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[Chrono]

http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/analysis/middle-east/6796-the-crisis-in-iran

I usually skip these stupid posts but this caught my eyes:

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was reportedly one of the masterminds behind the embassy hostage crisis in 1979 where the American embassy was taken over in support of the Iranian Revolution.

Uh, fuck no. :lol

What's Khatami's stance on this? He withdrew in favour of Mousavi but he has been quite invisible right?

He's been campaigning with/for Mousavi during the entire campaign.

Khatami, according to leaded polls from the intelligence ministry, is the most popular politician/public figure in Iran by a huge margin or something like that.


Edit: I went back and took a look at that article, just checked the last paragraph...

The demonstrations that have filled the news stories of the West represent those who want change due to Ahmadinejad's economic failure. He has reneged on all his economic promises and created an economic bomb that will go off very soon. The election victory is seen by many in Iran as a continuation of such failed policies. Ahmadinejad has done nothing for the 3 million unemployed. While the catalyst for these demonstrations was an election, the election issues were the economy and unemployment. The Western media continues to propagate the demonstrators represent Iranian public sentiment, they fail to see the economic legacy that haunts the country or a very important issue that day by day is becoming even clearer - the demonstrations are simply supporters of candidates who were massively defeated.

OMG. :lol

The moron who wrote this ought to be taken out and shot for being this ignorant and stupid.

 

[MrGame&Watch]

http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/analysis/middle-east/6796-the-crisis-in-iran

You really can't take that article as truth. It's main mission is to discredit so-called "western thinking" and show Islam as the true solution to all human problems. It's sounds like the Fox News for your everyday neighborhood jihadist

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I don't think you know Iranian history.

The British Empire no longer exists and the people involved in that part of Iranian history aren't alive or in power. Khamenei is an old man that holds old grudges and as such he stands in the way of any meaningful change.

To label an entire country (and all of it's people) 'the most evil' because of events that occurred 30-50 years ago is absolutely fucking stupid.

 

[APF]

Rambling nonsense

Oh STFU already. If you're not even going to bother don't bother.

 

[Malleymal]

So CNN shows that they are now preventing people from protesting by lining the guards at the entrance of all the protest sites... cant the people just go somewhere else

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw9sIVeuIIo&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf33cdrE41E&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjcgYycnlHI&feature=player_embedded

 

[electricpirate]

I agree with you there. There is no way we will support the dissenters militarily. We can't do it and they wouldn't want it. Shut up Klein. . . listen to Reza Aslan.

Read the whole article, Klien's point isn't "hey we shouldn't say anything without backing it up militarily"
it's
"Us taking a side publicly on this is dangerous for the protesters."

 

[APF]

Which only goes to prove how inapt those analogies really are. The argument Klein actually attempts to support is that reformers themselves are distrustful of American interventionism, which again is likely true but not necessarily the point; his throwaway argument, that if we don't use weak an equivocal language we'll empower our enemies, is only asserted and done so in the last paragraph. Face it, the article is not the golden calf you wanted us to worship.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

So CNN reports explosions in Teheran?

 

[schuelma]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/

Andrew Sullivan has great coverage

 

[Gallbaro]

Well, the next 48 hours will determine what happens...

 

[Azih]

The British Empire no longer exists

It didn't exist when the shit in Iran went down in the fifties either.

and the people involved in that part of Iranian history aren't alive or in power.

Yeah but their actions have defined Iraniah history for the last fifty years, especially since the Western puppet Shah was supported wholeheartedly by the West while he was doing Very BAD Things(TM).

A full fledged British apology for 1953 and the support for the Shah would go a long way towards healing old wounds.

 

[Azih]

By far the most hillarious thing in this thread is Cooter completely and totally ignoring all the comments by actual Iranian activists that want the American government to KEEP IT'S DAMN MOUTH SHUT AND KEEP THE FUCK OUT. I have absolutely no idea why though.

I mean I can see why these sorts of misunderstandings happened in the past when the world was a larger place and it was much harder to communicate, but it's just extremely confusing why in this day and age Cooter would cling to his misconceptions so strongly in the face of comments by actual Iranian reformists, the very people he is purporting to support.

 

[Stoney Mason]

By far the most hillarious thing in this thread is Cooter completely and totally ignoring all the comments by actual Iranian activists that want the American government to KEEP IT'S DAMN MOUTH SHUT AND KEEP THE FUCK OUT. I have absolutely no idea why though.

I mean I can see why these sorts of misunderstandings happened in the past when the world was a larger place and it was much harder to communicate, but it's just extremely confusing why in this day and age Cooter would cling to his misconceptions so strongly in the face of comments by actual Iranian reformists, the very people he is purporting to support.

Your first mistake is taking anything Cooter say seriously as it relates to politics. He can't escape his ideological cage.

 

[Dega]

This been posted?

Suicide bomber attacks Khomeini shrine in Iran

TEHRAN (Reuters) - A suicide bomber blew himself up at the mausoleum of the father of Iran's revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, state media said Saturday, in an attack coinciding with more unrest over a disputed presidential vote.

EDITORS' NOTE: Reuters and other foreign media are subject to Iranian restrictions on their ability to report, film or take pictures in Tehran.

"A few minutes ago a suicide bomber exploded himself in the shrine," police official Hossein Sajedinia was quoted by the semi-official Mehr news agency as saying.

Press TV said the attacker died and eight people were injured. It said the attack took place at the northern entrance to the Imam Khomeini shrine.

Supporters of defeated presidential candidate Mirhossein Mousavi set on fire a building in southern Tehran used by backers of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a witness said.

The witness also said police shot into the air to disperse rival supporters in Tehran's south Karegar street.

Elsewhere in Tehran, riot police deployed in force, firing teargas, batons and water cannons to disperse protesters defying a ban on demonstrations, state media said.

Witnesses said 2,000 to 3,000 people had gathered, far fewer than the hundreds of thousands involved in earlier rallies.

The reported attack on Khomeini's mausoleum seemed likely to stir outrage among Iranians who deeply revere the Shi'ite cleric who led the 1979 revolution that toppled the U.S.-backed shah.

The past week of protests have been the most widespread expression of anti-government feeling since the revolution.

Iran's highest legislative body said it was ready to recount a random 10 percent of the votes cast in the June 12 poll to meet the complaints of Mousavi and two other candidates who lost to Ahmadinejad.

Mousavi, whose supporters have staged vast unauthorized rallies in the past week, has demanded the election be annulled.

Security forces had turned out in strength to prevent any further rallies in the Iranian capital, a day after Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei told protest leaders they would be responsible for any bloodshed if unrest continued.

WAFTS OF TEARGAS

Teargas billowed up from Enghelab (Revolution) Square as riot police confronted demonstrators, a witness said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE55F54520090620

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Iranians being shot in front of camera...HORRIBLE!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmmixxfKggk&fmt=18

This is very graphic!!

 

[empty vessel]

Oh STFU already. If you're not even going to bother don't bother.

I would seriously like to know what makes the Iranian government your "enemy," which you've described it as being. Objectively, it's silly, and there are plenty of people right here in the good old US who pose more of a threat to your everyday well-being, especially economically (Wall Street) and to your health (insurance and pharmaceutical companies), than anywhere in Iran.

We know why the American business class considers the Iranian government an enemy: it kicked them out of the country 30 years ago and won't allow them to make money off its vast natural resources. But why do you align your interests with those of American businessmen, when the interests they seek to protect have nothing whatsoever to do with you?

The point I was making in my prior post was that I don't really believe you have a sincere and principled interest in seeing people who actively dissent avoid government repression. For example, you exhibited a dismissive attitude of Westerners whose dissent was met with government force during the G8 summit.

The fact of the matter is that the only thing you are defending here is a personal political judgment about who you think is better to rule Iran disguised as concern about dissenters being repressed by government forces. Further, that political judgment is really rooted in little more than official and business-class propaganda about Iran. And, on top of that, you're calling on the President of the US to publicly express that political judgment. This is none of the US government's concern, nor is it any of my concern, and it really shouldn't be any of yours. I would prefer the US President focus on those domestic interests that pose real and substantial threats to me and my well-being.

 

[Azih]

You're right, all the problems in the world are the fault of the US.

Peace

And that's a extremely stupid straw man argument. The current theocracy in Iran is a *direct* result of US and UK actions in the fifties and support for a despot for more than twenty years following. The US and UK have *no* positive leverage *at all* in the country because of actions taken forty and twenty years ago.

Those actions had *consequences*, and the only thing to do now is to learn from them i.e: don't help overthrow a popular democratic leader and install and support a fucking tyrant that isn't supported by their citizens.

Face it, it's going to take a lot of careful diplomacy and trust building gestures to get things back to a normal keel, and no that does not include randomly labeling the country a member of the "Axis of Evil" in response to something it had absolutely no involvement in.

 

[Azih]

By far the most positive thing about what is happening right now is that it is becoming increasingly impossible for the Iranian authorities to hold on to the revolution of 1979 as a rallying cry. They were the revolutionaries who were being shot at then; now in 2009 they are showing how they have morphed into what they fought against.

Fighting and resisting unjust tyrannies is how Shiism was actually born, and it's always been deeply ironic that the political Ayatollahs of Iran seemed incapable of realizing when they became the tyrants.

Edit; But it must be remembered that in 1979 the revolt against the Western backed Shah was much more widespread across Iranian society than what is happening in 2009, and if this becomes a civil war than the protesters will be crushed.

 

[APF]

empty vessel: Dude, seriously? First off, you are demonstrating a very interesting blindspot as to why I might be using phrases like "emboldening our enemies;" second, in terms of my own personal perspective I don't believe I have responded positively to *any* protesters of *any* movement damaging property or engaging in random vandalizing, including those Iranians who are damaging public monuments, so your attempt at "gotcha"ing me is wildly misplaced. "Dissent" != vandalism. Trying to justify random acts of vandalism as principled dissent is extremely difficult when the assailants are largely privileged middle-class educated bourgeoisie--at the very least it harms the cause, something you allege to care about when the act in question is speaking truth but apparently dismiss when it's throwing a brick at a storefront window, how principled. Third, your presumption that my support for these protests are largely due to my desire to see a certain political "candidate" "lead" the Iranian people is also wildly misplaced. Stop fucking projecting because you feel your hate for capitalism means you have to speak in support of oppression.

 

[dionysus]

Awesome, moral equivalence of G8 leaders and how they handle protesters and what is going on in Iran.

 

[Stoney Mason]

By far the most positive thing about what is happening right now is that it is becoming increasingly impossible for the Iranian authorities to hold on to the revolution of 1979 as a rallying cry. They were the revolutionaries who were being shot at then; now in 2009 they are showing how they have morphed into what they fought against.

Fighting and resisting unjust tyrannies is how Shiism was actually born, and it's always been deeply ironic that the political Ayatollahs of Iran seemed incapable of realizing when they became the tyrants.

Edit; But it must be remembered that in 1979 the revolt against the Western backed Shah was much more widespread across Iranian society than what is happening in 2009.

I never thought this was going to be the trigger for a new revolution at least in the current moment. Personally as an outsider I think it's a good sign however that this has caused all the turmoil so Iranians can get a sense that turmoil is possible again and is perhaps a worthy thing if the cause is just. The sentiment just has to be a little more wide spread across the country for it to have a chance of really working. But these things and movements have to begin somewhere.

 

[APF]

empty vessel is just being dumb in this thread, it's the necessary consequence of being so strident in opposition to the specter of capitalism that you see enemies in allies and allies in enemies.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

When the protesters request help from the US or the UK, they'll tell us.

The most politically neutral thing would be a UN force or solution even though everyone here thinks the UN is a joke.

 

[Chumly]

empty vessel is just being dumb in this thread, it's the necessary consequence of being so strident in opposition to the specter of capitalism that you see enemies in allies and allies in enemies.

You forgot the rules that empty vessel posts by.....

1. Everything is the US fault no matter what
2. Western media ALWAYS distorts EVERYTHING they report on about any country especially the middle east
3. If any country other than the US does something bad we cant talk about it because the US is worse.

 

[APF]

When the protesters request help from the US or the UK, they'll tell us.

The most politically neutral thing would be a UN force or solution even though everyone here thinks the UN is a joke.

Indeed, I have heard some protesters and dissidents ask for UN intervention of some sort, however I disagree that this would be politically-neutral, and I disagree that it would be seen as neutral in the minds of those opposed to these protesters and their cause.

 

[empty vessel]

Stop fucking projecting because you feel your hate for capitalism means you have to speak in support of oppression.

Who is projecting?

Awesome, moral equivalence of G8 leaders and how they handle protesters and what is going on in Iran.

And why not?

You forgot the rules that empty vessel posts by.....

1. Everything is the US fault no matter what
2. Western media ALWAYS distorts EVERYTHING they report on about any country especially the middle east
3. If any country other than the US does something bad we cant talk about it because the US is worse.

(1) is incorrect, which is not to say the US is not at fault for many things. When you have a lot of power, you have a lot of responsibility for what happens, because it is your actions that will have the most reverberations in the world.

(2) is incorrect, but only marginally so. The Western media will distort, but it will not necessarily distort everything. More often, the distortion is in the inordinate amout of attention focused on a country officially designated as an enemy State; the willingness to assume the worst about a country's government officially designated as an enemy with far less corroborating evidence than would be required if the country were our own or an officially "friendly" one; and the amount of outrage expressed that would not otherwise be expressed were the country not an officially designated enemy.

(3) is incorrect, although I think it's important to understand why we're talking about it. Iran is so much discussed because (and only because) the US has designated it an official enemy state. This gives license to Western media to focus attention on it and to emphasize its negative aspects in service of official US government and powerful private interests (of which there are of course many negative aspects of the Iranian government, as in many, many, many other places, including the US).

This is an attempt at providing balance and trying to (marginally) correct for the injection of prejudices and biases introduced by Western media in these kinds of discussions.

 

[APF]

I think you need to step back and view this outside your forced anti-capitalist perspective, which is hamstringing your ability to view these protests objectively. Your comparing them (negatively?) to the G8 protests is telling, and not in a good way.

 

[empty vessel]

I think you need to step back and view this outside your forced anti-capitalist perspective, which is hamstringing your ability to view these protests objectively. Your comparing them (negatively?) to the G8 protests is telling, and not in a good way.

You may be right, but I consider it the opposite. That your inability to see a comparison between them and protests of the G8 (as well as other protests, like those of the Democratic and Republican national conventions this year) is telling, for the reasons explained in my prior post.

 

[APF]

No, I can see comparisons between the two (and in fact have made them above), and the ones you draw fail for many reasons--most of all in terms of perspective. But if you want to argue all of these protests are valid and defensible, for example, or that all of these protests are hindered by individual Bad Actors, or that responses to all of these protests have been marred by Bad Actors, then there are legitimate points to be made. But trying to suggest the response of US police to anti-war protests has been on an equivalent scale is just mind-blowingly ignorant.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

EXTREMELY GRAPHIC..Girl shot dead by Basij

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbdEf0QRsLM&fmt=18

I wish I didn't watch that, but then again, I'm glad I did. So shocking.. those brave people.

 

[Deku]

Is there a point that people keep posting these graphic videos? It's not like Poli-GAF is split right down the middle on the issue and there is some moral imperative to change minds. At some point, it becomes voyeuristic in the worse sense to watch these protesters get killed by the American style oppression.

I mean, I'm still counting the bodies from the last G-8 protest.

 

[Gallbaro]

Is there a point that people keep posting these graphic videos? It's not like Poli-GAF is split right down the middle on the issue and there is some moral imperative to change minds. At some point, it becomes voyeuristic in the worse sense to watch these protesters get killed by the American style oppression.

I mean, I'm still counting the bodies from the last G-8 protest.

At this point, the rest of the world already knows what is going on and it is entirely for the Iranians who have gotten around the internet crackdown, why youtube lifted its violence standards and twitter postponed a shutdown (Damn American state department infidel meddling, asking this of youtube and twitter).

They need to storm the castle, probably now or never.

 

[speculawyer]

Damn. My heart goes out to these people seeking only freedom and honest government.

I wonder if Mousavi will call for a public mourning of the victims . . . which will start a loop of mourning gathering, repression of mourning gathering, more victims, another mourning gather, etc.


Side-note. I was reading a whole bunch Iran stories right before I went to sleep and I had the most awesome dream about being in Iran and watching things live. I dreamed about visiting some neighboring country (which doesn't make sense because the neighboring countries are largely warzones) and then crossing border to see for myself. I talked to all these young kids, I explained the view as an American watching, and I saw protest. Awesomely cool vivid dream.

 

[speculawyer]

Is there a point that people keep posting these graphic videos? It's not like Poli-GAF is split right down the middle on the issue and there is some moral imperative to change minds. At some point, it becomes voyeuristic in the worse sense to watch these protesters get killed by the American style oppression.

You don't have to click on them if you don't want. Just seeing all the links to violence is very informative.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

At this point, the rest of the world already knows what is going on and it is entirely for the Iranians who have gotten around the internet crackdown, why youtube lifted its violence standards and twitter postponed a shutdown (Damn American state department infidel meddling, asking this of youtube and twitter).

They need to storm the castle, probably now or never.

Internet is the only way to get news out of IRAN regular media is worth shit after the crack down

 

[Gallbaro]

Damn. My heart goes out to these people seeking only freedom and honest government.

I wonder if Mousavi will call for a public mourning of the victims . . . which will start a loop of mourning gathering, repression of mourning gathering, more victims, another mourning gather, etc.


Side-note. I was reading a whole bunch Iran stories right before I went to sleep and I had the most awesome dream about being in Iran and watching things live. I dreamed about visiting some neighboring country (which doesn't make sense because the neighboring countries are largely warzones) and then crossing border to see for myself. I talked to all these young kids, I explained the view as an American watching, and I saw protest. Awesomely cool vivid dream.

Mousavi is gonna be arrested soon, the two ways I can see significant change now happening is if State Media goes rogue or if the crowed gets up to the next level and as I said earlier, it needs to happen soon for as the momentum seems to be currently there.

/armchair.

 

[wolfmat]

Imagine you standing there, filming a girl dying on the streets. Of course there's a point to it, how the hell can you question that? Damn, dude.

 

[NetMapel]

I think if and when this thing blows over, the Iranian government will be making a phone call to China to buy their internet censorship software.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I think if and when this thing blows over, the Iranian government will be making a phone call to China to buy their internet censorship software.

I really hope it doesn't just "blow over". This is Iran's first real chance to change things since 1979.

 

[dionysus]

Pretty sure that was a tongue in cheek post. That being said, that was the first death link I have clicked and I definitely will not be doing it again.

 

[speculawyer]

I would seriously like to know what makes the Iranian government your "enemy," which you've described it as being. Objectively, it's silly, and there are plenty of people right here in the good old US who pose more of a threat to your everyday well-being, especially economically (Wall Street) and to your health (insurance and pharmaceutical companies), than anywhere in Iran.

(I know I'm jumping in but I want to clarify my view on this . . )

I don't view the Iranian government as any kind of threat against me. They are not. They are some 2nd world country on the other side of the planet. They are absolutely NO threat to me.

This is about supporting people who want more freedoms and want more say in how their country is run. It is empathy.

In fact we want to emphasize that we don't view Iran as a threat because we want to make it clear that we are not trying to meddle in their own internal affairs out of our own self-interest. Don't give the Mullahs a rational excuse to blame anyone else but themselves for their own incompetent governing of their country. They've got a pretty well educated public and they've got some great natural resources . . . their economy should be running much better than it is.

BTW, did people see that Kahmeni used the classic canard? He actually put some blame on "The Zionist run media". What a fucking clown. These are you own people . . . address their issues and stop blaming people that have nothing to do with the situation.

 

[speculawyer]

I think if and when this thing blows over, the Iranian government will be making a phone call to China to buy their internet censorship software.

Off-topic . . . I heard a story that the internet censorship software that China wants installed on every PC contains stolen code, so the company that made the original code is suing the PC makers to prevent them from installing it. :lol An interesting clash of copyright law and censorship.

I really thing the west needs to come down heavy on China for their IP violations. We run a massive trade deficit . . . it is time for them to stop getting a free ride by stealing so much of our IP.

 

[empty vessel]

This is about supporting people who want more freedoms and want more say in how their country is run. It is empathy.

But we don't even know what they want. What freedom are we talking about? None of us knows Iranian society sufficiently well to be able to say.

And just to add a couple more perspectives:

The Iranian People Speak, Ken Ballen and Patrick Doherty:

Much commentary has portrayed Iranian youth and the Internet as harbingers of change in this election. But our poll found that only a third of Iranians even have access to the Internet, while 18-to-24-year-olds comprised the strongest voting bloc for Ahmadinejad of all age groups.

The only demographic groups in which our survey found Mousavi leading or competitive with Ahmadinejad were university students and graduates, and the highest-income Iranians. ...

Allegations of fraud and electoral manipulation will serve to further isolate Iran and are likely to increase its belligerence and intransigence against the outside world. Before other countries, including the United States, jump to the conclusion that the Iranian presidential elections were fraudulent, with the grave consequences such charges could bring, they should consider all independent information. The fact may simply be that the reelection of President Ahmadinejad is what the Iranian people wanted.

Are the Iranian Protests Another US Orchestrated "Color Revolution?" by Paul Craig Roberts:

Commentators are "explaining" the Iran elections based on their own illusions, delusions, emotions, and vested interests. Whether or not the poll results predicting Ahmadinejad's win are sound, there is, so far, no evidence beyond surmise that the election was stolen. However, there are credible reports that the CIA has been working for two years to destabilize the Iranian government.

On May 23, 2007, Brian Ross and Richard Esposito reported on ABC News: “The CIA has received secret presidential approval to mount a covert “black” operation to destabilize the Iranian government, current and former officials in the intelligence community tell ABC News.”

On May 27, 2007, the London Telegraph independently reported: “Mr. Bush has signed an official document endorsing CIA plans for a propaganda and disinformation campaign intended to destabilize, and eventually topple, the theocratic rule of the mullahs.”

A few days previously, the Telegraph reported on May 16, 2007, that Bush administration neocon warmonger John Bolton told the Telegraph that a US military attack on Iran would “be a ‘last option’ after economic sanctions and attempts to foment a popular revolution had failed.”

On June 29, 2008, Seymour Hersh reported in the New Yorker: “Late last year, Congress agreed to a request from President Bush to fund a major escalation of covert operations against Iran, according to current and former military, intelligence, and congressional sources. These operations, for which the President sought up to four hundred million dollars, were described in a Presidential Finding signed by Bush, and are designed to destabilize the country’s religious leadership.”

And, I just want to add, the Western media's emphasizing of the "religious leadership" and the "theocratic rule of the mullahs" is part and parcel of Western media distortion. Governments do not act to topple other governments over religion. Just look at Saudi Arabia. They act to topple other governments that do not do what is in the economic interest of the economic class that controls them. The emphasizing of the Islamic nature of the government is meant to condition the Western reader and allow him or her to sympathize with the governmental objective. So, for example, if the media reports merely read, “Mr. Bush has signed an official document endorsing CIA plans for a propaganda and disinformation campaign intended to destabilize, and eventually topple, the [Iranian government],” Americans would not feel quite as motivated to cheer it along.

 

[APF]

Man, you come straight out of a comic book.

 

[Deku]

Every debate/discussion I've had with an anti-capitalist usually includes the accusation that I am simple minded, I'm under the spell of capitalist lies or that I see the world only in the black and white tones painted by my capitalist overlords. As opposed to seeing enemies and conspiracies in every corner.

Though I think coming straight out of a comic book is a sufficient description of these people.

 

[Chumly]

So empty vessel is saying that a couple thousand that protest at the G8 summit was because of the dastardly bankers and powerful people that are robbing people blind of their rights. Obviously there needs to be change!


BUUUUUUUT if a couple HUNDRED thousand people protest while being brutally surpressed in Iran we have NO idea what the people want and there probably isnt anyone that wants change. Nobody actually wants more rights in Iran.

Makes COMPLETE fucking sense.

 

[Deku]

So empty vessel is saying that a couple thousand that protest at the G8 summit was because of the dastardly bankers and powerful people that are robbing people blind of their rights. Obviously there needs to be change!


BUUUUUUUT if a couple HUNDRED thousand people protest while being brutally surpressed in Iran we have NO idea what the people want and there probably isnt anyone that wants change. Nobody actually wants more rights in Iran.

Makes COMPLETE fucking sense.

Let's not mention the fact that these G-8 protestors are usually bussed in from all over the local area nd some fly all the way from their home countries to 'protest'

Doesn't that sound a bit like the tactics governments in power use when they want to create rallies and can't find enough people locally?

But of course, that's just one of my anti-Marxist conspiracy theories.

 

[speculawyer]

But we don't even know what they want. What freedom are we talking about? None of us knows Iranian society sufficiently well to be able to say.

Read their signs. Read their blogs. It is all there to see. If you do not know, it is because you are not interested and have not put in the effort.

The only demographic groups in which our survey found Mousavi leading or competitive with Ahmadinejad were university students and graduates, and the highest-income Iranians. ...

Exactly. Where do you think revolution comes from? The poor & uneducated? They are too busy just trying to scrape a living.
Lemme give you a list of well educated and high-income people and you tell me if you recognize them: Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton.


Are there some US government funded programs? Yes . . . but they are not really driving what is happening now. They are generally programs run by corrupt exiles . . . like the Iraqi dissidents like Chalabi who lead us into a needless war. Many Iranian NGOs explicitly asked the US government to STOP such programs since there were counter-productive.

Meanwhile, while eschewing official contact, the United States attempts to financially support Iran's own nascent NGO's so that they can become agents of change within the society. Yet this program of democracy promotion has had the unintended consequence of further reducing the political space for open debate in Iran. In this new climate of intimidation, NGO's and journalists are subject to censorship and are defensively engaging in self-censorship. Prominent Iranian activists, such as the Nobel laureate Shirin Ebadi, declared their opposition to the U.S. program because of continued sensitivity about foreign, particularly American, intrusion in Iran's domestic politics. The fact that the identities of Iranian recipients of U.S. aid are regarded as classified information by the U.S. government feeds the regime's paranoia and casts suspicion on all Iranian NGO's.

http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i08/08b00701.htm?ald

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

It didn't exist when the shit in Iran went down in the fifties either.
Yeah but their actions have defined Iraniah history for the last fifty years, especially since the Western puppet Shah was supported wholeheartedly by the West while he was doing Very BAD Things(TM).

A full fledged British apology for 1953 and the support for the Shah would go a long way towards healing old wounds.

An apology would mean nothing because they'd carrying on hating the UK and US regardless because unifying their fellow Iranians against a common foe is what keeps them in power... unless of course people begin to see past it.

Khamenei and his cohorts will spread the hate to new generations in both Iran and the Western countries he blames for all of their problems. Only those people won't know why they're supposed to hate each other.