ProtoCents
Banned
Commentary at major events is usually awesome except when Keits gets on the mic. The people that make me hit the mute button are douchebags like Jaha that get on the mic every now and then at small-time locals.
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iPlaywinner Article: What is it that makes for enjoyable commentary?
- Thread starter Fersis
- Start date
Duxxy3
Member
I don't think commentary is holding back fighting popularity at all.
There is one part i strongly disapprove of though - commentators bashing a player. There was a next level stream in particular where it just got waaaay out of hand. It is not fun to watch and it makes them look like little children. If you truly hate a player in the competition you should not be commentating their games.
Ok, well i have one other gripe.
Commentators ignoring matches and instead talking with people who drop by. That's perfectly fine in between games or in short spurts. It's not ok to do it for an hour and ignore top 8 competition. People don't watch a tournament for your commentary, they watch it to see some great games and stories played out.
There is one part i strongly disapprove of though - commentators bashing a player. There was a next level stream in particular where it just got waaaay out of hand. It is not fun to watch and it makes them look like little children. If you truly hate a player in the competition you should not be commentating their games.
Ok, well i have one other gripe.
Commentators ignoring matches and instead talking with people who drop by. That's perfectly fine in between games or in short spurts. It's not ok to do it for an hour and ignore top 8 competition. People don't watch a tournament for your commentary, they watch it to see some great games and stories played out.
Stabby McSter
Member
Well I honestly don't know approximate numbers for average sc2 streams. I'm guessing 100k? It's been months since I've actually seen one.Satyamdas said:
I mean it's getting there slowly, though. EVO saw 2mil. unique viewers, I believe? I remember seeing 50k live viewers at one point too. Maybe even higher, I was kinda distracted. D:
And yeah, who cares about raw numbers! It's just good to see that the community is growing, although probably most of them are just stream monsters. :<
alstein said:
I have to agree with this. Good play by play, good color guy.
That being said, I hate when the commentary devolves into "I wouldn't have done that" and similar things by both members of the commentary.
Overall though, things are alright commentary wise. I just don't expect much and I come away pretty happy.
Things won't really improve until major sponsors step in and shit gets real.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Who was the dude that screamed "Yo' Mahvel" when that one player snuffed the other player ragging from the peanut gallery
He's awesome, gonna guess Team Spooky?
Also I miss the commentary that was done on the first Catherine Battle Fest, my god it was glorious, nothing could be matched, DAT HYPE
He's awesome, gonna guess Team Spooky?
Also I miss the commentary that was done on the first Catherine Battle Fest, my god it was glorious, nothing could be matched, DAT HYPE
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
This. The point should ideally be for even casual onlookers to know what the hell is going on onscreen.Duxxy3 said:
I've seen Melty Blood matches, but I had a really hard time caring because I don't know the game. Oh, a 200 hit combo? Is that good? Can the other guy realistically recover from that? Dunno.
Kintaro said:
Oftentimes, you don't know what's going on a person's mind by watching vids. A very famous troll in the FGC told me how to watch vids, and what not to do. I got a lot out of it
Sometimes folks do make big/obvious mistakes, but you don't know if those were setup or not, or the prior history between the two.
(Everyone thinks the guy is a super-troll, and everyone hates the guy, but he really is super smart)
I don't mind player bashing if it's funny.
Best reply in this thread so far. I agree.~Devil Trigger~ said:
But, at the same time I don't want drab commentators. It's the reason why East coast streams blow West coast ones out of the water. One thing I like about the FGC is it's pretty chill compared to other eSports or whatever you wish to call them because it's still on a relatively smaller scale. But I realize that won't last forever with the increasing amount of sponsors/corporate involvement in FGC.
I don't want the colour commentary to die. I understand for majors it's different: no swearing, more formal presentations and analysis of gameplay is favored, but like someone else said, people who do this do it out of goodwill for the community, after working full-time jobs and more, there is no pay involved, so you have to be appreciative of that and understand who is doing the commentary and why.
Seems a lot of people here are pissed at the FGC lingo that goes around, I don't see why really. It's no different from lingo you adjust to anywhere else in eSports or sports for that matter, just the FGC lingo has the advantage of being more lighthearted and funny, and I'm not sure why people want that to go away. Yes, people regurgitate some sayings to their death, but it's all relevant when theyre doing it. And that Dr. Strange Norcal vs. Capcom 3 commentary was godlike, it was creative and it was most definitely not regurgitating the same joke over for the entire time, the guys actually went somewhere with those jokes.
So is it just people demanding professionalism from upstart streams or local streams which are not done for profit and are laid back? Who are you to tell a small crew and stream how relaxed they should be doing a stream for fun. From a major event sure, but I don't like this sentiment. If there is a middleground between the corporate expansion of the FGC and the fun aspect of it, that's what I want. FGC streams are the most entertaining around, and the "real" approach to it is something I like. Someone talking slick? Call it out. Someone angry over a match? Call it out. Trolling? Identify it and call it out. Outside of the salt, these things happen much more frequently in the FGC than elsewhere. If your tired of people going easy, stop watching streams that arent majors.
One colour commentator and one play-by-play is the best but I like the troll teams a lot of the time too.
Good combinations:
Seth Killian & Ultradavid - For the ultimate in professional Commentary. The knowledge between these two is inconceivable.
Jaxel and Mr. Quotes - Mr. Quotes's no holds barred kind of angry style goes well with Jaxels kind of calm and collected angry style.
Rush Hour - Hu is just hilarious to listen to and Aquasilk brings real knowledge to the table. It's your FGC version of the typical eccentric and rational duo and works.
James Chen and Ultradavid - I for one am a fan of James Chen bringing that knowledge to the table because he always seems to have something I never knew because I'm relatively scrubby when it comes to the nitty gritty of SF.
Jaha and the stream monsters - For when theres nothing really to commentate and the haters need to be aired out. FREE JAHA
Sp00ky and Arturo/Yipes - Sp00ky's voice is magical, and between keeping Art in line or dropping some miscellaneous knowledge when paired with Yipes who's incredibly knowledgeable. It's got that New York flavor that I'm a fan of.
Bad Combinations:
James Chen & Yipes - Chen just fawning over every word or thing Yipes says gets tiresome
D'Nyce, D'Nyce's homeboys & anyone else - Seriously, D'Nyce knows a lot but gets too caught up with shout outs and calling people out to be entertaining. He gets caught up in shit I don't care about, like his hat, his boys, etc.
Tom Brady and anyone - Shout outs to great tournament, bad commentary experience.
Skisonic and James Chen/anyone - No chemistry at all, awkwardness, James Chen usually more informed than Skisonic about anything. Also Skisonic kind of tries to be the play-by-play and the hypeman at the same time. Doesn't work.
Alex Valle and anyone - Way too monotone, incredibly knowledgeable but I feel like I'm reading a textbook.
Probably a few big ones I'm missing.
sixteen-bit
Member
Chris Hu is the best. Everything else is so less.
There is no such thing as enjoyable commentary, just "tolerable" commentary. Some more than others.
Sports commentators suck. I don't give a lick about some sweaty old man's opinion of what's going on on the field.
As for video games, pretty much the same thing. Commentary ruins everything because it's usually never enlightening, notable, funny and I'd rather not hear strange/random people make corny observations and jokes the entire time I trying to watch something from a game.
As for tournament commentary in fighting video games or what have you, nothing could put me to sleep faster considering I'm pretty ignorant of the technical skills that go into games like Street Fighter.
Sports commentators suck. I don't give a lick about some sweaty old man's opinion of what's going on on the field.
As for video games, pretty much the same thing. Commentary ruins everything because it's usually never enlightening, notable, funny and I'd rather not hear strange/random people make corny observations and jokes the entire time I trying to watch something from a game.
As for tournament commentary in fighting video games or what have you, nothing could put me to sleep faster considering I'm pretty ignorant of the technical skills that go into games like Street Fighter.
Hot Coldman
Banned
I'm pretty easy to please with this stuff, haha. I thought everyone did a great job at EVO.
Those guys at the recent SBO thingy that discovered Mike Ross's movie were great, hahaha
Those guys at the recent SBO thingy that discovered Mike Ross's movie were great, hahaha
Magus, sp00ky and ultradavid would be my most favourite commentators, especially magus. I like the mix of information he can give and still be able to change it up and just blow people up the whole time.
Skisonic is by far the worst commentator to me, every time he comes on I just want him to instantly leave. The guy is so unbelievably boring and you constantly hear him off mic complaining about something someone or trying to tell someone how to do their job. I think most people will rememberhim crying to get on the mic for TvC at evo saying it was his game even though he sucked ass at it.me have a bad memory.
Skisonic is by far the worst commentator to me, every time he comes on I just want him to instantly leave. The guy is so unbelievably boring and you constantly hear him off mic complaining about something someone or trying to tell someone how to do their job. I think most people will remember
Arozay
Member
I like the hype commentary, it's only bad combinations of the main commentators that can drain the life out of a stream. I'm not a fan of watching RTS' so I can't really compare the two experiences, but I'd imagine the pace of the games makes it an apples v oranges kinda thing.
Good list...
Also, when Combofiend plays they should just clip a mic to him and let him shit talk.
enzo_gt said:
Good list...
swag
Also, when Combofiend plays they should just clip a mic to him and let him shit talk.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Zaro said:
I dunno, hearing the commentators screaming 'BIONIC ARM' is always funny to me.
I can't listen right now, but it's funny because I was just joking about how Keits whines, comparing ski to Keits etc. Didn't actually think you were confusing Ski for Keits. Same shit happened when mvc3 came out, begging and whining to get on the mic while being wildly boring and uninteresting/obnoxious.awwyeahgurrl said:
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
It was i think it was Marlinpie, he does commentary at the Break stream for 8 way run most weeks.GraveRobberX said:
Him and Quotes are great when they actually talk about the match. That's the biggest thing--talk about what's actually going on. Don't talk about how your character was nerfed (Hi Art) when there is a match going on, don't give shoutouts when there is a match going on, don't play music from your phone when a match is going on, don't be D'nyce when there is a match going on.
I love all the hypenss of the knowledge of the SF/MvC3 vids I watch, it makes the match more entertaining. For some reason, the commentary i heard awhile back in a SmashMelee tourney Armada vs M2K was really really good. Those two knew the match up are were continuously giving the players insight on what was going on, and the match was still hyped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm8KUKEE5Rk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm8KUKEE5Rk
People cry too much about "professional" commentary. Racking your brain training to figure out how we can make it better is probably going to be more trouble than it's worth. I'd also like to point out that TNT's NBA commentary crew is hugely popular...much more so than ESPN's, and in their case you only have like 3 guys I would consider totally "professional." Marv Albert, Ernie Johnson, and Chris Webber. Other than that you have Craig Sager wearing florescent suits, Kenny and Charles bickering constantly, Jeff Van Gundy saying whatever random shit pops into his head and the Mark Jackson catchphrase generator.
I don't have my ear to the community and I'm barely involved with trying to grow it. But I do know that it is growing, and as it grows there are things that probably need to be addressed and/or improved. I don't think commentary is one of those things. But good news! It will get better over time as the commentators get more experience! I don't think improvement warrants some radical change in thinking.
As a side note, I think majors need to be majors and locals need to be locals. When I watch a local IPW tournament, I want drunk people getting on the mic insulting the players and saying things they'll regret later. When I watch a local Spooky tournament, I want to hear Chris Hu say inappropriate things in a Chinese accent. There are enough majors every year to appease the audience that wants "professionalism." I want to hear swear words and overused memes sometimes.
Shoutouts to Magus and Darry.
Shoutouts to Rush Hour.
Shoutouts to Yipes.
Shoutous to endless shoutouts.
I don't have my ear to the community and I'm barely involved with trying to grow it. But I do know that it is growing, and as it grows there are things that probably need to be addressed and/or improved. I don't think commentary is one of those things. But good news! It will get better over time as the commentators get more experience! I don't think improvement warrants some radical change in thinking.
As a side note, I think majors need to be majors and locals need to be locals. When I watch a local IPW tournament, I want drunk people getting on the mic insulting the players and saying things they'll regret later. When I watch a local Spooky tournament, I want to hear Chris Hu say inappropriate things in a Chinese accent. There are enough majors every year to appease the audience that wants "professionalism." I want to hear swear words and overused memes sometimes.
Shoutouts to Magus and Darry.
Shoutouts to Rush Hour.
Shoutouts to Yipes.
Shoutous to endless shoutouts.
XenoRaven said:
I totally agree with this. I want my Jaha trolling the monsters, Art bitching about Sim, horsehead making things awkward, random calls to the stream, and James Chen flipping tables on weeklies. But when it comes to majors, bring your A-game and professionalism into it.
AZ Greg
Member
I agree with Saty to an extent. Can and should FG commentary improve? Of course. That's a legitimate debate, but I think tying it to increased interest/stream view counts is wrong. There are more pressing problems. I do disagree with Saty's analogy to the NHL though. They have exhausted their efforts to grow interest in their sport and now they're left with what they're going to just have to accept in terms of an interest level. FG productions have a lot of room for improvement and experiment still.
To me, there are two major problems holding these productions back from being bigger attractions:
1.) Spectator sports/events/whatever are better when the thing you're watching is beyond your personal capabilities. EVO moments aren't EVO moments simply because it's "X famous fighting game player" doing something an average player can do. They're EVO moments because that person has the skill to do that unbelievable act in a tense situation. So for the intermediate level players and higher, 80-90% of a tournament is kind of boring. Sure there is a good match early in a tournament every now and then, just like there might be a great baseball game during game 10 of the 162 game schedule. But the majority are somewhat pedestrian. And as an intermediate player or higher, why would you want to watch that when you could be playing the game yourself or doing something else you find enjoyable? And if anything, taking away the current style of commentary would only hurt in these situations. As GDLK as S-Kill is, I can't imagine how fast people would be clicking the "X" on their stream if he was doing his great in depth commentary on players who aren't that great at an early stage of a tournament. At least with the current style you might have a laugh or two during the less than entertaining match.
2.) That leads to my second point. How do you make the production interesting enough that intermediate players or higher who aren't at the event want to watch? And how do you bring in the more casual viewers? Fortunately for the organizers, I think these two are intertwined. The level of play that is streamed needs to consistently be higher. Whether this means the community all leveling up enough that casuals are enthralled by early tournament play just as much as later tournament play or you stream less and limit it to higher level matches. The other big thing is filling in dead time. Finding the players for the next match, button checking, etc... It's not streamlined enough. Of course it would require more money and resources, but it'd be nice if there was always a match at a station to jump to while another match is getting setup. That way the downtime is lessened or eliminated. And of course there are a plethora of other little things that could be done. Replays, player bios, more knowledge of the bracket/bracket situation by the commentators, etc...
Solution? Who knows? I think you have to experiment. Something that I think would be an interesting experiment would be to gather matches from events that have happened within the week or recent weeks and do commentary over them and release that as a broadcast-like production. It's something that could be released bi-weekly or monthly as a video podcast type of thing. Sure it wouldn't be live so you'd lose a little hype and the commentators would have their work cut out for them sounding interested despite knowing the outcome, but it'd give you the opportunity to gather only good matches, edit out the downtime like button checks, add player bios, maybe add replays, and most importantly, explain the subtle nuances of what's going on. It would also serve to help with your commentary issues as you'd be able to more easily groom them under these circumstances and it'd be easier to find the best commentators/commentary team. Obviously this isn't meant to replace the live stream at the event and it's not something the average knowledgeable FG fan like us here, for example, would necessarily be interested in (though it would serve as a nice summary so to speak if we missed the events when they were live), but it'd allow you to test out a lot of things and it would be a good audition so to speak for the FG community to more casual viewers who may not know much about it now. And of course the obvious goal would be to get the people who watch these interested enough in the scene that they begin tuning in live. And with the knowledge they'll now have, that mid-tournament match between Guile and a Bison might be more interesting simply because they have a better understanding of the nuances or because that Guile is lamerboi and a player bio of him was given during one of these video podcast/broadcast productions and so now they're a little more invested in the outcome.
To me, there are two major problems holding these productions back from being bigger attractions:
1.) Spectator sports/events/whatever are better when the thing you're watching is beyond your personal capabilities. EVO moments aren't EVO moments simply because it's "X famous fighting game player" doing something an average player can do. They're EVO moments because that person has the skill to do that unbelievable act in a tense situation. So for the intermediate level players and higher, 80-90% of a tournament is kind of boring. Sure there is a good match early in a tournament every now and then, just like there might be a great baseball game during game 10 of the 162 game schedule. But the majority are somewhat pedestrian. And as an intermediate player or higher, why would you want to watch that when you could be playing the game yourself or doing something else you find enjoyable? And if anything, taking away the current style of commentary would only hurt in these situations. As GDLK as S-Kill is, I can't imagine how fast people would be clicking the "X" on their stream if he was doing his great in depth commentary on players who aren't that great at an early stage of a tournament. At least with the current style you might have a laugh or two during the less than entertaining match.
2.) That leads to my second point. How do you make the production interesting enough that intermediate players or higher who aren't at the event want to watch? And how do you bring in the more casual viewers? Fortunately for the organizers, I think these two are intertwined. The level of play that is streamed needs to consistently be higher. Whether this means the community all leveling up enough that casuals are enthralled by early tournament play just as much as later tournament play or you stream less and limit it to higher level matches. The other big thing is filling in dead time. Finding the players for the next match, button checking, etc... It's not streamlined enough. Of course it would require more money and resources, but it'd be nice if there was always a match at a station to jump to while another match is getting setup. That way the downtime is lessened or eliminated. And of course there are a plethora of other little things that could be done. Replays, player bios, more knowledge of the bracket/bracket situation by the commentators, etc...
Solution? Who knows? I think you have to experiment. Something that I think would be an interesting experiment would be to gather matches from events that have happened within the week or recent weeks and do commentary over them and release that as a broadcast-like production. It's something that could be released bi-weekly or monthly as a video podcast type of thing. Sure it wouldn't be live so you'd lose a little hype and the commentators would have their work cut out for them sounding interested despite knowing the outcome, but it'd give you the opportunity to gather only good matches, edit out the downtime like button checks, add player bios, maybe add replays, and most importantly, explain the subtle nuances of what's going on. It would also serve to help with your commentary issues as you'd be able to more easily groom them under these circumstances and it'd be easier to find the best commentators/commentary team. Obviously this isn't meant to replace the live stream at the event and it's not something the average knowledgeable FG fan like us here, for example, would necessarily be interested in (though it would serve as a nice summary so to speak if we missed the events when they were live), but it'd allow you to test out a lot of things and it would be a good audition so to speak for the FG community to more casual viewers who may not know much about it now. And of course the obvious goal would be to get the people who watch these interested enough in the scene that they begin tuning in live. And with the knowledge they'll now have, that mid-tournament match between Guile and a Bison might be more interesting simply because they have a better understanding of the nuances or because that Guile is lamerboi and a player bio of him was given during one of these video podcast/broadcast productions and so now they're a little more invested in the outcome.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
XenoRaven said:
I am a NBA nut, and watch alot of it, so I want to comment/add to this.
I too prefer TNT's coverage of the NBA. There is a stark difference in how them and ESPN/ABC do it.
TNT is more loose with their segments and language.I think a big part of it is Chuck, and his interactions with Kenny, and how Ernie jumps in for the straight man role.
Their interactions make the show entertaining as it is, and the production values built around support it. If Chuck was gone, andit was the same production team, I don't know if it would be the same. Kenny and Webber all day? IDK. Even if Shaq joins the crew, and Chuck was gone, not the same to me.
Despite all that, they still know their shit, which is a big thing. At for the play by play teams, I love their stuff too, Especially Marv and Kerr. Reggie not so much.
BTW, Van Gundy and Mark are on ESPN. Personally, I don't like Mark, he is alright in stints I guess. I really, really like Van Gundy though. He calls it how he sees it. He goes, that's a flop, or that was a bad call, and his randomness is funny to me.
Their studio show is not that good to me. To sterile. I hate Magic on the mic. I hate Stu. I like when Mike Turico does games though.
What does this have to do with FGC commentary?
I equate Level-Up to ESPN and Spooky/IPW to TNT in my mind. IDK.
Also, I think streams would also be better if the tournys were run smoother. Maybe have 2 stream set-ups to switch between, so there is never down time and button checks on the stream, or dead/down time.
And if these guys are loosing their voices and what not, maybe have them not commentate untill later in the day, when matches are more consequential.
XenoRaven said:
THIS
Charles=Yipes
People tune in to hear Charles, the same way they tune in to hear Yipes. "What crazy shenanigans is he going to come up with this time?"
I think totally professional commentary is boring. Of course I'm not saying I want constant "IT'S MAHHHHVEL BAYBEEEEEEEE CURLEY MUSTACHEEEEE", but you need that excitement factor, and you need that Charles Barkley unpredictability factor. Or else it's just two talking heads.
perryfarrell
Member
I don't get the clamoring for professionalism in gaming commentary. I've seen plenty of curse-free, proper, impartial, clean Starcraft 2 commentary with no tangents, ramblings or off-topic stuff. And it's friggin BORING.
I think that the Starcraft 2 casting community can actually learn a thing or two from the fighting game casters. I love the way they create their own words and memes; their blatant enthusiasm. They're a bunch of characters, in a good sense.
Gaming commentary is not on TV, it doesn't receive MPAA ratings. It's made by enthusiasts for the fans, who want it that way.
Here's an interesting perspective from an SC2 caster on so-called 'professionalism' and why it's not needed.
I think that the Starcraft 2 casting community can actually learn a thing or two from the fighting game casters. I love the way they create their own words and memes; their blatant enthusiasm. They're a bunch of characters, in a good sense.
Gaming commentary is not on TV, it doesn't receive MPAA ratings. It's made by enthusiasts for the fans, who want it that way.
Here's an interesting perspective from an SC2 caster on so-called 'professionalism' and why it's not needed.
I disagree. He actually commentates what's going in matches so that automatically makes him better than say, Jaha.ScOULaris said:
Sometimes he tends to whine about the game(AE) a bit too much in between matches, but I find it hard to blame him. When he commentating the matches however, he shows just knowledgeable about the game he really is and really works great when there's someone else there who compliments his commentating style well.
USD said:
I didn't get in here time to rep Ryan Hunter, I'm sorry USD.
and if commentary wasn't professional, we wouldn't have bionic arms all over the place. I just think there's a great difference in how games are commentated because of the nature of the game. fighting games are fast paced, compared to an FPS/RTS. there's no bionic arm equivalent in counter-strike at least.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
AZ Greg said:> *
Me and my friend call him Mr. Positive. He has something good to say about every player, even when they screw up, haha.
Him and Tirico are a good dual though.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Fuck that boring professional shit. ICE CREAM, motherfuckers.
And people actually like James Chen commentary?
And people actually like James Chen commentary?
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I don't hate James; he's a likeable guy. And his fighting game knowledge is quite good. The problem with James is that far too often he uses that vast library of knowledge to pull out some lengthy analysis or anecdote - and then when something exciting happens in the match, he ignores it and just keeps going with his story. It's anti-hype.enzo_gt said:
Parallax Scroll
Banned
See, that's the fun James Chen. But there's also the James Chen that takes waaaay too long to explain why he likes to call Combofiend "Comeback-fiend" because he's good at making comebacks. This is when he could be talking about the actual comeback that's happening onscreen at that very moment instead.Grecco said:
FallingEdge
Member
Rockefeller and Dogface will always have the best commentary.
Exactly. Peeps, get back to your roots as these two were excellent.
CPS2 said:
Exactly. Peeps, get back to your roots as these two were excellent.
Eight Diagram Bat Fighter
Banned
Requeim said:lol, was just checking the team spooky twitter out and stumbled upon this:
that is amazing
Just wait till you see the official logo. Muwahahahaha (opens illustrator)
The times I've tuned in to a fighting game tournament stream I found the commenting to be a mess. Just nonstop loudness for 'hype' and yelling while no actual game analyzing was going on because the commentators couldn't keep up with the action. They have a long way to go before they catch up to the Starcraft, Quake, and Counterstrike communities.