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[Makai]

Magnavox Odyssey - Atari 2600 is the clear winner

 

[kswiston]

Why are people find it so hard to see this system as a hybrid type device? It's a system that has a screen ,CPU,GPU,ram,battery with traditional type control all in a single body for handheld play.It comes with a dock that has HDMI out and some USB port so you can game on a TV.

The hybrid part is mostly marketing. We have been dealing with analogous features in the Laptop and tablet space for years. PSP 2000 had TV Out capabilities almost a decade ago.

Nintendo has made all of these features much more convenient and natural (meaning way more people will use both modes), but in terms of hardware, this is a portable system, same as any portable system or tablet.

If we were talking about the sort of software library the Switch will ultimately receive, I think it would be fair to say that the library would be a hybrid of what you would expect from both handhelds and consoles; with some games clearly targeted for home play in design philosophy, and others sticking to the pick-up-and-go nature of portable games.

If we are just talking about hardware specs, this is a portable. All of the guts have to fit into something roughly the size and weight of a 6 inch tablet (maybe with some added thickness), as opposed to the 5-10lb bricks that most powerful home consoles launch as.

 

[Celine]

Switch isn't a direct successor to 3DS. It's just a machine that exists.

In a way Switch has something in common with the Virtual Boy.
That is Switch, like VB before it, was created to be a gaming system outside the succesful paradigm imposed by NES (and before it Atari 2600) and Game Boy.
Switch isn't just a handheld or a home console, it's meant to be used as a portable two multiplayer console in tabletop mode or as a toy with games like 1,2 Switch which doesn't rely on any screen to be experienced and all of these different kind of utilization are seamless.

The other interesting thing is that Nintendo could release a handheld only SKU down the road but it would still be based on Switch architecture which means Nintendo developers doesn't have to reinvent the wheel each time to support their different systems on the market.

EDIT:

You mean the 3DS' battery life of 3 to 5 declining to 2.5 to 6 hours?

Real big decline there.

Guy is clueless and was probably fortunate enough to not have owned a Game Gear and Nomad.

 

[Petrae]

Gen5 to Gen6 is the biggest power/graphics leap, to me. Dreamcast, PlayStation 2, and Gamecube all made games on their predecessors look ancient.

 

[darkazcura]

The hybrid part is mostly marketing. We have been dealing with analogous features in the Laptop and tablet space for years. PSP 2000 had TV Out capabilities almost a decade ago.

Nintendo has made all of these features much more convenient and natural (meaning way more people will use both modes), but in terms of hardware and specs, this is a portable system, same as any portable system or tablet.

If we were talking about the sort of software library the Switch will ultimately receive, I think it would be fair to say thst the library would be a hybrid of what you would expect from both handhelds and consoles; with some games clearly targeted at home play in design philosophy, and others sticking to the pick-up-and-go nature of portable games.

If we are just talking about hardware specs, this is a portable. All of the guts have to fit into something roughly the size and weight of a 6 inch tablet (maybe with some added thickness), as opposed to the 5-10lb bricks that most powerful home consoles launch as.

With the bolded you just proved why this isn't just 'mostly marketing.'

The marketing part is Nintendo calling it a home console.

The reality of the situation is that it is a hybrid and seemingly a damn good one because of how natural it is as you put it.

Also the PSP2000 didn't double its GPU clockspeed when using TV out. This is not similar at all. The fact that the Switch's GPU runs in two modes is exactly why it is a hybrid and not just marketing speak. The amount of power the system is packing is an arbitrary definition of what is a console. After all, the Wii wasn't considered a non-console just because it was significantly weaker than its competition.

 

[Protome]

Is 3DS to Switch the biggest battery decline in portables?

Uhhh...I have some bad news for you about the 3DS's battery life...

 

[Nightbird]

All of this breaks down the second you ask "what comes after 3DS then?" The thing is slowing down and a new handheld would be incredibly redundant.

Nintendo did this when the DS came out too. They can't just say "we're killing off 3DS too" when they still have games coming and it's still doing pretty well.

Well thats Nintendo's Job to figure it out!

But seriously Guys, you using it as home console doesn't makes it any less of a handheld and vice versa.

To me it's a Handheld because i love playing when on the train, and the Switch allows me to do just that.

If someone else doesn't play at all when outside and uses the Switch as Home Console only, doesn't makes it less of an Handheld to me.
I'm not forced to play it at home just because others do, and thats the cool thing about the system.

Of course this reasoning falls flat if this argument only happens for console wars purposes

 

[supersaw]

I'll just leave this here

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/nint...intendo-said-the-ds-was-not-gonna-b-26851799/

 

[23qwerty]

Probably, but only because the 3DS is so pathetically underpowered

 

[Durante]

Instead of running in circles with the handheld vs not handheld arguments for the Switch , I wonder what the biggest leap between generations is if we just look at "top in its class" machines. I mean, 3DS is moderately more powerful than the PSP that came out over 5 years prior. Sort of a 360 to Wii U jump. It's easy to blow that away with a handheld that is actually modern for its time of release.

So if we say that this jump is Vita to Switch, which jumps have been bigger? Figure OG Xbox -> PS3 -> PS4 for the standard bearers of the past 3 gens (before pro and scorpio are factored in). The 32/64bit gen isnt as clear cut, but I suppose the N64 is ahead by most measures. Before that was what? Neo Geo?

Well, IIRC Vita was 28 GFLOPs, so Switch at 156 would be a factor 5.6 increase in raw numbers, but it's also a more flexible and efficient GPU.

The PS3 GPU clocked in at 232 GFLOPs, and PS4 at ~1800, so that's almost a factor of 8. Xbox -> PS3 was more than a factor of 10 in a similar metric -- I think console transition power increases have slowed down a bit across the board.

So yeah, the Vita -> Switch transition falls more in line with a usual console generational transition, it's only an aberration of you consider 3DS its predecessor.

 

[ScientificPizza]

I'll just leave this here

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/nint...intendo-said-the-ds-was-not-gonna-b-26851799/

it's amazing how conversations about this stuff really never change

 

[Head.spawn]

It sounds impressive on paper, but that's only because 3DS was typical old ass fuck Nintendo hardware.

Even PS Vita was over 5x the power.

 

[Oregano]

Well, IIRC Vita was 28 GFLOPs, so Switch at 156 would be a factor 5.6 increase in raw numbers, but it's also a more flexible and efficient GPU.

The PS3 GPU clocked in at 232 GFLOPs, and PS4 at ~1800, so that's almost a factor of 8. Xbox -> PS3 was more than a factor of 10 in a similar metric -- I think console transition power increases have slowed down a bit across the board.

So yeah, the Vita -> Switch transition falls more in line with a usual console generational transition, it's only an aberration of you consider 3DS its predecessor.

I've seen people suggest Vita is actually less than 20GFlops but I'm not sure what that's based on.

 

[……forgetit]

I'll just leave this here

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/nint...intendo-said-the-ds-was-not-gonna-b-26851799/

Really all that needs to be said.

 

[bomblord1]

I've seen people suggest Vita is actually less than 20GFlops but I'm not sure what that's based on.

If I remember correctly the final clocks ended up being lower than expected

 

[……forgetit]

Well, IIRC Vita was 28 GFLOPs, so Switch at 156 would be a factor 5.6 increase in raw numbers, but it's also a more flexible and efficient GPU.

The PS3 GPU clocked in at 232 GFLOPs, and PS4 at ~1800, so that's almost a factor of 8. Xbox -> PS3 was more than a factor of 10 in a similar metric -- I think console transition power increases have slowed down a bit across the board.

So yeah, the Vita -> Switch transition falls more in line with a usual console generational transition, it's only an aberration of you consider 3DS its predecessor.

Is the Switch confirmed to be that low? I pieced out pretty early in that discussion. That makes it actually weaker than the Wii u, doesn't it?

 

[kswiston]

Well, IIRC Vita was 28 GFLOPs, so Switch at 156 would be a factor 5.6 increase in raw numbers, but it's also a more flexible and efficient GPU.

The PS3 GPU clocked in at 232 GFLOPs, and PS4 at ~1800, so that's almost a factor of 8. Xbox -> PS3 was more than a factor of 10 in a similar metric -- I think console transition power increases have slowed down a bit across the board.

So yeah, the Vita -> Switch transition falls more in line with a usual console generational transition, it's only an aberration of you consider 3DS its predecessor.

I guess I missed the final specs reveal. I wasnt aware that the gap between the Switch's custom Tegra, and the Tegra versions used in other devices was so large. I guess those early rumors of >XB1 in terms of GFLOPs are up there with the biggest power overestimates ever.

At least they will be able to cheaply implement this generation's version of the DSi/n3DS if they choose to do so. By 2019 or so, it will be trivial to switch that out for a much faster chip.

 

[darkazcura]

Is the Switch confirmed to be that low? I pieced out pretty early in that discussion. That makes it actually weaker than the Wii u, doesn't it?

Flops aren't everything. The CPU is better, the overall architecture is much more modern, and then there are Nvidia vs AMD differences that have to be taken into account. If rumors are true there should also be 3x the amount of RAM available for games.

Either way those specs aren't confirmed. They are based on the leaked clockspeeds a couple months back. Some are running under the impression that those are the final numbers.

 

[Oregano]

Is the Switch confirmed to be that low? I pieced out pretty early in that discussion. That makes it actually weaker than the Wii u, doesn't it?

Not exactly due to the fact it's a more modern design.

I guess I missed the final specs reveal. I wasnt aware that the gap between the Switch's custom Tegra, and the Tegra versions used in other devices was so large. I guess those early rumors of >XB1 in terms of GFLOPs are up there with the biggest power overestimates ever.

That's FP32 figures and when it's undocked. Docked and it's 393GFlops. FP16 figures(the ones Nvidia brags about) are double those figures.

 

[Suburban Thug]

Flops aren't everything. The CPU is better, the overall architecture is much more modern, and then there are Nvidia vs AMD differences that have to be taken into account.

Either way those specs aren't confirmed. They are based on the leaked clockspeeds a couple months back. Some are running under the impression that those are the final numbers.

Will Nintendo release the final specs prior to release or will we be waiting until retail units are out in the wild?

 

[bomblord1]

Will Nintendo release the final specs prior to release or will we be waiting until retail units are out in the wild?

You'll be waiting until the system is hacked so the clock speeds can be found.

 

[kswiston]

Not exactly due to the fact it's a more modern design.



That's FP32 figures and when it's undocked. Docked and it's 393GFlops. FP16 figures(the ones Nvidia brags about) are double those figures.

Isnt the FP32 of the Tegra X1 supposed to be 512GFLOPs? Did we get confirmation that the Switch's chip is based on the X1? I realize that I am way out of the loop.

 

[darkazcura]

Will Nintendo release the final specs prior to release or will we be waiting until retail units are out in the wild?

Nintendo never releases specs so we are going to be waiting for a breakdown of the system, but even that won't clue us in on the final clock speeds (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I don't think the final numbers were settled on the Wii U until development documentation was leaked post-release. So we will be waiting on dev documentation or for the system to get hacked.

Isnt the FP32 of the Tegra X1 supposed to be 512GFLOPs? Did we get confirmation that the Switch's chip is based on the X1? I realize that I am way out of the loop.

Those are the X1 numbers at max clock rate of 1GHz. The Switch rumors have it at 750MHz+. It seems even the Shield TV struggles to maintain the 1GHz number and throttles to what the Switch is rumored to be locked at. Just rumors and all, but it's probably not far off..

 

[Oregano]

Isnt the FP32 of the Tegra X1 supposed to be 512GFLOPs? Did we get confirmation that the Switch's chip is based on the X1? I realize I am way out of the loop.

Yes at full clocks. The Switch uses lower clocks but keeps them constant. It was discovered that the Shield TV quickly downclocks to Switch levels when it gets hot.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

So if Nintendo releases a "handheld" version of the Switch which has the same shit but doesn't use a dock or have detachable controllers, does it become a successor to the 3DS then?

No

 

[Mr Swine]

Isnt the FP32 of the Tegra X1 supposed to be 512GFLOPs? Did we get confirmation that the Switch's chip is based on the X1? I realize that I am way out of the loop.

512gflops is at 1Ghz and Switch is running at 300mhz in portable mode and 786mhz in docked mode I think

 

[……forgetit]

Will Nintendo release the final specs prior to release or will we be waiting until retail units are out in the wild?

Nintendo doesn't release specs, so I assume we'll have to wait until retail. Also at the above, that makes sense. I was hoping for at least 600gf in docked mode, but the 400 range makes sense. I am worried about support though. I really doubt major third parties are coming based on the power prospect alone.

 

[Durante]

I've seen people suggest Vita is actually less than 20GFlops but I'm not sure what that's based on.

I've also seen 14 bandied about, if that were correct then it would be a ~11x increase. That would still sit pretty well in the traditional console generation range.

Is the Switch confirmed to be that low? I pieced out pretty early in that discussion. That makes it actually weaker than the Wii u, doesn't it?

Nothing is confirmed of course, but I also personally don't really see a reason to distrust the Eurogamer leak too much in this regard.

Still, even at those frequencies, it should probably perform on par with or slightly faster than Wii U in portable mode. (And of course significantly faster when docked).

 

[kswiston]

Those are the X1 numbers at max clock rate of 1GHz. The Switch rumors have it at 750MHz+. It seems even the Shield TV struggles to maintain the 1GHz number and throttles to what the Switch is rumored to be locked at. Just rumors and all, but it's probably not far off..

Yes at full clocks. The Switch uses lower clocks but keeps them constant. It was discovered that the Shield TV quickly downclocks to Switch levels when it gets hot.

512gflops is at 1Ghz and Switch is running at 300mhz in portable mode and 786mhz in docked mode I think

Thanks for clarifying. It shows how close I have been following this stuff.

The docked figures dont seem too bad. A nice boost from the Wii U, which is about what we expected. Not XB1 levels, but not a full generation behind either.

Vita still doesnt look terrible for a portable, so the undocked 720p stuff will probably look great on a 6 inch screen.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The Switch will be whatever can be spun as a positive for it.

Underpowered? "Hey it's a handheld, can't compare to PS4"

System sales? "You can't count 3DS, that's a handheld. What's important is it's destroying Wii U's first year."

It seems a quite realistic scenario lol.

 

[kswiston]

Nintendo doesn't release specs, so I assume we'll have to wait until retail. Also at the above, that makes sense. I was hoping for at least 600tf in docked mode, but the 400 range makes sense. I am worried about support though. I really doubt major third parties are coming based on the power prospect alone.

I assume you meant g instead of t on those flops

Now I am picturing a 600 TFLOP console...

 

[……forgetit]

I assume you meant g instead of t on those flops

Now I am picturing a 600 TFLOP console...

Yeah lol, 600 tf would be impossible in any modern chip, but insanely awesome

 

[GhostTrick]

I've also seen 14 bandied about, if that were correct then it would be a ~11x increase. That would still sit pretty well in the traditional console generation range.

Depends on the clockspeed. Default Vita clockspeeds are 333mhz for the CPU and 111mhz for the GPU, so 14gflops. It can go up to 444mhz for the CPU and 222mhz for the GPU, so 28~29Gflops.

 

[lwilliams3]

I've seen people suggest Vita is actually less than 20GFlops but I'm not sure what that's based on.

Is the Switch confirmed to be that low? I pieced out pretty early in that discussion. That makes it actually weaker than the Wii u, doesn't it?

IIRC, the PSVita's GPU ran at 111MHz (A little over 14GFLOPS) while unplugged, but could run at the power Durante referred to when it was plugged (2x).

The Switch has a more modern architecture than the PSVita and Wii U, so the actual performance for the Switch will be "higher per FLOP" to put it simplicity.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I've also seen 14 bandied about, if that were correct then it would be a ~11x increase. That would still sit pretty well in the traditional console generation range.

Nothing is confirmed of course, but I also personally don't really see a reason to distrust the Eurogamer leak too much in this regard.

Still, even at those frequencies, it should probably perform on par with or slightly faster than Wii U in portable mode. (And of course significantly faster when docked).

14 GFLOPS seems low considering Uncharted: GA and Killzone: Mercenaries... even more impressive titles .

 

[Suburban Thug]

Can you guys explain to me why Nintendo historically does not release specs? Is this just for home consoles or does it extend to their dedicated handhelds?

 

[Usobuko]

I prefer Wii U library over 3ds so the leap really don't excite me much.

 

[BGBW]

Game & Watch -> Nintendo DS is the biggest

 

[Oregano]

Thanks for clarifying. It shows how close I have been following this stuff.

The docked figures dont seem too bad. A nice boost from the Wii U, which is about what we expected. Not XB1 levels, but not a full generation behind either.

Vita still doesnt look terrible for a portable, so the undocked 720p stuff will probably look great on a 6 inch screen.

What will be interesting to see is if anyone can make good use of FP16. It should be able to look quite a bit better than Wii U in that case.

Can you guys explain to me why Nintendo historically does not release specs? Is this just for home consoles or does it extend to their dedicated handhelds?

Well the last time they really release specs was Gamecube but they were lost to their competitor's spin. People to this day swear the GCN was underpowered and it really wasn't.

 

[Majmun]

Are we talking about successors, or handhelds in general?

Because the leap from Vita>Switch is way less dramatic than 3DS>Switch

Vita was basically a generation ahead of 3DS when it comes to power...

 

[Breads]

I'll allow it if you allow me to compare PS3 to PS4 Pro.

 

[Vic]

Today I learned just how powerful PR can be for consumers...

Its clear Nintendo does not currently plan to make a new handheld. The switch is it, unless it flops hugely. Then they likely throw together a quick ARM + Mali design and ship it as the new Gameboy (but again, only if switch fails).

Releasing a cheap Switch console makes more sense than going through the huge necessary effort of launching a new platform.

 

[Usobuko]

Do you guys expect the Japanese developers that are prevalent in 3ds era to utilize the new leap as much as possible?

I think they are way too conservative at times. And like a vita / ps4 multiplat situation with 3ds/switch because the install based just isn't there yet.

 

[bomblord1]

I'll allow it if you allow me to compare PS3 to PS4 Pro.

Sure why not

 

[Astral Dog]

It sounds impressive on paper, but that's only because 3DS was typical old ass fuck Nintendo hardware.

Even PS Vita was over 5x the power.

It worked wonderfully at the time because it made development cheaper and appealing to some third party developers, unlike the first years of the (q)HD Vita wich is actually far more underpowered than people expected

Shame about the resolution though :S thats more a 3D thing

 

[kswiston]

I'll allow it if you allow me to compare PS3 to PS4 Pro.

I think that the 3DS was something like 5 gflops, so the difference is still going to be way bigger going from that to Switch.

 

[……forgetit]

Do you guys expect the Japanese developers that are prevalent in 3ds era to utilize the new leap as much as possible?

I think they are way too conservative at times. And like a vita / ps4 multiplat situation with 3ds/switch because the install based just isn't there yet.

Idk about that. I feel like Japanese developers underuse the PS4 half the time. I tried the latest tales demo and I couldn't help but think they were underutilizing the hardware.

 

[Nostremitus]

Nintendo themselves even say this thing is a console. C'mon man.

They also said the DS wasn't the handheld Gameboy successor too. Still waiting for their next "real" handheld if that's the case. We haven't had one in decades by that logic.


Hell... The Switch is more of a Gameboy successor than DS ever was. It can just dock to the TV now. Don't confuse PR with reality. This thing is a handful that boosts when docked. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Lonely1]

Well, IIRC Vita was 28 GFLOPs, so Switch at 156 would be a factor 5.6 increase in raw numbers, but it's also a more flexible and efficient GPU.

The PS3 GPU clocked in at 232 GFLOPs, and PS4 at ~1800, so that's almost a factor of 8. Xbox -> PS3 was more than a factor of 10 in a similar metric -- I think console transition power increases have slowed down a bit across the board.

So yeah, the Vita -> Switch transition falls more in line with a usual console generational transition, it's only an aberration of you consider 3DS its predecessor.

I've seen people suggest Vita is actually less than 20GFlops but I'm not sure what that's based on.

The Vita has two power profiles, one that requires to turn off wireless communication and the normal one. Since KZ:M ran on the second (most quoted as the device's best visuals), I like to classify the vita as a 14GFlops device.

 

[Astral Dog]

Do you guys expect the Japanese developers that are prevalent in 3ds era to utilize the new leap as much as possible?

I think they are way too conservative at times. And like a vita / ps4 multiplat situation with 3ds/switch because the install based just isn't there yet.

They are conservative because they don't want to lose millions if a game fails.
Depends if they move from Vita/PS4 to SwitchPS4. Others will move too and there will be definetly be a jump,just don't expect much of a difference from the smaller developers