GoddyofAus
Banned
The whole Western World is more enlightened then the most conservative U.S States.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Is Europe more enlightened than America?
- Thread starter Kraftwerk
- Start date
- Status
I know what golden parachute is, but it's not a term reserved for just CEOs. When you said people you make it seem like your painting everyone with a broad brush.
Rubbish King
The gift that keeps on giving
Yes.
Okay, I apologize for being unclear. I live in the U.S. I know that the majority of people don't get off scott free for anything. A lot of our prisoners are in for minor drug offenses, while the people who screwed up the economy are doing fine.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
There is no intelligent answer that doesn't boil down to "depends." Depends on what section of America versus what section of Europe. Depends on what your metric is for "enlightened." Depends on whether those sections and metrics apply to a big enough group to matter for an entire area, and aren't just the result of a vocal minority.
the right answer
Rubbish King
The gift that keeps on giving
I didn't ask for an argument
In my opinion I think that Europe is more enlightened than America, I could list many reasons why i think this, but then I realised I'd have to argue with someone over such a massive topic it would be pointless.
The Racism and awful gun laws are enough for me to answer yes, you can argue with me all you like but it is unlikely I will see your point, you could argue back that there are parts of europe like that, but none of them as "Civilised" as America.
But it's such a massive topic I didnt want to go into it, so i thought I'd show my vote without arguing with somebody over the internet.
Read my previous post and tell me again how Europe is so progressive.
Both places have their hooligans and racists. But for the overall situation, look at workers rights, or healthcare.
NEOPARADIGM
Banned
Scoring out of 100, and based on nothing more than "general vibe," I'd put Europe at like 54 and the US at like 42.
Miles and miles to go for everyone.
Miles and miles to go for everyone.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Well people from the US got a ton of Nobel-prizes. That means that America does something right. But the social security and capital punishment in the US are still two big things that make me think of the US-government as pretty narrow minded dudes.
Rubbish King
The gift that keeps on giving
This.
So they are more enlightened? Calling people fags and throwing bananas at soccer players with African backgrounds is somehow more better than... a country with different medical practices?
Also extrapolating a society's values from what fans do during sports is completely misguided. Unless you think that half the stadium chanting about the time they gangbanged the wife of the opposite team's coach also reflects on their real lives. I've heard vile vile shit in games. I've said some myself. The huge majority of them are just said for shock value.
We were playing a game and the wife of one of our star players just had a miscarriage. Guess what the fans of the opposite team were chanting about. Another time we were playing against Maccabi Tel Aviv. A good porion of the chants were about their coach and concentration camps. A few years later he came to our team and we treated him like a god when we won titles.
I might be incorect but my impression is that USA has less racism, bigger wages, worse healthcare, more violent fatal crime, bigger diversity, is more religious, is also fatter, produces more quality media and research and has more problems related to teen pregnancies. Can't say which is more enlightened as whole because there are some things I have not mentioned which are also important, the American system of governance is more united and succesful than Europeans are towards each other in terms of caring about your fellow Europeans and having a succesful united economic system. But there is problematic disunity in the US too. Also there are other important issues I care about most I mentioned above, so lets just say there are positives and negatives in each case.
))Rubbish King
The gift that keeps on giving
1: First of all, they were protesting against gay marriage, not against homosexuality itself (I think)
Even if they were actual protests with the main lovely phrase "GOD HATES FAGS" saying that they will burn in hell etc etc.
2: Yeah there is racism here but I feel as if I shouldnt have to justify it to a place where a few GAFers have said is "Institutional" Also there is a difference between yobbo cunts throwing bananas and the police beating the shit out of them..maybe we shouldnt go back...30 years also? Probably a bad idea, The fact is in terms of horrifying events recently, the shootings scare me
3: You failed to address the other posters point, it isnt that our medical practices are different, it's that our healthcare is FREE, when somebody breaks their arm in a shitty accident they dont worry about ringing for an ambulance through fear of it being expensive!
Oh shit you got cancer? Ahh that's gonna cost ya...
4:Workers Rights you totally missed, but my knowledge of the system over there is limited to GAF threads about Fastfood workers and pizza delivery boys
I'm not saying I dont like america, but there is such a flawed system it is unreal
This of course is my opinion and I know i probably got things wrong, If anybody feels the desire to address a point i made, go for it.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Agreed on both counts.
A slight peeve of mine (and maybe a tad off topic) is that I have heard some Americans say they want to take a vacation to "do Europe". As if by going to Paris, Florence and Berlin you've "done Europe". Anecdotal I know, but I've never heard this the other way round.
checkeredknight
Member
The UK has some good parts and also its fair share of shit parts. Some lovely peaceful villages and for the most part, people are friendly and curious around the City where I live. On the other hand, don't expect to use our rail services without gaining an enormous headache (especially if you're travelling with Northern Rail.) I like it here, but I know many who don't. Eh, it seems a 50/50 thing. No better or worse than any of these other places.
Arjen
Member
Going to California is a pretty popular vacation
If you were to measure enlightenment by who is most hated by those least enlightened then the US would win easily, that whole war on Islam agenda and the marriage with Israel is kinda cheating though. Enlightenment is such an ambiguous term but if you need to stick it on 2 very different groups of people in a broad stroke then I would go with the one that has the least exploitative society, that goes from economic opportunity to social equality but also media and education, I think that one goes to EU then but only because corporations haven't managed to gain more control on governments yet.
Sorry buddy, it's a contest that requires a minimum of 100 million citizens to qualify. Between Nations you still lose big time versus Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Denmark.
Sorry buddy, it's a contest that requires a minimum of 100 million citizens to qualify. Between Nations you still lose big time versus Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Denmark.
ReadingRambo
Member
I mean we were founded on the ideas of The Enlightenment. We dragged Europe kicking and screaming (ok not literally but you followed suit) along with us. Don't let a few right wing crazies change history.
Rubbish King
The gift that keeps on giving
Really? For people outside the US?
QuicheFontaine
Member
What? I know people go to America on holiday. I'm saying I've never heard the sentiment from a European that visiting a couple of places in America constitutes seeing all the place has to offer.
Arjen
Member
Yeah, I know tons of people who did, Las Vegas, San Francisco, Los Angeles.
...If we're talking about the prosperous Euro nations -- Absolutely( though I am loathe to say it. It's just as annoying to read/hear "racism is dead!" from Europeans, for starters). Less inequality across socio-economic classes, more transparent governments and more educated populations compared to the US make it an easy win.
Europe still kinda sucks, though. Humanity has a long way to go.
Europe still kinda sucks, though. Humanity has a long way to go.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Fun fact
Haiti's murder and overall crime rate is lower than Dominican Republic's, Puerto Rico's, Jamaica's, Trini n Tobago's by alot.
and Haiti's police force(lol what a joke) numbers around 10,000.
Haitian pop = 10 million
Our biggest problem in the US is that our government for the most part is under corporate control and influence. The American population might even poll in majority of being in favor of something but as soon as someone trys to initiate change the big $ comes into play.
We are in general terrible at eating up whatever marketing we are fed. We also have this very strong belief that we are all just temporarily embarrased millionaires and that are day is coming and when it does we don't want to be burdened with undo taxes etc on our imaginary money.
We are in general terrible at eating up whatever marketing we are fed. We also have this very strong belief that we are all just temporarily embarrased millionaires and that are day is coming and when it does we don't want to be burdened with undo taxes etc on our imaginary money.
I always hear Americans talking about their freedom. What is "freedom" for you exactly and how does the US give it to you? How is Europe "less free" than the US?
I'm hoping it does not have anything to do with things like gun rights or similar, given that they're rather superficial and unimportant on a normal, regular life.
My opinion: both the US and Europe have their pros and cons, but I have to say I see more cons in the US than in Europe, with the crappy healthcare system you guys have being the biggest problem of all. And that you have to get thousands in debt if you want to get a good university degree. Health and education is a right, not a privilege!
I think the right to defend myself is kind of important.
But for me freedom is more just a concept that I can do what i want as long as i don't hurt someone. I can start a buisness, live an alternative lifestle, etc etc and be given a bit more leeway than in other places in the world. it's isn't perfect, but in america you can make the case for yourself.
And by the way your healthcare/education isn't free. I hate when europeans lie about that that.
Liquid_Bike
Member
I think America would rank a lot better if they had universal healthcare like other industrial countries.
He never said it was free, just equal for everyone regardless of your socioeconomic status. In Canada a bum on the street gets the same healthcare as a CEO.
He never said it was free, just equal for everyone regardless of your socioeconomic status. In Canada a bum on the street gets the same healthcare as a CEO.
QuicheFontaine
Member
In the UK our education and healthcare is free at the point of use. No lie.
Liquid_Bike
Member
That's similar to Canada I've been to the doctor and hospital more time than I can count over the years and I've once seen a dollar amount attached to any of the services I received.
Depends. Schotland has 100% free education for instance. While in Holland, you get your first 5 years of higher education covered and then only if you actually get a degree in that time-frame.
Besides, the point people are making when they say that stands: you won't be ruined by a medical bill in Europe, nor is education an unattainable luxury for most. I know that had I been born in America with the same socio-economic circumstances(ethnic minority, parents with low-income), I would have likely never been able to get into academia and if I somehow had been able to make it, I would have been stuck with a massive debt.
imo, America's biggest problems are actually the lack of transparency and democracy in the system. Things are so hard to change, because you have so little input due to the archaic way the political system is built and the power lobbyists wield.
Only downside is that people visit the ER for everything.
Ehm... all the things you listed, (starting a business, alternative lifestyle, etc,) can be done freely not only in Europe but also in many countries (for example, most of Latin America). Most, if not all (and I'm quite sure all) the things an average American would do on his/her life can be done freely as well in Europe.
Healthcare and education is not free in Europe, nobody says that, as we pay it with our taxes. But everyone has access to it, regardless of their economical status, at least healthcare (education might be a little bit more limited). But to live with good health and dignity (and with dignity I mean not having to pay crazy amounts of money for things like X-Rays, MRI's, or surgeries, elements that are essential for you to live with health and freely) everyone has access.
And on this very same topic we could even add things where you have more freedom in Europe than in the US. How free are you if you're thousands of dollars in debt just because you had an illness or a medical complication, something you're not at fault? Doesn't it limit your "freedom"?
If you do not come from at least a middle class family you're very likely not going to be able to go the university (unless you're very "lucky" and manage to get all those loans you'll have to pay later), you can't continue with your education, to get a degree in what you like/love. Just because of your economical status. I've heard Americans say "well, if you work hard in life, you'll get high etc etc", yep, very true, but it is certainly unfair some people have that route much much easier than others, because their parents or themselves can afford college or the loans for paying college.
Here at least, you won't get thousands in debt for getting ill. You may go to the university even if you have a rather difficult economical situation. And still, you're "free" to choose if you want to go to a state-funded public university, where the fares are low and accesible to most, or if you want to study at a very expensive (American style) private university. But the important thing is that it does not really matter where you choose to study, you CAN do it.
Than me and you just have a different idea of what freedom is. To me i don't consider myself "less diginified" becuase i'm paying for a service I request for like going to school. I like the freedoms america offers me.
Europeans do it differently, great for you.
Devolution
Member
All I know is there are plenty of euro transplants in Portland and the Bay Area that love it there.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
- Status