Fighting in general sure, but specificly to versus games it just doesn't seem to work. Though admittedly, it hasn't really been tried by talented designers. Fighting Vipers had a form of injury with armor breaks, Tao Feng did it with damaged limbs, but both made the game feel more restrictive than fun. Fatigue would lead to more turtling, which is like the unholy enemy of fighting games. Maybe they could be done right, but I can't see it.xabre said:
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Improve a genre - Fighting games
- Thread starter xabre
- Start date
The Faceless Master
Member
injury and fatigue have shit to do with being a good competetive game, unless it's UFC/Boxing/Etcxabre said:
two people start out, one person gets hit and injured... now they're behind on points or energy or whatever, and also at a disadvantage in movement, moveset, etc it just steamrolls from there in the 'first hit wins' aka 'win button' style of gameplay.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Hell yeah. Change is terrible. Let's play slightly revised versions of the same series for the rest of our lives. Let's bring back the glory days of the arcade era by trying to relive them with constant rehashes and tired sequels. Publishers should just ignore the declining sales of their fighting franchises and keep giving people what they clearly don't want.Aaron said:
xabre said:
xabre, you might be interested in Toribash. And I can almost guarantee that we'll see a Euphoria based fighter in a few years.
akachan ningen
Member
Zoramon089 said:
:lol "attempted" is right on the money.
Modern fighting games like Tekken 5, VF4 evo, 3rd Strike, CVS2, GGXX, and MVC2 need no improvement. They're already endlessly replayable masterpieces.
Zoramon089
Banned
Plaid Socks said:Today: Ditch the pseudorealism. Have characters beyond the scope of national stereotypes. Be able to abandon any form of traditional martial arts. Ditch "sequel"/upgrade mentality. Perhaps fighters can learn from adventure and platform games that have evolved and tried new things?
As far as gameplay goes, the number one thing that needs to continue to be improved is defense/blocking/counter. More thought and more varying animation should be put into this. This would be easier to do though if they got rid of the life bar or at least make it an option out of other choices (like selecting a special art in sf3).
Environment interaction is a good direction.
Pubs and Devs need to go balls out and start making online play and there communities as strong as possible.
Most important, we need fighting mods for this gen. Why do we have to use fps based engines? Can't Capcom, Namco, Tecmo, hell Midway package a competent editor for artists, coders, and designers to play around with? Look what it did for the fps genre
Seriously, have you heard of the Smash Bros series because it incorporates the majority of the suggestions you've mentioned
Except if you look beyond the mainstream titles, you find plenty of change. Even then, King of Fighters XI was different from anything SNK had done at that point, same with Max Impact. Arcana Heart plays almost nothing like other 2D games, SF4 is shaping up to be distinct from its own series, etc.SapientWolf said:
3D fighters do tend to toe the line, sadly, but 2D nothing stays too static for long. Even Arc Systems changed things up with their Basara game, though Blaz Blue looks to return back to the GG formula. If you want something very different in 3D, you can try Kengo 3. Pity the 360 Kengo was such shit.
The Faceless Master
Member
well, that's because the problem isn't the fighting games.Skilletor said:
The Faceless Master
Member
don't forget Skilletor!Reno said:jeez, Markman and faceless beat me to the punch.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I've been thinking the same general idea in my head. Most fighters were designed around an arcade scheme, so the newer fighters should be based on modern controllers.KevinCow said:
I'd even go so far as to abandon the face buttons completely and use the sticks for movement and the shoulders for attacks, blocking, counters and throws. One nice thing about the triggers is that the're more easily used in combination than the face buttons.
Left Stick/D-pad is 2D XY movement ala Street Fighter, but with the right stick as XZ-axis dodging and dashes. This allows for more complicated directional inputs than most 3d fighters.
Also, bring back uneven terrain. I'd prefer an organic stamina system over health bars, and yes, procedural animation to add slight variations on the movesets(are adding tolerances to keyframed animation possible?).
Make blocking fun! Jesus.
flintstryker
Banned
akachan ningen said:
don't forget fucking boring.
SapientWolf said:
Yes that looks interesting.
akachan ningen said:
These games are a type of fighter, they're arcade fighters that are fun and enjoyable. Some are quite deep and strategic. I want a sim, like racing games are split into sub-genres of racing so fighting games should be similarly split.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Zoramon089 said:
Yes, but in this thread we're talking about fighting games.
akachan ningen
Member
xabre said:
Have you tried the UFC games or Fight Night? Those are a little more sim-like. Personally, I think they suck but they might have what you're looking for.
God's Beard said:
Yea I've been thinking of a dual-analog fighter too. Where one stick and the triggers/shoulders control the direction of the arms/legs etc for blocking/attacking and the other stick controls movement incl dodging/evading. Procedural animation, good physics and hit detection would be key and the camera would be best situated over the shoulder (not side on) so you can clearly see different opponent attacks (direction, angle etc) and properly react.
akachan ningen said:
QFT
People who look briefly at these titles don't realize how deep and intricate they are. "How do I do special moves?" is basically just asking for the location of the tip of a random iceberg in the middle of the Atlantic. While the first timers are looking at D,F+Slash they won't even start to try to understand the uses and importance of a perfectly timed False Roman Cancel.
I think fighting games are fine. Gamers themselves are just out of touch with what a true fighting game is. Soul Calibur in many ways lowered the bar IMO. Its fun, but technically it has a lot of issues. It should be a lot better than it is... And Smash Bros? Its not a fighting game. Its a fun game where the characters fight each other. What many "fighting" games are now are hybrids between true fighting games and whatever is thought to be the most appealing at the time.
GauntletFan
Banned
Take The Warriors and throw it onto Next Gen systems with enhanced graphics. Done.
I wouldn't mind a semi-realistic fighter that was more or less based upon karate competitions instead of all the craziness of most fighters. not that I hate the craziness of most fighters, but it would be interesting to see someone attempt to make a realistic fighter that isn't based upon combos. I'm sure it wouldn't be very flashy, though. As far as how it could play, I would say possibly dual analog where the left stick controls movement, the shoulders are for punch and kick (hold both to guard), and the right stick allows you to direct/spin your attacks and adjust your guarding. I guess almost like how skate. works for the tricks, by making them about analog movements instead of button combos. I guess technically you could still kind of do combo attacks, since as an example, you would hold the kick shoulder down and flip the right stick up for a high kick, and then if you move the stick after that (and don't get hit while you are attacking) you would then do another kick in the direction you moved using the momentum from your initial kick. It just wouldn't be designed around the long dial-a-combo system of most 3d fighters.
I'm sure this idea would both be hard to implement well and also would only sell like, 10 copies at most, since it's hard to put into words how the controls would work and not make them sound bad. But with some proper mapping of attacks to the right stick, you could have what would feel more fluid (imo) than button presses even if it wouldn't have the same speed.
I'm sure this idea would both be hard to implement well and also would only sell like, 10 copies at most, since it's hard to put into words how the controls would work and not make them sound bad. But with some proper mapping of attacks to the right stick, you could have what would feel more fluid (imo) than button presses even if it wouldn't have the same speed.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I don't know about over the shoulder unless it's an online or single player only game. Besides, range is far more important than the side your oponent's attacks are coming from, and if the players are situated in a line to begin with, then the advantage is irrelevant. It would only help if the game had gears of war-style free movement, and that would be too frustrating for a fighting game.xabre said:
abstract alien
Member
yes, it is. You dont have to follow the old sf/vf mold to be a fighter. Although i agree that the games like sf3, tekken, gg, etc are definitely classics, there needs to be more games like smash bros that break out of the same old mold and go towards new ground.DY_nasty said:
Plaid Socks
Member
Zoramon089 said:
I don't know of a Nintendo series I hate, except for Smash. I'm strictly speaking about the traditional fighting genre. Stuff like Power Stone and Ehrgeiz that have multiple platforms (for me at least) would be considered nontraditional. MvC followings some of the points too, but that's traditional. Wrestling games have deviated from lifebars also, but there not traditional fighters.
When I think of environment based interaction in the future of fighters, I think of it being more aesthetic to start out, something that can complement the aesthetics of the characters and the fighting, not so much JUST having stuff break or have traps scattered about.
Teknopathetic
Member
"They need to invest in dedicated server and improve netcode so timing of online and offline gameplay is not so off.
Peer to Peer will kill this genre regardless of how fast the internet becomes because just when you're kicking little billy's ass from across the globe, his big brother decides to hit "Download Now" and there goes the combo!"
This is wrong. They need to improve the netcode/client prediction and whatnot, that is true. They don't need to use dedicated servers. When playing something online that only has just 2 players, peer to peer is the more efficient solution. A dedicated server is unnecessary.
Peer to Peer will kill this genre regardless of how fast the internet becomes because just when you're kicking little billy's ass from across the globe, his big brother decides to hit "Download Now" and there goes the combo!"
This is wrong. They need to improve the netcode/client prediction and whatnot, that is true. They don't need to use dedicated servers. When playing something online that only has just 2 players, peer to peer is the more efficient solution. A dedicated server is unnecessary.
Zoramon089
Banned
Plaid Socks said:
What would be the point of having environment based interactions purely for aesthetics? I mean, it would be a waste of time incorporating something that won't affect the fights in any way?
akachan ningen
Member
This is kind of off-topic but why can't America make a decent fighter? The only ones that gained any kind of popularity were MK, for the gore, and KI, for the graphics. They both sucked. And then there were endless MK and SF clones back when they were big.
American game devs are having a sort of renaissance in the last several years, so why don't they give fighters a shot again?
American game devs are having a sort of renaissance in the last several years, so why don't they give fighters a shot again?
NameGenerated
Who paid you to grab Dr. Pavel?
POWER STONE 3
flintstryker
Banned
fuck you.akachan ningen said:
anyway while use to like fighter i believe the genre is pretty much filled with boring shit now it needs to break away from the traditional setup.
akachan ningen
Member
flintstryker said:
Are you from the South? That's basically the only place that still like MK. Just curious, do also like that professional "wrestling" stuff?
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I liked KI, thank you very much.akachan ningen said:
Fight Night 3 was pretty great but I don't think it counts as a fighter.
The Faceless Master
Member
oh no you didn't!!!akachan ningen said:
unless you mean southern california...
Better training modes.
The only reason this topic ever comes up is because too many people don't have a clue what they're doing. A lot of the training modes are excellent, showing frame data (such as in VF5) and training you in many different moves and situations (like SC3), but they need to go a step further.
Most gamers don't have a clue about hit and stun properties and including frame data only scares them even more. They don't look as VF5 as accessible, they think that all this extra knowledge is a bad thing.
What we need is more of this => http://www.sonichurricane.com/articles.html
But put into video form so that people can understand it, and be entertained by it, like this and this (though Sirlin's is a little dry). :lol
Also it seems like Japan has a lot more access to training DVDs with BNB moves and more strategy guides that basically need to be translated into English.
Once you know how to play one decent fighting game and have enough background knowledge to apply to others, I don't see how you could possibly view the genre as stale. Every other genre where things hit each other is stale compared to a decent fighter.
The only reason this topic ever comes up is because too many people don't have a clue what they're doing. A lot of the training modes are excellent, showing frame data (such as in VF5) and training you in many different moves and situations (like SC3), but they need to go a step further.
Most gamers don't have a clue about hit and stun properties and including frame data only scares them even more. They don't look as VF5 as accessible, they think that all this extra knowledge is a bad thing.
What we need is more of this => http://www.sonichurricane.com/articles.html
But put into video form so that people can understand it, and be entertained by it, like this and this (though Sirlin's is a little dry). :lol
Also it seems like Japan has a lot more access to training DVDs with BNB moves and more strategy guides that basically need to be translated into English.
Once you know how to play one decent fighting game and have enough background knowledge to apply to others, I don't see how you could possibly view the genre as stale. Every other genre where things hit each other is stale compared to a decent fighter.
flintstryker
Banned
where did i say i still like MK? and fuck no i don't like wrestling.akachan ningen said:
i loved the 2d mks no matter what any one want to say those absolutely does not suck i don't really give a damn about the 3d ones though.
TheHeretic
Banned
Outside of Simulations, Fighting games are probably the most hardcore genre ever concieved. I think someone should come up with a fighting game that doesn't take months of training to become mediocre at (outside of Smash Brothers, which is too simplified in my opinion).
akachan ningen said:
I think westerners can make a decent fighter right now.. the generation of gamers that really grew up with SF in the arcades are now old enough to be really influencing the genre but I guess they work on other genres that they "get" more. I've known quite a lot of people who were competitive SF/SC/etc players that have gone into game dev but they are working on other games because they understand it better, although I'm sure they'd all love to make a fighting game.
Also... this is also a big generalization, but I think Japanese developers are more in tune with close quarter combat because of their upbringing when they were kids (kendo, judo, karate, etc.) and Westerners grew up with well, guns.:lol
Plaid Socks
Member
Zoramon089 said:
If you watch animation you'll know all the added movements and subtleties make a difference, so depending and how you incorporated it, it might just be a distraction or completely irrelevant to the players experience if you made it all background. The stuff that I'm thinking of is basically a player executing another move but instead of you basic projectile, flying across the screen with special effects, or a kung fu move, the stage your in comes into affect. The ground can swallow you up and spit you out. Guilty Gear or some Mvc can look like this, but the idea would be to balance it between being a neutral environment to one being summoned by the character. This is all alot of fantasy stuff that probably wont be touched for a long time. Or having a sense of home field advantage. I think fighting games are the most visually interesting games you can play, and I think you could add more visual dynamics and appeal by focusing on something thats overlooked.
Okay, I'll take the most pessimistic approach: The genre is stale, the big series are only ever adding minor features that make a big difference to genre experts, but to no one else.
Lots of experiments were made, but nothing really worked well. Smash Brothers is a commercial success, but it is one of a kind, copying the mechanics will only make you look bad in comparision.
The genre has slowly developed into a niche and will continue along that road. Fighters are now as shumps were not long ago.
Lots of experiments were made, but nothing really worked well. Smash Brothers is a commercial success, but it is one of a kind, copying the mechanics will only make you look bad in comparision.
The genre has slowly developed into a niche and will continue along that road. Fighters are now as shumps were not long ago.
DY_nasty said:
The problem is not that the player does not appreciate a Roman Cancel, the problem is most players don't even know what it is. The Fighting Game genre seems to be the only genre where it is seemingly ok to leave out critical game information from manuals and tutorial. Shit, most don't even have a tutorial. "Practice" modes should just be called "Combo practice for advanced players" from now on.
In Japan this is just a way to milk money with guide books, its just that the good ones are usually never localized to western markets. Usually they even cut out stuff from the game manual to make it shorter (Especially true in europe). GG is an excellent example of a game where you have to start by searching forums on how the game actually works.
Fighting games should be HC because they are deep, not because the knowledge how to play is hidden deep in some community-site behind scary acronyms.
akachan ningen
Member
Anth said:
Jump Ultimate Stars copied the mechanics and was a better game IMO. It had a regular life bar in addition to being able to ring out and it limited the strongest attacks with a super meter. And it had a shitload of customizability.
Gamefaqs. It's free and easy.
You don't need to know what a Roman Cancel is to enjoy Guilty Gear series, just like you don't need to have all the frame counts memorized to enjoy VF. Depth comes in a matter of degrees. There's very few fighting games than can't be played and enjoyed at a shallow level, but if you want to dig deeper and get into those nuances, it's there waiting for you to understand and experiment. Most of the guides you mention are from regular people dicking around with the game to see what beats what, and how they can string together moves. All the important stuff is spelled out clearly in the manual, but you don't need to read it. Just keep the difficulty low and have fun.west said:
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Hmmm.
My ideas;
- Allow any move to cancel into any other move, so you can fake out with a high punch that changes to a sweep kick (or whatever) before connecting
- parry / reverse / counters for everything, with the input to do so based on the complexity of the 'incoming' move not just on timing, and the counters / reversals themselves also being parryable an infinite number of times, but the window to enter the command decreasing after each successful reverse
- Offer something more rewarding than building a special bar or whatever for aggressive gameplay to counter turtling - so if you add 'fatigue' or whatever, fatigue decreases while on the offensive. Conversely, make whiffed attacks or specials increase that fatigue, so you are rewarded for aggressive but accurate play, and punished for turtling or 'same move' spam (which I guess affects mindgames, but meh)
- make movesets more time and distance based than 'learning the moves' based, make combos more based on reading and countering the opponent and what theyre currently doing than dial a move and juggling presets
Eh, I dunno. Fighters are a niche, but a very well established one. I'm not sure how much chaning up you can do before they're not actually fighters any more.
My ideas;
- Allow any move to cancel into any other move, so you can fake out with a high punch that changes to a sweep kick (or whatever) before connecting
- parry / reverse / counters for everything, with the input to do so based on the complexity of the 'incoming' move not just on timing, and the counters / reversals themselves also being parryable an infinite number of times, but the window to enter the command decreasing after each successful reverse
- Offer something more rewarding than building a special bar or whatever for aggressive gameplay to counter turtling - so if you add 'fatigue' or whatever, fatigue decreases while on the offensive. Conversely, make whiffed attacks or specials increase that fatigue, so you are rewarded for aggressive but accurate play, and punished for turtling or 'same move' spam (which I guess affects mindgames, but meh)
- make movesets more time and distance based than 'learning the moves' based, make combos more based on reading and countering the opponent and what theyre currently doing than dial a move and juggling presets
Eh, I dunno. Fighters are a niche, but a very well established one. I'm not sure how much chaning up you can do before they're not actually fighters any more.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I don't think it's too simple. It just puts more of the complexity in the movement than the movesets. I don't think a beginner could button mash their way through a Smash Bros tournament.TheHeretic said:
I think a context based fighting system could help keep the learning curve low without dumbing the game down too much. You see this kind of thing in a lot of wrestling games.