Support NeoGAF

[J-Rzez]

Since I just saw this thread, here's from another, sorry.

So I can sum it up:

People are tired of politics and want an exit from it, even for just a little bit. Sports is an outlet for some people. This is why they're upset. It's not causing the desired effect, in which it's symobilism is catered towards a group of people that's probably not in the majority of the sport, and instead it's enraging the opposite group, and also starting to piss off fence sitters.

To be fair, the national anthem is not "just for the military" as some think. It's respecting the country itself that grants people the freedoms and opportunities they have. So it's insulting the thing that gives people these freedoms. Instead, the players should make a mark by speaking out to media post-game and throughout the week who will happily give them a soap box for clicks/views. It also doesn't help that this country is what gives them this opportunity for their career, which they're collecting checks from which is infuriating people. So, another good point would be for MORE of them to give their lions share of their earnings away to groups in need, not buy that new Lambo, boat, house. Not take a picture of themselves standing in front of a closet full of new sneakers never used sitting in their boxes.

So that's the gist of it all.

That's ONE of the views on this. You have to understand this PoV of certain individuals in order to effectively find a way to work. That is all.

 

[theignoramus]

Man. Some of y'all are really out of touch.

Certain people are upset because they lost grandparents, parents, siblings, and children in wars fought under that flag. That's all it is. It has nothing to do with BLM or minorities. Hell, a very large portion of the active military isn't white. They also see it as disrespect.

I'm a veteran and I'm not bothered by it since I see it as a simple expression of free speech, but I also came back from Afghanistan alive and with all my limbs. People who weren't so lucky (or who love/d someone who wasn't so lucky) might have a different perspective.

Then why are they okay with Confederate flags and monuments displayed on public property and on public institutions? That symbol represents a movement that sought to destroy America. That symbol represents TRAITORS to America. That symbol represents people who stood for anti-American ideals of slavery and oppression.

No, the anger towards anthem kneelers has everything to do with Black people needing to stay in their place.

 

[Widdle Puppy]

This is kinda where I net out.

They don't want you to understand nor do they care because to them logic isn't a part of their thought processes.

It's pretty simple to understand though. they'll filter anything through some stupid color blind belief as long as it is threatening white supremacy. doesn't have to make any sense.

 

[paperboywriter]

After an argument with my mom & fiancé, I feel a lot of it is just propaganda reinforcing the idea that not "respect[ing] the flag" is disrespecting veterans, & that disrespecting veterans is one of the most egregious offenses imaginable.

It's an idea that's been reinforced so heavily for them that anyone doing or thinking anything different is unforgivable. It's not necessarily always racism. Sometimes it's just something they're trained to think & feel, but never question.

I can see some sense in that line of thinking. Maybe not in an absolute sense but certainly in the sense of not offending veterans sense.

 

[Hoo-doo]

What do you think national anthems are?

Of course there are patriotic customs unique to the US, but I think you're exaggerating the effect they have in this situation. As people have pointed out in this thread, this isn't ABOUT patriotism. This is about white supremacy. "Patriotism" is the smoke screen...as it always is.

I mean, I grew up saying the pledge to, most adults in this country do. Only seems to be one group that's consistently "brainwashed" by it though.

Do you have any first-hand experience on how other countries treat their anthem and/or flag though? It doesn't seem like it.
It's okay to realize that the indoctrination of children is freaking wrong. People should love their country for what it is, not the magical fantasy realm the flag should represent.

 

[The Kree]

There is a strong culture in this country that associates the flag with sacrifice and honor. I remember when my veteran dad was told by the homeowners association to take the flag down from his garage and I was afraid he would literally kill someone.

Have some empathy. After all, it's only what we're asking from them, too.

Would you mind waiting for empathy until Confederate flags are outlawed and cops start being held accountable for abhorrent behavior? Asking for a friend.

 

[theignoramus]

Remember this- while their parents, and grandparents, fought and died defeating Nazis, my fucking grandfather couldn't walk into a restaurant and sit down at the counter and eat his fucking lunch in Arkansas where he lived. We're pretending like the American flag is some pure symbol of goodness? Fuck that. It doesn't cut it for me. It's about racism. It's about wanting black Americans to know their place, to sit down and shut up and accept that society grinds their boot in our face.

They let NAZI PRISONERS OF WAR eat at segregated restaurants while they banned Black American soldiers.
There can be no forgiveness of it. And we can never forget it.

 

[molnizzle]

Then why are they okay with Confederate flags and monuments displayed on public property and on public institutions? That symbol represents a movement that sought to destroy America. That symbol represents TRAITORS to America. That symbol represents people who stood for anti-American ideals of slavery and oppression.

No, the anger towards anthem kneelers has everything to do with Black people needing to stay in their place.

They're not? You're lumping two distinct groups of people together there. Obviously there's overlap among the alt-right types, but those aren't really who I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the normal people who are bothered by others "disrespecting" the flag.

 

[Frozenprince]

They're not? You're lumping two distinct groups of people together there. Obviously there's overlap among the alt-right types, but those aren't really who I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the normal people who are bothered by others "disrespecting" the flag.

Do any of those people stand with their hands iver their hearts when the anthem is on TV?

 

[bengraven]

1. The flag
2. God
3. The troops
4. Football/hunting/other sport
5. Dad
6. Your male children/Mom
7. Cops, Firefighters, EMTs, etc
8. Your other children
9. Fucking/drinking/gambling
10. Your wife
599. Other ethnicities
2673. Kim Jung Un
2674. Liberals
2675. Satan
2676. Left wing or neutral media

 

[royalan]

Do you have any first-hand experience on how other countries treat their anthem and/or flag though? It doesn't seem like it.
It's okay to realize that the indoctrination of children is freaking wrong. People should love their country for what it is, not the magical fantasy realm the flag should represent.

This is a huge tangent. I don't give a shit about the pledge, nor do I approve of it. I also think it's wrong to indoctrinate children, and never said otherwise. So please stop putting words into my mouth.

The pledge has shit to do with this controversy. This is white supremacy we're dealing with. Not hurt feelings over the damn pledge.

 

[molnizzle]

Do any of those people stand with their hands iver their hearts when the anthem is on TV?

Wait... is that a thing?

 

[Frozenprince]

The whole damn point is that the other side lacks the empathy to look at WHY his is happening.

If they did that then we can maybe meet at a middle ground.

 

[Turbo Killer]

Like the guy in my office said “it’s about the military or something”, no fucking clue lol.

Also, get the usual “if these guys were living in another country they would be dead.” Bullshit.

 

[Frozenprince]

Wait... is that a thing?

I mean, then how are they not hypocritical and worth dismissing? How is the fact that you're watching it through a screen different than being there? If it's just supposed to be about what it represents, shouldn't they do the same they ask of these players?

 

[More_Badass]

After an argument with my mom & fiancé, I feel a lot of it is just propaganda reinforcing the idea that not "respect[ing] the flag" is disrespecting veterans, & that disrespecting veterans is one of the most egregious offenses imaginable.

It's an idea that's been reinforced so heavily for them that anyone doing or thinking anything different is unforgivable. It's not necessarily always racism. Sometimes it's just something they're trained to think & feel, but never question.

This was me for a long time. It’s not something you really think about, it just is. It’s engrained by school, in how the founding fathers and the country are represented and how you say the pledge in the morning. By parents and family, by tv and movies, by news.

It wasn’t till three, four years ago that I started becoming more cynical and questioning these things, “America” and how it is presented and taught versus reality.

 

[DominoKid]

racism and an inability to think independently

 

[molnizzle]

I mean, then how are they not hypocritical and worth dismissing? How is the fact that you're watching it through a screen different than being there? If it's just supposed to be about what it represents, shouldn't they do the same they ask of these players?

I absolutely think they're hypocritical and worth dismissing. My initial post was just pointing out that most of them aren't motivated by racism, as many posters in this thread seem to think. They'd be just as pissed at white people kneeling for the anthem, hypocritical as that might be.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

After an argument with my mom & fiancé, I feel a lot of it is just propaganda reinforcing the idea that not "respect[ing] the flag" is disrespecting veterans, & that disrespecting veterans is one of the most egregious offenses imaginable.

If they actually felt that way, they wouldn't have elected Donald Trump as President. You know, the guy on record openly verbally attacking veterans and POWs.

If it's only "egregious" when the moment suits them, it's not really egregious at all.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

If this is about respecting veterans, what about what Trump's said about the Khan family and John McCain?

At what point does all the brainwashed circular logic start to reveal its contradictions to those who don't know history enough to understand protest?

 

[royalan]

I absolutely think they're hypocritical and worth dismissing. My initial post was just pointing out that most of them aren't motivated by racism, as many posters in this thread seem to think. They'd be just as pissed at white people kneeling for the anthem, hypocritical as that might be.

So then why did they vote for a man who, on multiple occasions last year, insulted army veterans?

 

[More_Badass]

If this is about respecting veterans, what about what Trump's said about the Khan family and John McCain?

Those people did liberal things like criticize Trump so it’s okay, that makes them the enemy

 

[molnizzle]

So then why did they vote for a man who, on multiple occasions last year, insulted army veterans?

For a multitude of reasons, and I imagine each one of them would have a different one.

As far as people I know personally, those specific statements are what drove many of my Army buddies to vote third party.

 

[theignoramus]

They're not? You're lumping two distinct groups of people together there. Obviously there's overlap among the alt-right types, but those aren't really who I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the normal people who are bothered by others "disrespecting" the flag.

Something like over 65% of White Americans polled believe Confederate monuments are a valuable piece of history and reflect "southern pride"
Lets not even play that game of "only the alt right" supports Confederate symbols being displayed in places of prominence. There are more Confederate statues than statues of Black Americans in the US Capitol. That dont got shit to do with the "alt-right".

 

[Ovid]

If this is about respecting veterans, what about what Trump's said about the Khan family and John McCain?

At what point does all the brainwashed circular logic start to reveal its contradictions to those who don't know history enough to understand protest?

Haha, thats why the opposition responses from Trump supporters hold no weight.

1. The flag
2. God
3. The troops

Should be:
1. God
2. Guns
3. Flag

 

[Angelus Errare]

Something like over 65% of White Americans polled believe Confederate monuments are a valuable piece of history and reflect "southern pride"
Lets not even play that game of "only the alt right" supports Confederate symbols being displayed in places of prominence. There are more Confederate statues than statues of Black Americans in the US Capitol. That dont got shit to do with the "alt-right".

Add in there are confederate statues in states that weren't even part of the damn Civil War...many of them weren't even states!

 

[theignoramus]

I absolutely think they're hypocritical and worth dismissing. My initial post was just pointing out that most of them aren't motivated by racism, as many posters in this thread seem to think. They'd be just as pissed at white people kneeling for the anthem, hypocritical as that might be.

I dont believe that at all. If some White athletes knelt in protest of some conservative hot button issue, they would find a way to support it.
They supported the Bundy boys mounting an armed insurrection, they will support any cause that aligns with their grievances.

 

[Shamrock7r]

If this is about respecting veterans, what about what Trump's said about the Khan family and John McCain?

At what point does all the brainwashed circular logic start to reveal its contradictions to those who don't know history enough to understand protest?

I have spoken to some of my left leaning friends about the subject, and a few of them, who are absolutely opposed to Trump, still aren't comfortable with the form of protest. It's tough I guess because the anthem and the flag is aspirational, and seen as away of acknowledging sacrifice, despite the country's flaws. I can understand it being hard for them to rationalize the protest from that viewpoint. I just try to remind them, that if anything, you can be against the presentation, just don't use that as an excuse to ignore the purpose.

 

[Ovid]

Screenshotted version so you don't have to click anything:

Nice.

 

[Vicetrailia]

The result is upholding white supremacy consciously or not. It's like a reflex when minorities assert themselves

 

[Mario]

“Don’t draw attention to issues I am trying to generally ignore during my escapist entertainment”

 

[Frozenprince]

A history if the US flag code
Thanks
https://mobile.twitter.com/koopa_kinte/status/911715150507454464

Ah already posted my B

 

[Angelus Errare]

Joe Walsh sums up what it's really about.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Joe Walsh sums up what it's really about.

 

[royalan]

Joe Walsh sums up what it's really about.

Welp

 

[davepoobond]

Surface level patriotism with no understanding of what patriotism should represent

 

[Derwind]

Its like the end-game for all these flag loving patriots is to enact anti-blasphemy laws around the flag...

Respect the flag or else.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Joe Walsh sums up what it's really about.

All those instagram photos and Lambos pissin Joe off

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Joe Walsh sums up what it's really about.

Yep.

 

[Ovid]

Two good articles about Kaepernick kneeling:

Colin Kaepernick and the powerful, religious act of kneeling
washingtonpost.com

Colin Kaepernick vs. Tim Tebow: A tale of two Christians on their knees
washingtonpost.com

Both articles published today.

Joe Walsh sums up what it's really about.

I don't care what anybody says, it's clearly about race.

 

[loaf of bread]

Man. Some of y'all are really out of touch.

Certain people are upset because they lost grandparents, parents, siblings, and children in wars fought under that flag. That's all it is. It has nothing to do with BLM or minorities. Hell, a very large portion of the active military isn't white. They also see it as disrespect.

I'm a veteran and I'm not bothered by it since I see it as a simple expression of free speech, but I also came back from Afghanistan alive and with all my limbs. People who weren't so lucky (or who love/d someone who wasn't so lucky) might have a different perspective.

Every other country has veterans and people who lost family members in wars, etc, in many cases on a much greater scale than the US. And yet they never have a problem with stuff like this.

 

[StrategyFan]

most people aren't disrespecting the army of the american revolution

there are other things in the anthem

 

[MIMIC]

I'd just retort "I'll stop disrespecting the flag/NA when the country stops disrespecting minorities. Deal?"

 

[Ogodei]

There's a general liberal-conservative gap there. Things like flag-burning have no racial connotation and still draw the same ire from the right wing, because there's more value for symbolism on the right, symbols and institutions are things that are meant to be respected because they have inherent value. The left takes a dimmer view of that, at the end of the day objects are just objects, anthems are just anthems.

But a lot of the right wing is divided into two groups: the ingenues who believe the cover story, and the blackhearts who spin the cover story to try to look good. Racists come up with the "respect the flag!" line to justify their racism, and people who don't know better run with that genuinely.

Of course, it's not a dichotomy between con-man and mark. A lot of right wingers are both in different situations.

 

[The Kree]

Joe Walsh sums up what it's really about.

'Ungrateful' and 'black' are the keywords here, for any remedials who still don't get it.

 

[darscot]

How the fuck do you call a man like Stevie Wonder ungrateful?! Do people think the US just handed a blind black man millions he didn't deserve? Can you imagine the work and talent it takes for a blind black man to find success in America. Give the man some credit for what he did for himself. America should be grateful to Stevie for what he does for them, not the other way around. I am sure America did nothing but make life harder for him.

 

[theignoramus]

Rockpile Report‏
@RockpileReport
Follow
More
Boo birds as half the Broncos take a knee. #denvsbuf

They booed during the anthem while the players silently took a knee. Are we clear yet on what motivates these people?
https://twitter.com/RockpileReport/status/911998726599737344

 

[eyeball_kid]

I guess I have mixed feelings about the flag issue. I certainly don't have a problem with anyone who is taking the knee. But I've seen a sort of consistent viewpoint about the flag from BLM folks that it represents our racist, problematic America. To me the flag represents the things we hold as American ideals, of equality and justice for everyone, that more "perfect union" that we're trying to achieve. Not the reality, but the hope, and the onward march towards a better America. So I don't want Trump and the white supremacists to take any ownership of it, they disgrace it.

But I guess that's part of the problem, that the flag represents different things to different people.

 

[Shig]

Blind devotion to indoctrinated beliefs is a hell of a drug. My dad hates Trump and recognizes that his rhetoric on the issue was destructive, but he just can't get past the "the flag is sacred YOU'RE SPITTING ON VETERANS' SACRIFICES" talking point.

Which might be okay and inspire a bit of understanding if he and others like him expressed that sentiment evenly. Unfortunately, equivalently fiery rant sessions about how disrespectful an ACTUAL NAZI PARADE was to veterans tend to come up as -footage not found- with these folks. Sigh.

I don't think it's necessarily that they condone the Nazi bullshit, if asked point blank my dad will absolutely disavow them, more that they're just selectively blind to how the right-wing media is pulling their strings on whatever outrage-of-the-hour they want to get people to foist upon liberals.

 

[The Kree]

How the fuck do you call a man like Stevie Wonder ungrateful?! Do people think the US just handed a blind black man millions he didn't deserve? Can you imagine the work and talent it takes for a blind black man to find success in America. Give the man some credit for what he did for himself. America should be grateful to Stevie for what he does for them, not the other way around.

Yes, that's exactly what they think.