Support NeoGAF

[Missing.No]

Or does he?

I dont get it.

 

[KojiKnight]

You might find this article about gender-neutral pronouns to be helpful. Its basis is historical context and grammatical use.

Read it previously, it's an interesting read but English (as all languages) is a shifting beast. What was gramattically correct previously may not be currently. Even more importantly even if something is "correct" that doesn't necessarily make it "right".

For example, "ain't" isn't a word... or I should say it wasn't a word for a very long time. It's now (like it or hate it) part of the English lexicon... funny enough I've heard it far less over the years since it became part of the language proper.

I'm not saying such words couldn't be used the way the article describes again, but as it stands it's not very natural. In the state the language currently is, it'd likely be easier to come up with a more proper '3rd option' to him/her.

But I'm still an outsider looking in on the community, so my thoughts and opinions carry little weight on such things

I dont get it.

He's saying Kirby doesn't actually live in a dream world, he lives in a different time (either during a previous or future ice age).

 

[Calamari41]

I dont get it.

It's a frozen-over Urf

 

[Futureman]

I think probably neither, but whatever Kirby is, it more closely resembles a human male so that's how they sometimes refer to Kirby in Earthling languages.

 

[Missing.No]

Read it previously, it's an interesting read but English (as all languages) is a shifting beast. What was gramattically correct previously may not be currently. Even more importantly even if something is "correct" that doesn't necessarily make it "right".

Latin is not "a shifting beast"

 

[GenericBadGuy]

I've always thought of Kirby as just "Kirby". I don't think I've ever used a pronoun. If anything I've only ever used "a Kirby" if there's more than one. I can't think of anything Kirby has done as gender defining.

 

[KojiKnight]

Latin is not "a shifting beast"

No, but it's a dead language

 

[Drazgul]

This is easily settled; just check if there's more female or male Kirby rule 34 out there.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

Read it previously, it's an interesting read but English (as all languages) is a shifting beast. What was gramattically correct previously may not be currently. Even more importantly even if something is "correct" that doesn't necessarily make it "right".

For example, "ain't" isn't a word... or I should say it wasn't a word for a very long time. It's now (like it or hate it) part of the English lexicon... funny enough I've heard it far less over the years since it became part of the language proper.

I'm not saying such words couldn't be used the way the article describes again, but as it stands it's not very natural. In the state the language currently is, it'd likely be easier to come up with a more proper '3rd option' to him/her.

But I'm still an outside looking in on the community, so my thoughts and opinions carry little weight on such things

I'll just note that I have a lot of beloved people in my life who use the singular 'they', and while I wasn't accustomed to using it prior to knowing these folk, it's become incredibly natural to both say and hear in all contexts and spheres. Its usage is a lot more common than this thread would indicate. It's preeeetty likely that the beast of an English language is indeed shifting in this direction.

 

[Madness]

I thought of it less a personal attack and more an accurate analogy of the situation. If your perspective is that you're only curious about Kirby in your region, then that's fine for you--but it doesn't have any bearing on the larger discussion, from what I can tell. I mean, if you just wanna know whether Nintendo calls Kirby male in regions they localize to that lack socially-common gender-neutral pronouns, well, just check your region's manual and be satisfied, right? Also, discussing your dogwhistling of 'personal attack' only serves to derail the discussion, so consider this the full extent of my addressing it.

What am I trying to argue here? That Kirby has a non-binary gender identity, and it's absolutely clear and supported with evidence if you examine the original Kirby released before they were processed for other cultures. I think that's a fair view to hold.

Eh, I disagree. You know exactly what it is you were trying to achieve by calling me a child who was whining and bringing up something completely unrelated. Right away, it discredits me as a person who holds an equal and valid view, even if it's one you don't agree with, and it also tries to strengthen your argument because the unrelated information has nothing to do with me or what I said, but works to your advantage. These kinds of tactics are used all the time in discussions and debates, especially on the internet.

I don't know how Kirby was referred to in Japan. I don't live there. All I can go by is what Nintendo released in North America. I know, because I bought Kirby's Dream Land back in 92 for the game boy and they always referred to Kirby as he. Despite what you think, the Kirby games have always had some form of gendered representation. Look at enemies like Fololo and Falala to try and distinguish between the two. Additionally Nintendo took it one step further in newer games with characters like ChuChu and Ribbon to try and show how "females" might be, even if they use tropes like bows etc.

My point is, you choose to believe an arbitrary and extreme definition. Kirby is non-binary, guys can be wearing bows etc. And that's all true. I'm going by what is the simple explanation and one the creators probably intended. Kirby is a boy, or he's just Kirby. I mean if that's what they refer to Kirby as in Canada, US, EU releases, what's the big issue here? It's something they agree with then no? Maybe they'll clarify this in the future, maybe they won't.

 

[braves01]

I've always thought Kirby was a cis-male power bottom. Maybe it's the angry eyes he gets in NA.

 

[Missing.No]

No, but it's a dead language

But it's the official language in some places, like vatican, i think (i'm not sure)

 

[Coffee Dog]

Does sakurai refer to kirby with gender neutral pronouns? Or does he call him "he"?

 

[Berordn]

He's saying Kirby doesn't actually live in a dream world, he lives in a different time (either during a previous or future ice age).

It'd be the future, since Kirby explores a shopping mall infested with monsters, enters a laboratory with performing experiments on strange and creepy creatures and ends off with a giant robot fight in the middle of a city.

Kirby's universe is fucked up.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

Eh, I disagree. You know exactly what it is you were trying to achieve by calling me a child who was whining and bringing up something completely unrelated. Right away, it discredits me as a person who holds an equal and valid view, even if it's one you don't agree with, and it also tries to strengthen your argument because the unrelated information has nothing to do with me or what I said, but works to your advantage. These kinds of tactics are used all the time in discussions and debates, especially on the internet.

I don't know how Kirby was referred to in Japan. I don't live there. All I can go by is what Nintendo released in North America. I know, because I bought Kirby's Dream Land back in 92 for the game boy and they always referred to Kirby as he. Despite what you think, the Kirby games have always had some form of gendered representation. Look at enemies like Fololo and Falala to try and distinguish between the two. Additionally Nintendo took it one step further in newer games with characters like ChuChu and Ribbon to try and show how "females" might be, even if they use tropes like bows etc.

My point is, you choose to believe an arbitrary and extreme definition. Kirby is non-binary, guys can be wearing bows etc. And that's all true. I'm going by what is the simple explanation and one the creators probably intended. Kirby is a boy, or he's just Kirby. I mean if that's what they refer to Kirby as in Canada, US, EU releases, what's the big issue here? It's something they agree with then no? Maybe they'll clarify this in the future, maybe they won't.

Ugh, you just insist on an argument. The analogy was not unrelated--it's the exact same situation. In both cases, people are discussing the nature of a character's identity, and one person insists on using an edited, localized edition as the basis of their argument, rejecting the idea that the change was made to reflect the attitudes of the country rather than the identity of the character. Your argument completely disregards the fact that Kirby was created with gender-neutral pronouns that have been used consistently in Kirby's country of origin. Where can you go from there, really?

 

[KojiKnight]

I'll just note that I have a lot of beloved people in my life who use the singular 'they', and while I wasn't accustomed to using it prior to knowing these folk, it's become incredibly natural to both say and hear in all contexts and spheres. Its usage is a lot more common than this thread would indicate. It's preeeetty likely that the beast of an English language is indeed shifting in this direction.

Indeed, while I have a lot of gay/lesbian friends, I can't say I have any trans personally though I know of several through work. I always refer to them as their self identified body so it never seems to come up if they'd prefer if I referred to them in a gender neutral way.

Though undoubtedly if I met someone who wished to be referred to in that way I would... It would be hard to get over ("they" sounds very impersonal to me). Limited experience either way which is why I don't try to speak too much on the subject... but sometimes I just enjoy having these kinds of discussions

 

[Anim]

You might find this article about gender-neutral pronouns to be helpful. Its basis is historical context and grammatical use.

I'm sorry to barge into this discussion like that, but I glanced over that article and while the information it contains seems to be correct, the way it's presented is very annoying and - as you might have said - childish. Here is another blog post (referenced by this Oxford Dictionary page), which in my opinion better explains that issue.

 

[Village]

He's a martian mahunter and a skrull. Thats the important part,

 

[Erin S Kittens]

I'm sorry to barge into this discussion like that, but I glanced over that article and while the information it contains seems to be correct, the way it's presented is very annoying and - as you might have said - childish. Here is another blog post (referenced by this Oxford Dictionary page), which in my opinion betters explains that issue.

Thank you for that.

 

[Deleted member 74300]

Kirby is like a Hindu God or something. A perfect being transcending gender.

 

[KojiKnight]

Kirby is like a Hindu God or something. A perfect being transcending gender.

I like this answer best.

 

[Madness]

Ugh, you just insist on an argument. The analogy was not unrelated--it's the exact same situation. In both cases, people are discussing the nature of a character's identity, and one person insists on using an edited, localized edition as the basis of their argument, rejecting the idea that the change was made to reflect the attitudes of the country rather than the identity of the character. Your argument completely disregards the fact that Kirby was created with gender-neutral pronouns that have been used consistently in Kirby's country of origin. Where can you go from there, really?

This is going to be my last post here. You wilfully chose to again ignore my implication that you insulted me. Fine. Yes the analogy is unrelated and it's use in the discussion works only to your advantage. One, I don't know about Sailor Moon, I don't watch it. Two, I don't know what they did with the localization, or who 4Kids is. So the implication the argument is the same is fucking ridiculous, because it's not part of my argument. It's your own knowledge on a different topic that you are trying to shoehorn in here to try and support your viewpoint.

Japan is a different country. What they envisioned Kirby as may as well have been gender binary. He is a creature, a beast, a puffball. And that's fine. But when they brought the games abroad, they localized Kirby as he, and gender representation is visible in all the games. Whether it's pronouns like King for Dedede, bows for characters like ChuChu and Ribbon, or blue for Fololo and pink for Falala.

For all we know, in Japan, what they choose to believe for Kirby is that the puffball is a guy. But we're on NeoGAF, a primarily North American/European site, the majority of us, probably played the Kirby games, had the boxes and manuals with gendered pronouns and descriptions. So why the anger or dismissal of what we say? I'm also curious, if Japan had envisioned Kirby as a boy from the start and had gendered pronouns, but for North America and Europe, they instead chose a genderless approach, whether your argument would be the same, that it's what it was released in Japan is what counts. I think the past 22 years, globally Kirby will be referred to as Kirby or he. I wouldn't be surprised if in Japan, they think the same now as well, or whether they even care enough to clarify.

 

[Anim]

Thank you for that.

No problem.

 

[Rhysser]

You sound like a child whining about people discussing the LGBT themes in Sailor Moon, insisting that your 4Kids adaptation, with all its heavy alterations, is perhaps the real canon. Come on, now. This is a topic about Kirby's gender identity, and there's a wealth of discussion to be had here. What use is there ignoring the context of Kirby's portrayal in the original, pre-localized works?

So essentially you're calling people children for not subscribing to your highly speculative interpretations. What exactly does this contribute? Also, Nintendo recently claimed they make Kirby look angry in the US because US males like him better that way rather than cute.

I'm pretty sure US males only like angry eyes on other males though, as opposed to females who they probably do prefer to be cute. So at a very minimum Nintendo both acknowledges Kirby's perception as a male and also actively portrays him in a way consistent with that perception in the US. A wealth of evidence confirms that at least the US Kirby is male. As far as the Japanese Kirby you only seem to allude to speculations which you try to state as concrete facts. I'd be interested in seeing something explicit on his Japanese gender or lackthereof, especially after your needlessly aggressive fiating about this topic. Please share with us westerners.

 

[GamingIsDead]

You sound like a child whining about people discussing the LGBT themes in Sailor Moon, insisting that your 4Kids adaptation, with all its heavy alterations, is perhaps the real canon. Come on, now. This is a topic about Kirby's gender identity, and there's a wealth of discussion to be had here.

Not really. Only reason kirby is made unisex was to sell more copies to both boys and girls with out excluding a demographic. Anything more and you're just trying way to hard.

 

[todd360]

Gender is determined by genitalia, which Kirby lacks. I believe he is simply referred to as male because of his nature and behavior. The he/she applies here the same way people address cars and boats as "she," typically.

Kirby is male, if only to avoid calling him "it," which sounds somewhat insensitive.

Sex is determined by genitalia. I think my sociology class said something about a persons gender being whatever they associated with more. Does kirby feel like a male? If so he is male lol.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

So essentially you're calling people children for not subscribing to your highly speculative interpretations. What exactly does this contribute? Also, Nintendo recently claimed they make Kirby look angry in the US because US males like him better that way rather than cute.

I'm pretty sure US males only like angry eyes on other males though, as opposed to females who they probably do prefer to be cute. So at a very minimum Nintendo both acknowledges Kirby's perception as a male and also actively portrays him in a way consistent with that perception in the US. A wealth of evidence confirms that at least the US Kirby is male. As far as the Japanese Kirby you only seem to allude to speculations which you try to state as concrete facts. I'd be interested in seeing something explicit on his Japanese gender or lackthereof, especially after your needlessly aggressive fiating about this topic. Please share with us westerners.

Yes, they made Kirby male in the US. They also made Vivian cis female for English-speaking territories, and Birdo has been given a couple of inconsistent translations. This doesn't mean Kirby can be called 'definitely male' based on how they choose to localize it for one reason. Now, if this discussion is "Is Kirby definitely male in the United States", this discussion would be very different. But, the US isn't the world, and the US' gender binary isn't reflective of the reality of many, many individuals in the US and across the world. So, if Kirby is gender-neutral in his original works, that merits discussion, doesn't it? GAF is an international forum, and I understand that this form isn't US-centric in its discussions.

I don't speak Japanese (nor do I have any particular pedestal reserved for that country or any other), but every discussion I've seen on the subject explicitly states that Kirby doesn't have a gendered pronoun in Japan, and never has. I'll look into it more when I get to work this evening and find explicit references--I need to get concrete sources for my paper, anyway.

Sex is determined by genitalia. I think my sociology class said something about a persons gender being whatever they associated with more. Does kirby feel like a male? If so he is male lol.

Good luck determining my sex ;P Our understandings of these issues are rapidly shifting away from a binary-centric perspective as evidence comes in that is suggestive of a continuum/spectrum for even physical sex.

 

[WarpathDC]

Kirby

Spoiler

has a massive Cock under that all that pink blobery

It also is his sword in Smash Bros

 

[Madness]

Also, just an FYI, Kirby is gendered he in not only the US, but Canada and Europe as well. Just look at the back of the box for the original Kirby's Dreamland ie. US, Canada, France etc.

 

[Lindbergh]

Japanese Wikipedia snippet

性別

説明書では「彼」と呼ばれており、公式サイトでの一人称は「ぼく」[8]。また、英語版のテキストでもカービィの代名詞は男性形の『he』になっており、性別は男だと思われる。

My attempt:

Gender

In instruction manuals, Kirby is referred to as "kare" ("he"); in the official (Kirby 64) site, he uses "boku" ("male I") in the first person. Also, in English printed media, with the masculine "he" being selected for Kirby's pronoun, Kirby's gender is considered to be male.

 

[Sayter]

Kirby is a little pink ball of pookie. ^.^

 

[Tawpgun]

I always wondered myself, same with Ash's pikachu, but who cares honestly. Could be genderless for all we know, but official nintendo games and other sources make it very clear its a he, so kirby is a male.

Thats that I suppose. Dunno how anyone can refute it

 

[Teknoman]

I always wondered myself, same with Ash's pikachu, but who cares honestly. Could be genderless for all we know, but official nintendo games and other sources make it very clear its a he, so kirby is a male.

Thats that I suppose. Dunno how anyone can refute it

Well with Ash's Pikachu, thats easy. Its a boy. Female Pikachus have a kinda wedge shaped tail instead of the bolt shape.

EDIT: Lindbergh's post should settle it.

 

[Rhysser]

Yes, they made Kirby male in the US. They also made Vivian cis female for English-speaking territories, and Birdo has been given a couple of inconsistent translations. This doesn't mean Kirby can be called 'definitely male' based on how they choose to localize it for one reason. Now, if this discussion is "Is Kirby definitely male in the United States", this discussion would be very different. But, the US isn't the world, and the US' gender binary isn't reflective of the reality of many, many individuals in the US and across the world. So, if Kirby is gender-neutral in his original works, that merits discussion, doesn't it? GAF is an international forum, and I understand that this form isn't US-centric in its discussions.

I don't speak Japanese (nor do I have any particular pedestal reserved for that country or any other), but every discussion I've seen on the subject explicitly states that Kirby doesn't have a gendered pronoun in Japan, and never has. I'll look into it more when I get to work this evening and find explicit references--I need to get concrete sources for my paper, anyway.

You again miss the point with these canned arguments about US centricity. Please consider what is being stated more fully and the purpose it serves before going on tangents about US centricity. The point is not that the US is the world, the point is we know for a fact he's male in western countries, and we don't actually know what he is in Japan, as not having a pronoun could just mean they don't want to reveal a gender that does exist for one reason or another, as opposed to assuming he must therefore not have one (though see post above by Lindbergh, apparently even that claim you mentioned is not totally correct). So all existing evidence so far either explicitly states he's male or just doesn't state what he is (which means he could still very well be male), while so far only your opinion suggests otherwise. But I guess I'll see what you come up with when you gather your paper sources.

 

[zeopower6]

Japanese Wikipedia snippet



My attempt:

"性別は不明"

There was also this in the section above.

 

[maxcriden]

(Below, the most ridiculous post I've ever written. Enjoy.)

FWIW, I think Kirby seems to identify with a gendered traditionally male identity but as one of only two members of his species that we've explicitly met, I suspect he's no more "male" than any other alien. I don't think denizens of Dream Land necessarily need to reproduce. There's never been any evidence that "death" in the traditional sense exists in Kirby's world. His vanquished enemies always return in one form or another. "Death" is a fluid concept on Pop Star. In a game like Mass Attack, when one of the Kirbys dies, you can literally pull him back from a ghost-like form into reality. I think this is all connected with the various representations of death that Kirby fights, like Necrodeous and other nightmarish foes. These are not merely enemies but the deathly eternal beings of Kirbys world, similar to Hades in Kid Icarus. They serve as arbiters of destruction and entropy. Kirby is the opposite side of the same coin. Everything he sucks up is only gone temporarily. His nemeses seek to eradicate the world as they know it forever, usually remaking it in their own image--such as Drawcia, who seeks to recreate reality in an artsier form. So if Kirby can't die, he just "is"--and as such, reproduction is unnecessary for those on Pop Star, a planet where death is an antiquated concept. Perhaps it once existed on the Shiver Star back when it was known as earth....

Or does he?

 

[Erin S Kittens]

Japanese Wikipedia snippet



My attempt:

So, I went ahead and gave it a look, and went to the page they sourced, as well. Neither 僕 boku nor 彼 kare actually appear in the referenced page. A machine translation of Kirby's paragraph reveals no masculine pronouns, either. So, I'm not exactly ready to say that Wikipedia entry is correct, since the source it links to doesn't immediately appear to use the words the wiki page claims it uses. I'm open to being wrong about this, of course.

You again miss the point with these canned arguments about US centricity. Please consider what is being stated more fully and the purpose it serves before going on tangents about US centricity. The point is not that the US is the world, the point is we know for a fact he's male in western countries, and we don't actually know what he is in Japan, as not having a pronoun could just mean they don't want to reveal a gender that does exist for one reason or another, as opposed to assuming he must therefore not have one (though see post above by Lindbergh, apparently even that claim you mentioned is not totally correct). So all existing evidence so far either explicitly states he's male or just doesn't state what he is (which means he could still very well be male), while so far only your opinion suggests otherwise. But I guess I'll see what you come up with when you gather your paper sources.

Really, what this is about is that there is a character that clearly breaks the mold of Western gender binary, and there are actual human beings who break that same mold, and who are we to deny them a positive role model to identify with? I mean, almost every gaming character is male or female, so when one approaches without a distinct binary identity, we shouldn't be in such a rush to assign them one.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Staying with the OP's question and basing this off of whatever the hell is going on with this thread, no, Kirby is not definitely male

Metroid is male for sure though.

Spoiler

 

[AJSousuke]

Can I be the first to ask... why does it matter?

to debate

Spoiler

if Nintendo is sexist

 

[InsaneLuchador]

I always assumed male but my younger sister calls Kirby a "her" when she plays Smash Bros. Maybe that's the way Nintendo wanted it.

 

[Missing.No]

I always assumed male but my younger sister calls Kirby a "her" when she plays Smash Bros. Maybe that's the way Nintendo wanted it.

Yup
"The most important thing is imagination" - Nintendo

 

[Teknoman]

(Below, the most ridiculous post I've ever written. Enjoy.)

FWIW, I think Kirby seems to identify with a gendered traditionally male identity but as one of only two members of his species that we've explicitly met, I suspect he's no more "male" than any other alien. I don't think denizens of Dream Land necessarily need to reproduce. There's never been any evidence that "death" in the traditional sense exists in Kirby's world. His vanquished enemies always return in one form or another. "Death" is a fluid concept on Pop Star. In a game like Mass Attack, when one of the Kirbys dies, you can literally pull him back from a ghost-like form into reality. I think this is all connected with the various representations of death that Kirby fights, like Necrodeous and other nightmarish foes. These are not merely enemies but the deathly eternal beings of Kirbys world, similar to Hades in Kid Icarus. They serve as arbiters of destruction and entropy. Kirby is the opposite side of the same coin. Everything he sucks up is only gone temporarily. His nemeses seek to eradicate the world as they know it forever, usually remaking it in their own image--such as Drawcia, who seeks to recreate reality in an artsier form. So if Kirby can't die, he just "is"--and as such, reproduction is unnecessary for those on Pop Star, a planet where death is an antiquated concept. Perhaps it once existed on the Shiver Star back when it was known as earth....

 

[Mazzo]

Gotta ask Kirby. The answer would probably be "poyo" or something like that, though...

 

[foxuzamaki]

Kirby is like a Hindu God or something. A perfect being transcending gender.

I like this answer best.

Me too.

 

[lupinko]

Kirby is male, and also a Boo ghost with legs.

Kirby is the third ice climber.

 

[Ultimadrago]

Kirby is a he.

 

[Tackhead #9]

Kirby is...

a jolly fellow.

Beat me to it. Best line in a SNES game!

 

[Blizzard]

I think virtually any comparisons with North America/Europe vs. Japan in regard to Birdo and Vivian are not very relevant unless Kirby is portrayed in Japan in the same fashion.

As has been pointed out here, the complexities of Birdo's character persist even through localization. Do they exist in the Japanese source material? I do not know (I do not speak Japanese to have verified it first-hand), but I suspect they do, considering the localization and the bow Birdo wears. Is there any source material that portrays Kirby in a similarly complex or uncertain manner to Birdo or Vivian, or shows a "normal" Kirby wearing a bow (there is already an example of a "female half" of Kirby wearing a bow, but maybe that's non-canon)?

If not, isn't the simplest explanation the most likely? Maybe it wasn't meant to be a complicated thing.

 

[Chemo]

His name is fucking Kirby. He is obviously male by that indicator alone.

 

[lenovox1]

His name is fucking Kirby. He is obviously male by that indicator alone.

Someone said upthread that he was named after the vacuum brand.