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Interesting article on rising game prices (from MTV?)

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
EDIT:

Link to the article:

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1515122/20051128/index.jhtml?headlines=true


The Xbox 360 launched last week, garnering much fanfare for the $400 premium version of the system that gamers lined sidewalks to buy and that eBay bidders spent up to $1,500 to get their hands on. The $400 tag hasn't been seen on a game console in America since the 1995 launch of the Sega Saturn.

But that wasn't the only old-time price point making a return.

Those buying "King Kong," "Madden," "Call of Duty" or most other non-Microsoft-developed titles for the 360 will have noticed that — after nearly a decade of declining game prices — $60 gaming is back. Even within the gaming industry, the higher cost for games is getting a mixed reception.

Many developers and publishers say the reason for the price hike is simple: Next-gen games, because of graphics, coding, voice acting, cinema scenes and everything else gamers expect, cost more to make. "As a studio we can certainly speak to the amount of man hours and increase in staffing for next-generation content," said Cord Smith, the producer of February 2006 car-combat title "Full Auto." "As a gamer, it seems like it costs a lot to enter this new generation."

Smith said his team has had to include extra artists in order to render the combustible racing environments in "Full Auto" with the level of detail that will appear genuinely next-generation. Extra coders were needed to make sure the game can run on new hardware. That adds up to Smith's "Full Auto" team being 50 strong, compared to less than 20 who worked on "Cel Damage," the first Pseudo Interactive title for the original Xbox.

Smith's explanation has been echoed by several publishers and developers working on the Xbox 360, but not everyone in the industry thinks that an increase in prices makes business sense.

"What other entertainment medium that's mass market is at $60 a pop?" said Cliff Bleszinski, lead designer at developer Epic's 360 title "Gears of War," due next year. "If video game pricing continues to go up, we will crash."

Bleszinski, like Smith, acknowledges that developing a next-gen game is more expensive than making a title for an Xbox or PS2. He estimates that his "Gears of War" team will max out at 30 or 40 people, as opposed to the 25 he would have used to make a game for the pre-360 era. But he thinks increasing prices is not the answer. "I think video game prices need to go down," he said. "Fifty dollars is far too much for an impulse buy. Sixty dollars is completely out of the question."

At the launch of the 360, only the Microsoft-developed "Perfect Dark Zero," "Project Gotham Racing 3" and "Kameo: Elements of Power" are available for what has been the industry-standard price of $50. Titles from Electronic Arts, Sega, 2K Sports, Ubisoft and Activision all cost $5-$10 more than that.

"We believe that premium titles command premium pricing," said EA spokesperson Tammy Schachter when asked why EA's first-run 360 titles were selling for $10 more than the company's first-run titles for Xbox, PS2 and GameCube. "These are deep, rich, complex games."

Publishers acknowledge that some of the price jump is being used to cover the overall company cost of learning to create games for new gaming hardware. When asked why "King Kong" costs $10 more on Xbox 360 than it does for Xbox, Tony Kee, vice president of marketing at Ubisoft, said, "Today, creating and marketing games is more expensive than it ever has been. Higher prices on select titles compensate for those additional costs."

When interviewed by MTV News in September, Peter Moore, the Microsoft vice president in charge of marketing and first-party game development for Xbox, suggested another way to cover those costs: selling gamers extra content for their games via Xbox Live: "It may well be that we sell the game at $50 but then have a plan to maybe somehow get an extra few extra dollars revenue by value — adding to the consumer on top of that."

That approach could reap a company some cash in exchange for new tracks in a racing game or new levels for a first-person-shooter while keeping game prices down. But Smith, a Sega veteran, said there could be pitfalls. "Early market tests at Sega had people saying, 'Don't penny-pinch me,' " he said. " 'I don't want to pay 50 cents or a dollar after I buy a game for content that should have been there to begin with.' "

Joseph Olin, president of the RIAA-esque Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences, pointed out that consumers didn't shy away from $60 in the past. "That price point was the norm during the glory days of the cartridge business back in the late '80s and early '90s until the advent of the PS1," he said.

In fact, games for the Sega Genesis, Super Nintendo and the mid-'90s Nintendo 64 sometimes went for even more. "I can remember spending $80 on a cartridge," said Smith, who, while in the seventh grade, had even spent $100 to import the Japanese version of "Strider" for his Genesis. It was Sony's entry to the market with the first PlayStation in 1995 that began to push prices down to $50 and even $40 for new games.

Still, the historical context doesn't pacify Bleszinski. "I'm a fairly successful video game designer who can afford a lot of $50 games," he said. "But there's a psychological barrier that I have there with a game that stinks that I spent $50 on. [It] still stings."

So he doesn't want $60. He doesn't want $50. "I would kill to have a [top-quality] game that's jam-packed with an amazing story and amazing moments and four hours long and costs 20 bucks." He said it's possible, if only the industry cut costs by making games shorter and sweeter, but that too many gamers and publishers demand 20-hour games that are filled with the padding of having gamers repeat the same tasks again and again.

Does this mean that "Gears of War," at least, won't cost a bundle on the 360? "I honestly don't know," he said. "It could very well come out and be $60 or whatever and I could sound like a hypocrite or whatever, but I am just one gear in the machine."

Go Cliffy B!

The EA quote is pathetic. Premium, UNFINISHED games like Madden? F them.
 

crunker99

Member
it seeems more and more lately major news outlets are turning out all these game articles as if they just hired some 20 year old kid who owns an xbox or a ps2 as their researcher.
 

Gio_CoD

Banned
crunker99 said:
it seeems more and more lately major news outlets are turning out all these game articles as if they just hired some 20 year old kid who owns an xbox or a ps2 as their researcher.
What's wrong with this article? All of the ridiculous quotes are from industry insiders.
 
Indeed

good article and I always thought Cliffy B was an alright d00d :)

the EA quotes are pretty horrendous and flat out retarded and I'm glad to see there are people in the industry that find the increasing prices a cause of concern
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
crunker99 said:
it seeems more and more lately major news outlets are turning out all these game articles as if they just hired some 20 year old kid who owns an xbox or a ps2 as their researcher.

WTF, this was a well written article, with industry quotes from a variety of sources. What do you want? Also, I believe the writer posts on GAF, so you ought to watch your mouth.
 

Vieo

Member
I hardly ever buy games at $50 unless it's a game that I REALLY want. I guess this means I'll be waiting longer.
 
Haleon said:
I'm really starting to like Cliffy B. He seems like a genuinely good guy.


I know. I can't believe I'm hearing this from him. I'd also kill for a top-notch four hour game for $20 bucks. Not all games would (or should) be like this, but I really think that it would help the industry.
 

crunker99

Member
shantyman said:
WTF, this was a well written article, with industry quotes from a variety of sources. What do you want? Also, I believe the writer posts on GAF, so you ought to watch your mouth.

sorry i mis stated my claim.. what i mean is when did all these outlets decide that gaming news was something they needed to tack onto their agendas? and when did all this stuff become news that was news that outlets like mtv and nbc and cbs wants to cover? and no nothign is wrong with this particular article but articles like http://www.wnbc.com/technology/5417266/detail.html put them all in a bad light
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
heavy liquid said:
I know. I can't believe I'm hearing this from him. I'd also kill for a top-notch four hour game for $20 bucks. Not all games would (or should) be like this, but I really think that it would help the industry.

When you think about it, a game w/o useless cutscenes, hours upon hours of terrible VA, or some convoluted, overlong excuse for a story should cost a good deal less than what most modern games cost to make. I for one would be in complete support of such a move. It seems that developers just think that all consumers are "demanding" such things, but I really doubt anyone would shed a tear over fewer cutscenes- it's just an easy formula for crappy uncreative developers to follow and to divert the attention away from actually creating good gameplay, and it costs a hell of a lot too.
 
Haleon said:
I'm really starting to like Cliffy B. He seems like a genuinely good guy.

Yeah, he used to come off as the typical annoying game design "dood", but now much of what he says holds much weight and wisdom. And because of it, I now want to check out his games!
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Yeah, my severe framerate dipping, no control customizing, skimpy on the features packing, less course including copy of Tiger Woods 2006 for the 360 is definitely worth the extra $10 I spent.
 

Gio_CoD

Banned
FortNinety said:
Yeah, he used to come off as the typical annoying game design "dood", but now much of what he says holds much weight and wisdom. And because of it, I now want to check out his games!
Same here. When I eventually get a 360, I'll make sure to check out Gears of War.
 

Raiden

Banned
At the launch of the 360, only the Microsoft-developed "Perfect Dark Zero," "Project Gotham Racing 3" and "Kameo: Elements of Power" are available for what has been the industry-standard price of $50. Titles from Electronic Arts, Sega, 2K Sports, Ubisoft and Activision all cost $5-$10 more than that.


This is good, people will be buying less crap(Ea) and more good to great games(Pgr 3, Pd0 etc)

ITS THE END OF EA FINALLY id wish.
 

Deg

Banned
MS already did this in Europe with the release of the original xbox. PRices went down again proably because they were higher than everyone else.
 

Andrew2

Banned
25 people is working on Snowblind's next-gen title. If it took 15 people to turn out a game like Champions of Norrath, maybe Snowblind might prove you don't need a large dev team.
 
AgentOtaku said:
Indeed

good article and I always thought Cliffy B was an alright d00d :)

the EA quotes are pretty horrendous and flat out retarded and I'm glad to see there are people in the industry that find the increasing prices a cause of concern


Me too. I'm still not buying 50 dollar games and I've done this since the 16-bit days. It will never catch on with me.
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
crunker99 said:
sorry i mis stated my claim.. what i mean is when did all these outlets decide that gaming news was something they needed to tack onto their agendas? and when did all this stuff become news that was news that outlets like mtv and nbc and cbs wants to cover? and no nothign is wrong with this particular article but articles like http://www.wnbc.com/technology/5417266/detail.html put them all in a bad light

You have a point then.

This guy who writes for MTV seems pretty good though.
 
Nice article. Yup, $60 for a game is far too expensive. In order to grow this industry, having games come out at $60 is not the answer. Games should be going down in prices, not going up. What we, as consumers, should do is vote with our dollars. Just don't buy the games at $60 when they are released. Eventually, they'll fall down in price, and once they do, that's when we should buy them.
 
Dr. Kitty Muffins said:
Me too. I'm still not buying 50 dollar games and I've done this since the 16-bit days. It will never catch on with me.

Ditto

I NEVER buy any brand new games anymore. All 2nd hand usually through amazon vendor system or ebay :D
 

chinch

Tenacious-V Redux
shantyman said:
When interviewed by MTV News in September, Peter Moore, the Microsoft vice president in charge of marketing and first-party game development for Xbox, suggested another way to cover those costs: selling gamers extra content for their games via Xbox Live: "It may well be that we sell the game at $50 but then have a plan to maybe somehow get an extra few extra dollars revenue by value — adding to the consumer on top of that."

That approach could reap a company some cash in exchange for new tracks in a racing game or new levels for a first-person-shooter while keeping game prices down. But Smith, a Sega veteran, said there could be pitfalls. "Early market tests at Sega had people saying, 'Don't penny-pinch me,' " he said. " 'I don't want to pay 50 cents or a dollar after I buy a game for content that should have been there to begin with.' ".
Sega must have been reading the whiners here (who probably don't buy games anyways or go on live) complaining about $2 microtransactions so we got $10 more expensive 3rd party games. :lol
 

Unison

Member
It would take a hell of a game to get me to pay $60.

With the short 360 launch games, it makes more sense to rent, frankly.

RR6 would have been a must-buy for me at $50, but I just can't justify $60 on it. I have a psychological block, I guess, even though I can easily afford $10 extra.
 

Dave Long

Banned
That EA quote is priceless. I can see that one coming up countless times throughout the next generation as they continually turn out games that don't offer as much as even their last generation games did. Didn't they even cut stuff from Madden 360? How is that offering anything "Premium" at all?!
 
I honestly think that some of these companies that are coming out with games for $60 are price gouging consumers. Yes, some of them might be justified, but I also think that some of them are using the "oh it costs more to develop for next gen" excuse to overcharge consumers.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Andrew2 said:
25 people is working on Snowblind's next-gen title. If it took 15 people to turn out a game like Champions of Norrath, maybe Snowblind might prove you don't need a large dev team.
You can bet they are making their own engine too. Are there any news about their next game? Last I heard there was a fallout between them and SOE. What are they working on now?
 

born_bad

Member
nextgeneration said:
I honestly think that some of these companies that are coming out with games for $60 are price gouging consumers. Yes, some of them might be justified, but I also think that some of them are using the "oh it costs more to develop for next gen" excuse to overcharge consumers.


I have to say, I was a bit shocked to see the 2K sports games with a $60 price tag, especially when they were selling them for $20, brand-new, last gen. It seems like NBA and NHL2k are polished up ports, so it definitely struck me as gouging.
 

stephentotilo

Behind The Games
Crunker,

I can't speak for WNBC and their gaming coverage, but MTV News hired me last spring to cover games full-time. As I'm sure you noticed, MTV made a big push to do lots of gaming stuff last week.

The network as a whole will continue to do lots of stuff on gaming. Hopefully you'll find that what I'm doing -- and what I've been doing with the 100-or-so stories I've written or aired on MTV.com, MTV and MTV Overdrive during the last 6 months -- will continue to respect your gaming intelligence. I agree with you that many mainstream reporters are clueless when it comes to games. Trust me: I'm not.

-Stephen
 

Scotch

Member
I think Cliffy B hits the nail on the head when he mentions "Impulse Buy".

I rarely buy DVD's for €20. But when they are €10 I often buy three or more. And because the DVD and packaging itself doesn't cost that much you can say they make €27 instead of €19 from me. I get three DVD's instead of one, they get more money, everybody's happy.

I think the same applies for the gamesindustry. And seeing how films cost up to hundreds of millions to make, and games 'only' up to tens of millions, I really don't get why games should be more expensive than DVD's.
 

DSN2K

Member
CliffyB forgetting the fact Movie studios possibly may have already made 200m on a product before it hits DVD.
 

Gio_CoD

Banned
Scotch said:
I think the same applies for the gamesindustry. And seeing how films cost up to hundreds of millions to make, and games 'only' up to tens of millions, I really don't get why games should be more expensive than DVD's.
The only thing I can think of is that videogames don't have a theater debut or the market penetration of DVD players. I don't know one person anymore that doesn't have a DVD player, but I still know PLENTY of people that don't have a game system.
 

Jesiatha

Member
Haleon said:
The only thing I can think of is that videogames don't have a theater debut or the market penetration of DVD players. I don't know one person anymore that doesn't have a DVD player, but I still know PLENTY of people that don't have a game system.

If DVDs cost $50 each, do you think everyone would have a DVD player?
 

nfreakct

Member
Scotch said:
I think Cliffy B hits the nail on the head when he mentions "Impulse Buy".

I rarely buy DVD's for €20. But when they are €10 I often buy three or more. And because the DVD and packaging itself doesn't cost that much you can say they make €27 instead of €19 from me. I get three DVD's instead of one, they get more money, everybody's happy.

I think the same applies for the gamesindustry. And seeing how films cost up to hundreds of millions to make, and games 'only' up to tens of millions, I really don't get why games should be more expensive than DVD's.

The videogame industry has one chance to make money on games. You release a game to market and you sell it and hope that enough people buy it at full price to make a profit. The movie industry not only has initial release towards theatres, but DVD sales, Blockbuster/Pay-Per-View rentals, TV rights sales, advertising/marketing tie-ins, and merchandising.

That's why film companies can release DVDs at a comparatively cheaper price, they're not just double-dipping, but in some cases triple and quadruple-dipping on virtually the same product to get their money.
 

Ramirez

Member
"We believe that premium titles command premium pricing," said EA spokesperson Tammy Schachter when asked why EA's first-run 360 titles were selling for $10 more than the company's first-run titles for Xbox, PS2 and GameCube. "These are deep, rich, complex games."

Damn,they ain't even trying spouting out BS like that,Madden's and Live's feature list and Madden's gameplay in particular is anything but complex :lol :(
 

Gio_CoD

Banned
Jesiatha said:
If DVDs cost $50 each, do you think everyone would have a DVD player?
No, but I still think the penetration would be significantly higher. My girlfriend doesn't really enjoy playing video games, and I don't think my parents have picked up a controller since the NES for Tetris. My brother is only a year and a half older than me, yet he has no interest in gaming.

What's one thing all of the above do actually have in common? They all like watching movies. Everybody watches movies; not everybody plays games. And I don't think it's a cost issue, I think it's just an enjoyment issue. Nintendo is right when they say gaming is too complicated for a lot of people.
 

born_bad

Member
"The videogame industry has one chance to make money on games. You release a game to market and you sell it and hope that enough people buy it at full price to make a profit. The movie industry not only has initial release towards theatres, but DVD sales, Blockbuster/Pay-Per-View rentals, TV rights sales, advertising/marketing tie-ins, and merchandising."




Yes, movies have more than one way of making money. The 1st way is releasing the movie in theaters. How well would most movies do in the theater if it cost $50-60 to go see it? I'm a lot more likely to "take a chance" on seeing a movie because it only costss $5-11 or so a ticket.

There's not guarantee that a movie that cost a lot to make is going to make a profit just because there are options to sell it (see Waterworld).

Also some of the options you listed are also options for games - Blockbuster rentals, advertising tie-ins, and merchandising, etc.
 
Perhaps a return to ye olde formula is in order? You know, the whole "easy to learn, hard to master" thing where we don't need 15 hours of fetch quests to pad out a game?
 

KINGMOKU

Member
Excellent article, and exactly what was needed. Anyone who supports higher prices ruins it for everyone else.


The EA quote is just flat-out THEM thinking videogame buyers/players are ignorant, wich is not the case. From my experiences(Drinky notwithstanding) videogame players, and folks such as youself on messege boards, are some of the most technical savvy people on THE PLANET.

Electronics always come down in cost, not go up. 400$ electronic toys, and 60$ games are above and beyond what anyone should be willing to pay.

Certainly NOT for Madden, wich is the same game, just repackaged AGAIN. How about 29$ for Madden EA?
 
Haleon said:
No, but I still think the penetration would be significantly higher. My girlfriend doesn't really enjoy playing video games, and I don't think my parents have picked up a controller since the NES for Tetris. My brother is only a year and a half older than me, yet he has no interest in gaming.

What's one thing all of the above do actually have in common? They all like watching movies. Everybody watches movies; not everybody plays games. And I don't think it's a cost issue, I think it's just an enjoyment issue. Nintendo is right when they say gaming is too complicated for a lot of people.

I think that's a big part of the issue, video games have a learning curve movies dont. I also wonder if the move to 3D gameplay (not graphics, but 3D exploration) has hindered mainstream adoption. I mean personally I love complex 3D games like GTA, Halo etc. But I know my wife USED TO play older 2D games years back when you could just move a stick up, down, left, right and press a button now and again. Modern games just frustrate her. Things we take for granted in 3D games, like being able to move and aim in 3D. She feels so frustrated when she tries to play games - cameras start running up against walls, or spin around making her dizzy. And she actually likes watching cutscenes and stories in video games.
 
But I know my wife USED TO play older 2D games years back when you could just move a stick up, down, left, right and press a button now and again. Modern games just frustrate her. Things we take for granted in 3D games, like being able to move and aim in 3D. She feels so frustrated when she tries to play games - cameras start running up against walls, or spin around making her dizzy.

I know a lot of people who like playing 2D games but cannot adapt to 3D games. They also complain that these 3D games make them dizzy and that they're just too hard to play.
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
To me, a well produced game like Halo or MGS3 can be conceivably bought at $59.99, but sports games should not be (no matter who the publisher is), unless it is a major overhaul.
 
The last 60$ game I bought was Mario Party 3 on N64 (released Aprilish 2001, bought it July 2001)

Ive grown since then, and now barely ever pay $50 for games.
 

rs7k

Member
Everything will drop after time. The PS3 and the Revolution will come out, time will pass, lots of games will come out, and prices will drop. I know I'm not jumping on the next-gen wagon if prices don't become more reasonable. Lots of people will too.
 
Good quotes from Cliffy B. on there. Been a fan of his for years, with catscan.com and all. In person he is really cool too, as he used to shop at the best buy I worked at.
 

Gio_CoD

Banned
cleveridea said:
I think that's a big part of the issue, video games have a learning curve movies dont. I also wonder if the move to 3D gameplay (not graphics, but 3D exploration) has hindered mainstream adoption. I mean personally I love complex 3D games like GTA, Halo etc. But I know my wife USED TO play older 2D games years back when you could just move a stick up, down, left, right and press a button now and again. Modern games just frustrate her. Things we take for granted in 3D games, like being able to move and aim in 3D. She feels so frustrated when she tries to play games - cameras start running up against walls, or spin around making her dizzy. And she actually likes watching cutscenes and stories in video games.
Bingo. When I was young I used to throw hissy fits when my mom wouldn't let me play the NES because she wanted to play Tetris. Hell, she even scammed me into buying the game with my own birthday money when I really wanted something else.

My brother and I used to spend endless nights playing Street Fighter and Super Mario World. My girlfriend actually beat Super Mario Bros. 3 and still plays it on her GBA. She even got a DS for games like Yoshi's Touch n' Go and Animal Crossing. But none of them have any interest in the latest shooter or 3D platformer.

We're the hardcore here. We adapt and learn new play styles. We have patience and like learning how to master Dante's combos in DMC. Normal people don't. That's the reason that games aren't and won't be mainstream unil they become more easily accessible. I think Nintendo is on the right path with the Revolution.
 
That's the reason that games aren't and won't be mainstream unil they become more easily accessible. I think Nintendo is on the right path with the Revolution.

You hit the nail in the coffin. I also like what Nintendo is trying to do, and to truly grow the video game market, games really need to be more accessible.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
A thought on game pricing, perhaps a bit related to this.

I was pondering PSP vs DS in the area of software prices the other day. Now, I'm hardly cheap; I spend way too much on gaming as it is. I have a PSP and DS. But for portable systems, I look at my DS and PSP library and see this: tally up the total titles bought during the year, and I was able to afford a lot more DS titles than PSP. On average, two PSP games get me three DS games. As a result, now that the year is almost over, I have twice as many DS as PSP games.

Hrm.

Because I'm able to buy more DS games, more titles get sales. It's not just the triple-A killer apps.

This leads me to think that one problem with jacking up game prices, is that it brings with it the danger of creating a loop of diminising returns; everybody will want the biggest games of the year... the GTAs, the Halos. When those "premium" titles cost that much more though, that's another niche or even merely A+ game that won't get bought, or will only get used sales (barring firesale discounts, obviously).

Sure, prices should come down (but they haven't for PSP yet, in general...), but it all just makes me think about how backwards the mentality of publishers seems to be. Or perhaps just plain old greedy. Sure, it's a business and that's about making money. Just because you're in it for money though, doesn't mean you have to be as evil and greedy as you can possibly be, however.

What's funny, is that a lot of the justifications for hiking already too-high game prices upward seem to be aimed at depending on the hardcore, more than casual gamers. Publishers know the hard core are addicted (let us be honest guys) and they can get away with more vs selling product to the casuals and soccer moms. In case the folks at EA haven't noticed, the average person still commonly sees videogames as pricey and almost an annoyance - the teens and kids want 'em, they cost way too much, but they have to give in and buy some to shut them up. (Wander around stores at christmas time and really listen to commentary on game shopping.) It's really hard for people to see a difference when one disc-based entertainment product - DVD movies - is selling for $15-$20 for the hot new releases, and another is selling for $50 and now $60.

I almost laugh at the thought that game publishers could price themselves into at least a quasi-crash, as the casual market they've come to depend on (especially Playstation brand name) tightens their wallet and buys a new DVD instead of Madden.
 
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