TheDinoman
Member
Technically, the latest DKC games basically were, for all legal purposes, developed internally. Retro Studios is 100% a full first party division of Nintendo not unlike EAD/EPD, whereas Rare wasn't fully owned by them.
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Is Nintendo Too Small For Their Success and Potential?
- Thread starter AntMurda
- Start date
Technically, the latest DKC games basically were, for all legal purposes, developed internally. Retro Studios is 100% a full first party division of Nintendo not unlike EAD/EPD, whereas Rare wasn't fully owned by them.
LegendofLex
Member
uh
Wasn't the entire focus of DS and Wii to focus on "other markets"?
The problem was that midstream they decided that they'd "expanded the game population" enough already and could now go back to their vanity passion projects like Other M, non-Western-style Zelda, and creative 3D Mario games that steal all the cool ideas they hold back from the 2D games. They forgot that the market already rejected their vanity projects on GameCube.
Then they made two entire platforms dedicated to their vanity projects.
Noting the holes in your portfolio and putting forth a little effort to cover them is a more conservative philosophy than seeing those holes and doing nothing.
I don't think anyone's saying they shouldn't be careful and measured about acquiring and partnering with devs, rather than rash and reactionary like EA tends to be. But they shouldn't be nearly so stagnant as they are.
You guys are all also missing out on the massive dividends Nintendo was paying shareholders from 2006 to 2011.
It went from like 35 billion yen to over 200 billion yen before finally coming down a lot in 2012 to ~40 billion to roughly 10-13 billion it is now.
Note that was primarily the Wii and DS money. Its what a lot of companies do. One of the main goals is to return value to shareholders and dividends is a good way to do that and manage taxes among other things.
Now combine that with a fairly large stock buy back program they had been enacting to bring in more capital stock for possible m&a.
Looking back, they should have begun thinking of diversification then, but that's hard to do when you are having a lot of success. Imagine taking all that money and putting it in to better ip licensing, movies, theme parks and other games development and helth care etc.
Again, very easy to say in hindsight.
What I am more perturbed by is a lot of folks lack of business understanding. Being conservative has been what has kept Nintendo around for over 100 years. Staying small and making good money per employee is a good thing.
You dont just expand becuase you can or because you have the money. You expand because your business demands it. Because you think ythe long term demand will keep up.
As well Nintendo doesn't expand willy nilly because they aren't the kind of company to hire and fire with the cycles of development. Instead farming out work and building contractor relationships is what allows them to have better sales and out put with out adding a ton of staff that they'd feel obligated to keep on.
All in all a great discussion. Really good to see folks thinking about it.
It went from like 35 billion yen to over 200 billion yen before finally coming down a lot in 2012 to ~40 billion to roughly 10-13 billion it is now.
Note that was primarily the Wii and DS money. Its what a lot of companies do. One of the main goals is to return value to shareholders and dividends is a good way to do that and manage taxes among other things.
Now combine that with a fairly large stock buy back program they had been enacting to bring in more capital stock for possible m&a.
Looking back, they should have begun thinking of diversification then, but that's hard to do when you are having a lot of success. Imagine taking all that money and putting it in to better ip licensing, movies, theme parks and other games development and helth care etc.
Again, very easy to say in hindsight.
What I am more perturbed by is a lot of folks lack of business understanding. Being conservative has been what has kept Nintendo around for over 100 years. Staying small and making good money per employee is a good thing.
You dont just expand becuase you can or because you have the money. You expand because your business demands it. Because you think ythe long term demand will keep up.
As well Nintendo doesn't expand willy nilly because they aren't the kind of company to hire and fire with the cycles of development. Instead farming out work and building contractor relationships is what allows them to have better sales and out put with out adding a ton of staff that they'd feel obligated to keep on.
All in all a great discussion. Really good to see folks thinking about it.
They are very fiscally conservative. Has allowed them to coast through macroeconomic contractions very successfully so it's not weird they aren't expanding as going through the savings. There's no reason for Nintendo to grow exponentially beyond their current scope other than the forum dweller fantasies of "moar gamez".
I'm not even sure what this means. Yes, every major publisher/developer has projects originating from outer resources. But you are also wrong in saying they weren't made by internal Nintendo employees when there are internal employees purely dedicated to making games in this style (w/ other developers).
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
I believe they did pitch to buy Bandai. Though that was going to be a pure acquisition. Afterwards Iwata mentioned M&A, which would have been very interesting who they might have been considering. I really could only think of Capcom or Tose. Everyone other mid to big sized Japanese game company merged with another equal company.
I don't really have an opinion on if Nintendo is too big or small, but just wanted to point out the SCE comparison isn't a fair one. Sony's situation is entirely different, they don't need to put out a lot of internal games because their console relies so heavily on third party content.
Nintendo relies on their own output so they have to put out more titles from their own teams.
It would be very interesting how the gaming community reacts to that lol
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
But Sony Interactive Entertainment actually does develop a lot of internal games. It's not just the quantity either, but the amount of staff that is dedicated to their big games. (MLB The Show, Uncharted 4, Gran Turismo Sport, Killzone). Then they also have a huge section of R&D developing entertainment apps.
Internet implodes for sure. But I don't see their portfolios meshing so well. Level 5 actually would have been perfect. Tose for their R&D and personnel.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
But they are kind of at a point where they have way too many producers / directors with 20+ years of experience, and not enough game production staff. Especially art staff, which they still seem ill prepared for in this generation.
BarringGaffner
Member
would agree for the most part until Wii U... the games they are charging full price for is insulting.
"Other markets" would be, you know, the markets that weren't the Wii/DS demographic. How would "other markets" be the one Nintendo already had? Nintendo assumed the Wii/DS demographic would stick around and then were left scrambling when that same market was better served by the cell phones they all carried. Eventually Nintendo relented and said they'd chase them on mobile, but we still haven't seen Nintendo gain much traction there.
The problem is that I'm not sure there's room in the market for everything Nintendo wants to be. Everything has been carved into niches, and there are companies serving every single niche very well at this point. Less is more would be Nintendo focusing something specific rather trying to produce gaming hardware and then essentially being the sole major software provider for the same hardware. Third party abandonment has left them trying to spin all the plates by themselves with very little help. They are by far the most brute force company in gaming right now.
Gaiaknight
Member
exactly hell in 2015 Nintendo published over 30 games between wii u and 3ds, no other developer publishes as much software per year as nintendo.
Wutt? Mario kart 8, 3d world, pikmin 3 is not worthy of full price?
I agree with Level-5 here. As both company can support each other here.Nintendo to help maintain the longevity of the new IP and Level-5 will have more freedom to play with new idea for new IP.
BarringGaffner
Member
Yeah I wasn't referring to those few games.
Full price HD remasters, Mario Tennis, Star Fox, etc etc.
We've already seen that this is changing though. Nintendo are pushing their younger developers, which is why Splatoon exists.
Twilight Princess is included with Amiibo right? While Star Fox is included with Guard. So it is not full price too there.
This is where they should found semi-independent IP-focused subsidiaries akin to what they did with The Pokemon Company: Give the veteran producers/directors a space to build their own small dedicated teams unrestricted by Nintendo's corporate rules and try to pursue more experimental projects and partnerships. If one fails it can be closed again, if not they can think about growing it a la Pokemon or merge it back into Nintendo family.
In a way how Splatoon came to being and was handled up to now (regular updates, interaction with the public and those shows) ticks many of those boxes, but we'll have to see if more of such can come from internal Nintendo regularly at a steady rate.
The Giant
Banned
Also Nintendo built a building for Intelligent Systems. Who's main office was inside Nintendo until 2014.
Retro Studios is an internal company. They are a Nintendo studio. Just like how Naughty Dog is an internal Sony studio.
Yeah honestly I would never want to work for Nintendo. Their leadership sounds insular and dumb as rocks when it comes to business. They struck lucky gold with the Wii and did and seemingly still does nothing to preserve that success.
Meanwhile Sony made a mistake with the PS3 but they learned from it, succeeded with PS4, and are taking major steps to preserve their mindshare and marketshare from getting lost again.
Council Pop
Member
I just think it's fascinating how much Nintendo reject huge elements of Western late-capitalism, especially in regards to endless growth. They're constantly working within their means, which is unheard of in the West. They seem to value creative growth over financial.
I'm sure it was already mentioned, but isn't that why they started teaming up with outside companies to assist and/or develop first party titles? It seems to be a safe alternative. Crazy they didn't try to expand more than they did during their peak though... that I'll agree with it. Still disappointed they didn't acquire Hudson
only Eidos Montreal has 500 employees
Yet we see Nintendo go after Mobile, Movies and QoL products.
old manatee
Banned
Nintendo would be bigger than Disney if they didn't lose Final Fantasy during N64 era tbh.
There's a lot of Hudson Soft staff at NdCube, but they're sadly stuck on being a party game factory. I don't know if that's Nintendo saying "hey, this is your niche, so stick to it" or if NdCube themselves don't want to broaden their horizon, but it's still disappointing given how crazy diverse Hudson Soft was when they were around.
EA releases a lot of games per year.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
This thread got me curious and i looked up Microsoft, 118,000 employee's... holy crap.
And yet Nintendo does not go into those business alone though? DENA, Studio 4c and Resmed. Rather jumping to the business alone.
As an older person, I'd like to point out that this is an industry that favors experience over enthusiasm. The core programmers and designers on a game are usually well experienced individuals. It's a situation akin to film making or painting. Technical expertise takes a long time to cultivate and design takes a long time to master.
I'm less concerned with the age of the directors/producers than I am with the mindset. Which is why I previously brought up Iwata's push to remove obstructionist, conservative hardliners from critical positions in the company. As well, Miyamoto has consistently stated that his goal is to pass the reins of design to younger (but not fresh faced 22 year old) designers.
However you make a fair point. You can't make a game with only directors and producers. Modern games often take dozens if not more artists pumping out textures and models.
All of those are partnerships with the partner performing the majority of the production work.
It's probably a good thing.
Nintendo doesn't really downsize.
Do you know what most companies would do if they posted their first annual loss in over 30 years? They'd lay off a good amount of workers to try and please shareholders.
Nintendo has said before employees work best when they're not fearing for their jobs so they will not downsize.
Nintendo may never get out of third place in console sales so I don't think they should expand.
Nintendo doesn't really downsize.
Do you know what most companies would do if they posted their first annual loss in over 30 years? They'd lay off a good amount of workers to try and please shareholders.
Nintendo has said before employees work best when they're not fearing for their jobs so they will not downsize.
Nintendo may never get out of third place in console sales so I don't think they should expand.
Vital Tundra
Member
I wish they would expand. At this point most 3rd parties aren't on board, and while they're output is good, there are still huge gaps in the Wii U's life that were without new games. They need to invest more in development teams if they want to keep from having droughts in a 3rd party-less world.
I'd still like to see Nintendo license Bomberman from Konami and let NdCube loose on it.
Eolz
Member
It's better for their workforce and their audience and cheaper to just pay studios to make some games, or even moneyhat some exclusives.
Battlesmurf
Member
I think the idea that "we're making money, we must grow" is silly sometimes. Unchecked growth (cancer) leads to bad things. How many really wonderful game studios did we lose in the last 10 years? While I do wish there was more "Nintendo" to go around, I think what they're doing allows them to take some hits much better than other companies for sure.
But they are also more prone to be hit due to lack of foresight.
Crow Pudding
Member
I think nintendo is small to sustain itself. They have quite a lot of problems to adapt the HD era and also they historically have problems to sustain a big number of shipments across the year.
No need for losses, big companies like Intel, Google and Microsoft regularly cut a percentage of their workforce just to placate the shareholders whenever the earnings aren't outrageous enough.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
Nintendo has a sustainable business model. They have several IPs that are multi-generational gold to platinum hits. I don't think they need to balloon to Ubisoft numbers, but they are definitely understaffed as far as having the ability to have enough of their big IPs in full production at the same time.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Conservative growth has been their MO for decades. They don't like to spend their way to success by throwing a thousands of hands at tens of products and seeing them fail.
Also, their executive producer stewardship has been the backbone of their development culture. It's harder to do that the bigger they are.
I would imagine they have been grooming the next generation of producers for awhile now and they find the manpower to let them lead.
Also, their executive producer stewardship has been the backbone of their development culture. It's harder to do that the bigger they are.
I would imagine they have been grooming the next generation of producers for awhile now and they find the manpower to let them lead.
I fully expect them to pick up a choice indie studio or two in the not to far future to broaden their workforce in the west. I really do think they would be benefited greatly to turn Retro into their western arm and have it house multiple groups.
The producer problem is a bit of a pickle, though. They really do need to further expand at home as well to solve that problem.
Teuoxton
Member
From later in the thread, now in the OP:
Monolith Soft is an internal studio now yes? If NOA/E is internal I mean.
Monolith Soft always has been internal, close to fully owned by either Namco or Nintendo.
The Giant
Banned
Nintendo owns 97% of Monolithsoft, while the remaining 3% go to the founders of Monolithsoft.
Bamco has no stake in the company. But due to their close relationship with Mono/Nintendo. Nintendo lets Monolithsoft handhead team work with Bamco.
Not sure the word internal is the most accurate on there, but they are a Nintendo subsidiary and thus included in their consolidated employee count. Unlike their minority stake affiliates (The Pokemon Company, Pux, Genius Sonority) or contracted companies which don't tally into their numbers.
Keep in mind SE also includes Eidos (Montreal, Crystal Dynamics, IO, etc) and whatever's left of Taito. They're like four companies in one.
Reminds of that weird rumor they were looking at Hino for pres.
Level 5 would definitely mesh better, Nintendo already publishes most of their library overseas, but I think there's something to be said for the diversity Capcom would add. Competitively too, locking down Monster Hunter and locking out Resident Evil and Streer Fighter from Sony/MS could be a big deal.