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I don't like the fact that a lot of information about the First Order has to be read in comics and other media outside TFA. I don't really like Disney going for the new expanded universe from the get go. Ep 4 didn't have that when Lucas was writing it. He had to have that movie, by itself, explain enough of the universe for the Empire and the Rebellion to seem plausible to viewers.

If you only watched A New Hope, how much information did you really get about the Empire? They're a seemingly evil totalitarian government that will kill civilians that get in their way.....they dissolved the Senate.....they have a big Death Star that can blow up planets and a mysterious emperor ruling over all. That's pretty much it. You barely knew anything about the Rebel Alliance either, other than they were against the Empire.

I think the First Order is about as well developed as the Empire is in ANH.

 

[Chumley]

Ep. 8 flat out has to answer the following questions -

#1: How did the First Order become even more powerful than the Empire ever was in the time since ROTJ? They gained a weapon that destroys multiple planets at once.

#2: Why and how did the republic/rebels remain ignorant about what was happening? They effectively won after ROTJ and had no logical reason to not finish off the Empire.

It's still a narrative fuck up on TFA's part even if Ep. 8 does somehow make sense of all of this, though. It's much worse than the Empire being underdeveloped in ANH because it was our introduction into that world for the first time ever. TFA is a direct continuation of everything we knew from the OT, and in that context it strains credulity that the rebel alliance were blind as bats to another Death Star being created.

 

[RareFantasy64]

Seriously if there's another Death Star or similar design in the next one, I'm tempted to say I'm just gonna be done with the franchise. There's other more exciting forms of warfare in that universe I'm sure.

I hated the third Death Star but I honestly think I would sincerely LOL so hard if they did a fourth Death Star that I would have to respect their trolling if they did it

I'm seriously laughing out loud over the thought of them doing a fourth one

 

[sphagnum]

What if they went with the original RotJ plan and had two new Death Stars at the same time?

 

[RyanW]

I feel like the opening crawl did an alright job at explaining things:

"Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke's whereabouts...."

Basically they're a terrorist group at this point. Similar to the EU they just broke off and held similar Imperial views.

Although there should be better explanation for the Resistance. Either better point out that the Republic no longer had a former military and thought the First Order was not a huge threat, hence why the Republic as a whole didn't go after them, or scrap that and just have the Republic go up against the them.

 

[Chichikov]

Ep. 8 flat out has to answer the following questions -

#1: How did the First Order become even more powerful than the Empire ever was in the time since ROTJ? They gained a weapon that destroys multiple planets at once.

#2: Why and how did the republic/rebels remain ignorant about what was happening? They effectively won after ROTJ and had no logical reason to not finish off the Empire.

It's still a narrative fuck up on TFA's part even if Ep. 8 does somehow make sense of all of this, though. It's much worse than the Empire being underdeveloped in ANH because it was our introduction into that world for the first time ever. TFA is a direct continuation of everything we knew from the OT, and in that context it strains credulity that the rebel alliance were blind as bats to another Death Star being created.

I really don't give a fuck about explanations in Star Wars, I donno, maybe I'm still scarred by the prequels, but as a whole, I really don't need too much backstory, that's what the crawl if for.

I mean, do you think The Empire Strikes back would've been better film if the first 30 minutes was about how the empire bounce back from the events of the first movie?

 

[Chumley]

I feel like the opening crawl did an alright job at explaining things:



Basically they're a terrorist group at this point. Similar to the EU they just broke off and held similar Imperial views.

Although there should be better explanation for the Resistance. Either better point out that the Republic no longer had a former military and thought the First Order was not a huge threat, hence why the Republic as a whole didn't go after them, or scrap that and just have the Republic go up against the them.

No, that makes absolute fuck all sense. Starkiller is the Death Star x3, a weapon so ludicrously powerful cannot possibly be kept under wraps after everything they went through in the OT. The reason the Death Star was able to do what it wanted was because the Empire controlled everything, but after ROTJ the Republic took power.

I really don't give a fuck about explanations in Star Wars, I donno, maybe I'm still scarred by the prequels, but as a whole, I really don't need too much backstory, that's what the crawl if for.

I mean, do you think The Empire Strikes back would've been better film if the first 30 minutes was about how the empire bounce back from the events of the first movie?

That wasn't necessary in TES because we already knew the Empire's power was far reaching and beyond just the Death Star, they were established as the pre-eminent force in the galaxy. The First Order being a secret terrorist splinter group on the other hand makes no sense, their power equals or surpasses OT Empire if Starkiller is any indication.

 

[Astral Dog]

Starkiller base is the Death Star but bigger,badder and more Eco friendly 🌳

 

[Sunster]

It really is lame and why I prefer R1 over TFA.

Also we've seen a death star blown up 3 times now.

worst part of the plot imo. I mean, create a new threat for Christ's sake.

 

[Oersted]

It's not "yet another Star Wars", it's the same Star Wars just repackaged and after years of rebuilding under a new leader.

It really reads like a clever metaphor of modern day filmmaking

 

[Shaanyboi]

It's not "yet another Empire", it's the same Empire just repackaged and after decades of rebuilding under a new leader.

Which I kind of like because the abject stupidity of Return of the Jedi really doesn't explain why the Empire would just go away because they blew up another space station and threw the old man down an elevator shaft. It would continue in some form.

Basically.

Remember how the Nazis got beaten and fascist ideology disappeared forever? Or when racism in America ended when Obama got elected? Me neither.

 

[MHWilliams]

Yep.

You didn't even mention the fact that they managed to amass a mega empire in less than 30 years while the galaxy was seemingly at peace.

Rogue One kicks its butt.

Why would the remnants of the Empire not have a fighting force?

No one is aptly able to explain that outside of "But I thought the Empire went away completely!" Someone even mentioned the Expanded Universe and Zahn, but the Imperial Remnant is literally the same thing.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

I think they need a movie between VI and VII. Look at the end of VI with the celebrations and statue falling etc. Then right from the start of VII it's back to dark side oppression with little explanation. VII is so vague about everything I think it'll be a better movie when other stories are told around it.

In a perfect world, the time spent on that Raftar garbage goes towards a scene of Leia trying to get The Republic to go after TFO. That way Leia doesn't look incompetent as a general for being oblivious to SKB, we know wtf the Hosnian system is before its blown off the map, and we care just a little bit about billions dying.

 

[Jest Chillin]

No, that makes absolute fuck all sense. Starkiller is the Death Star x3, a weapon so ludicrously powerful cannot possibly be kept under wraps after everything they went through in the OT. The reason the Death Star was able to do what it wanted was because the Empire controlled everything, but after ROTJ the Republic took power.



That wasn't necessary in TES because we already knew the Empire's power was far reaching and beyond just the Death Star, they were established as the pre-eminent force in the galaxy. The First Order being a secret terrorist splinter group on the other hand makes no sense, their power equals or surpasses OT Empire if Starkiller is any indication.

The galaxy is MASSIVE. There are literally unexplored regions of it. It's not at all impossible to hide a superweapon.

And no, The First Order doesn't need to be as powerful or moreso than The Empire to have that weapon when The First Order should logically have access to much of the intel that The Empire collected since it was formed from the high ranking officers of zthe Empire that didn't surrender.

 

[Chumley]

Why would the remnants of the Empire not have a fighting force?

No one is aptly able to explain that outside of "But I thought the Empire went away completely!" Someone even mentioned the Expanded Universe and Zahn, but the Imperial Remnant is literally the same thing.

Everyone knows the Empire wouldn't just vanish, but we need to know why the rebels would be so braindead stupid as to not keep an eye on them until they fucking blow up 3 planets.

The galaxy is MASSIVE. There are literally unexplored regions of it. It's not at all impossible to hide a superweapon.

And no, The First Order doesn't need to be as powerful or moreso than The Empire to have that weapon when The First Order should logically have access to much of the intel that The Empire collected since it was formed from the high ranking officers of zthe Empire that didn't surrender.

So you're telling me scrappy rebels without Luke were able to get their shit together and figure out the first Death Star was being made, but not the rebels who decisively won against the Empire in ROTJ + Luke with free reign to explore the galaxy without interference?

 

[RyanW]

No, that makes absolute fuck all sense. Starkiller is the Death Star x3, a weapon so ludicrously powerful cannot possibly be kept under wraps after everything they went through in the OT. The reason the Death Star was able to do what it wanted was because the Empire controlled everything, but after ROTJ the Republic took power.

Factions of the Empire were still in control after RotJ. It wasn't all like "Oh hey we killed the Emperor now we can move in to Coruscant and you can't do anything about it"

While not mentioned in the movie but in other forms of media, which helps your point but for the sake of explanation, the planet(speculated to contain Kyber Crystals which are used to power the weapon) that became Starkiller is in unknown regions of space most likely out of the view of the Republic. The faction that left what was left of the Empire and later became the First Order took control of this planet. Now I personally don't know what they did to get a planet to become a super weapon but there were First Order sympathizers in the senate and maybe Imperial "treasures" helped hem get to where they were.

 

[border]

No, that makes absolute fuck all sense. Starkiller is the Death Star x3, a weapon so ludicrously powerful cannot possibly be kept under wraps after everything they went through in the OT. The reason the Death Star was able to do what it wanted was because the Empire controlled everything, but after ROTJ the Republic took power.

#1: How did the First Order become even more powerful than the Empire ever was in the time since ROTJ? They gained a weapon that destroys multiple planets at once.

In the 1940's the USA had nuclear bombs that had to be dropped out of a slow-moving plane flying directly above its target. 30-40 years later, we have nuclear missiles that can be deployed from silos in the US or a submarine anywhere in the world, against any target we want, anywhere we want. Sound familiar? The progression of Death Star technology totally makes sense from a narrative standpoint, once you realize it's essentially the science fiction analog of nuclear arms. The Death Star was meant to tap into 70's/80's anxiety about megaweapons in the hands of our enemies. I don't think it needs to be explained away at all, but a competent writer could do so anyway.

 

[Chichikov]

That wasn't necessary in TES because we already knew the Empire's power was far reaching and beyond just the Death Star, they were established as the pre-eminent force in the galaxy. The First Order being a secret terrorist splinter group on the other hand makes no sense, their power equals or surpasses OT Empire if Starkiller is any indication.

I don't know, it probably could have been done better, and yeah, they could've done something other than "we're fighting space nazis yo", but that's an effective conceit that served the franchise well and if that's the direction you're going, it's better to spend as little time as possible to set it up. The crawl is the perfect place for that. That's what the first film did too.

 

[Oersted]

Factions of the Empire were still in control after RotJ. It wasn't all like "Oh hey we killed the Emperor now we can move in to Coruscant and you can't do anything about it"

While not mentioned in the movie but in other forms of media, which helps your point but for the sake of explanation, the planet(speculated to contain Kyber Crystals which are used to power the weapon) that became Starkiller is in unknown regions of space most likely out of the view of the Republic. The faction that left what was left of the Empire and later became the First Order took control of this planet. Now I personally don't know what they did to get a planet to become a super weapon but there were First Order sympathizers in the senate and maybe Imperial "treasures" helped hem get to where they were.

Is this canon? Just wondering.

 

[Xe4]

I mostly agree. It seems they wanted the resistance to be the little guys so fucking bad, but they had no idea how to write their way there. The entire existence of Starkiller Base and it destroying the Hosnian system is one of the most eyerolling plot points ever. The movie definitely takes a massive dip in quality the second half, even though the first half was great. Combine that with how badly the film wanted to be IV, and a lot of things A New Hope did better become readily apparent. For one, it actually made us care about the planet that was blown up by the way of Leia. I didn't even know what system was destroyed in VII, I thought it was Coruscant at first.

Still my 3rd favorite film of the 7, although 4 of them ain't anything to write home about.

 

[Madness]

Force Awakens was very poor narratively upon subsequent rewatches. Felt like a poor mans A New Hope. Luke 'Macguffin' Skywalker, Poe Dameron reappearance, Leia, Captain Phasma, and even Han Solo sort of ham fisted. Could have used another 15 or 20 minutes, especially with Han, Chewie, Rey and Finn to build up their relationships and story more. I put it behind the original trilogy and dare I say, after now watching Force Awakens 2 times in theatres and 5 times at home, barely ahead of the prequels.

 

[sphagnum]

Is this canon? Just wondering.

Yes.

 

[vaderise]

Everyone, go read SW: Bloodline novel. It does an amazing job explaining pre-TFA politics.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Everyone knows the Empire wouldn't just vanish, but we need to know why the rebels would be so braindead stupid as to not keep an eye on them until they fucking blow up 3 planets.

They were fighting the main force of The Empire and a portion of The Empire's forces booked it into unexplored regions of the galaxy.

Do people really have this much trouble understanding that space is gargantuan to the point that it's not possible to monitor everything and everyone?

 

[firehawk12]

We don't really know yet, other than that they got some amount of funding through controlling spice cartels and other organized crime rings. Starkiller may have been an Imperial project that they finished, but that's just speculation. It's highly likely that Starkiller is the planet Ilum, which was filled with kyber crystals and which the Empire was stripping in the Ahsoka novel which takes place 1 year after RotS (she saw from space that there were deep gashes in the planet - obviously they were mining for crystals for the Death Star, but what if they decided to just transform the planet?).

I hope they don't expect people to read the EU books just to find try to explain some of this stuff away. I'm sure it's fine if you're really into Star Wars, but it just makes the movies a bit nonsensical.

Like I assume there are novels epxlaining why Kylo abandoned his parents and went all emo sith?

Basically.

Remember how the Nazis got beaten and fascist ideology disappeared forever? Or when racism in America ended when Obama got elected? Me neither.

That's a strange analogy though. If you apply Star Wars logic to the real world, then that would mean that a group of Nazis dug tunnels under America and lived there for 30 years before detonating a nuke in Washington DC in the 70s.

You're not even talking about resistance fighters like the Japanese holdouts who fought battles after WW2 for decades in the jungle or people trying to spread information via resistance cells. This is a full fighting force with a WMD that can kill several planets at the same time.

 

[Chumley]

Factions of the Empire were still in control after RotJ. It wasn't all like "Oh hey we killed the Emperor now we can move in to Coruscant and you can't do anything about it"

While not mentioned in the movie but in other forms of media, which helps your point but for the sake of explanation, the planet(speculated to contain Kyber Crystals which are used to power the weapon) that became Starkiller is in unknown regions of space most likely out of the view of the Republic. The faction that left what was left of the Empire and later became the First Order took control of this planet. Now I personally don't know what they did to get a planet to become a super weapon but there were First Order sympathizers in the senate and maybe Imperial "treasures" helped hem get to where they were.

Covering this in TFA would have helped because I haven't seen this anywhere. Was it in one of the new novels or something?

 

[MHWilliams]

Everyone knows the Empire wouldn't just vanish, but we need to know why the rebels would be so braindead stupid as to not keep an eye on them until they fucking blow up 3 planets.

Look at our current democracy for an example.

Bureaucracy is what screwed up the Republic. And the same nonsense happened here. Leia was all "this is a problem" and they were like, "no, Wookies wanting to be nurses is the real problem!"

Covering this in TFA would have helped because I haven't seen this anywhere. Was it in one of the new novels or something?

Star Wars: Bloodline.

 

[RyanW]

Is this canon? Just wondering.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Starkiller_Base

Eh seems like I got the Kyber part wrong although I do remember speculation about it being Illum, a planet Jedi go to for their Kyber Crystals. Guess I just made that canon in my head

 

[Chumley]

They were fighting the main force of The Empire and a portion of The Empire's forces booked it into unexplored regions of the galaxy.

Do people really have this much trouble understanding that space is gargantuan to the point that it's not possible to monitor everything and everyone?

Luke knew exactly where Yoda was by communing with the force. Believing he would be able to figure out where a cataclysmic super weapon is among the galaxy is not a stretch, especially with how powerful he was in ROTJ.

 

[Tookay]

JJ and Kasdan's deliberate attempt to avoid the prequel's dose of politics created a mess where the political situation is simultaneously over-complicated (there's a New Republic and they fund a Resistance but whatever the New Republic's dead now) and too simplistic (another small band of rebels fighting Space Nazis).

It feels like a massive waste of potential of the post-ROTJ era.

 

[Generic Power Ranger]

it does kind of make it feel like everything that happened in EPs 4-6 means shit all and the galaxy is in the same spot it was before.

This so much.

Besides the lack of exposition this was probably my biggest issue with the film. It makes episode 4-6 and everything that happens in them completely pointless, which sucks.

 

[Jest Chillin]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Starkiller_Base

Eh seems like I got the Kyber part wrong although I do remember speculation about it being Illum, a planet Jedi go to for their Kyber Crystals. Guess I just made that canon in my head

It was widely speculated to be Illum for decent reasons. Something to do with Ahsoka witnessing Illum being mined. It's a reasonable theory.

 

[molnizzle]

This so much.

Besides the lack of exposition this was probably my biggest issue with the film. It makes episode 4-6 and everything that happens in them completely pointless, which sucks.

We're gonna get new Star Wars movies every other year now with these new characters in this new era. You don't really think they're gonna stop at IX, do you? Episodes 4-6 kind of are pointless now in the grand scheme of things. TFA was basically a reboot.

In any case, as has been mentioned already, there are novels that do a great job of setting the stage for the current state of the Star Wars galaxy. It's actually far more developed and interconnected than any other time pre-Disney. They just use the screen time to focus on what people want to see on the screen, which is smart. They're not repeating Lucas' mistakes with the prequels. Nerds like me are just gonna read the books anyway, I already fucking know the deal. lol

 

[Jest Chillin]

Luke knew exactly where Yoda was by communing with the force. Believing he would be able to figure out where a cataclysmic super weapon is among the galaxy is not a stretch, especially with how powerful he was in ROTJ.

Luke finding a Jedi Master through the force is pretty different than using the force to find a big machine.

"That's not how The Force works" -Han Solo

 

[Blargonaut]

Yes.

Honestly, they should have gone the route SWTOR did. Star Wars OT was WWII in Space, this new trilogy should have been the Cold War in space. Easy Setup:

The Rebel Alliance, now the New Republic, did not totally defeat the Empire but pushed them back far enough and declared a truce. New Republic has there worlds, Empire has their worlds, each side is secretly planning for the next war with the other to wipe them out for good. Then you could have proxy wars and ethical dilemmas about the New Republic as the depths they are willing to go to gain the upper hand against the Empire pushes more level headed individuals, like Luke, away.

hell fuckin' absolutely.

said it right after I left the cinema:

I still stand by my deepest fanfic desire of the First Order being the Imperial equivalent of a rogue nuclear submarine group of economical ship-loving planet-haters, rather than the tired historical reenactment enthusiasts that they apparently are

We could have had The Hunt for Red October in space

story could've been that, in the decades passed, the New Republic has been systematically rooting out the nigh-defeated Imperial remnants across the galaxy; most have been crushed, some have surrendered, some have defected and the rest are on the run, waging guerrilla warfare on the New Republic

Kylo Ren, who ran away from his parents to join the Imperial remnants out of his Dark Side fanboyism for grandpa Vader, has been missing for years but suddenly Leia and Han get a message from him out of nowhere that he wants to come back. He was with a cabal called the First Order and he commandeered a ship full of like-minded defectors to get away from them and oops that's all he can say before the holo-line is cut off

cue politically delicate, galaxy-spanning mission with Leia, Han and Chewie onboard the Millennium Falcon, to both find Kylo and get him back and also find out what the First Order is

on the way; we get Finn, a Stormtrooper defector, Rey, a mysterious stowaway aboard the Millennium Falcon (mysteriously compelled by the Force to stowaway, ooo mysterious), Poe, a once highly trusted agent of the former Rebellion and his droid sidekick BB8, added to the party

The rest of the movie is discovering who these characters are and their motivations, who can be trusted and who can't, especially inside the confines of the Millennium Falcon as they go about their planet/locale-hopping space mission

And in the end, when they finally track Kylo down and confront him, Kylo reveals it was all a ploy, trap, etc. because he's been swayed by the Dark Side and is all First Order now, kills Han, blah blah etc. etc.

and the First Order superweapon is NOT fucking Starkiller Base or anything Death Star-like; instead, it's revealed that the First Order is actually a crack fleet of Super Star Destroyers manned by the most veteran and zealous survivors of the Empire (the "rogue nuclear submarine fleet"), and as the final climactic scene we get a taste of their badassness when they warp in over that not-Coruscant planet and show off some former Imperial glory as we watch them utterly waste cities and armies for 15 mins screentime of Star Wars evil weapons tech porn to show how bad they are like never seen before with the power of modern CGI. Leia et al. arrive in the Falcon and desperately try to rally everyone left but can't and fail. The final battle scene is a handful of First Order Super Star Destroyers towing the planet's moon across with super tractor beams as they use the tides it generates to create a super-flood that finishes off the surface

Leia et al. are crushed, flee, how will they and the New Republic ever fight this threat, sequel is set up

Imperial remnants watch this on the news and are convinced they still have a chance, but the defectors are horrified, Finn included; he goes off to try and convince other defectors that there's still hope for the New Republic. We'll get to see him interact with other former Imperials in the sequel, get their POVs

Rey steals the Millennium Falcon in the chaos of the aftermath, and jets off to who-knows-where oh look it's Luke there's the same stinger but better set-up in my mind

same story beats we got in FA, but executed in a far better, plot-conducive setting


yeah, a Cold War-esque narrative would've embraced the new characters perfectly





but instead we got this ass of a setting

IMO

 

[Chumley]

Luke finding a Jedi Master through the force is pretty different than using the force to find a big machine.

"That's not how The Force works" -Han Solo

A big machine that Kylo Ren, a force user, was on.

 

[Afrocious]

I agree. Still better than Rogue One though.

 

[Jest Chillin]

A big machine that Kylo Ren, a force user, was on.

He isn't actually on Starkiller Base until after he captures Rey
Before that, he's been away searching for Luke.

It really doesn't seem like you gave much attention to the details.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

I liked Plinkett's different take on it, where the republic constructs the death star out of hubris, to squash the first order who are kind of a joke at that point, until the first order manages to seize control over it and tip the scales.

 

[vaderise]

The current state of the Galaxy, and why it's in this shape after Rebels victory has an explanation and it's rational, killing lots of arguements.
After the defeat of Empire in ROTJ, The New Republic is formed along with the new senate. Senate consists of two major parties: Publicists and Centrists. The problem is a huge chunk of Centrists are Empire sympathizers and the big players in Centrists party create conspiracies to empower The First Order. Eventually First Order becomes much stronger and Centrists depart from the Galactic Senate hence TFO becomes a prominent force in the Galaxy.
By that time Leia, seeing how ineffective the Galactic Senate is to all of the stuff happening around, leaves her position and forms the Resistance.

 

[Alienous]

It makes you wonder how they're supposed to defeat the First Order now. Blow up their toys, wait 30 years, watch them wipe out planets, blow up their toys (...)?

Following the Empire being Space Nazi's you'd expect the 'First Order' to be Space Neo Nazi's - pitiful but dangerous extremists, not a clone of the Empire. They should not be a well-functioning formidable military force - with a clear hierarchy and polished uniforms - the Republic should have stopped them from ever regaining that might.

 

[Seesaw15]

A big machine that Kylo Ren, a force user, was on.

Luke's been gone for a good 10-15 years at the start of TFA how is he supposed to help?

 

[RevenWolf]

Luke knew exactly where Yoda was by communing with the force. Believing he would be able to figure out where a cataclysmic super weapon is among the galaxy is not a stretch, especially with how powerful he was in ROTJ.

He sure did, good thing a dead Jedi literally told Luke where the most powerful of the Jedi was. Btw when did yoda move to starkiller base? Or was there some other Jedi master there at the time?

And Ren being on star killer? How do you know he was there all the time? And why would ren announce his presence through the force? Vader could barely sense obiwant on death star 1 WHILE HE WAS ON IT.

 

[Hellwarden]

Seriously if there's another Death Star or similar design in the next one, I'm tempted to say I'm just gonna be done with the franchise.

But what if there's like 10 death stars, and they all join together to make a giant death star mecha?

 

[J2 Cool]

It's a pretty conscientious "blunder". It's a stupid simple reset to Empire/Rebel setup, that really negates the actions of Ep4-6. Almosts makes me want to check out.

 

[vaderise]

It makes you wonder how they're supposed to defeat the First Order now. Blow up their toys, wait 30 years, watch them wipe out planets, blow up their toys (...)?

Following the Empire being Space Nazi's you'd expect the 'First Order' to be Space Neo Nazi's - pitiful but dangerous extremists, not a clone of the Empire. They should not be a well-functioning formidable military force - with a clear hierarchy and polished uniforms - the Republic should have stopped them from ever regaining that might.

The New Republic has a shitload of people that were against the new state of democracy. The Centrists party in the senate has a very dominant role and a big portion of them are nothing but Empire supporters.The thing about First Order is, a vast majority of it's army and officers don't know shit about the war against the Empire. First Order people witnessed The New Republic couldn't do shit about anything so they decided the hierarchy is the only way to run the galaxy. See how young TFO people are compared to Officers such as Grand Moff Tarkin. TFO is not the Empire and those people are not some young people playing in Empire dresses, from their perspective, forming a new dominant force in the Galaxy is necesarry and they're doing what's necesarry to achieve that. At all costs.

 

[Sblargh]

If you only watched A New Hope, how much information did you really get about the Empire? They're a seemingly evil totalitarian government that will kill civilians that get in their way.....they dissolved the Senate.....they have a big Death Star that can blow up planets and a mysterious emperor ruling over all. That's pretty much it. You barely knew anything about the Rebel Alliance either, other than they were against the Empire.

I think the First Order is about as well developed as the Empire is in ANH.

Except there it isn't important. ANH is about a space wizard leading a space farmer in an Adventure. The Empire is more scenery than plot.

TFA is, in part, about what's up with this mysterious death Cult with a superweapon. And then when it's over you still don't know who are these people.

The Empire wasn't an enigma, the first order is. It needs a better answer.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

TFA was great except when it came to world building, and then it completely falls apart. The First Order is really, really, lame. Poe at one point refers to them as "thugs," but it's laughable that this organization capable of creating a planet sized Death Star 3 would get such a title. They are Empire 2 with no attempt at a distinction.

 

[Saucestin_Roast]

Yes.

Honestly, they should have gone the route SWTOR did. Star Wars OT was WWII in Space, this new trilogy should have been the Cold War in space. Easy Setup:

The Rebel Alliance, now the New Republic, did not totally defeat the Empire but pushed them back far enough and declared a truce. New Republic has there worlds, Empire has their worlds, each side is secretly planning for the next war with the other to wipe them out for good. Then you could have proxy wars and ethical dilemmas about the New Republic as the depths they are willing to go to gain the upper hand against the Empire pushes more level headed individuals, like Luke, away.

Annnnnnnnd now I really wish we had something closer to this for the new trilogy. OP, I also have similar issues with the First Order and how they've been handled. The whole thing just seems like it could've been written in a much tighter way.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

So all the leaders and stuff would've forgotten how they were keeping the empire under control with their massive army?

If they're constantly losing battles, they'd be losing man power, materials including leadership.

They'd also probably have to worry about mass revolts from tons of planets who are sick of Imperial occupation and mass desertion from their ranks.

Battle of Jakku is canon, and from what I read it was a devastating defeat for the Empire. I would imagine enough of those battles, and yea I'd the remnants would just be like the Rebellion Alliance.

Not canon anymore but i do remember post RoTJ, a lot of high level Imperial leaders pretty much just suck fuck it and became independent warlords.