atheist.

 

[methane47]

Look into Bhuddhism
its the non-religion religion

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Ever since i remember, i never really believed in god. I always thought it was an absurd idea. I also thought that i'm among the "smart" ones or at least the lucky ones who are able to see through the bullshit.

But as i grow older i realize that i'm the unlucky one instead. Because i denied myself from a wonderful bed time story where god and his angels will always watch over everyone or something and that there is a deeper meaning to everything and that no matter how cruel something looks, it's always according to god's good plan and that i will live forever in some form so i won't miss anything, etc.

Instead i am now the most pessimistic person, i think there is no reason for anything to exist, yet i don't like the idea of not existing either because nothingness seems even more meaningless if that makes any sense. It doesn't help that my life has been miserable the last 6-7 years or so. So the whole "live your life to the fullest" atheist motto doesn't really work on me.

Sure, religious people have hell to worry about but that's just something to keep things interesting. That's the whole point of religion. It's interesting. It has a meaning. Nothingness has no meaning. I hate the idea of death because of it. And i actually feel very jealous of people who really believe in god without knowingly kidding themselves. I wish i could do too. But my sense and logic always tell me that existence is a stupid mystery that nobody will ever solve and at some point nobody sentient will exist to know about it.

I wonder if others have similar thoughts?

I passed by a similar phase, since i was raised as an atheist and was one all my youth.
God was always perceived as a ridicule concept in my household but i think i always had some doubt.
It's not a good reason to leave atheism, though, we should pursue what is true and not what is useful.

My thought process at the end of my atheist-phase was that if we are here for no objective reason, nothing really matter. It's change nothing if you're a good person or a bad one if yourself and everybody you know finally end in a few years and disappear to the big nothingness. That you can take the most benevolent being on earth and Adolph Hitler and they will end the same, and all theirs actions will disappear as well.

The whole "make you're own sense of life" never worked for me because it's so subjective, it's just seems to me to be a way to fool oneself. Something is true or it's not true, stating something i would like to be like "I will live forever in the mind of people" don't actually exist just because i want it to exist.

Embracing agnosticism was a big relief for me, it was like i was now able to ask questions i wouldn't allow myself to make. Like taking religions, revelations and spirituals experiences seriously, as part of the human experience, and not a kind of backward inventions to control the masses. I think it's one of those rare transformative moments that one experience in his life, when you can really decide what you want to be.

I feel the same about my childhood, i am always a little jealous of those who grew up with God and the Angels, believing in an absolute Good and Benevolent force out there.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

So, I had actually written a good 1.5k words on a reply, then realized it was basically an incoherent rant (well, it's coherent...for me, and that's the problem), so I'm just going to go with the very short version, and that is that you wrongly believe that the universe is altered between being religious and secular.

That's the socialization party trick of how to keep people inside that black hole of bullshit that religion uses, but once you remove god the remains may seem like they're going to a moral void, but the reality is that that universe is the real one, whereas the 'morals are real' version is a fake. Nothing actually changed between going from a fake to a real version of the universe's content. Evolution still exists, despite the inability of the universe to have a predisposition towards either morals or lack thereof. It's dismoral, not amoral. It couldn't possibly care about either result. Which means you have them -or some at least- despite the randomness of existence.
And you actually regain idiosyncratic history, responsibility, and accountability. You get to choose who you want to be, not be told in advance to be this or that like a good slave.

I don't know how to describe my position though, since the above sentence might lead people to believe I subscribe to a Nietzschean view.

I want to say "secular compassionate existentialist", the second term being there for 'pay it forward' purposes. We do good because it feels good (and yes, we also do bad because it feels good, but we do have a self-reflexive ability to deny ourselves this and reframe where we want the emotion to go), and we should seek to spread those emotions, not the "everything is punishment" from Christianity. That attitude is toxic, unproductive, destructive to others, and altogether classless. So obviously it's fucking everywhere and everyone takes it for granted.
I unfortunately see this is practice a lot when looking at parents with small children. Punishment leads to (pathological) liars, whereas trust leads to honesty. Darwin already realized that too.

Or to put it in the shortest form: just be nice. It's not that fucking hard. Kind of why I picked my current avatar too.