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Improve a genre - Fighting games
- Thread starter xabre
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The Blue Jihad
Member
Reno said:
But what about the times when your opponent is still at relatively full health? Would you use a longer combination then, or is it still impractical? The longer your retaliation, the more of an opportunity your opponent has to counter, himself, after all (barring the inescapable combo bullshit). Certainly, there's a greater reward for the greater risk, but on average, what's the length of most combinations in your fights?
riskVSreward
Member
xabre said:
Go buy Tao Feng, your dream fighter, and call it a night. I'm sure you know enough "people like you" who would love to play it with you.
The Blue Jihad said:
Combos by definition are inescapable if you can pull them off flawlessly 100% of the time. Only times they're escapable is if the system has a combo breaking mechanism (Burst in GG), or you just fuck up. Usually the longer the combo, the more complex and more of a chance you'll mess up. That's really the only reason to keep them short. My choice of combos usually come from a list of ones know I can do 100% of the time, even if a better one exists that I can do 90% of the time.
Also what the combo starts with is a big factor. You might have a nice combo that you can do 100% of the time, but has a very risky starter that should only be used opportunistically. So if you go around trying to land that first hit constantly, you'll just get punished.
Shinz Kicker
Banned
the most satisfying 1-1 fighting esque game was multiplayer on onescreen on ZOE. if they could make zoe more robust, complicated isnt the right word, it would make a great fighting genre/game. if all the robots were balanced rather than having 1-2 mechs that were god like. the speed and controls are too perfect to not build on this. with online multiplayer both players could have their own full screen now as well.
Attack You
Member
Shinz Kicker said:
I must be the only person in the U.S. that likes this game.
Not a perfect match with Zone of the Enders, but still worth a look if you enjoyed ZOE's Vs. mode. Has that same style of ranged vs. close quarters combat ZOE employs, mixed in with bullet curtains and boss attacks.
Prime crotch
Banned
Turtling was "illegal" when me and my cousins played SFII on the Mega Drive, good times.kurahadol said:
The Faceless Master
Member
step 1) figure out which moves have the highest chance to cause injuryxabre said:
step 2) out of the step 1 moves, figure out which have the best chance fo landing due to range and/or speed
step 3) out of the step 1 moves, figure out which moves are the hardest to retaliate against, due to range, speed or speedy recovery
step 4) cross reference the lists in step 2 and step 3
step 5) win
of course, it's not that simple, but this is the type of mentality that a winner has, while someone just fucking around won't be thinking about things like this.
wow, that sailed COMPLETELY over your head. it's not that he wouldn't be able to charge, it's that he wouldn't have to. potential for abuse? yeah.Zoramon089 said:
bumpkin
Member
I agree with those who have mentioned getting rid of the lifebar paradigm. Basically saying that a knockout could come about courtesy of some well-placed powerful hits. I think that more accurate environmental reactions would be nice, and that juggles need to go. Most fighting game characters and environments are rooted somewhat in reality -- not all I know -- and I don't care how strong they are. Kicking someone in the shin isn't going to launch them upward where a punch will flop them like a beach ball.
I'd also like to see defensive animations that are true to the martial art the character uses. This whole holding arms up in front of their chest as a punch hits anywhere above the waist just seems silly. The next-gen consoles have amazing power and propensity for physics and animations; use it.
I'd also like to see defensive animations that are true to the martial art the character uses. This whole holding arms up in front of their chest as a punch hits anywhere above the waist just seems silly. The next-gen consoles have amazing power and propensity for physics and animations; use it.
If I can still pick most any popular anime and there isn't a game out there that comes anywhere close to the actually fighting mechanics and flow represented in that show, then there is still plenty of avenues to explore.
Where's my Naruto game that doesn't play like a Naruto themed version of the standard 3d template? I want to mold my chakra to walk on trees and water. I want to I want to form some seals. I want the new Pokemon lightening beats earth beat water beats fire beat beats wind to be strongly adhered to. I want to hide, I want to kawarimi to be an actual mechanic and not Naruto themed flavor of counters.
To have a fighter in which Shkimaru can do the things he does in the manga/anime in game, you would have to drastically change up things. (The Shika that appears in the game now is a fairly unfaithful interpretation of the character. With strategy and thinking 200 moves ahead being replaced by teleporting and stringed combos.) Its not about the classic fighting standard being bad, its about current fighting standard not being able to cover every facet of what fighting games can be. Its not good or bad, its just what it is.
Where's my Naruto game that doesn't play like a Naruto themed version of the standard 3d template? I want to mold my chakra to walk on trees and water. I want to I want to form some seals. I want the new Pokemon lightening beats earth beat water beats fire beat beats wind to be strongly adhered to. I want to hide, I want to kawarimi to be an actual mechanic and not Naruto themed flavor of counters.
To have a fighter in which Shkimaru can do the things he does in the manga/anime in game, you would have to drastically change up things. (The Shika that appears in the game now is a fairly unfaithful interpretation of the character. With strategy and thinking 200 moves ahead being replaced by teleporting and stringed combos.) Its not about the classic fighting standard being bad, its about current fighting standard not being able to cover every facet of what fighting games can be. Its not good or bad, its just what it is.
Plaid Socks
Member
The Faceless Master said:
Why are you guys using "game" and "genre" interchangeably?
Anything and everything takes time and effort to excel, so what does this have to do with anything? When Guilty Gear came out, did this not improve the genre? When XSF or TTT came out, didn't these games improve the genre? Reading some of yours and Markman's posts would have had me thinking that there is a homogenized fighting game community, which there isn't. Each game has there own, really small community. These posts read like bitching about not have enough comp that invests the type of time some of you do. Scrub complaints will be scrub complaints, but genre totally isn't TEKKEN 7 PLZ or VIRTUA FIGHTER 6
riskVSreward said:
Before Burnout (3) came along, some of us played Rush and called it a night. Okay maybe not Rush, Carmageddon. Go check out Midway's library to see good ideas executed in shit form.
1Xtreme,Tony Hawk and Skate. Here we see a niche genre improving. If game dev continue to listen to stubborn gamers, we might be playing 2Xtremes in the fighting genre for years.
The Blue Jihad said:
At high level play, ending the combo in situation that leads to new mixups/pressure is more important than damage. In GG for example it is usually better to do a lower damage combo that ends in knockdown than a more damaging one ends in a recovery/neutral position.
In tournaments I usually go for combos I know I can do 100%. Keep the flashy stuff for casuals.
riskVSreward
Member
Improvements are great, its just that many of these criticisms come from people who dont get the genre and therefore arent improvements at all.
The Faceless Master
Member
i .. uh .. wait .. what are you saying exactly, and why did you quote me of all people?Plaid Socks said:
Plaid Socks
Member
The Faceless Master said:
It was a toss up between you and Markman. Stop complaining about scrubs in this thread.
The topic is about the genre, hence my first comment.The Faceless Master said:
You, Markman and a handful of others keep quoting each other, talking about how the problem is the gamers. People don't decide to put time and effort into something on a whim.
Something needs to change before the people change, even if its marketing the community, culture, or online. So stop talking about people, and talk about marketing, community, etc.. if thats what discussion is going to boil down to. This is turning into a scrubs redux thread. Go link to one of the dozens of srk or tz threads on it.
Every criticism of players, that didn't directly relate to scrubs, is true for all other games indoors and outdoors. So repeating this irrelevant.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
We need a new fighting game series that's not afraid to break with current paradigms. True 3d hit detection like Street Fighter 4 attempted and then disappointingly backpedalled on needs to be tried out by somebody. Granted a 2d fighter probably isn't the best forum to broach the idea, given the lack of visibility with small characters, large stages, and side on views in SF-like games.
While the current "chess game" style of fixed frames, guaranteed hits, et. al. works, it's also limiting and ultimately not much like real fighting. There's little room for improvisation because the relationships aren't dynamic enough. No real physics, still hit box based. With current-gen tech some innovative designers could do some really out of the box stuff in this genre. It would likely be clunky and not as good as conventional fighters in its first release so it would need some tarting up or a gimmick to sell, but somebody needs to evolve the genre lest it die out. It's a small miracle we've had so many sequels recently when fighting games sell less and less with every new game released.
While the current "chess game" style of fixed frames, guaranteed hits, et. al. works, it's also limiting and ultimately not much like real fighting. There's little room for improvisation because the relationships aren't dynamic enough. No real physics, still hit box based. With current-gen tech some innovative designers could do some really out of the box stuff in this genre. It would likely be clunky and not as good as conventional fighters in its first release so it would need some tarting up or a gimmick to sell, but somebody needs to evolve the genre lest it die out. It's a small miracle we've had so many sequels recently when fighting games sell less and less with every new game released.
akachan ningen
Member
Gokurakumaru said:
1. they backpedalled on it because it sucked.
2. It doesn't need to be like real fighting. Real fights often end with one punch or kick to the balls. That's not fun to play.
3. It's not a miracle. Fighters have continued to thrive without much tinkering with new mechanics precisely because they were refined very early on by gifted designers. If it hasn't died out by now, it never will. FFS, people are still playing SSF2T, a game from 1994. A lot. And they don't even need to sell a lot, they just need that small group of enthusiasts.
Everything else you said is just vague and baseless. "There's little room for improvisation because the relationships aren't dynamic enough." Could you possibly say less with so many words?
permutated
Banned
Kintaro said:
Mega TRUTH award.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
This thread is a case study in genre addiction.
The thread has split into factions. There is a relatively small but very vocal community that are happy to continue playing variations on the standard themes. They view any major changes as an attack on their hobby and will viciously criticize any radical departures from the tried and tested formulas. This xenophobic group will continue to get smaller and more vocal as time goes on.
Then there is another fringe group that who are more likely to be receptive of a fighting game that breaks from tradition. Making games for this group can be risky, because their reaction to a new title is less predictable than the genre addicts. But this group has the biggest potential to grow the market and save the genre from languishing in the final stages.
The thread has split into factions. There is a relatively small but very vocal community that are happy to continue playing variations on the standard themes. They view any major changes as an attack on their hobby and will viciously criticize any radical departures from the tried and tested formulas. This xenophobic group will continue to get smaller and more vocal as time goes on.
Then there is another fringe group that who are more likely to be receptive of a fighting game that breaks from tradition. Making games for this group can be risky, because their reaction to a new title is less predictable than the genre addicts. But this group has the biggest potential to grow the market and save the genre from languishing in the final stages.
PataHikari
Banned
akachan ningen said:
Has anyone here played the kengo games on PS2? they were basically samurai rpgs with the bushido blade fighting system. (they were actually by the developers of bushido blade).
I played the second one, it was a decent but flawed game. I heard the third one was a improvement. (but it was jp only).
I played the second one, it was a decent but flawed game. I heard the third one was a improvement. (but it was jp only).
timetokill
Banned
Basically, more games like Fist or Twist.
For more fun input, fighting games should totally steal the "auto-heal when not hit for long enough" mechanic from FPS games. That should make for fun fights.
For more fun input, fighting games should totally steal the "auto-heal when not hit for long enough" mechanic from FPS games. That should make for fun fights.
anotheriori
Member
SapientWolf said:
The Faceless Master
Member
well, the only idea mentioned in this thread that hasn't been given a serious try is hardcore physics based reaction and damage, and i guess with the popularity of Mario Kart Wii, there is a full market of people out there who are ready to play and have fun with games with a random outcome.Plaid Socks said:
oh, wait, there was that one idea about a shenmue q.t.e. fighter that sounded totally awesome.
i've been waiting on fighting games to die since arcades doe, but i guess the grim reaper is on vacation in aruba...
SapientWolf said:
Nope, you're wrong. I can only speak for myself, but I know that I don't fall into this group. There's a lot of people who don't like SF3 or any of the Marvel games because they're not similar enough to SF2, which I find to be ridiculous as change is a good thing. Then there's people who say that UFC, wrestling, SSB and powerstone type games are not fighters because they're not traditional enough, which is just a waste of time to argue about. Genres are an afterthought.
Basically the suggestions that I'm going to be sketchy about are things like "get rid of hitboxes, add physics, procedural animation, over the shoulder view, damage a specific body part until it's injured, take away HP and gauges completely, make it more realistic, no juggling, more stun animations, make stun animations random, add more dynamic 3D parry moves, etc, etc."
The reason these ideas sound a little dodgy is because they're either extremely difficult or impossible to implement and balance. And practically speaking you might even need to make the game split screen or use system link or online. You can have the most far out, weird sounding and innovative ideas in the world and you might be a genius, but the rest of us have zero frame of reference for these ideas and are going to reject them immediately. You'd literally have to write a massive design doc about how all of these changes work, or show us a demo, otherwise they just sound stupid. And it's not a coincidence that these ideas tend to come from people who know very little about existing fighting games.
The Blue Jihad
Member
west said:
So is what I'm reading accurate? That most of the higher-level players here don't really use the high-risk longer combinations, often eschewing them for more effective and shorter combos?
More and more I'm thinking that the removal of long combinations wouldn't be terribly detrimental.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
UC1 said:
.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
akachan ningen said:
They backpedalled on it because it was ill-suited to SF2. I say it's disappointing because it was the one attempt at innovation the game is offering. Now I love SF2. SSF2T is my favorite fighter. And I love the fighters that are still being released. But the fact is this year's glut is an anomoly, not the norm.
And note I also didn't say that Capcom or anybody else should stop making the games they do now. I specifically says somebody should build a new IP which doesn't have any expectations to live up to or fanbase to lose.
The fact that you laugh off my comment about options proves you don't get it. At all. 3rd Strike is stuck with 3 playable characters precisely because of the limiting systems of hitboxes, 2d planar motion, priority, and the whole idea of safe moves. The moment you takes something like Chun Li's low mk and make its effectiveness based on momentum and positioning you have a whole new ballpark to play in.
And again, I'm not suggesting a true 3d system gets applied to SF or that Tekken gets a physics system put into its 3d space, but there's a whole world of options that just don't get explored in fighters. Regardless of how much you may want every game to play like digital chess hopped up on red bull, there's a whole world of people out there who would like the King to sidestep the queen if he's smart enough to move a foot to the left.
As an aside how many fights between similarly ranked fighters have you actually seen that end with a single punch knockout? I can think of precisely zero.
timetokill
Banned
Reno said:They already have that mechanic in several games.. mainly tag-based games like Tekken Tag, DOA, Capcom's VS games, etc..
and that mechanic is also in Street Fighter 4 via Saving Attacks, so now both 2D and 3D fighters have it.
damn, and I was just joking too :lol
I guess I don't play enough fighting games
The Blue Jihad said:
Not really. I'm just saying damage and lenght is not the most important thing. Number of hits or length also does not really say anything about the damage, nor the difficulty of the combo. (There are really hard 2 hit combos for example).
But it is kind of self explainatory that high risk stuff and tournaments dont really go hand in hand (Applies to all genres, not just fighters). That does not mean there is not a place for it, and in the end the definition of "high risk" is allways depending on the player skill. I have seen some crazy shit by excelent players, but they where good enough that it was not risky for them.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
anotheriori said:
So basically fighting games are getting worse, and the evidence is gamerankings. :lol
Reviewers don't have any faqs, guides, or videos available, if they're luckily they'll figure out some of the BNB techniques, and they don't have the time and resources to find out if anything is broken or overpowered. People are still finding stuff months, even years after a game's release. You can't reference a "source" for a subjective opinion.
Reviewers don't have any faqs, guides, or videos available, if they're luckily they'll figure out some of the BNB techniques, and they don't have the time and resources to find out if anything is broken or overpowered. People are still finding stuff months, even years after a game's release. You can't reference a "source" for a subjective opinion.
anotheriori said:
And with your username, you didn't put a KOFXII pic?
There you go :
I don't want to start a fight here, but I think Smash Bros does a few things right to improve fighting, making them easier to get into.
The shared moveset is something I like in fighting games. That let's you concentrate on what the MOVES do, their properties, charge time, block frames and so on. Mind you, I still love pulling out a qcf, hcb or a raging storm but if the genre wants to get a larger audience simplify to shit.
The life bar paradigm could use some shakings too. It's not that important but a freh new way of deciding who's the winner could be nice, the launching stuff in Smash is really fun and works to me.
More 3 on 3 fights! Play KOF people.
akachan ningen
Member
temjin said:
Ever try playing that without the item boxes? It's completely boring.
viewtiful_dru
Member
Dr.Hadji said:
no.