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[Jest Chillin]

Well, if we approached this logically going by how other empires have reacted to this in the past, the Empire should have at least split up. I guess it didn't do that? Maybe I'm wrong, but its remnants instead rallied under TFO, which seems impossible under the circumstances, but let's say that was somehow logical.

Now what happened to the rebels and the Republic? From what I know, the new Republic apparantly never bothered to raise a sizable force in order to prevent the past from repeating itself. I guess the rebels dissolved and popped back up again later as the Resistance. With no official force to oppose TFO, this is how the events of Ep 7 even came to be. It doesn't make any sense. There is no reason for them to follow these principles when the Empire is still a threat. You somehow have to accept that the newly risen republic settled with what it had and didn't mind the enemies that where still at its doorstep (united or not), all the while actively taking a pacifist stance. Basically unprecedented in history. I could understand if TFO came out of nowhere with fleets and armies pulled out of its ass, but that is not how it was written. Well... except for Starkiller Base. Not sure who the hell funded that.

This is all conveniently skipped at the beginning of TFA and left up to other media to make sense of. But you don't even have to question it in detail or speculate about how events came to pass, the situation feels off even at first glance.

You are mistaken in your timeline.

As for no reason not to attack TFO before they build up, I don't know what to say other than it jas literally happened in real life. Bout 100 years ago.

Is it a bad move? Sure. Sometimes people or gov't or both makes bad moves.

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

They should have just been called The Empire, because that's what they are. There's literally nothing that differentiates the First Order from The Empire.

They're out of power; which is why it's not the Empire. They probably should've explained the politics a bit more in the movie, but I bet they were trying hard not to give people flashbacks to the PT and the endless politic talk there.

 

[.JayZii]

It makes sense that just blowing up the death star in Return of the Jedi wouldn't erase the Empire or their worldview from existence, but the way it was handled felt awkward and ill defined. I'm still unclear of the politics of the Star Wars universe at this point. So did the rebels win and are the status quo now? Because they still seem to be in the rebellion role while the First Order still seem to be functioning like and have the funding of the Empire. Were the rebellion bad leaders who lost control over the situation after they "won" in the original trilogy, and civilizations all over the universe are joining the Empire 2.0 because they crave some stability? Maybe this was all in the opening title crawl and I just forgot.

 

[sphagnum]

Well, if we approached this logically going by how other empires have reacted to this in the past, the Empire should have at least split up. I guess it didn't do that? Maybe I'm wrong, but its remnants instead rallied under TFO, which seems impossible under the circumstances, but let's say that was somehow logical.

The Empire did split up, but all the factions were beaten by the New Republic. The individuals and parts of the fleet that didn't want to follow the Galactic Concordance signed after Jakku fled into the Unknown Regions and formed the First Order.

Now what happened to the rebels and the Republic? From what I know, the new Republic apparantly never bothered to raise a sizable force in order to prevent the past from repeating itself. I guess the rebels dissolved and popped back up again later as the Resistance. With no official force to oppose TFO, this is how the events of Ep 7 even came to be. It doesn't make any sense. There is no reason for them to follow these principles when the Empire is still a threat. You somehow have to accept that the newly risen republic settled with what it had and didn't mind the enemies that where still at its doorstep (united or not), all the while actively taking a pacifist stance. Basically unprecedented in history. I could understand if TFO came out of nowhere with fleets and armies pulled out of its ass, but that is not how it was written. Well... except for Starkiller Base. Not sure who the hell funded that.

The Rebellion transformed into the New Republic a few months after Endor, but after Jakku whoever was in control of the remaining "official" Empire in the core (either Amedda or Sloane) signed the Concordance, which ended the war. The Empire was banned from building new weapons or recruiting new Stormtroopers and forced to pay huge reparations. Over time it faded away as member systems switched to the NR for economic reasons.

The NR was more decentralized than the Empire because Mothma feared a strong central government. The military was drawn down after the Concordance and member systems provided their own defense with planetary defense forces. The NR is more like the EU or UN than the US, and its military is more like a peacekeeper force. When the First Order emerged a few years before TFA, most people were wary of starting another conflict, probably especially since there were a number of worlds with Centrist (a political party that wanted a strong central government and was packed with FO supporters in secret) sympathies. The chancellor, Villecham, wanted to just let the FO have its region of space as long as they abided by the Galactic Concordance, which they claimed to do. Leia saw through this and established the Resistance with the help of members of the old Rebellion after she was shunned by the Senate and the public for the revelation that she was Vader's daughter and the perception that she was a warmonger trying to start a conflict. The FO meanwhile had been secretly building new forces over 30 years with money funneled through crime syndicates and shadow corporations, plus secret deals with Kuat and other sympathizers.

 

[Turnip Truck]

I finally watched TFA for the very first time last weekend. I've had the movie for over a year, just didn't bother to take the shrink wrap off. My final impression was, "Oh, yet another death star. Disney remade "A New Hope. But not very well".

The problem I had with it was that it did very little to explain the political situation, or even the characters. I felt A New Hope was a great story in that it gave enough information to set the stage so far as the politics, but focused on a set of rather believable characters caught up together in an adventure. And as much as it pains me to admit it, I absolutely loved the political intrigue and complexity in the prequel series. If it weren't for the stupid midi-chlorions and the vomitous teen angst in Attack of the Clones (though the clone battle against the droid army at the end of that movie was top notch), that series at least made sense to me.

The Force Awakens however left too many holes. Who the hell is Snoke? What is The First Order and what is their motivation? It seems like the New Republic was the actual primary galactic government, so why would their army be called the resistance and not have a more official sounding role like the army of the republic? A name like Resistance suggests a rebellion against a ruling government, not a defense force. I really wasn't that impressed. I enjoyed the action and the acting, especially Finn's character. But the movie left too many points unaddressed to make for a satisfying story.

 

[sphagnum]

The Force Awakens however left too many holes. Who the hell is Snoke? What is The First Order and what is their motivation? It seems like the New Republic was the actual primary galactic government, so why would their army be called the resistance and not have a more official sounding role like the army of the republic? A name like Resistance suggests a rebellion against a ruling government, not a defense force. I really wasn't that impressed. I enjoyed the action and the acting, especially Finn's character. But the movie left too many points unaddressed to make for a satisfying story.

See my above posts. Lucasfilm is going hard on treating the books as important parts of the canon rather than expendable cash ins.

 

[Turnip Truck]

See my above posts. Lucasfilm is going hard on treating the books as important parts of the canon rather than expendable cash ins.

Unfortunately, that means for those of us who have chosen not to read the books, the new movies are going to be an incomplete experience. That seems like a somewhat risky approach to take. Yes, there are plenty of Star Wars fanatics who pop a woody every time something new comes out in the SW universe, regardless of whether it is a movie, book, cartoon, comic, or speculative fan fiction. But for the mainstream moviegoer who doesn't bother with this stuff, tough luck.

There are plenty of examples of well made movies that left things out from the books (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Bourne, etc.) but had a relatively complete story and enjoyable movie experience regardless (Deathly Hallows part 1 as a possible exception). But SW:TFA left me unsatisfied.

 

[horkrux]

The Empire did split up, but all the factions were beaten by the New Republic. The individuals and parts of the fleet that didn't want to follow the Galactic Concordance signed after Jakku fled into the Unknown Regions and formed the First Order.



The Rebellion transformed into the New Republic a few months after Endor, but after Jakku whoever was in control of the remaining "official" Empire in the core (either Amedda or Sloane) signed the Concordance, which ended the war. The Empire was banned from building new weapons or recruiting new Stormtroopers and forced to pay huge reparations. Over time it faded away as member systems switched to the NR for economic reasons.

The NR was more decentralized than the Empire because Mothma feared a strong central government. The military was drawn down after the Concordance and member systems provided their own defense with planetary defense forces. The NR is more like the EU or UN than the US, and its military is more like a peacekeeper force. When the First Order emerged a few years before TFA, most people were wary of starting another conflict, probably especially since there were a number of worlds with Centrist (a political party that wanted a strong central government and was packed with FO supporters in secret) sympathies. The chancellor, Villecham, wanted to just let the FO have its region of space as long as they abided by the Galactic Concordance, which they claimed to do. Leia saw through this and established the Resistance with the help of members of the old Rebellion after she was shunned by the Senate and the public for the revelation that she was Vader's daughter and the perception that she was a warmonger trying to start a conflict. The FO meanwhile had been secretly building new forces over 30 years with money funneled through crime syndicates and shadow corporations, plus secret deals with Kuat and other sympathizers.

Thanks for this! I wish more of this had ended up in the movie...

You are mistaken in your timeline.

As for no reason not to attack TFO before they build up, I don't know what to say other than it jas literally happened in real life. Bout 100 years ago.

Is it a bad move? Sure. Sometimes people or gov't or both makes bad moves.

Thanks for saying I'm mistaken without correcting me.

I'm not talking about them not attacking TFO, I'm talking about having no force to protect themselves from something they have just defeated as well as having no force to actually enforce their treaty. No, this has not happened before. The Allies i.e. might have watched Germany grow stronger, but it's not like they were themselves powerless. They just didn't care at first. The NR wouldn't have had any reason to act like this, since it was raised on the very foundations of the former Empire.

 

[psychodino]

yes, but i highly doubt they will explain how the first order rose to power.

I've been thinking about it, and I've realized that just about every major problem I had with TFA's narrative has been linked to the existence of the First Order. Basically, a carbon copy of the Empire except their political position is super unclear. The First Order is responsible for:

1. The existence of a 3rd Death Star.
2. A series of planets being destroyed that we don't care about and took so much of the tension out of the movie. The bad guys killed billions of people and scored a major victory against the Republic... and it's treated like nothing.
3. Hux and Phasma being empty, lame characters with unclear relationships to Snoke.
4. The generally recycled plotline of an evil "empire" looking for a droid.
5. The fact that a janitor knows the details of a super weapon, and the weakness to it is very similar to the old one.

And the worst of it all is that it doomed the next two movies into being yet another story where they have to take down another evil empire. It pigeonholed the franchise into a very similar place, and that completely sucks.

What the First Order should have been is a terrorist cell that is consisting of the Knights of Ren and a few mercenaries (Phasma could have been one of them) with Snoke pulling the strings. They could have been working in the shadows to destabilize the Republic and spark another civil war, and then seizing power in the chaos. It's different from before, and much like the old Star Wars, it's relevant to people's contemporary fears. What we got instead was just the villains of "A New Hope", but super vague and unclear for some reason.

 

[jonezer4]

Maybe but the story is Kylo. He's much more fleshed out already than Vader maybe ever was in the OT? Interested to see where his arc goes. The FO stuff is really just window dressing i suppose

This is a really solid point. The politics may underdeveloped or rehashed in TFA, but throw in a solid character as they did, and I don't really give a shit.

It's almost like the exact opposite of the prequels, where you had an almost nauseating focus on politics, and the characters were all complete garbage.

It's probably possible to do both well, but if you have to choose one, I'll take a solid character any day.

 

[daveo42]

I was going to try to validate why things may have ended up the way they are between TFO and The Resistance and where the old Empire/Republic/Senate fits in, but fuck it. Basically we need someone to come in with an in-between canon novel to clear it all up because it doesn't really make all that much sense.

I mean, the only real deal here was that Starkiller Base was a hollowed out planet at least and not built from scratch, like Death Star #1 and #2. Snoke's a real big idiot tho if he thought another Death Star weapon was a great idea.

 

[Adam_Vania]

And the worst of it all is that it doomed the next two movies into being yet another story where they have to take down another evil empire. It pigeonholed the franchise into a very similar place, and that completely sucks.

yeah it's gonna suck when they make another 2 billion dollars pressing that nostalgia button yet again.

lol @ everyone concerned story point X doesn't make sense, the films market themselves now.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

The Republic was secretly funding the Resistance to keep the the First Order off balance, but weren't aware they had the capacity to build a super weapon, so we're fine with a big ol' cold war for the time being, with guerilla fighters waging a small scale proxy war.

The movie itself could have done a much better job explaining this. Makes sense not to get bogged down in political maneuvering like the prequels did, but seriously, a couple of sentences on exactly what you said above, plus explaining the significance of the Hosnian system, would have been very welcome in the movie.

 

[CloudyTuba]

They should have just been called The Empire, because that's what they are. There's literally nothing that differentiates the First Order from The Empire.

They are from the same organization but they are no longer an empire, so that's sort of important. Like, if you got fired from your job, you couldn't keep calling yourself Head of Marketing no matter how mad it made you.

I like to shy away from EU explanations because what is demonstrated in the movie is most important to the viewer, but it's also been explained in books that the actual Imperial government surrendered and that the First Order is a splinter group that refused to accept it.

Since they intentionally avoided a lot of exposition in TFA which had its pros and cons, I'm hoping they elaborate more on these topics in ep8 to strengthen the foundation of the trilogy. We don't need a whole movie about trade disputes, just a couple lines of clarification. I imagine Luke will drop some sort of exposition bomb once he and Rey start talking.

 

[Hoodbury]

I finally watched TFA for the very first time last weekend. I've had the movie for over a year, just didn't bother to take the shrink wrap off. My final impression was, "Oh, yet another death star. Disney remade "A New Hope. But not very well".

The problem I had with it was that it did very little to explain the political situation, or even the characters. I felt A New Hope was a great story in that it gave enough information to set the stage so far as the politics, but focused on a set of rather believable characters caught up together in an adventure. And as much as it pains me to admit it, I absolutely loved the political intrigue and complexity in the prequel series. If it weren't for the stupid midi-chlorions and the vomitous teen angst in Attack of the Clones (though the clone battle against the droid army at the end of that movie was top notch), that series at least made sense to me.

The Force Awakens however left too many holes. Who the hell is Snoke? What is The First Order and what is their motivation? It seems like the New Republic was the actual primary galactic government, so why would their army be called the resistance and not have a more official sounding role like the army of the republic? A name like Resistance suggests a rebellion against a ruling government, not a defense force. I really wasn't that impressed. I enjoyed the action and the acting, especially Finn's character. But the movie left too many points unaddressed to make for a satisfying story.

I agree with what you're saying but I'm just hoping it's because we're looking back at the previous movies as 3 movies each with more time to explain things as opposed to so far we just have the 1 new movie so far. Hopefully after all 3 new movies are released and we've digested them as a group, things will make more sense.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Thanks for saying I'm mistaken without correcting me.

I'm not talking about them not attacking TFO, I'm talking about having no force to protect themselves from something they have just defeated as well as having no force to actually enforce their treaty. No, this has not happened before. The Allies i.e. might have watched Germany grow stronger, but it's not like they were themselves powerless. They just didn't care at first. The NR wouldn't have had any reason to act like this, since it was raised on the very foundations of the former Empire.

I'm was, and am, on mobile and the specifics have been detailed multiple times in the thread. That's why I didn't explain it all.

The New Republic wasnt built on the foundations of The Empire, it was built with Rebel resources and founded by Rebel leaders and former members of the previous Senate. The Republic, both New and Old, functions more like the UN than like a central Gov't. The biggest change is the former Republic had a centralized mimitary and the newer Republic opted not to.