-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Injustice 15 min gameplay @ EVO 12
- Thread starter Lifejumper
- Start date
Sir Garbageman
Member
Power Girl needs to be in this, that is all.
The Anti-Monitor
Banned
Any list without Joker is wrong. Come on now.
And in MKvsDC, Superman and Flash were the most used. By far.
And in MKvsDC, Superman and Flash were the most used. By far.
They probably gave him a double jump because they want Batman to have strong mobility in the game. I assume Batman is going to be a strong character in this game simply because of the nature of his moveset (as we have seen so far). Options are never a bad thing, after all.
As for a list of 14? I'll play
1. Atrocitus (Big Red Lantern fan and I just think projectile vomiting plasma blood would be a thing they would like at NR so his chances seem good in my opinion)
2. Black Adam(To replace captain marvel, here is hoping)
3. Doomsday(Was meant to be dlc for mk vs dc, right? Seems like a waste to throw the idea away)
4. Parasite (I think he power set could make for an interesting move list. I imagine something similar to Shang Tsung)
5. Mera (I think she is a strong female character who is very capable of doing some damage. I believe her to be an ideal member of the roster)
6. Zatanna (...ok, I just like magic)
7. Sinestro (He is an iconic villain that I think non-comic fans would reconize. Not to mention he is just cool)
8. Darkseid (See sinestro)
9. Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes. He is my favorite teen character in DC as of right now.)
10. Booster Gold (because fucking booster gold, that's why)
11. Lobo (for reasons everyone else has stated)
12. Spectre (I have a thing for these vengeance characters)
13. Cyborg (Need a black guy in the game for status quo)
14. Poison Ivy (feel like she would be a good trap and spacing character and the plant based moveset would be different from everyone else. That being said, I am actually kind of fearful that this game is going to be over-saturated with batman characters)
Until a week after release and the top tier/easy win character is found.
Just like with MK before it, people won't shut up about it until they see proof of it. That's why I'm just hoping for the best with the SDCC build.
shaowebb
Member
Right now I am just super happy to have heard that you can only initiate interactions with stage stuff by charging either (down +heavy) or (back +heavy) and that they are super slow. This means that stuff is really not so random at all and it is super punishable. If you want to access something quickly and cut out the charge it takes two whole meters sacked to do so and even then you can whiff and fail to hit if someone scouted you. This is really good IMO.
Plus it seems those charged inputs also double as moves that overhead or cause wallbounce when not used to interact with stuff on stages. Having those as moves that can be swapped for tools on stages is interesting IMO. I'd have to play it to see how this feels.
I'm noticing one of the biggest issues is screen transition cut scenes with people due to:
Given that these cannot be done at random and take a special input to do that changes some things in my eyes. It means who ever did it wanted some of those things to occur. I think the most they should do is give whoever initiated the screen transition on a stage the option to hold a button to skip the transition if they do not want to kill momentum, but the guy on the receiving end IMO should have to suffer whatever choice the guy who caused it decides as they obviously did it for particular reasons of their own.
Things are getting intersting to say the least. We're gonna need a build soon to get more player impressions on this is my only opinion. Though so far the fact that these things are not random to me changes a lot of my concerns. An option to make them all static to folks may still be needed to placate some though, but a playable build may go further than that right now so that we can see how all this feels in our hands before judging it.
EDIT:
Boon tweeted something cool guys
2 new reveals? My bet is Lex Luthor and Captain Cold.
DOUBLE EDIT:
Good news! Apparently Ed Boon mentioned in an interview that the Wager system isn't complete yet. Their not certain exactly what direction they'll be going with it so its still being balanced and this is NOT its final variation. That means any feedback we can give on that mechanic would be really good right now as they are looking to the fighting game community for feedback and aren't sold yet on how to go with this comeback mechanic.
Maybe we can come up with a way to balance this meter wagering system somehow. Any thoughts or ideas on how to make it have risks and rewards for not wagering everything and for wagering everything? Any thoughts on how to restrict it so that meter builders couldn't just get advantages by getting to it quicker? Any thoughts on it at all besides scrap it? Nows the time theory GAF. How do you make this mechanic better and balanced?
Plus it seems those charged inputs also double as moves that overhead or cause wallbounce when not used to interact with stuff on stages. Having those as moves that can be swapped for tools on stages is interesting IMO. I'd have to play it to see how this feels.
I'm noticing one of the biggest issues is screen transition cut scenes with people due to:
- they are long and kill momentum
- they reset you and your opponent to neutral corners so it resets you screen position
- they change the options for tools on the stages
Given that these cannot be done at random and take a special input to do that changes some things in my eyes. It means who ever did it wanted some of those things to occur. I think the most they should do is give whoever initiated the screen transition on a stage the option to hold a button to skip the transition if they do not want to kill momentum, but the guy on the receiving end IMO should have to suffer whatever choice the guy who caused it decides as they obviously did it for particular reasons of their own.
Things are getting intersting to say the least. We're gonna need a build soon to get more player impressions on this is my only opinion. Though so far the fact that these things are not random to me changes a lot of my concerns. An option to make them all static to folks may still be needed to placate some though, but a playable build may go further than that right now so that we can see how all this feels in our hands before judging it.
EDIT:
Boon tweeted something cool guys
ed boon said:
2 new reveals? My bet is Lex Luthor and Captain Cold.
DOUBLE EDIT:
Good news! Apparently Ed Boon mentioned in an interview that the Wager system isn't complete yet. Their not certain exactly what direction they'll be going with it so its still being balanced and this is NOT its final variation. That means any feedback we can give on that mechanic would be really good right now as they are looking to the fighting game community for feedback and aren't sold yet on how to go with this comeback mechanic.
Maybe we can come up with a way to balance this meter wagering system somehow. Any thoughts or ideas on how to make it have risks and rewards for not wagering everything and for wagering everything? Any thoughts on how to restrict it so that meter builders couldn't just get advantages by getting to it quicker? Any thoughts on it at all besides scrap it? Nows the time theory GAF. How do you make this mechanic better and balanced?
As I said in your thread on TYM, as long as the wager system is a combo breaking mechanic, it can't be balanced and will only hurt the meter meta game.
In MK9 breakers are the most important mechanic, and as such they make your meter more important then even your health bar, so you never see x-rays and only see EX attacks that are fast advancing specials with armor properties.
This however is on a whole other level though. If you win the wager, you get your health back, this is way too powerful, it will ensue everyone saves there meter for the clash just like in MK9, only not only does it effect you, your opponent will also save his meter to try and punish you for using it, so everyone would just be incredibly stingy with how they spend meter. This is kind of a shame because Injustice has much more use of the meter then MK9 did, about 6 different mechanics that require it now.
This would also cause character imbalances, one of the many reaons Kabal is top tier in MK9 is because he can spam his specials, he uses his command dash in combos just to build meter, and his IAGB is super fast and just lets him build faster then anyone else in the game, so he can spam breakers more then anyone else. Then you would have characters that have low meterless damage output who are balanced around using EX attacks or other meter skills to increase there potential, so they would be at a disadvantage compared to characters who use less meter.
They either have to remove the wager part and turn it into a normal combo breaker, and at that point they might as well just remove the animation all together as no one wants breakers that last 15 seconds and kill momentum, or not have it be a breaker, but then I'm not sure how you would initiate it, or what could even be on the line outside of more damage.
I think the absolute best solution for it would be a single player only comeback mechanic for casuals who play the story mode and arcade mode.
shaowebb
Member
At this stage unless they announce some big changes for it that may be best. Its hard to work with a wager system and balance it because it involves guessing and not reading. If this game had red health I'd say make it a system that devoured red health instead of meter to keep it from interfering with the meter meta game of hypers, but even that would come with a lot of variables over how often it could be done and after how much health or hits it could be done.
I'm kind of at a loss with this tool. The only thing I can think of as even a starting point is to treat it like a one and done mechanic like in Guilty Gear involving instakill mode. You get one use of the tool and then its out. That tool though takes your meter away PERMANENTLY though afterwards so even that doesn't fully apply to this ( though that would severely limit stage options for those that went for a clash at some point )
The big question is how on Earth do you ever wager wrong by blowing it all? Both guys would likely dump every thing they got into it to avoid the damage and if it works like that it'd require full access to all your bars to make it even viable as a guessing game. If you do that though meter builders via keep away would be broken tier for their ease of access to this dominant device. Plus I don't know if you can whiff an attempt at this or not. I simply don't know how you hit someone with it.
If it was a mashable test your might kind of thing it'd change it from a blind wager to a competition of reflexes that might work. Both mash and it starts betting meter.
If you did it that way you'd need the option to fire it off at any time for either opponent. You fire early you get way less damage as you didn't wager much meter, you try to fire later and you risk your opponent out mashing you and gaining health at the loss of meter as well as perhaps just ending the clash early on you. Such a system would require some sort of button to mash to raise your own meter wager and a seperate button to mash to lower your opponents that couldn't be mashed together to make it into a competition. Such a system would have risk and reward for either player yet still involve skill and strategy. It could work, but it'd be rough and Im not certain even then if it'd fair well. It might. It'd definitely raise tension in matches. Perhaps if this used a seperate meter you built up during the match that could be either cashed in for this mechanic or for another big move it'd be good. Sort of like ultras in SFIV.
Any thoughts?
I don't think a one and done mechanic would work well for it, as you would probably save it for close to the end of the match anyway, so by the time you used it, you probably won't need the meter anyway.
I'm completely against mashing mechanics in fighting games as it doesn't really reward skillful play, and it just destroys your hands in the long run, I was pretty upset they brought mashing back to UMVC3 after they removed it in vanilla.
The mechanic is rather stupid and poorly thought out, which brings me back to what I said earlier, they just threw something together as a proof of concept because they wanted the animation in, because two super heroes clashing into each other is a pretty cool super hero cliche.
So ya, single player only comeback mechanic, please do that NRS, or I guess you could take the capcom route and do what they did for pandora in SFxT, and make it look cool, but be completely fucking useless.
I'm completely against mashing mechanics in fighting games as it doesn't really reward skillful play, and it just destroys your hands in the long run, I was pretty upset they brought mashing back to UMVC3 after they removed it in vanilla.
The mechanic is rather stupid and poorly thought out, which brings me back to what I said earlier, they just threw something together as a proof of concept because they wanted the animation in, because two super heroes clashing into each other is a pretty cool super hero cliche.
So ya, single player only comeback mechanic, please do that NRS, or I guess you could take the capcom route and do what they did for pandora in SFxT, and make it look cool, but be completely fucking useless.
I really hope they don't do that. It would be such a waste to have the mechanic at all if it is useless. If it does turn out to be useless, I'd rather they just get rid of it entirely and hopefully put something that functions better in it's place if there is time for that.
Slamtastic
Member
Yeah, people complain about Pandora being useless as much as they complain about comeback mechanics being too prevalent in other games.
No [comeback type] mechanic > well made balanced one > too strong metagame dominating one > underpowered one
If you want to believe message board complaining.
No [comeback type] mechanic > well made balanced one > too strong metagame dominating one > underpowered one
If you want to believe message board complaining.
What if that IS Batman? :O
I don't really care about how mindgames factor into the wager mechanic. I'm more concerned that because it only requires 1/4 meter, people will constantly use it to break combos and it will result in clashes occuring all the time during a match, essentially breaking the flow of combat more than the supers or stage transitions already do.
Well he does have a divekick....
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
*cough* you mean Batkick.
I heard it uses 2/4th your meter to use the wager mechanic? I could be wrong, though.
shaowebb
Member
Yeah, mashing mechanics are rough on players and I'm not sure whether one and done works for it in the manner I suggested . I think my idea is okay, but by no means perfect. Just a spitball proposal of how they might be able to work with the mechanic. The problem is I just don't see the idea itself as useful yet outside of being an excuse for a cool "clashing heroes" moment.
It just breaks meta on meter and strategy so far and I can't figure out how to keep it and keep the meta intact. It may need scrapping like you said or need relegation to only certain modes to keep it from ruining balance because so far I'm hard pressed to find a way to use it that doesn't mess with meta or overly reward unskilled play.
Combo breakers are good, but they suffer from TVC and MK9 syndrome...they make using meter for anything other than them pointless. No hypers were used in TVC or MK9 over saving meter for breakers. You only see them for character kills. Breakers need some kind of seperate meter to avoid this.
I just don't know what to think on a wager system. At this point it may become as useless as Pandora to even try to keep it without destroying meta or it may just need tossed.
Ragingnight
Member
That breaker system was total garbage.
1) you couldn't bait them out and they were 100% to break a combo
2) you can get multiple breakers in a round due to it being tied to meter and how you gain meter
3) nobody ever used x-ray (in 90% cases) because breaker was 100% more valuable as meter.
and then there was the whole system mechanics that made the issue worse
1) you gain meter by attacking them and them blocking it thus benefiting rushdown char that can stay on you all day forcing you to block or die.
2) you got meter if you were getting hit (not blocking), which rewards you for making the decision of not to block.
3) you can get multiple breakers in a round if the opponent is forced to block rushdown which gives rushdown characters another advantage that zoners do not get. Because zoners get nowhere near the amount of meter gain compared to rushdown. Watch a johnny cage and how fast he gains meter when he is on you. Now go watch sindel and see how fast she gains meter for properly zoning you.
Injustice's breaker system is so far better conceptually than the MK9's one by a large margin.
They could go back to how they did breakers in the 3D games, where you just had 2, you could use them at any time and they cost nothing.
Or go the anime way and have them be a pseudo comeback mechanic, but you can only use them once, and you can punish them.
Or just not have any breakers, since this game does not need it, because you have two life bars now, combo's aren't as scary.
Or go the anime way and have them be a pseudo comeback mechanic, but you can only use them once, and you can punish them.
Or just not have any breakers, since this game does not need it, because you have two life bars now, combo's aren't as scary.
shaowebb
Member
I'll grant you MK9 breakers are flawed heavily, but the Wager system only costs a 1/4th a bar so far and there is no real reason not to wager a full load. It doesn't make sense and its going to happen super frequently in its current iteration.
For starts, wagers have to cost more to use so they aren'tall the game is about doing. Next their has to be rhyme or reason to having different sorts of wagers because If someone uses that attack then they are committed to it so why wouldn't they be preparing to blow the full bar on it working? Thirdly, it needs to be punishable. I don't like it being unblockable and interrupting stuff if that is how it works. It just wrecks the pacing as another cinematic for the sake of looking cool and thats just too much at this point. Finally, it feels random to blind wager. It doesn't seem like it'd feel rewarding at all to do...its just an excuse so far for a flashy cutscene of comic book action clashing head to head and thats not really needed.
It just feels tacked on and its dangerously threatening things so far. Its not good and needs more explanation and more work by FAR.
The lifebar thing is really true. Two bars for one character does make things livable. I like the idea of use once and punishable myself. I just think that if they want clashing scenes at all that they will have to completely toss out the entire wager system and replace it with something else to do this. Maybe you can only do a clash by spending your character trait meter and sacrificing those abilities the rest of the match? I dunno...its a defensive option from what I read that the blocker gets to initiate so it seems un-whiffable to guys wanting to avoid one thats thrown.
What if they just plain replaced it with breakers and every breaker you used completely removes a section of your 4 bar meter for the rest of the match? Naw...even then that'd be 4 breakers per character every match...the game would feel like a stalemate. I just cant figure this one out. Wager system just seems like an excuse for another cinematic and not only does this one interrupt matches to dull them, but its really unrewarding to gameplay meta.
Ragingnight
Member
I'll wait until the finish product. With no release date and for sure isn't coming out before Dec2012, there a lot that can change and probably will. I like the idea of a wager, maybe they could just simply limit the amount of times you can breaker, making that wager vital to the round.
shaowebb
Member
I'm already counting on it?
Team ups? In a superhero game? You bet! If they did it before why not in this game too? Besides, from what I hear team mode was actually how some folks got a lot of mileage out of Stryker.
My team so far would involve Grundy and one other. I really dig his chain grapples and from what I hear his special ability grapple can cause stat boosts to him that vary per the grab used. I'm gonna AA grab the hell out of people.
I'm already counting on it?
Team ups? In a superhero game? You bet! If they did it before why not in this game too? Besides, from what I hear team mode was actually how some folks got a lot of mileage out of Stryker.
My team so far would involve Grundy and one other. I really dig his chain grapples and from what I hear his special ability grapple can cause stat boosts to him that vary per the grab used. I'm gonna AA grab the hell out of people.
Grundy looks like he is a great character, for sure. As the roster is now I am looking at both him and Barry. Of course if Atrocitus makes it in this game...
I wonder how there going to balance poor grundy, the stages are really big and grundy only has one ranged move and his dash is straight awful, I mean batman has an amazing dash, just watch in the video how far he goes forward and backwards, its one of the craziest dashes I have ever seen.
Dudes going to need some armor and maybe a move that grants projectile invincibility, like green hand or lariat.
Dudes going to need some armor and maybe a move that grants projectile invincibility, like green hand or lariat.
This is false. X-rays to take damage and breakers to prevent damage averaged the same amount of use depending on the character. X-rays were seen much less by certain characters because they had enhanced attacks too efficient to ignore. Jax's armor moves were far more valuable than his grab X-ray. Johnny Cage's enhanced forceball granted frame advantage to continue with blockstrings more valuable than a whiffed counter X-ray. Cyrax's enhanced bomb resets dealt so much damage, there was no need to spend three meters on a 35% X-ray unless you used it as an anti-air to close the last round; Cyrax also wouldn't trade two bars to save 40% of his own life when two bars could kill his opponent (sometimes in one combo).
It depends on the damage granted. Ermac's midscreen X-ray combos hit around 48%, but so do his enhanced forcelift combos; however, his X-ray did 35% raw and could be timed perfectly to avoid projectiles (as his X-ray cinematic initiates, he won't be hit by his opponent's projectile and will not take damage). Characters like Kung Lao, Sub-Zero, and Reptile have practical X-rays and are able to build meter efficiently to use them. A number of characters had useful X-rays, just not everyone.
Also, MK9 breakers are perfect but I'm not arguing about it.
beyond_death
Member
New teaser:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SziDloB_QrM&feature=plcp
No footage or anything just a story teaser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SziDloB_QrM&feature=plcp
No footage or anything just a story teaser.
shaowebb
Member
Dat speech
This has me pumped for story mode...the scary thing is that sounded sort of like Superman's voice. I'm likely wrong and its President Luthor, but this would be a helluva twist if things were going down in this like the "Justice Lords" universe from the Bruce Tim Justice League.
Can you imagine something like THIS as part of this setting's story.
EDIT:
I'm still trying to balance Wagering Clashes so I'm just gonna keep spitballing ideas here.
...what if what you wagered was life instead of meter? You cant regenerate that, it has negatives to wagering a LOT, and if you lost you eat your wager in damage. It also severely limits your options on when you can use it. Just an idea that actually makes this have risk and reward to any kind of wager. It'd even add something to Grundy. I don't know how he's gonna get in on people as slow as he is. Especially with Wonder Woman's distance grapple with lariat, batman's tech, Harley's stuff, and all that jazz. If Grundy has more life than other cast one of his advantages is even in Clash he is able to wager more than you meaning no matter what if you throw down with him it costs a lot of health.
Might still need you to pop a quarter bar to activate even in this form though.
Dat speech
This has me pumped for story mode...the scary thing is that sounded sort of like Superman's voice. I'm likely wrong and its President Luthor, but this would be a helluva twist if things were going down in this like the "Justice Lords" universe from the Bruce Tim Justice League.
Can you imagine something like THIS as part of this setting's story.
Immediately what I thought of after seeing that teaser.
Max Knight
Member
Looks solid. As long as Lobo is playable, I'm playin' it.
shaowebb
Member
You know if they take this into a "Justice Lords" direction that would easily explain why the heroes would be fighting each other and why certain cast members would be wearing armor or combat gear they haven't before. It would be just so that they could try to survive against certain folks on the opposite side of the issue that might come after them.
Color me hyped. I don't think I've ever been pumped for a fighting game's story before.
Color me hyped. I don't think I've ever been pumped for a fighting game's story before.
I figure that the armor would probably just be because NR has a thing about armor. Interesting idea about the different sides though. A bit of speculation, but could it be possible that the character select screen is set up to represent who is on what side?
Huh? I thought it would be just the standard heroes vs. villains type story, but with the heroes pushed far enough that they are willing to kill ala the Justice Lords. (though it would be interesting to see which members go the extremist route if the Justice League divided)
shaowebb
Member
With a story like this I think Green Arrow is even more of a lock than before. Guy is MR. Social issue and is WAY documented against being for things like those with powers lording over the public and forcing their views on others. Given the tv show and nature of this story I'd say he is in.
I cant wait.
I cant wait.
beyond_death
Member
Ed Boon on twitter:
"INJUSTICE game demo at the DC booth in Hall C at 6:30 PST. We will reveal 2 more characters!"
How much longer is it? I'm too lazy to calculate time difference.
"INJUSTICE game demo at the DC booth in Hall C at 6:30 PST. We will reveal 2 more characters!"
How much longer is it? I'm too lazy to calculate time difference.