• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Interesting "Shadow of the Colossus" criticism

Salmonax said:
I know what you're saying, and I played the NTSC version. I'd be surprised to find out the game ran anywhere above 25fps at any point, and not at all surprised to find it ran as low as half that in others. I also found the controls clunky and the exploration mostly unrewarding (I could only find so many empty dead-ends before getting into "next boss, next boss, next boss" mode).

However, if I focus on the art direction, music, and scope of the battles, I think it's a gorgeous and incredibly creative game. A few of the Colossi battles are among the most memorable experiences I've had in gaming. I just wish I hadn't been fighting the controls and camera for so much of them.

Is it a bad thing when creativity and vision outstrip the actual playability of a game? I don't know. There are certainly enough highly playable games that exhibit little to no vision, and I can tell you I don't prefer them.

I can understand anybody loving the game. It's got, without sounding corny, soul. It's clearly had a lot of work put in to creating a very specific vision. But personally I just couldn't get past it from a technical stand point.
 

Somnid

Member
It reads like he reviewed SotC the novel for his classic literature class.

But SotC is a flawed game for many reasons other than what he listed, it was most of all too ambitious for the hardware but it also suffers from control problems, and a few other gameplay flaws like how it lengthens the game with a boring trek to each colosus and how the world is just for show and doesn't do anything or have anything interesting in it.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
HandMeDownClown said:
Seeing as though Team Ico is an internal Sony studio, it's rather pathetic that the game had such technical shortcomings. They should know how to exploit that hardware better than anyone.
They clearly went for "things never done before" over framerate. The game pulls off some incredible technical feats out of the hardware where such things really should not even be possible.

If you would just look briefly at the page he linked to you'd see it explained, if you couldn't see it for yourself just by looking at the game.
 

Mamesj

Banned
I love the game to death for what it is, but it deserves some criticism.

For one thing, it barely fits on the PS2. If any other game had as bad of a frame rate, as much pop in, as weirdly unrealistic physics, as many stylistic nuances (the HDR effect is a bit overdone in many parts), I would complain about it to no end (but I've hardly acknowledged these problems in SotC.)

My main complaint is that it should be on the PS3 :) but then that would require way too long of a wait...

as for the gameplay, and more along the lines of the article, that too has a lot of little problems I would complain about a lot in other games. my main problem is that I wish there was more variety in the climbing and hanging on aspects. They feel too one dimensional. I'm not sure what that would involve...just anything other than holding R1 for 15 minutes at a time.

I agree with the article that it is kind of cumbersome (and slow.) But I think ICO hit the mark with accessible gameplay mixed with a great story and beautiful artistic presentation.
 

HandMeDownClown

Neo Member
Marconelly said:
They clearly went for "things never done before" over framerate. The game pulls off some incredible technical feats out of the hardware where such things really should not even be possible.

If you would just look briefly at the page he linked to you'd see it explained, if you couldn't see it for yourself just by looking at the game.
I read through the page, and I'll admit, I don't understand a lot of it. I'm not a game designer, nor am I schooled in any sort of advanced graphic design. However, I don't think designers should be lauded for being able to achieve "real time fur effects" on the PS2 when the game itself is a hassle to play. In the case of SotC, Team Ico appeared to have their priorities screwed up. The phrase "style over substance" definitely comes to mind.
 

Mamesj

Banned
Marconelly said:
They clearly went for "things never done before" over framerate. The game pulls off some incredible technical feats out of the hardware where such things really should not even be possible.

If you would just look briefly at the page he linked to you'd see it explained, if you couldn't see it for yourself just by looking at the game.


I don't think that's necessarily a good thing for SotC. See: Half Life 2 on the Xbox. sure, it's cool they fit it on there, but it also makes the game suffer in a lot of areas. I'm happy we have SotC, but I would love a remake at some point on a system that can allow it to shine as much as it wants to.
 

Mau ®

Member
I found ICO to be bore to play, honestly.

SOTC however, was a delight. The controls are certainly not easy but is far from being a inaccessible game. I think the guy just sucked at it.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
HandMeDownClown said:
when the game itself is a hassle to play. In the case of SotC, Team Ico appeared to have their priorities screwed up. The phrase "style over substance" definitely comes to mind.
It wasn't a hassle to play for most people who played it, and if the game didn't looked the way it did, or had physics the way it had or other number of things they've achieved technically - it just wouldn't achieve what they wanted the game to convey.

It's a game stripped to the core of all the classic gaming conventions, and most certainly not style over substance. More like pure substance married with style that was needed to have that substance work. At the end of the day, it obviously didn't work for you, but it did just fine for many people.

Mamesj said:
I don't think that's necessarily a good thing for SotC. See: Half Life 2 on the Xbox. sure, it's cool they fit it on there, but it also makes the game suffer in a lot of areas. I'm happy we have SotC, but I would love a remake at some point on a system that can allow it to shine as much as it wants to.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love that too, and I think SCEJ made a mistake of not making that game for PS3 launch. It would be like a defining PS3 game now, even if they just left everything the way it is, except with higher res textures and higher polygon models.
 

DarkKyo

Member
That's ridiculous. SotC was not only beautiful and creative, but it was also a blast and incredibly simple to get the hang of.
 
dude said:
I see what's talking about, and he's right; For example ICO's camera was terrible, it never showed where you were going, always getting in the way etc. But I found it a bonus, since it gave the game a cinematic feel, which is exactly what he's talking about.
What? I don't recall any instance where ICO's camera got in the way and I just finished it recently. You could also easily move the camera around with one of the analog sticks, so the path you had to follow was never "hidden".
 

Mamesj

Banned
yeah, I can't recall ICO's camera to be a problem. My only issue with the game was that she would let go of your hand when you would run too fast. oh, and that no one bought it.
 
I liked the article but can't help but feel he was, not so much nit-picking, but holding the game up to an impossible standard. One of his major complaints, the annoying hints could easily be thought of as another if not the only means (other than boredom) of driving the player on in the quest. After all, gamers have long been used to obeying the persistent commands of disembodied voices. It could easily be interpreted as an interesting play on the convention.

Maybe I'm grasping at straws, it just seemed like at certain points so was he. All in all though it was a fantastic critique, I can't say I disagree completely with anything he wrote but my overriding impression of the game certainly seemed more favourable than his. For one thing, I actually had fun while I was playing it.
 

oracrest

Member
Oblivion said:
What? No, no, no. I love SotC, but aside from its ultra slick presentation I can't really think of something that displays its 'out of the box' game design.

The way Ueda approaches his game design, he shaves away (or doesnt even consider) a lot of mainstays of design.

Whereas, most designers only consider the fringes of "what just quite hasn't been done yet." You will see plenty of games come out all the time that take tried and true formulas, add some minor adjustment or improvement, and call it a day. Rarely does anyone look back and try and simplify or reinvent a mechanic. Ueda is rare in that he is one of the few "completely ground up" type of designers in the industry.

I could see it justified that someone describes him as being out of the box. He is one of the few designers out there who understands how destructive the normal "gamey" elements, which are all but universally accepted, can be. What improves you health are actual fruits that you shoot down from trees, not a hovering spinning box, or even an otherwise contextual looking item that shimmers unnaturally every few seconds. I think there is something to appreciate in actually taking the time to look up into a tree in SOTC, and have to discern fruits without any false assistance from a contextually destructive element. It is details like this which makes his games so engrossing. He understand that there is a significant difference between a fruit that looks like a fruit, and a fruit that "glows." On the surface its subtle, and seemingly insignificant, but it makes all the difference.

Another example is the indicator. Its not some hovering rotating arrow, but a contextual action: holding your sword up to the light to see where it shines. This doesn't work in areas where the sun does not reach, and the simple fact that this system fits into the universe of the game, adds a lot to a players acceptance of it, rather than their tolerance of it. Even the horse carries levels of realistic and perfectly believable personality that is way beyond the standard of the day. He does a good job at blurring the lines of what many gamers come to understand as pre-determined systems. Agro is the horse in the game. Not the vehicle in the game, and not the NPC either. I think a lot of gamers think of things within a game based purely on their function, but for someone to break through that wall, and convince you to think of something for what it is, not what purpose it serves you in the game I think is a truly rare and admirable level of design.

That is just a few examples, but I think that philosophy permeates many other aspects of his design. Such as the fact that there aren't dozens of enemies around every corner, but an otherwise naturally existing world, full of non threatening plants and wildlife, where the concentration of gameplay is put into a few limited number of encounters makes me really appreciate and take to heart the "fantasy" of the game, without it being mired by the same old tolkien-esque fantasy cliches that almost every other fantasy game has.

That how I see him as "out of the box."
 
HandMeDownClown said:
Want to summarize your point for me?

It's still an ugly game that plays like crap.

4ldd7pe.gif


Seriously?
 
As a dreamer, his ideas are too organic, too personal to fit the clichés that most of us consider the building blocks of game design. Ueda sidesteps convention where it gets in his way, yet not necessarily where it might get in the player's way. Thus we get deliberate and cleverly designed games, meaningful and painfully gorgeous games, that are nevertheless a nuisance to actually play, leaving Ueda's statements, in all their profundity, accessible only to the most devoted.

agree completely. his ideas are genius but the games themselves are too rough to be enjoyable to me
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
Yeah, don't agree with this guy at all.

And it looks like people are already turning this into a trolling talking point. Ugh.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
HandMeDownClown said:
Want to summarize your point for me?

It's still an ugly game that plays like crap. Concept is important, and SotC has an outstanding concept, but gameplay is (and always will be) the most important part of a game. Playing SotC is a constant struggle. You not only fight the colossi, but the camera, the framerate, and even your horse.

The game plays like crap for you? Have you tried spending some time to understand and master the controls? Because once I figured out which button is for what, it was relatively easy for me both in terms of travelling on agro, exploring the environments and tackling the colossi.

The horse fucking navigates itself, makes jumps and goes around obstacles on its own, what's so hard about it? Epona is a complete and total piece of shit in comparison, Epona is not a horse, it's a tank made of digital horsemeat.

Aside from the framerate you don't really have a point at all.

As for your comment about style over substance, it's quite the opposite, the game is nothing BUT substance, everything is gameplay, there's no fluff where you do a circle spin attack like a dickwad to find rupees, no filler enemies to fight, you seek out a boss and fight it, each boss is a different and unique challenge.
Indifferent2.gif
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
TheGreatDave said:
Here's some critisism; there's no reason Mario 64 should make a PS2 game look like a technical joke. That thing ran so damn poorly and looked so ugly in parts that it's unbearable to play. Remake it on PS3 and it could be a system seller for me. But on PS2 it was a huge disappointment. I just couldn't play it.
The framerate WAS very poor (and Ueda admits), but your comment is one of pure ignorance. Outside of the framerate, SotC was handling things technically that the PS2 really had no business doing. The game is extremely impressive and only falls down technically.

I mean, if you were playing Crysis on a mid-range PC at high detail and getting SotC-like framerates...could you realistically claim that Mario 64 was more advanced? Of course not.

I'm hoping you've properly read the technical document on SotC and what it was doing (if not, you should).
 
Top Bottom