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[Hazaro]

In an attempt to enlighten people about progaming (aka StarCraft) here are 2 fantastic Final Edits from Teamliquid.

The first is focused on Flash who redefined playstyles and matchups, a kid who achieved a 90% win rate in one season (when the top players are 65%), someone said to be neigh invincible against anything anyone could throw at him.

The kid who crushed all the greats before him and all the opposition that rose to him.

Flash defines the modern Terran: versatile, confident, and defensively perfect. He is a young boy who dreamt of being like BoxeR and became a progamer. He is a young boy who with his brilliant mind and prodigal skill set the standard for every Terran to follow him at the mere age of 15, an inspiration to younger gamers.

With two consecutive Starleague titles, Jaedong has set the bar high for everyone to follow him. Flash is walking NaDa's path toward a dual victory with confidence and the swagger of a champion. The largest obstacle in his path, Jaedong, was obliterated with ease.

Lee Young Ho is everything NaDa was. He can execute flawless early-game aggression, flawless mid-game timing pushes, and flawless late-game management. Flash began his career pushing TvP to its absolute limit, continued it by defining TvT, and is now at the absolute top of TvZ players.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108774

The next is Baby.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132831

Three years ago, Jun Tae Yang was an unassuming Terran. After placing high in the Elite School League, (T)BaBy, having only seen 12 summers, was drafted by WeMade FOX. But despite his early success, the professional echelon proved to be a different beast altogether, a realm in which only the most dedicated and tireless can etch their name in history. Though dedicated, the amateur prodigy’s results quickly became dismal, and stayed so for many years. It wouldn’t be until the winter of 2009 that Jun Tae Yang would strike from the shadows of WeMade’s B-team, shocking the world by slaying a Tyrant and achieving an all-kill (4-0 vs a team), foreshadowing the end of one age and the beginning of another; a change in seasons.

-----

Then you have the darker side of pro gaming, some of which came to light in part of the match fixing scandal.

The Reality of Progaming
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075

Note that the article has a lot more information, I just plucked some bits.
The B-Team situation is a lot like no skill laborers trying to form a union in the US. There's just too few spots and too many people who would gladly do the job for less.

The first thing that comes up when talking about the life of a progamer is the conflict with parents. The most famous progamer, (T)BoxeR, said that his parents did not know he played StarCraft. Back then "progamer" meant just a person looking to earn money from gaming, before games were broadcasted. On the other hand, the top player right now, (T)Flash, persuaded his parents and became a progamer with parental support. However, this is a story of a progamer who rose in the era where earning over a hundred thousand dollars a year playing games were "role models".

"A" also couldn't avoid the conflict. His parents did not allow him to become a progamer because the future is too uncertain, and "A" also understood his parents. "What kind of a parent would want their kid to lead a difficult life? The future is very dim when you become a progamer....." After a few months, his parents allowed him to pursue his dreams, and after passing the test, he joined a team.

Nowadays, in order to get connections to be able to take tests for progaming teams, people spend a lot of time in clans. Once you hit 20, it becomes almost impossible to be tested to join a team. When asked about this, "A" answered "You have to be at least in your 10's. 20 is the oldest you can be."

Hong asked about the practice time. A daily cycle of a progamer is different from that of a normal person. They wake up around 10 and their day starts after eating breakfast, and it continues until late night. If you look at "Nal_rA's Oldboy" from OGN, the SPARKYZ team ate lunch at 4PM. I think it was to achieve the optimal condition when the leagues take place in the evening. The practice time, not counting time for food, was 11 hours and 30 minutes for A team members, and 13 hours and 30 mnutes for B team members. This was mandatory.

There are barely any days off. There are matches in the weekends, so you have to practice even in the weekends. This became worse as time went on. The players are dissatisfied, but have no way of speaking out. Kim put it this way.

"KeSPA was formed by the corporations that sponsor the teams. Because it helps them advertise, they try to increase the number of matches. They fill up the whole year with matches. It's not like they have to pay more to have more matches."

Players like (T)BaBy debuted at the age of 13. If we see them as laborers, it is illegal.
The gamers between 15 and 17 years of age can be in labor, but the problem is time.

Also, the minimum wage must be met with a labor contract. The minimum wage for 2010 was 4110 wons per hour (app. $3.60). For 44 hours a week, the minimum wage is 928,860 won per month (app. $820). The progamers are required to practice around 60~75 hours a week, and over half of these hours are during weekends and late nights. The weekend and late night minimum wage is 1.5 times larger, so it would be 6165 (app. $5.40) won/hour.

If we say the progamers practice at least 60 hours a week, and if only half of them are part of the 1.5x rate, the minimum amount they need to be paid for a week is 308,250 won (app. $270), for a month, 1,339,345 won (app. $1,180), and for a year, 16,072,155 won (app. $14,000). The minimum wage for a A-team player would be 16 million won, and for B-team player, it would be 20 million (app. $17,600). This shows how much these progamers are working.

If we put these regulations on progaming, the number of progamers would decrease significantly, and some corporations will give up. The increase in pay of a progamer over time will also decrease. However, this will greatly increase the conditions of life of progamers.

This is the reality. B-team players are given a dorm, but they don't get paid. They don't even sign a single thing, let alone a contract. Even if they leave, there are plenty to choose from. The bigger teams pay them 500 thousand wons a month.

What if you're one of the players that play in proleague? They sign a contract. It's not a labor contract, but a civil contract. Even then they get paid 10 million won a year on average and usually doesn't pass 20 million. A few "star" gamers earn over 200 million a year.

Hong asked if the practice hours are mentioned in the civil contract. "A" said no. Hong said if they're going to make certain hours of practice mandatory, it should be a labor contract. Although the hours are not listed in the contract, a civil contract can be nullified by the sponsors at any time, so the players must obey the hours.

Even though StarCraft is an individual sport, a progamer can't participate in even the preliminaries (StarLeague) without being in a progaming team. The system is set up so that the sponsors have ultimate control over the progamers. If it's too much to change the contracts to labor contracts, there should be at least a guarantee of the players' rights and futures. The gamers get treated neither as the "creator" of game content nor the "laborers" for the gaming teams.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

.

Stop Masturbating

 

[Monocle]

"Talent is largely a myth, and pro gaming skills aren't worth the effort they take to gain and maintain. Why not read some good books instead?"


Flash's 6 digit yearly salary says otherwise.

Yeah, I thought someone might bring up that issue. If the money (and travel and social opportunities) that pro gaming can offer appeals to people, that's fine. It's not the career path I would choose were I to have the opportunity. Too much time spent honing skills that have a limited application outside of your work. As opposed to, say, research or writing or illustration or even physical sports. Ultimately though, the ideal career is one that fits a person's tastes, goals and values. I should have qualified my statement in my earlier post.

 

[NEOPARADIGM]

I fully admit it could be a subconscious jealousy thing or something, but I almost respect people less the better the gamer they are.

Anyone who's ever played a game against a novice likely knows what I mean: there are times when it's downright embarrassing just being as good as I am - and I'm not even good, relatively speaking. So when other people make me look like a novice, I almost get embarrassed for them. :lol

For me, competitive gaming is at its best when everyone is just plain competent. Beyond that, like when a game is chalk full of guys who are "talented" and "beastly," games take on a different vibe that I'm just not really down with - and not because I get smoked in games like that (I do), but just because, again, the vibe, the attitude, is different. It's like the difference between a silly beer softball league and a league full of guys who are pretending they're in the majors, ready to, like, fight if their team doesn't win.

But, to each their own, and obviously if you're good enough (or care enough) to go pro, more power to you.

 

[twofold]

Check out the following two books -

Malcolm Gladwell - Outliers
George Leonard - Mastery

They both deal with skill acquisition and explain how it works and how to get the most out of it. They're both well worth a read.

 

[Hazaro]

Check out the following two books -

Malcolm Gladwell - Outliers
George Leonard - Mastery

They both deal with skill acquisition and explain how it works and how to get the most out of it. They're both well worth a read.

If you had to suggest one to read first, which would you?

 

[Yasae]

It's not that you would HAVE to train more, it's that you can improve more so the training will benefit you more. Talent is partly potential, but it's about what you have in innate ability, or how much you can do with NO practice or training. I think It's mostly about having that innate ability; improving your skills when you have talent will make you great while improving your skill if you have no talent will only make you ok.

That's like saying there's the same amount of water in a 20 oz bottle compared to a gallon container. No, you have to fill one more than the other to reach their maximum potential volume.... If that's what you even want to do. Some people don't.

It's about both. I've seen talented people that did awful mixes because they had no skills, and I've seen technically stellar engineers who still came out with garbage because they had no idea what the mix should sound like. This is why talent gives you premonitions. Without them, you're lost. With them, you know what to do if your skill can take you there.

You see things before they happen, you hear them, you feel them. THAT is the most crucial part of talent. Reacting to all of this information is skill.

 

[f0rk]

Then you have the darker side of pro gaming, some of which came to light in part of the match fixing scandal.

The Reality of Progaming
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075

Note that the article has a lot more information, I just plucked some bits.
The B-Team situation is a lot like no skill laborers trying to form a union in the US. There's just too few spots and too many people who would gladly do the job for less.

Although it's obviously bigger in Korea so it makes a difference, I feel the whole B team shit has as much to do with asian culture as pro gaming. If it ever takes off in the west in a big way, the people at the "B team" level will just play part time.

 

[Zzoram]

You definitely need natural talent. There are thousands of these kids in Korea practicing 10+ hours a day hoping to get good enough to stand out but it never happens. When everyone is working that hard, the ones that stand out are the ones with more natural talent. A lot of it is analytical thinking, quick decision making, and GOOD decision making. A lot of it is also mental fortitude. If you crack under pressure or go on tilt when on a losing streak, you're not cut out to be at the top.

Also, it's impossible to get good at Starcraft without strong ties to the community and practice partners. The social element is a must because you can't get quality practice without top level consistent practice partners. The reason players improve so much with Korean training is because they get to live and breathe Starcraft. They live in a house with all top level players and they spend most of their time practicing with each other and discussing strategy and trends. The lone kid in America playing ladder against random people all day just can't get the same out of his practice time as the guy living in a Korean training house. It's the same as practicing basketball in your backyard versus on a competitive team. You can only get so good without help.

 

[Snakeyes]

In my opinion, there are three factors:

1. Hard work/dedication - you need to devote yourself to the game. The most important thing is your attitude. Keep practicing and never give up.

2. Environment - playing against better people will make you better. Set yourself a goal of catching up, and then surpassing them.

3. Talent - experience may allow you to become a top player without a lick of natural talent, but you need the latter in order to truly dominate.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

damn near every legit pro is over 20. I think the joke was that you were the best when you were a kid :lol

I'm way, way better at video games now than I was in my teens. And I don't even play as much these days.

I think the only reason why people think they get "worse" at video games is because at some point most of them stop playing twitch-heavy games or games that punish you severely for mistakes. Everyone gets rusty at some point but if you keep playing that sort of stuff consistently you can only get better.

I fully admit it could be a subconscious jealousy thing or something, but I almost respect people less the better the gamer they are.

Anyone who's ever played a game against a novice likely knows what I mean: there are times when it's downright embarrassing just being as good as I am - and I'm not even good, relatively speaking. So when other people make me look like a novice, I almost get embarrassed for them. :lol

For me, competitive gaming is at its best when everyone is just plain competent. Beyond that, like when a game is chalk full of guys who are "talented" and "beastly," games take on a different vibe that I'm just not really down with - and not because I get smoked in games like that (I do), but just because, again, the vibe, the attitude, is different. It's like the difference between a silly beer softball league and a league full of guys who are pretending they're in the majors, ready to, like, fight if their team doesn't win.

But, to each their own, and obviously if you're good enough (or care enough) to go pro, more power to you.

A lot of the top Street Fighter talent are pretty chill, even though a few of these guys are frequently pitted against each other with thousands of dollars on the line.

Just because they're serious about competing at a high level doesn't mean they aren't normal people.

 

[LiK]

skills

 

[Anth0ny]

There is a such thing as talent in certain games (or in the cases of geniuses like Azen Zagenite, all games in general)

I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who got this :lol

 

[BertramCooper]

Good god, who would ever want to play video games for a profession?

Not only is it a complete waste of a career, it turns a hobby into a job. And that sucks.

 

[TheExodu5]

Talent is a big part of it.

Back in high-school, I basically played CS for 5 hours a day. In my last year or two, I was practicing every single day with my clan (strats, scrims). Barely made it to cal-m after drudging through several cal-o seasons and a cal-im season. We got rocked pretty hard in cal-m.

Dedication isn't everything. I was good, but it's insane how much better some people were. My reflexes just could not match up at all.

 

[NEOPARADIGM]

Just because they're serious about competing at a high level doesn't mean they aren't normal people.

Yeah, I didn't particularly like that post either. I'm obviously on about something, but I didn't articulate it well at all. :/

 

[MarkMan]

Skill. Talent.

Hard work.

Genius.

It's a mixed bag.

And yes, Daigo and Ono summoned me.

Who am I to refuse?

 

[ibu]

It really is a skill, regardless of what the haters may say.
Go and read. Offers a fascinating insight into the whole industry... although from a few years ago.

 

[twofold]

If you had to suggest one to read first, which would you?

Outliers deals with the theory behind why people are successful at certain activities and gives a ton of examples. It doesn't deal explicitly with skill acquisition, but it examines how other variables can lead to people gaining skills that are useful in their given profession.

Mastery, on the other hand, is very practical and contains a lot of applicable information to improve skill acquisition and speed up (or at least, learn to love) the learning curve.

If you want to learn about the mechanics behind skill acquisition, check out Outliers. If you want to improve your skill acquisition, read Mastery.

Personally, I'd read Mastery first. It's more practical and the information given is more useful. It's available free on the internet as a pdf, too. They're both well worth a read, though.

Edit - The article on the 'reality of progaming' is so sad. I knew Korean progamers were earning a pittance, but that articles shows that those kids are being screwed over big time. I can't believe people can support Kespa when they carry out what basically amounts to slave labour. It's a shame that the progamers themselves are too young and naive too stand up to their peers and set up a players union. So fucked up.

 

[zoukka]

99% practice 1% talent.

The quality of the practicing is the key. You need good mentors and methods.

 

[Hazaro]

Edit - The article on the 'reality of progaming' is so sad. I knew Korean progamers were earning a pittance, but that articles shows that those kids are being screwed over big time. I can't believe people can support Kespa when they carry out what basically amounts to slave labour. It's a shame that the progamers themselves are too young and naive too stand up to their peers and set up a players union. So fucked up.

They feed them and they get to play StarCraft. It's their choice to be in that environment and pursue that goal.

The problem is that it's structured so that there's no other way to break into the scene.
Luckily with GSL (StarCraft II) it's a global invitational (at least for the first 3 ranking seasons). GSL (SC:BW) was also more open to players, but I forget why. I think the people who got in were all on teams anyway.