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[Spring-Loaded]

After reading about the Prey 2/Human Head/Bethesda/ZeniMax situation, I found out how awful Bethesda's publishing side is. If you have any qualms with the thread title, just read though the thread at the link and click on any additional links in it, particularly this open letter by lead game designer from Madia, a developer who worked on the game Echelon (2001) for Bethesda. (That letter was quoted in this post by user Subversus in another thread, linked in the one I linked above.)

Bethesda has gets independent developers to start projects for them. During development, they say the developer isn't meeting undefined milestones/quality standards (that aren't laid out in their contract). Bethesda threatens to cancel production. ZeniMax offers to buy the developer in order to make up for the money lost due to their failing to "meet milestones." ZeniMax is the parent company to Bethesda. This has been going on for a long while, going by Madia's open letter.

All's that to say: Is this well-known? I understand how and why someone might work at a less than reputable company when they just want to get their project funded and finished. I know plenty people simply don't care about the politics behind the releases of their proucts, and this practice might simply be the norm in the industry. Even still, I wonder why the developers who've been extorted into being bought out by Bethesda/ZeniMax would want to work for them in the first place. I imagine there are at least a few of Bethesda's customers who would change their minds about buying from them after hearing about this if they have any concern for the people who make video games (though there's conflict between wanting to support devs owned by bad publishers).

Is this all that big a secret?

 

[Eolz]

It's not a big secret but most people overlook it due to their productions, or conveniently forget about it.

 

[Massa]

If they were smart we would have had Fallout 4 by Obsidian by now and Bethesda could be working on a new IP. Then they'd have three huge IP's in the genre with each game selling 10M+, with a new release every other year.

But they had to save some money on New Vegas royalties. I'm sure that was great for their bottom line.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

I knew Bethesda was bad after the awful QA they gave New Vegas and then refused to pay out Obsidian in full because of their low Metacritic score, which was primarily the fault of issues that should have been solved in QA.

 

[Stimpack]

It's not unknown, but I don't know how many people bother to read up on this stuff or who would care. They've definitely fallen out of favor with me.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Bethesda has gets independent developers to start projects for them. During development, they say the developer isn't meeting undefined milestones/quality standards (that aren't laid out in their contract). Bethesda threatens to cancel production. ZeniMax offers to buy the developer in order to make up for the money lost due to their failing to "meet milestones." ZeniMax is the parent company to Bethesda.

And yet, somehow EA is worse for rushing Dragon Age 2.

 

[hwy_61]

First chick-fil-a, now Bethesda? Why are so many companies who's products I love need to be so shitty?!

It's not fair.

 

[BaronMonstro]

Yeah I remember reading about Bethesda doing this to Arkane Studios.

On one hand, it seems pretty sleazy of Bethesda, on the other hand, we got Dishonored which was my GOTY.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

It's really not a secret, you just have to look a bit to found out how much shitty they are.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

On one hand, it seems pretty sleazy of Bethesda, on the other hand, we got Dishonored which was my GOTY.

All is forgiven as long as there is a game I like.

 

[Springy]

Them Elder Scrolls are pretty sweet, though.

 

[Pikma]

They're garbage and deserve to be called out, but since their shitty practices don't directly affect the consumers people just don't give a shit.

 

[DigiMish]

It's pretty silly to take such a negative stance against the publisher over one specific situation.

The Echelon letter is over 13 years old.

Do you have more recent examples besides Prey 2?

 

[Sendero]

It has been discussed a few times here, and Kotatu has written about it as well.
But it's certainly not something that they are widely "known for".

As long as it keeps publishing hits like TES and new Fallout series, regular press will keep giving them a free pass.

 

[BaronMonstro]

All is forgiven as long as there is a game I like.

I definitely don't support Bethesda's practice, but you do wonder if Dishonored wouldn't have turned out as good if Bethesda didn't have such unrealistically high standards for the developers they're publishing the games of. Not that a good game justifies such a sleazy tactic of course.

It is funny when you consider that Bethesda's own games probably wouldn't meet their unrealistic expectations when you consider how buggy and broken they can be at times.

 

[ashecitism]

Them Elder Scrolls are pretty sweet, though.

Made by Bethesda Game Studios. Bethesda Softworks is the publisher, which this thread is partially about.

 

[wcvince]

First chick-fil-a, now Bethesda? Why are so many companies who's products I love need to be so shitty?!

It's not fair.

Seriously, this. It really sucks.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Yeah I remember reading about Bethesda doing this to Arkane Studios.

On one hand, it seems pretty sleazy of Bethesda, on the other hand, we got Dishonored which was my GOTY.

Yeah, and with those sleazy tactics they put enough pressure to Arkane Studios in a way that Arkane Studios as it was before (an independent developer) is no more. Now it's part of Bethesda.

And add the lawsuit to John Carmack, they are trying to get money from his VR forays.

 

[draetenth]

I knew Bethesda was bad after the awful QA they gave New Vegas and then refused to pay out Obsidian in full because of their low Metacritic score, which was primarily the fault of issues that should have been solved in QA.

Yeah, that's the same time I started thinking about Bethesda. It was also because they gave Obsidian a really short time to develop New Vegas. I've always wondered if Bethesda was trying to acquire Obsidian the same way they some of their other developers.

They're garbage and deserve to called out, but since their shitty practices don't directly affect the consumers people don't give a shit.

Sadly, this is true especially after Skyrim's huge success. It's even worse because I still like the Fallout series and would still buy the games.

 

[Mr. Tibbs]

Re-posting what happened to Prey 2 from an earlier thread.

Long story short: Milestone abuse and a failed hostile acquisition.

Basically it goes like this:

Bethesda disputes Milestones - reasonable or not - and withholds payment while Zenimax, the parent company, offers to loan money while the issues are being sorted, saying it's just an administrative issue that is bound to get resolved, then after several milestones aren't met and the money "lent" becomes too important, it offers to buy the company as a solution.

The companies have done it several times already. Given their documented history, there is no reason to grant them the benefit of the doubt: this is a planned, predatory practice.

If you're giving me money and it looks like I'm failing, and you don't want to give me more money because you don't trust that I can complete the project, why are you trying to buy out my studio?

That's the six million dollar question: if this really was a case of Human Head dropping the ball, ******* up development and ruining Bethesda's investment, why did Bethesda want to pour more money into acquiring the entire studio/team in addition to the product?

The fact is, Human Head were doing such a good job that Bethesda pretended they were doing a shit job so they could gain the financial leverage needed to acquire the entire studio.

I'll try to explain it as best I can. I'm sure there's a proper phrase for it in consumer advocacy environments, but I just call it milestone abuse.

In a traditional publisher-developer relationship in the video games industry, the publisher usually pays the developer through a number of milestones. Here's an example.

> Milestone 1: Exit pre-production with a final design plan
> Milestone 2: Finish X number of levels and audio/graphical assets
> Milestone 3: Have a "vertical slice" demo (showing all core features)
> Milestone 4: Establish a pipeline with the quality assurance testers

Stuff like that.

This system is technically great since it keeps the developer accountable. They only get paid if they keep working and showing progress. I WISH they'd have something like this for Kickstarter.

The problem with milestone abuse is when the milestone criteria isn't shown to the public (due to corporate confidentiality and all of that). Since it's kept behind closed doors, people who actually give a shit can't make sure that the publisher isn't trying to exploit the developer by exploiting loopholes in the contract.

Since most studios can only afford to work on one major project at a time, they need the milestone payments in order to stay afloat. However, if the publisher wants to intentionally bankrupt the developer so that they can purchase their IPs and employee contracts (hostile acquisition), then the publisher just has to ride it out and see who runs out of money first. Since the publisher is almost always wealthier, they just have to play a waiting game and arbitrarily fail the milestones.

> Yeah, you set up a quality assurance pipeline but we don't think it's good enough. No, we don't have to explain why. You think anyone out there's going to look through this contract?

> Yeah, you exited pre-production, but we still count those 10 meetings you did afterwards as part of it. Actually, you deserve less money than we gave. Maybe you should be happy that we're just withholding payment and not suing you.

> You call this a vertical slice? We didn't finish focus testing yet! We still might want more features! Oh, we didn't tell you? That's not our problem.

Once the developer gets desperate enough and they almost reach bankruptcy, the publisher is in a good position to force a buy-out. Since whether or not they did anything legally wrong is really, really complicated and the developer no longer has any money to hire a legal team that can rival a publisher's, most of these end in hostile acquisitions.

The bigger problem here is that you could have very easily achieved the same result by suing Human Head for "not fulfilling the terms of their contract" (and not have to pay a single cent more), but Bethesda never pursued that because they'd have no legal case. If this was presented before an external court that doesn't care about video games, they'd see that Human Head adequately fulfilled all the portions of their contract.

A lawsuit would have been literally cheaper if that was the case. If Bethesda didn't have a documented history of abusing companies in such a way, its people would be granted the same latitude.

BETHESDA OWNS PREY. Human Head fails to complete the project, you take what they've got so far and dump it in some other studio's lap to finish.

The reason you break contract with Human Head is you feel like you're throwing good money after bad; if I pay you, you still won't finish this project, so I'll stop paying you and pay someone else to finish it instead.

Pete Hines "quality" story would ring true if:

a) Bethesda/Zenimax didn't try to acquire the company at the same time it was denying it payment.

b) Bethesda/Zenimax didn't have a recorded history of acquiring companies that way.

With those two elements, that behavior from the company becomes terribly suspicious at best.

 

[Mr. Tibbs]

It's pretty silly to take such a negative stance against the publisher over one specific situation.

The Echelon letter is over 13 years old.

Do you have more recent examples besides Prey 2?

http://www.polygon.com/features/2014/5/2/5613114/wasteland-2-fallout-brian-fargo

As head of development house InXile, he was making a game under contract for the publisher. "They wanted us to hit a certain date," he says. "But they had made a bunch of changes. It wasn't possible. They sent a guy down to our office while I was out of town promoting the game. The guy comes into the office and tells my people, 'Hey we need to move the date. If you don't figure it out, we'll shut this company down.' He came in and threatened to fire all my employees while I was away."

Splash Damage had to fund the last months of Brink's development out of their own pocket as Bethesda was rejecting milestones.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

It's pretty silly to take such a negative stance against the publisher over one specific situation.

The Echelon letter is over 13 years old.

Do you have more recent examples besides Prey 2?

How is one example not enough? Was this all just a misunderstanding and not a painfully obvious instance of a hostile takeover? Is the irony imagined when Bethesda cites quality milestones as the reason for canceling a game after Skyrim PS3 was released?

I'll let someone else lay it out for you further, or let you consider that Bethesda Softworks and ZeniMax have acquired developers since Echelon (Arkane, Battlecry, id, MachineGames) and there's nothing to suggest they didn't pull the same shit with them.
Give me a reason why even just this one example with Human Head isn't enough reason to view Bethesda in a negative light, or why there's seemingly a statue of limitations on shitty takeover tactics. Then I might consider responding to you your question.

 

[Springy]

Made by Bethesda Game Studios. Bethesda Softworks is the publisher, which this thread is partially about.

Right. But I thought they own, and always have owned, the studio.

 

[Akuun]

Holy shit. I didn't know this about Bethesda. Fuck these guys if these things are true.

 

[Souless Squirrel]

Ya bethesda has been pretty shitty for a long time. They just seem to know how to hide it under the rug better than others.

 

[ultratruman]

Skyrim was great

 

[digita1alchemy]

Hadn't heard of this before. This makes me wonder about Mikami and Tango Gameworks

 

[Valnen]

Them Elder Scrolls are pretty sweet, though.

Eh, not really. There are much better open world RPG's these days. At least Dragon Age has actual combat in it.

 

[DigiMish]

How is one example not enough? Was this all just a misunderstanding and not a painfully obvious instance of a hostile takeover? Is the irony imagined when Bethesda cites quality milestones as the reason for canceling a game after Skyrim PS3 was released?

I'll let someone else lay it out for you further, or let you consider that Bethesda Softworks and ZeniMax have acquired developers since Echelon (Arkane, Battlecry, id, MachineGames) and there's nothing to suggest they didn't pull the same shit with them.
Give me a reason why even just this one example with Human Head isn't enough reason to view Bethesda in a negative light, or why there's seemingly a statue of limitations on shitty takeover tactics. Then I might consider responding to you your question.

No need for the hostile attitude.

One example is not enough because this is a big publisher, with tons of people overlooking various products... The situation may be shitty, but like I said condemning the publisher over 1 incident is not really justified in my opinion.

With that said, if it's true (including the fallout example), it's pretty outrageous behavior on their part.

 

[Owari]

Also their games are awful and have horrible graphics.

Oops

 

[Sanke__]

Re-posting what happened to Prey 2 from an earlier thread.

Doesnt sound like bethesda is doing anything wrong

Just sounds like "milestone payments" are the dumbest fucking thing ever conceived

Independent game studios need to actually hire business/law people if they are really worried about this kind of shit

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Doesnt sound like bethesda is doing anything wrong

Just sounds like "milestone payments" are the dumbest fucking thing ever conceived

Independent game studios need to actually hire business/law people if they are really worried about this kind of shit

If by that you mean they haven't done anything outwardly illegal, probably.

And can you really say they've done nothing wrong, then follow that up with "you better lawyer up if you want to work with them tho"?

 

[Rekki-Maru]

I knew Bethesda was bad after the awful QA they gave New Vegas and then refused to pay out Obsidian in full because of their low Metacritic score, which was primarily the fault of issues that should have been solved in QA.

Bethesda, fucked up right there. Obsidian, deserved the bonus.

 

[Banana Aeon]

Bethesda's evil isn't unknown. It's just ignored, because the general public doesn't care about evil practices, unless it's directly affecting them, and it is obvious.

 

[Nander]

It's purely speculation, but reading this I wonder if the founder of Machinegames leaving the company right before Zenimax's acquisition might have been due to similar reasons...

 

[Solid Samus]

Bethesda/Zenimax is incredibly manipulative and eats smaller devs like vultures. Scratch that, more like fucking vampires. I've made sure to mention this in half the Beth threads I participate in. They're real pieces of shit.

 

[John Kowalski]

it is a great shame that such a great developer like bethesda would have their name soiled by such horrid publishing practices

 

[Solid Samus]

Re-posting what happened to Prey 2 from an earlier thread.

They've tried and done this shit more than once.

 

[NoPiece]

The sketchy behavior at Zenimax/Bethesda goes back to its founding.

ZeniMax was founded in 1999 by Bethesda Softworks founder Chris Weaver and Robert A. Altman. Weaver's vision was to use Bethesda Softworks as the basis to create a hybrid media company to create cross-media properties such as PC and console games; interactive TV; mobile; web and new media. Weaver invited Altman to help him run the new company, but potential investors were wary of Altman because of his previous involvement in the BCCI scandal as well as making new investments in the field. As part of the deal, Weaver, sole owner of Bethesda Softworks, contributed his stock so that the new shell company (Zenimax) would be able to obtain funding. Robert Altman installed himself as CEO and convinced Weaver to take the position of CTO — a move that ultimately resulted in Weaver being forced out by Altman in 2002. Although still the largest shareholder, Weaver no longer has any day-to-day responsibilities with Zenimax. Altman is still CEO.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/ZeniMax_Media

 

[drotahorror]

It's purely speculation, but reading this I wonder if the founder of Machinegames leaving the company right before Zenimax's acquisition might have been due to similar reasons...

Wouldn't doubt it. Like another person said, I wonder what's up with Tango Gameworks?

Ah - Tango Gameworks - a division of ZeniMax Asia K.K.

So already bought out.

 

[Remachinate]

Should consumers even care? We missed out on the original incarnation of Prey 2 because of these tactics, but can we say whether the quality of their published games (such as Dishonored) as a whole has been higher as a result?

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Awful, awful company. Scumbags.

 

[Regret Upon Approval]

Was there something going on with the Dishonoured folks too?

 

[Almighty]

Well I knew Bethesda/Zenimax was scummy, but I didn't know they were that scummy. I guess I will forever be grateful to Sega as Relic would of wound up with them if it wasn't for Sega.

 

[Souless Squirrel]

Should consumers even care? We missed out on the original incarnation of Prey 2 because of these tactics, but can we say whether the quality of their published games (such as Dishonored) has been higher as a result?

They were the ones who came in and told splash damage to change the crap out of brink while the most of the heads of splash damage were showing off the game. Remember how the singleplayer had voice acting, cutscenes and seemed to be different from the multiplayer instead of a carbon copy.

 

[nikos]

Glad I don't like anything they put out. This is pretty despicable.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'd say it's pretty well known for the most of the part.

It's just that when you're a studio like Bethesda that takes around half a decade in putting out the next commercially hyped "masterpiece", the general consensus is probably a lot more forgiving about scummy heavy handedness unfortunately.

No matter who's the nice guy, they're the ones putting out the products people will go nuts for and give dozens of GOTY awards to. Even though Obsidian's crippled New Vegas was miles better than anything Bethesda's ever put out and the way the publishers ended up treating that game is a straight up fucking travesty.

 

[Sanke__]

If by that you mean they haven't done anything outwardly illegal, probably.

And can you really say they've done nothing wrong, then follow that up with "you better lawyer up if you want to work with them tho"?

It is pretty common to have a lawyer go over a business contract and seems like it would be mandatory for something as vague as milestones in video game development

and to your first point its probably in the same ballpark as a corporation avoiding taxes

 

[Mr. Tibbs]

It is pretty common to have a lawyer go over a business contract and seems like it would be mandatory for something as vague as milestones in video game development

What makes you think they didn't? Human Head's had some of the best business devs in the industry, Tim Gerritsen (Irrational), Rob Martyn (Zynga), at the studio. They've managed to keep the lights on for 18 years. That doesn't insulate them from a publisher attempting a hostile acquisition.

 

[Eusis]

And yet, somehow EA is worse for rushing Dragon Age 2.

I think it's the pit of corpses EA's built up that cause people to hate them more, even though I would imagine that if Bethesda built themselves bigger they WOULD be more reviled. But then EA kinda stole from them in the first place, so that's really just a clusterfuck.

I think when it comes to Bethesda the developer, honestly it's just kind of a fluke. They weren't even giving the idea of letting their developers actually attempt an RPG the time of day initially and just wanted to focus on sports stuff as I recall. Ideally they'd be divorced from the ZeniMax bullshit and allow them to wither and die, even if they're not super amazing developers I DO think they're good enough to warrant keeping around, and I guess that's part of why people often overlook this stuff. Also because you could likely find similar beefs to have with most other companies period, though Bethesda has been looking awfully... special there.