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[Raxum]

Random aside, anyone got an idea how to call these "building" games, like Terraria, Gnomoria, Factorio etc?

Gnomoria and Factorio somewhat belong into the sim genre, but I cant get a grip on how I'd call these type of games overarchingly. Terraria/Minecraft arent really "sim" type games.

It's kind of difficult, in my opinion, to put Terraria and Gnomoria in the same group. I like the Survival craft name for Terraria/Minecraft, but Gnomoria and Factorio are more kind of Strategy sim games. Also, some people put Terraria into the "Metroidvania" tag.

I gotta say I have some problems with the way we describe genres though, we tend to be too broad and/or define genres by mechanics rather than what the actual experience represents. I guess it's why genres seem to cross over so much. Either way, the guys from Extra Credits explain it much better than I could in this video (LINK).

 

[Toma]

It's kind of difficult, in my opinion, to put Terraria and Gnomoria in the same group. I like the Survival craft name for Terraria/Minecraft, but Gnomoria and Factorio are more kind of Strategy sim games. Also, some people put Terraria into the "Metroidvania" tag.

I gotta say I have some problems with the way we describe genres though, we tend to be too broad and/or define genres by mechanics rather than what the actual experience represents. I guess it's why genres seem to cross over so much. Either way, the guys from Extra Credits explain it much better than I could in this video (LINK).

Yup, watched all of their videos, and its hard to disagree with them. But the issue at hand is that these games share a common element and are very distinct from most other games due to a very prominent game element. It sort of feels like it should get a common denominator. I was just thinking about the thread that was mentioned in this thread about these games and how to call it. Just a random thought.

 

[Raxum]

Yup, watched all of their videos, and its hard to disagree with them. But the issue at hand is that these games share a common element and are very distinct from most other games due to a very prominent game element. It sort of feels like it should get a common denominator. I was just thinking about the thread that was mentioned in this thread about these games and how to call it. Just a random thought.

I would agree that games should be grouped by a common element, but that's where it becomes trickier. But anyway, so as to not derail the thread, I would honestly say each game you listed there is grouped differently. Terraria is a 'metroidvania' Survivalcraft game, Minecraft is a 'survival craft', Gnomoria is a town management simulation with RTS elements and Factorio is somewhat of an RTS. Personally I like to make some small distinctions like that, because Minecraft and Terraria, while similar in underlying mechanics (dig resources, fight, build, advance), present entirely different experiences that appeal to different people (mostly due to 2D interaction vs 3D interaction)

 

[Toma]

I would agree that games should be grouped by a common element, but that's where it becomes trickier. But anyway, so as to not derail the thread, I would honestly say each game you listed there is grouped differently. Terraria is a 'metroidvania' Survivalcraft game, Minecraft is a 'survival craft', Gnomoria is a town management simulation with RTS elements and Factorio is somewhat of an RTS. Personally I like to make some small distinctions like that, because Minecraft and Terraria, while similar in underlying mechanics (dig resources, fight, build, advance), present entirely different experiences that appeal to different people (mostly due to 2D interaction vs 3D interaction)

I totally agree that they are, in the end, different genres. But I would still say that the fact that they have this distinct mechanic and feeling leads to some aspects they have in common. I am not even questioning the genres you mentioned (except Factorio is more a sim than an RTS), and that these games are different, but maybe there SHOULD be a completely different kind of grouping/genre-tization on a different level. Like what the EC guys suggested - for example WHY we are playing games, what we are playing them for, which in movies is an overarching emotion that we want to be touched upon.

Romance movies for example.

And no conversation in this thread with me is offtopic. I can make whatever topic ontopic in my thread

 

[CzarTim]

Obviously they rely on different mechanics, but I view all those games as being fundamentally the same. In all of them you build items in an attempt to combat enemies who are trying to kill you. The only main difference is in some you are only doing it for one individual that you directly control and in some you are doing it for a group of individuals that you indirectly control. So it is the difference between saying a First Person/2D/RTS Survival Craft in the same way we say First Person/Third Person/Isometric Shooters.

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

I played or rather experienced The Plan earlier. Definitely interesting, be interested to see where they go with the idea from here. Also picked up some of the other free games. My computer is terrible (The Plan ran at like 15-20 FPS, not kidding sadly) so I have a hard time investing in computer games but will gladly try games that are free.

 

[Raxum]

I totally agree that they are, in the end, different genres. But I would still say that the fact that they have this distinct mechanic and feeling leads to some aspects they have in common. I am not even questioning the genres you mentioned (except Factorio is more a sim than an RTS), and that these games are different, but maybe there SHOULD be a completely different kind of grouping/genre-tization on a different level. Like what the EC guys suggested - for example WHY we are playing games, what we are playing them for, which in movies is an overarching emotion that we want to be touched upon.

Romance movies for example.

And no conversation in this thread with me is offtopic. I can make whatever topic ontopic in my thread

Fair enough on Factorio, though from the bit I played of the demo, it seemed like there was a fair amount of defending your base.

Defining games by what you fundamentally want to get out of the game is probably the best way I can think of to describe them, however we end up with the same problem, because certain games still appeal to wider groups, so you still end up with cross-overs. The MDA paper that was discussed in the video still shows that most games cover, in general, 2-4 of their groupings. To me, that would still end up just as confusing as the mixing of genres we are seeing with most games today, though it might serve to separate games into more descriptive groups.

One of the problems I think we have is that there was no precedent for how to categorize games. We categorize most movies and books by some fundamental story element, which isn't entirely possible with most games because we make our own experiences. This still happens to some extent with movies, especially movies that have twists and philosophical undertones, where you, as a person, have to decide about or fill in certain assumptions/gaps in the story. However, with games, your experience may be completely different to my experience. Minecraft is possibly the easiest to describe this with, as it even comes with multiple game modes that present completely different gameplay styles. A survival experience differs greatly from a creative experience, while you are still building and such, creative removes the need for resource gathering and the sense of fear for all the enemies in the game. While Survival mode definitely puts the game into the Survival Craft genre, some people only ever touch creative mode, in which case it becomes a sort of simulator/model-building game.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Survival Craft?

Seems spot on, considering those two are exactly the only common traits of all games in this genre, and without either of them, they would be another genre. Being sufficient and necessary conditions, they seem the most appropriate to name the genre.

 

[BioHazard]

Wow just found this thread. Please continue to make these, <3 Toma

 

[Toma]

Wow just found this thread. Please continue to make these, <3 Toma

I may sound like a broken record, but check out the march thread as well. Its also a bit annoying that this thread series now runs for over a month and we still werent able to tell all interested people about it, despite crossposting it basically everywhere.

 

[Deleted member 59090]

I may sound like a broken record, but check out the march thread as well. Its also a bit annoying that this thread series now runs for over a month and we still werent able to tell all interested people about it, despite crossposting it basically everywhere.

In a couple years when we take over GAF nobody will remember our humble beginnings ;p

 

[indigo-cyclops]

After seeing Shadow Spire, I inquired to participate in the beta. Turns out the game is in an 'open beta' and the dev told me to spread the word on GAF. Here's the link:

http://www.2tonstudios.com/ShadowSpire/Default.html

He also wrote a short little blurb on the background of the game, thought I'd post it here for the sake of preservation.

BTW, I'm not a member of NeoGAF (although I did just sign up), feel free to let folks know that the Beta is currently open to anyone. I will update the website to reflect that, sorry for any confusion.

Some background (if you're interested)...

Shadow Spire was 2 Ton Studios' first game project, Greg and I started it around 3 years ago and had plans to ship it on Windows Phone 7. Due to the technical limitations of Silverlight (at the time) that simply wasn't possible. So we shelved the idea and went on to build Flying Heads, Akiak, NinjaBoy and NinjaBoy iOS.

Last weekend I was looking through some old projects and came across Shadow Spire... after playing it for a bit and 2 days of bug fixing I felt it was solid enough to share as a rough Beta experience.

In general, we think the game has a lot of potential, but understand that there is still a lot of work to do on it. We've shared it out for free to see what kind of interest it generates and depending on how that goes will decide what to do next.

Thanks for the offering to play the Beta hope you enjoy it.

 

[Krystof Koreni]

6.03

Yoink!

 

[Toma]

Yoink!

Yeah, but that is not level 3

 

[Krystof Koreni]

Endless embarrassment. Here's a more modest time for Stage 3!

 

[Warren Ellis]

http://indiestatik.com/2013/01/01/top-50-most-anticipated-indie-games-of-2013/

http://8bithorse.blogspot.it/2010/10/2d-radar.html

i think that those lists are useful

 

[Toma]

Bought Cities in Motion 2. First real level after the tutorial that I need to build a public transportation system for:

 

[CzarTim]

How does the gameplay in Cities in Motion 2 work? I've only heard about it by name.

 

[Toma]

How does the gameplay in Cities in Motion 2 work? I've only heard about it by name.

I only played the tutorial so far, but the basic premise is:

"Mayor: HALP! HALP! WE NO HAVE PUBLIC TRANSPORTS!"
"Player: Let me build some trams for you!"
"Mayor: YOU OUR SAVIOR!"

Your task is to figure out how to optimise the transportation network by deciding on which means of transportation, which routes, prices, pricing zones and you can even build new streets if needed to improve the situation. And for that you need to take into account worker/students/tourist travel routes, problematic and congested areas in your city,etc.

 

[CzarTim]

That's interesting. Traffic is my favorite part of city builder games.

 

[Toma]

That's interesting. Traffic is my favorite part of city builder games.

The developers of this game quite apparently think the same.

 

[Toma]

After finally being done with tinkering with the controls, I started up my first bus line- Line 1 Inner City S:

Lets see how much that is in regard to the whole city!

Yikes, still a lot to do.

 

[platypotamus]

I only played the tutorial so far, but the basic premise is:

"Mayor: HALP! HALP! WE NO HAVE PUBLIC TRANSPORTS!"
"Player: Let me build some trams for you!"
"Mayor: YOU OUR SAVIOR!"

Your task is to figure out how to optimise the transportation network by deciding on which means of transportation, which routes, prices, pricing zones and you can even build new streets if needed to improve the situation. And for that you need to take into account worker/students/tourist travel routes, problematic and congested areas in your city,etc.

Sounds about right for the first game. Surprisingly challenging to set up effective mass transit too

 

[Alex Connolly]

I hope they've fixed the traffic merging problem that the original had. Played hell with bus routes.

Looking forward to getting my hands on CiM2.

 

[Toma]

I hope they've fixed the traffic merging problem that the original had. Played hell with bus routes.

Looking forward to getting my hands on CiM2.

Didnt notice any illogical traffic problem yet. However, the challenge seem to be a bit bugged. I was at 6% coverage for a while, now I am back to 0%. That is kinda gamebreaking since I need to get at least 15% to finish the level. Same with another challenge that asks me to transport 70 passengers from A to B which have bus stops RIGHT in front of it. The game is still lots of fun though. My current progress:

 

[Alex Connolly]

Intriguing. Hopefully the issues resolve themselves.

Nothing has quite yet topped ol' Traffic Giant.

 

[Toma]

Yeah, the game seems to be a bit bugged atm. Hope they fix it, it seems to be very fun otherwise.

 

[Lacabra]

Destructoid played InFlux on their twitchtv channel earlier, I should have posted it in here when it was on. But if you want to see a guy play through the game for 4 hours, go hither.
I'd say he finished up about an hour and a half from the ending at the pace he was going, maybe a bit more. Obviously, spoilers if you want to play the whole thing yourself! Everyone really liked it though, which is rad.

 

[Toma]

Destructoid played InFlux on their twitchtv channel earlier, I should have posted it in here when it was on. But if you want to see a guy play through the game for 4 hours, go hither.
I'd say he finished up about an hour and a half from the ending at the pace he was going, maybe a bit more. Obviously, spoilers if you want to play the whole thing yourself! Everyone really liked it though, which is rad.

Cool to see, good luck with the release btw

 

[Toma]

Repost for exposure:

Well I'll just do a quick plug for it anyway, because I would like to see the game come to full fruition. It has some interesting concepts and a fair amount of them are already implemented.
Planet Explorers - Currently Free Alpha (PC)
Kickstarter - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1757963851/planet-explorers
Voxel-based sandbox survival game, in a sci-fi setting, with giants shooting lasers? What more could you want. Build a base, build vehicles, and weapons, and design them yourselves in the creation toolbox.

Seriously, check out some of the user-generated content that the devs are showcasing in the kickstarter. If this could get a decent following, it would make for a very interesting experience with modding and user-created vehicles and weapons.
Alpha 0.52 download - LINK

They just reached the half way mark of their goal with 18 days to go. I am rather positive about this, but lets hope for the best

 

[Sarcasm]

Ah I have this installed..haven't played it yet! Gonna try it now (maybe stream it too lol)

 

[Toma]

Ah I have this installed..haven't played it yet! Gonna try it now (maybe stream it too lol)

Planet Explorers? Post a link if you do end up streaming.

 

[Sarcasm]

Will do..just gonna grab some water and food..and alcohol heh.

 

[Sarcasm]

Alright I am streaming...

Internet is unsteady atm though but w/e!

http://www.twitch.tv/montholdpickle/new

 

[Raxum]

Repost for exposure:



They just reached the half way mark of their goal with 18 days to go. I am rather positive about this, but lets hope for the best

The 0.53 download seems to be working again from gamefront so here is the link: http://www.gamefront.com/files/files/23105538/Planet_Explorers_a0.53.rar

 

[RayStorm]

I don't think Cities in Motion 2 qualifies as an Indie game, given that it's also released to brick and mortar. Regardless, in about 30 minutes on twitchtv:

We're hosting a livestream walkthrough of Cities in Motion 2 tonight at 7 p.m. GMT (11 a.m. PDT). We'll also be answering your questions (or as many as possible!) about the game, it's development and future. Ask us in the comment-section and tune in at: twitchtv.com/paradoxinteractive

 

[Toma]

I don't think Cities in Motion 2 qualifies as an Indie game, given that it's also released to brick and mortar. Regardless, in about 30 minutes on twitchtv:

Thats debatable, but that discussion is difficult to solve anyway. There are some indies who saw retail releases after their success, so that doesnt really qualify as non-indie/indie for me, even though thats the definition yeah. But if a game has a small german/swedish/whatever publisher, I still tend to consider them Indie. I just exclude games from BIG publishers. CiM is developer by a rather small team, and just because Paradox picked them up, doesnt make their development cycle AA/AAA/whatever.

In the end, it just comes down to a subjective definition, so thats a bit hard to argue about.

 

[Wok]

April 24th.

Amazing. How did you happen to know?

 

[One Foul Note]

Amazing. How did you happen to know?

Urrrrggg, that's too far away. Waits gonna be painful for sure.

 

[Toma]

Amazing. How did you happen to know?

Some serious cross-thread quoting going on here. ;p

Urrrrggg, that's too far away. Waits gonna be painful for sure.

Super Non-Indie, but I just want Fire Emblem so badly atm

 

[RayStorm]

Thats debatable, but that discussion is difficult to solve anyway. There are some indies who saw retail releases after their success, so that doesnt really qualify as non-indie/indie for me, even though thats the definition yeah. But if a game has a small german/swedish/whatever publisher, I still tend to consider them Indie. I just exclude games from BIG publishers. CiM is developer by a rather small team, and just because Paradox picked them up, doesnt make their development cycle AA/AAA/whatever.

In the end, it just comes down to a subjective definition, so thats a bit hard to argue about.

It's just that I never would have considered to look for CiM(2) in the Indie thread. After all CIM2 got its boxed release yesterday as well, so it's not like other games that become a download sensation and then get to live on the shelves of a brick and mortar store.

But to actually contribute a bit about what I want to talk about: My thoughts about CiM2: I'm surprised that they changed the interface quite a bit from CiM1. I don't quite understand how I can stimulate city growth. Whereas in Transport Tycoon that worked fairly obvious in CiM2 it kind of feels like the best and most direct way would be to just plop some roads? That seems a bit different than I was expecting.

I also don't know how I feel about the time tables, they seem to add quite a bit of micromanagement and I feel like the game lacks a clear indicator as to when I should increase the times. Also the way it automatically dispatches busses/trams according to the time tables is not really clear to me after playing for 6 hours yesterday.
The way cars are going back to the depot is not clear either, especially if I set them to loop continuously (by selecting the first stop for a second time). It oftentimes appears that they just take an extra round through all the stops just empty before heading back to the depot.

And I'd have welcomed a much faster additional speed setting.

But all of that having been said, I wonder how much more work it would actually be for Colossal Order to make CiM 2 into CiM City, after all, theoretically speaking cities expand and grow by themselves, there's a fairly well working transport simulation going on and as far as I can tell, at least the simulated people at first glance act believable. Seems like it would be a smallish step to actually add some more Sim City like features to it...

 

[Toma]

But all of that having been said, I wonder how much more work it would actually be for Colossal Order to make CiM 2 into CiM City, after all, theoretically speaking cities expand and grow by themselves, there's a fairly well working transport simulation going on and as far as I can tell, at least the simulated people at first glance act believable. Seems like it would be a smallish step to actually add some more Sim City like features to it...

I actually had the same thoughts yesterday. The traffic model seems to work somewhat, and the sims already have their needs/daily paths accounted for. Only thing stopping them from doing just that is probably just the size of their team, so that they want to focus on one aspect properly instead of muddying many.

Btw, sorry for confusing you about "having a CiM" conversation here. Since most of my PC games fall into Indie category, I just throw almost anything in here, since its likely that other posters in this very thread have similar gaming tastes to me. Outside of the monstrous OP's, it just works as a get together thread for people with similar gaming tastes, hiding from the AAA part of the industry I guess. Also, it bumps the OP and exposes more gaffers to the indies listed, which is always a good thing.

Thanks for the link btw, will watch later to pick up some tricks.

 

[One Foul Note]

Super Non-Indie, but I just want Fire Emblem so badly atm

Meh, at least you got a release date on the 3ds game you want. I'm waiting on Etrian Odyssey which will be listed as TBA till the end of time.

Anyway, as to not derail too much. I recently made purchase of the groupees latest indie bundle which (I didn't know this before) is a good way to get Anodyne which was in the last months indie list if anyone is interested. But the game that has really stood out is Bleed which made a really good first impression. If it keeps the quality up then it could be a real special game and well worth the price of admission on that bundle.

 

[KDR_11k]

Gnomoria is Dwarf Fortress Lite and whatever DF is (life sim?) it's not the same genre as Minecraft.

 

[Toma]

Gnomoria is Dwarf Fortress Lite and whatever DF is (life sim?) it's not the same genre as Minecraft.

We know its technically not the same "genre" as we define it so far. Read up on the discussion we already had and click the Extra Credits video link for an explanation on why the "genre" classification we are using is a bit weird.

 

[Toma]

Meh, at least you got a release date on the 3ds game you want. I'm waiting on Etrian Odyssey which will be listed as TBA till the end of time.

Anyway, as to not derail too much. I recently made purchase of the groupees latest indie bundle which (I didn't know this before) is a good way to get Anodyne which was in the last months indie list if anyone is interested. But the game that has really stood out is Bleed which made a really good first impression. If it keeps the quality up then it could be a real special game and well worth the price of admission on that bundle.

Oooh, awesome. Thanks for the heads up. One of the few games from last month I didnt play yet.

 

[Hofmann]

Great article about this year's games shown at GDC: Experimental Gameplay Workshop.

 

[Toma]

I annoyed them in the stream of CiM2 until they finally acknowledged my question by saying "so that Toma can stop asking", but what they said was basically nothing. This game has a LOT of potential, I really hope they add some more usability.

 

[Toma]

Great article about this year's games shown at GDC: Experimental Gameplay Workshop.

Thanks for posting, some interesting games mentioned there.

 

[gabbo]

DreadOut

An indie PC Fatal Frame, where you wander about as a high schooler, lost on a trip, taking pictures of the various hauntings/ghosts/etc. It's crowd funding through IndieGoGo at the moment if any of you are interested.

Demo here

Gaf thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=533796