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[Aztechnology]

The empire is the Third Reich and The First Order are Neo Nazi's. To a degree it makes sense that they simply followed the path of the old Empire. However that being said, it was a very poor choice and I agree that it led to wasted characters like Phasma who were essentially just used to hang a lantern on shutting down the shields and progressing the story.

TFA let me down in a lot of ways and that was a large portion of why.

But that's how it goes, the film was designed to being the old Star Wars formula into a new generation. Nostalgia was pretty much the hook line and sinker.

I've had this discussion with friends and I 100% agree with you. Your thoughts line up very closely to what I would have liked to see.

 

[FriendlyGoat]

It's a little clumsy, but I don't think it is that bad. The period leading up to the rise of The First Order is roughly analogous to the period from World War I to World War II. The Empire was defeated, treaties were signed, the remnants of the empire coalesced around some new leader preaching fascist dogma, the Republic took piece for granted and ignored or was blind to the threat until it was too late. Only in this case both the Empire and The First Order were space Nazis.

Honestly, it's more true to life than the formation of the Empire.

 

[Oppo]

i do think there is a missed opportunity in not having Starkiller base disabled rather than destroyed. would have made for a fun inversion and not really hurt any big arcs.

 

[pa22word]

TFA is part one of a trilogy that had the heavy lifting duties of restoring the Star Wars "feel" to the universe after the prequels, while simultaneously introducing new characters and tying those characters to the past so old fans would be drawn back into the fold after the prequels shit in their mouths.

Wait for the next two parts to flesh out the actual universe before declaring it all a failure.

Seriously, it's like being pissed that the One Ring wasn't destroyed at the end of Fellowship. You're in for a longer story. Let it play out.

One can restore the star wars feel without using the series first sequel entry in like 30 years to do nothing but a straight faced remake the first film with all the subtlety of a sledge hammer to the face.

 

[RevenWolf]

My bad I didn't actually read the chain you were responding to.

No worries lol, I probably could have gone harder on the sarcasm but was worried about being too obnoxious.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

But back on topic:

Everything about TFA is a contrived narrative mess. I suspect that once the "omg Star Wars" sheen wears off, the diehard fans who mindlessly rated it highly will turn on it and put it beside The Phantom Menace as one of the worst travesties to ever happen to the franchise.

This will never happen - the narrative could be kylo ren taking a literal dump on Vader's mask while everyone watches and the characters and action would keep it afloat.

Daisy and John alone are more compelling than literally everything good about the prequels combined.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

However that being said, it was a very poor choice and I agree that it led to wasted characters like Phasma who were essentially just used to hang a lantern on shutting down the shields and progressing the story.

Well, Phasma was a late addition to the story who really only existed at all because JJ didn't want to discard the caped, chrome Stormtrooper design. That's the reason why she doesn't have much of a purpose in the movie. We haven't seen the last of her though.

 

[kurahador]

One can restore the star wars feel without using the series first sequel entry in like 30 years to do nothing but a straight faced remake the first film with all the subtlety of a sledge hammer to the face.

Yeah...anyone remember Mad Max Fury Road?

 

[deadscreensky]

It's pretty bad. It feels like something they should have introduced in a sequel, or even in the second half of the film. Coming into the film with them extremely powerful and no real explanation might fit the obvious goal of being in medias res -- very Star Wars -- but the Force Awakens was a sequel and couldn't just arbitrarily decide to ignore the events of Jedi. You can make up reasons why Jedi led to TFA, but the film needed to actually give us some of its own.

This wouldn't have even been particularly difficult, a few minutes of expanding the universe at most. All sorts of places to insert a brief summary of recent events, if you want to preserve that opening 'shock' you wouldn't even need to use the opening crawl. Maybe have somebody talk about the aftermath of the war on Jakku, for example. (I think the actual canon idea is the defeated remnants of the Empire settled down and a cold war started? Easy to have some veteran ranting about it or whatever.)

Not doing anything about this both takes away from the OT, making it seem like all of that was for nothing, and makes TFA feel like even more of a retread than was necessary. Just bad storytelling. (Classic J.J. Abrams, it seems neat until you give it even a second of consideration and then it falls apart.)

EDIT: The idea that Star Wars didn't have lengthy politics stuff from literally the first film has always been one of its goofier fandom myths. A New Hope has all sorts of political stuff in it, from discussions about the Senate getting dissolved to talking about pacifist planets to arguments about whether the Force is real or not. Politics in an adventure movie aren't inherently bad, you just need to do it with panache, like that scene where Vader chokes the Imperial officer who makes fun of the Force. When I was a little kid that scene had me rapt, and it's mostly 'boring' political talk.

 

[RevenWolf]

One can restore the star wars feel without using the series first sequel entry in like 30 years to do nothing but a straight faced remake the first film with all the subtlety of a sledge hammer to the face.

Well except for all the parts that weren't the same, but sure totally 100% remake no matter how many hundreds of things have been pointed out already.

 

[Nydius]

Breh, I know all about the current canon. What I'm saying is that you cannot expect the film going audience to have knowledge from the EU, if it's not explained in the movies then it isn't properly setup. I love Rebels but if Ezra and Kanan just showed up in Ep. 8 with zero setup or explanation I would call that nonsense.

You're right that it's nonsensical to expect people to walk into a movie having read books to set up the movie. But to Disney, that's precisely what they expect because it's no longer an "EU" but all equal parts of the whole. Had I not read Catalyst, there would have been some parts of Rogue One that would have been slightly confusing.

Dumb, undoubtedly, but this is their new business model to sell everything Star Wars all the time.

 

[BocoDragon]

I don't mind the idea of a neo-Empire. In fact it's necessary to "reconstitute" Star Wars into its classic elements after the diversion of the prequels.

But they didn't stress the significance of it being a remnant that is reborn into a major political force. It's all there in theory (the New Republic underestimating TFO and then getting destroyed by Starkiller), but no character nor the film itself spell out how significant this revolution is. It comes across like another day in the life of a super villanous military rather than the dramatic shift in galactic power that it should be.

It's possible this is another consequence of JJ and crew gutting the New Republic exposition scenes involving Leia. This continues to be a boneheaded move IMO.

 

[Aztechnology]

god everything about Starkiller Base is horrible, the existence of Rogue One making an even bigger deal out of the Death Star makes it worse.

Completely. My whole experience so far since TFA has been. Please not more deathstar shit, please not more deathstar shit.

 

[broncobuster]

While I don't feel it's that absurd in theory, the audience experiencing it as a 30 year time skip is jarring. One would assume it's a gradual manipulation and recruitment. Maybe the books get into the world building but what's in the movie did not.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I don't care about politics in Star Wars. Give me some compelling characters and a bit of development on the good and bad side and I'm good. The prequels got too bogged down in that shit.

Couldn't disagree more. I love politics. Best thing in the prequels and the new trilogy should embrace it. The First Order was an awful idea. EU did it better. They should be a ragtag force like the rebels used to be.

 

[pa22word]

Yeah...anyone remember Mad Max Fury Road?

Mad max is hardly straight faced about it, which is what makes it works. TFA is just hey its star wars again, nothing too out there and interesting just regular ass star wars again. Be excited! I mean that may be enough for some people and that's fine, but in a universe as vast as star wars is I can't help but feel massive cinematic blue balls at what a boring route they ended up taking with it. I could have sat home and watched a new hope again and saved my money plus the time standing in a line to see it.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Yes. I don't dislike the idea of a new empire, but they kinda skip the entire part of them rising up and then building a super death star.

Star Wars is this vast universe that is always stuck doing the same thing, and because of the prequels people are afraid to jump out of that.

 

[Fj0823]

Yes.

If they were struggling remnants of the empire or something it would've been way better.

But we got essentially...The Empire in full force, again.

It negates everything the heroes accomplished in Jedi.

The best option though? For me, Lay off the member berries and just have the Knights of Ren be religious terrrorists, killing and spreading fear in the name of their twisted version of the Force

 

[Jest Chillin]

It's actually explained fairly well in the dialogue of the movie itself if you care to internalize what is being said between the action set peices.

The New Republic has more or less restablished control politcally but remnants of the Empire realigned themselves as The First Order. The First Order clearly has plans to regain control of power for nefariousness BUT politically they're denying it. The New Republic can't initiate aggression to stomp them out otherwise they're not the peace-striving organization they claim to be... But at the same time they're not naive enough to take The First Order at their word. Hence a lot of the veterans of The Rebellion cut ties with The New Republic outwardly and becomes The Resistance in order to fight The First Order. The New Republic decries The Resistance publicaly while supporting them secretly in the hopes of at least keeping The First Order in check.

Meanwhile The First Order secretly builds the super weapon to destroy The New Republic outright knowing they outman and outpower The Resistance, who they are free to fight openly the whole time since The Resistance is technically a terrorist guerilla force.

By sucessfully destroying the core of The New Republic, The First Order has destroyed any central unifying Gov't. Now it's The First Order vs. The Resistance (who will likely get bolstered by surviving powers of The New Republic) in an all out war for control of the galaxy.

So now neither side has the upper hand in terms of official power. It's two opposing factions of relatively equal power.

Also, Civil War and subterfuge/proxy war has already been done during Eps 1-3 and The Clone Wars.

 

[yanipheonu]

Eh I have no problem with Star Wars history being a flat circle. Frankly with the rise of the far right and neo Nazis it's actually become more poigent.

Its honestly hard to judge. The Empire really gained it's weight from Empire Strikes Back. Let's see what episode 8 brings.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Couldn't disagree more. I love politics. Best thing in the prequels and the new trilogy should embrace it. The First Order was an awful idea. EU did it better. They should be a ragtag force like the rebels used to be.

Empire in guerrilla warfare as the New Republic draws down to a realistic size and coverage would have been so much more interesting.
'Space Terrorists " to Saw's "Freedom Fighters"

 

[Fj0823]

Empire in guerrilla warfare as the New Republic draws down to a realistic size and coverage would have been so much more interesting.
'Space Terrorists " to Saw's "Freedom Fighters"

This.

 

[RevenWolf]

It's actually explained fairly well in the dialogue of the movie itself if you care to internalize what is being said between the action set peices.

The New Republic has more or less restablished control politcally but remnants of the Empire realigned themselves as The First Order. The First Order clearly has plans to regain control of power for nefariousness BUT politically they're denying it. The New Republic can't initiate aggression to stomp them out otherwise they're not the peace-striving organization they claim to be... But at the same time they're not naive enough to take The First Order at their word. Hence a lot of the veterans of The Rebellion cut ties with The New Republic outwardly and becomes The Resistance in order to fight The First Order. The New Republic decries The Resistance publicaly while supporting them secretly in the hopes of at least keeping The First Order in check.

Meanwhile The First Order secretly builds the super weapon to destroy The New Republic outright knowing they outman and outpower The Resistance, who they are free to fight openly the whole time since The Resistance is technically a terrorist guerilla force.

By sucessfully destroying the core of The New Republic, The First Order has destroyed any central unifying Gov't. Now it's The First Order vs. The Resistance (who will likely get bolstered by surviving powers of The New Republic) in an all out war for control of the galaxy.

So now neither side has the upper hand in terms of official power. It's two opposing factions of relatively equal power.

Also, Civil War and subterfuge/proxy war has already been done during Eps 1-3 and The Clone Wars.

Yup, I still don't get how people walk away from the movie not understanding this, I mean the dialogue all points to it or outright states it at other times...

 

[brandonh83]

TFA is part one of a trilogy that had the heavy lifting duties of restoring the Star Wars "feel" to the universe after the prequels, while simultaneously introducing new characters and tying those characters to the past so old fans would be drawn back into the fold after the prequels shit in their mouths.

Wait for the next two parts to flesh out the actual universe before declaring it all a failure.

Seriously, it's like being pissed that the One Ring wasn't destroyed at the end of Fellowship. You're in for a longer story. Let it play out.

Hey cool someone gets it!

 

[CadetMahoney]

Yes, totally. The thing just felt incredibly boring in a well meaning but tired call back to a new hope. Move on with the series, the entire point of 4-6 was destroying the empire. Now instead of doing anything interesting with the series they're just running on a treadmill. Snore.

It really is lame and why I prefer R1 over TFA.

Also we've seen a death star blown up 3 times now.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

One problem I had with Episode 7 was that basically nothing changed between episode 6 and now. The Jedi are still extinct, the first order built a bigger, better superweapon that destroyed the republic like it was nothing, and the rebels are somehow still the underdogs despite all the victories in the 1-3.

It also cheapens Rogue One imo. The Death Star was built up throughout the entire movie to be this terrifying doomsday device and the crowning achievement of the Empire. They had to sacrifice so much just to get the plans and had to retreat when it appeared.

But no, apperantly they could have built Death Star 2.0 whenever they wanted.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Hey cool someone gets it!

Except this would be like if after Sauron was defeated, Sauron's distant third nephew takes up the mantle and made NEW RINGS OF POWER and makes MORE POWERFUL ORCS and has a NEW SARUMAN and you get the idea.

 

[yanipheonu]

Seriously if there's another Death Star or similar design in the next one, I'm tempted to say I'm just gonna be done with the franchise. There's other more exciting forms of warfare in that universe I'm sure.

Actually, you know what would be interesting?

If the New Republic and/or the Resistance had a Superweapon.

Like how after nukes were invented, other countries started making them. Superweapon deterrent. Maybe even having to have the Resistance turn against the Republic to make sure either side does not have a Superweapon.

 

[Za-Neen-Jya]

They really should have just adapted the Heir to the Empire books by Timothy Zhan and called it a day. Those books told the story of the years after Return of the Jedi so much better than Force Awakens. It's just disappointing that they went with the lame story they did and Zahn's work is not canon any more thanks to fucking Disney.

 

[brandonh83]

Except this would be like if after Sauron was defeated, Sauron's distant third nephew takes up the mantle and made NEW RINGS OF POWER and makes MORE POWERFUL ORCS and has a NEW SARUMAN and you get the idea.

Eh no I don't think so really. Not like that at all.

 

[Chichikov]

I think they correctly realized that this type of story works best when the good guys are the underdogs fighting the system, man!
Now yeah, it wasn't pulled in the most elegant way, but it's not all that different than what Empire Strikes Back did, I mean sure, it was done better, but it still pretty much "poochie went to his home planet" the first movie in the opening crawl (and I can tell you as a kid it was confusing as all hell, I watched all the original trilogy on back to back to back days when Jedi was first release, and I honestly thought that I missed 4 movies between Star Wars and Empire).

So as a whole, I understand why they did it, it could have been done in a better way, but it didn't matter all that much to me. And honestly, I'd rather have a quick and silly handwavy "explanation" than a whole lot of backstory to explain why we'd like to have the good guys wins and still be the underdog in the next movie.

Actually, you know what would be interesting?

If the New Republic and/or the Resistance had a Superweapon.

Like how after nukes were invented, other countries started making them. Superweapon deterrent. Maybe even having to have the Resistance turn against the Republic to make sure either side does not have a Superweapon.

I don't know man, I think the last thing that Star Wars needs is a metaphor for mutually assured destruction. In fact, I think those movies need to stay the fuck away from actually being serious about the implication of shit like the death star. Yeah yeah, realism realism, war movie war movie, but if you break it down "seriously" this is the holocaust times a million, and I don't need that in a movie about space wizards with laser swords.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I don't think the First Order was a mistake, because realistically something was going to rise from the ashes of the Empire. But Starkiller Base absolutely was a blunder.

The story was building momentum, with Han, Rey and Finn connecting and realzing they have the key to finding Luke Skywalker, and starting to race Kylo Ren to get to him first. And then the film cold cuts to a new super weapon to blow up planets we've never heard of or hear about again, draining the forward momentum of that story.

Everything the characters go through on the base is great, but nearly everything having to do with the base itself - dropping the shields, targeting the "oscillator" whatever the fuck that is, draining the sun, etc - was badly done, rushed and only detracted from the great dynamics at play with the leads.

I wish the film kept the focus on getting to Luke, and avoided another super weapon. Every important beat the story hits could have been done and explored further without the need to have another Death Star in the mix. And this is before getting into how it was one parallel too many to ANH; I think TFA up to that point was pretty smart in how it parallels and that film. Right until Starkiller is introduced and we get another trench run

 

[Measley]

It's actually explained fairly well in the dialogue of the movie itself if you care to internalize what is being said between the action set peices.

The New Republic has more or less restablished control politcally but remnants of the Empire realigned themselves as The First Order. The First Order clearly has plans to regain control of power for nefariousness BUT politically they're denying it. The New Republic can't initiate aggression to stomp them out otherwise they're not the peace-striving organization they claim to be... But at the same time they're not naive enough to take The First Order at their word. Hence a lot of the veterans of The Rebellion cut ties with The New Republic outwardly and becomes The Resistance in order to fight The First Order. The New Republic decries The Resistance publicaly while supporting them secretly in the hopes of at least keeping The First Order in check.

Meanwhile The First Order secretly builds the super weapon to destroy The New Republic outright knowing they outman and outpower The Resistance, who they are free to fight openly the whole time since The Resistance is technically a terrorist guerilla force.

By sucessfully destroying the core of The New Republic, The First Order has destroyed any central unifying Gov't. Now it's The First Order vs. The Resistance (who will likely get bolstered by surviving powers of The New Republic) in an all out war for control of the galaxy.

So now neither side has the upper hand in terms of official power. It's two opposing factions of relatively equal power.

Also, Civil War and subterfuge/proxy war has already been done during Eps 1-3 and The Clone Wars.

Yep.

Unfortunately, some people simply want to hate on TFA for whatever reason.

 

[Zabka]

First Order was fine. New Death Star was a giant mistake. Then it was followed by yet another Death Star focused movie.

I'm bored with giant space lasers.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Except this would be like if after Sauron was defeated, Sauron's distant third nephew takes up the mantle and made NEW RINGS OF POWER and makes MORE POWERFUL ORCS and has a NEW SARUMAN and you get the idea.

This is a bad example because The Lord of the Rings is exactly what you accuse TFA of being since Sauron previously had nearly supreme power and was barely defeated before damn near doing it again in LoTR.

 

[brandonh83]

Unfortunately, some people simply want to hate on TFA for whatever reason.

It's mostly this.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

One can restore the star wars feel without using the series first sequel entry in like 30 years to do nothing but a straight faced remake the first film with all the subtlety of a sledge hammer to the face.

Except it's not a remake of the first film. There are obvious parallels, but most of the shit people call it out for as being a remake ("it starts with a droid in the desert carrying a secret!" "There's a wise short alien person!") is so surface-level as to be laughable.

Characters, motivations, relationships--all of the actual important things about the story are pretty much as different from ANH as one could hope for (and please don't bring up how Rey is aping Luke's character arc. It's a classic hero's journey that loads of characters in fiction go on).

 

[Agent_Carnage]

That is one of the reasons why I dident like EP VII all that much. I hope EP VIII addresses the issues I had with EP VII.

 

[kurahador]

This is a bad example because The Lord of the Rings is exactly what you accuse TFA of being since Sauron previously had nearly supreme power and was barely defeated before damn near doing it again in LoTR.

Sauron having dominion over middle earth wasn't covered in a trilogy of movies, just in the introduction.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

I don't think the First Order was a mistake, because realistically something was going to rise from the ashes of the Empire. But Starkiller Base absolutely was a blunder.

The story was building momentum, with Han, Rey and Finn connecting and realzing they have the key to finding Luke Skywalker, and starting to race Kylo Ren to get to him first. And then the film cold cuts to a new super weapon to blow up planets we've never heard of or hear about again, draining the forward momentum of that story.

Everything the characters go through on the base is great, but nearly everything having to do with the base itself - dropping the shields, targeting the "oscillator" whatever the fuck that is, draining the sun, etc - was badly done, rushed and only detracted from the great dynamics at play with the leads.

I wish the film kept the focus on getting to Luke, and avoided another super weapon. Every important beat the story hits could have been done and explored further without the need to have another Death Star in the mix. And this is before getting into how it was one parallel too many to ANH; I think TFA up to that point was pretty smart in how it parallels and that film. Right until Starkiller is introduced and we get another trench run

But then like how you gonna make dem new big bads all intimidatn like,
How dey gonna 1shot the New Republic to reset us to Galactic Civil War 2?

 

[brandonh83]

Except it's not a remake of the first film. There are obvious parallels, but most of the shit people call it out for as being a remake ("it starts with a droid in the desert carrying a secret!" "There's a wise short alien person!") is so surface-level as to be laughable.

It's simple minded as fuck. They're not the same movie. Parallels? Out the ass, but that's what SW has always did.

 

[GhaleonEB]

5. The fact that a janitor knows the details of a super weapon, and the weakness to it is very similar to the old one.

To be fair, Finn didn't know the weakness, the scouts that went ahead of them came back with it and they figured out what to target. Finn didn't even know how to drop the shields, he was just bluffing to get a chance at saving Rey.

It was also pretty clever how the New Order tried to fix the flaws from the prior Death Stars.

Death Star 1: Weakness, exhaust port.
Death Star 2: Shield is put up over the entire station; Rebels blow it up.
Starkiller Base: Shield is projected from the base itself, and the weak point has a giant plate over it that the ships can't blast through. Rebels Resistance flies right through it (lol) and blows a hole under the plate protecting the weak spot.

The New Order tried. I hope they give up after this.

But then like how you gonna make dem new big bads all intimidatn like,
How dey gonna 1shot the New Republic to reset us to Galactic Civil War 2?

I wish they reversed the roles of the Empire and the Rebels. The New Order is a small but powerful fleet going around making fast, brutal strikes as we saw in the opening scene of TFA, taking resources, ships, prisoners and poking more and more holes in the Republic. Eventually prompting a response that exposes the core systems to direct attack.

 

[Davide]

I'm less bothered by the Resistance than the New Republic having no presence in the movie and the Resistance being exactly like the rebels. But it's fine.

 

[aceface]

Except this would be like if after Sauron was defeated, Sauron's distant third nephew takes up the mantle and made NEW RINGS OF POWER and makes MORE POWERFUL ORCS and has a NEW SARUMAN and you get the idea.

Yeah it's sort of like after Morgoth was defeated, his lieutenant Sauron returned to fool men and make rings of power to enslave the world. Oh wait...

 

[Drensch]

it does kind of make it feel like everything that happened under Obama means shit all and the country is in the same spot it was before.

All is takes is a Snoke to get people bitching about Wookies and Mon Calamari taking all the jobs to get parts of the galaxy to want it to go back to 30 years ago like it was under Regan, I mean Palpatine.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Sauron having dominion over middle earth wasn't covered in a trilogy of movies, just in the introduction.

Correct. It wasn't covered in a trilogy of movies but LoTR wasn't a trilogy of movies to begin with so one can't use the "if it's not in the movies, it doesn't count" excuse to hand wave existing canonical lore.

 

[Abinash117]

I guess they can make it that the First Order is one of the many numerous factions that came from the fallen Empire. With the destruction of the New Republic's capital the First Order's real goal might be to instigate a war with the New Republic and get the other Imperial factions involved in the war whilst the New Order gains more influence over these factions too. Starkiller would have served it's purpose so it is not a big setback and Snoke would obviously had played a part for whatever reason.

The heroes in episode 8 would be trying to delay a wider war from rising. I think that is the angle they can do. However , it does seem weird that the Resistance was surprised about Star-killer as their would be intelligence keeping tabs on the New Order so they should have known. Is it explained how the New Order kept it a secret?

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

After losing Starkiller Base I really hope the First Order is extremely damaged by it.
For the love of God don't give me "The First Order Strikes Back" seriously they should be weaker than the OT Rebels at this point.

I wish they reversed the roles of the Empire and the Rebels. The New Order is a small but powerful fleet going around making fast, brutal strikes as we saw in the opening scene of TFA, taking resources, ships, prisoners and poking more and more holes in the Republic. Eventually prompting a response that exposes the core systems to direct attack.

Yup.

 

[brandonh83]

After losing Starkiller Base I really hope the First Order is extremely damaged by it.
For the love of God don't give me "The First Order Strikes Back" seriously they should be weaker than the OT Rebels at this point.

I agree but I think it is going to be different moving forward. I thought Starkiller was sensible for establishing a new galactic threat but it's out of the way. I think it'll be a lot more character centric moving forward.

 

[bonesmccoy]

TFO - What was left over of the Empire after RotJ and Jakku etc.

The bits the NR wasn't able to politically or economically dominate. They reformed into the TFO and are very evil.

Resistance - What was left of the Rebels who refused to put down their weapons and still maintain open hostilities with TFO. Essentially a strike force.

easy peasy

I expect the NR and Resistance to be reformed into one body in E8 and 9.