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[truly101]

What I'm suggesting is that it's a core title because it was appreciated and supported by core gamers - it wasn't something that survived simply on casuals, though they've added a fair bit to its success over the years and especially once the DS version hit.

Well every just about every game that has had crossover/ mainstream success has been supported initially by the enthusiast gamer and still has a base of support there, from GTA, Halo, FF, Mario and Zelda. Sure, you'l have shit like 50 Cent Bulletproof slip into the NPD top 20, but more often than not, the top 20 is made of games that have mainsteam support and a hardcore fanbase.

 

[3rdman]

Then they need to go back to the PC. The technology in the current consoles is already pretty old.

Well, at that point we start treading on piracy issues and such.

 

[Vinci]

Well every just about every game that has had crossover/ mainstream success has been supported initially by the enthusiast gamer and still has a base of support there, from GTA, Halo, FF, Mario and Zelda. Sure, you'l have shit like 50 Cent Bulletproof slip into the NPD top 20, but more often than not, the top 20 is made of games that have mainsteam support and a hardcore fanbase.

The Sims?

 

[rohlfinator]

This is what I'm curious about: What attributes make it a core game?

I'm not going to get into a discussion over the semantics of "core" vs "casual", since those never lead anywhere, but I would say the controls alone are complicated enough (at least in GTA3 and its derivatives) to rule out the possibility that it was developed with a casual audience as its primary focus.

It's the only remotely measurable criteria after all. Unless you can give me an accurate definition for a 'core game.'

How is it measurable in any way? If we don't even have agreed-upon definitions of "core" and "casual", how are you suggesting that we have accurate statistics on the makeup of any particular console's userbase?

The Sims?

You're kidding yourself if you don't think The Sims had significant support from core gamers at the beginning.

 

[Vinci]

I'm not going to get into a discussion over the semantics of "core" vs "casual", since those never lead anywhere, but I would say the controls alone are complicated enough (at least in GTA3 and its derivatives) to rule out the possibility that it was developed with a casual audience as its primary focus.

So Tetris isn't a core game since it only uses the D-Pad and at least one button?

How is it measurable in any way? If we don't even have agreed-upon definitions of "core" and "casual", how are you suggesting that we have accurate statistics on the makeup of any particular console's userbase?

By those who identify themselves as such? I've never heard someone I would consider 'casual,' say my parents for example, label themselves as a gamer.

 

[SturokBGD]

I have no desire to buy a Wii and as long as developers regard it as a toy, there is little reason to bother buying it.?

That's a little... narrow. Sorry. I'm not angry about anything, but I think it's a fair thing to say that the likes of Todd Howard and Mark Rein do not speak for all developers, and they certainly don't speak for all gamers. I mean, the passion of, say, the guys at 2D Boy... that's not for everyone. But it's not for no-one, either. If that makes any sense.

There's a sizable gap in the Wii line-up, that's for sure, and it's the kind of hole a Todd Howard or Mark Rein could fill. But that's not the whole picture. Not even close.

 

[truly101]

The Sims?

Sure, do you think the sims all the sudden was a runaway casual smash out of the gate? The people I knew who had played the Sims years ago (was it back in 99?) were PC gamers, it spreads from the enthusiast to their friends, then to their friends, etc.

 

[Fewr]

Any comparisons to Punky Brewster or He Man yet?

 

[Vinci]

Sure, do you think the sims all the sudden was a runaway casual smash out of the gate? The people I knew who had played the Sims years ago (was it back in 99?) were PC gamers, it spreads from the enthusiast to their friends, then to their friends, etc.

I could see that, though I think there's some reason to question it due to the imprint of PCs on households. It's not like a console where you just happen to have one: The assumption being that someone heard about the Sims through some method, thought it sounded interesting, and bought it since they already had a PC. This is pretty different from someone buying a console that is strictly about playing games.

I see your point however.

 

[rohlfinator]

By those who identify themselves as such? I've never heard someone I would consider 'casual,' say my parents for example, label themselves as a gamer.

Care to explain how you extrapolated that into meaningful statistics?

 

[Vinci]

Care to explain how you extrapolated that into meaningful statistics?

By assumption mostly. I assume that anyone who owned a N64 in Japan during Animal Crossing's original release was a gamer; same with anyone in NA who bought a GameCube. Since those were consoles designed strictly to play games with: If you aren't a gamer, you're highly unlikely to buy them.

 

[truly101]

I could see that, though I think there's some reason to question it due to the imprint of PCs on households. It's not like a console where you just happen to have one: The assumption being that someone heard about the Sims through some method, thought it sounded interesting, and bought it since they already had a PC. This is pretty different from someone buying a console that is strictly about playing games.

I see your point however.

Keep in mind that most people that have PCs seeking entertainment would get all they would need from Solitaire and Minesweeper. The idea of maintaining a human character in a game where you have to make sure they eat, sleep, pee, go to work etc, sounds more like a chore than a game. It would take an early adopter who to show them how it works and that its actually fun.

 

[rohlfinator]

By assumption mostly.

Oh. Okay.

 

[Vinci]

Oh. Okay.

To be honest, this whole casual/core/hardcore stuff just frustrates me. It's so insanely stupid since it's difficult, if not impossible, to properly define. It's basically, "It's casual if I point at it and say it's casual," and there's all these goalposts that keep being moved. GTA3 was at one point considered casual, now it's core.

It's just ... stupid.

 

[truly101]

By assumption mostly. I assume that anyone who owned a N64 in Japan during Animal Crossing's original release was a gamer; same with anyone in NA who bought a GameCube. Since those were consoles designed strictly to play games with: If you aren't a gamer, you're highly unlikely to buy them.

Why would you buy any console if not to play games on them? Wouldn't that make everyone who owns a game console a gamer by default. And please do not resort to the "but teh PS2 has teh DVDS!!!!!!!!!!!" In October of 2000, when the PS2 was released at $299, you could buy a good stand alone DVD player at Wal-Mart for $199. I know this 1st hand because I was with my college roomate when he bought an LG DVD player at Wal-Mart for $199 that September.

 

[Vinci]

Why would you buy any console if not to play games on them? Wouldn't that make everyone who owns a game console a gamer by default.

True enough. Again, read the above. I'm just growing exhausted with all this 'casuals' and 'core' nonsense that seems to be at the heart of every conversation about the Wii or anything remotely related to Nintendo or any game that doesn't feature mass violence.

 

[poppabk]

Any comparisons to Punky Brewster or He Man yet?

I think you were looking for strawberry shortcake. The question is which episode of "I Love the __'s" will the next Wii is a kiddy fad comparison come from?
Is the Wii a modern day
- Garbage Pail Kids sticker
- Lite Brite
- Baby alive
- Simon
- Rubiks cube
- Pound puppy
- Rollerblades
- Beanie baby

 

[rohlfinator]

To be honest, this whole casual/core/hardcore stuff just frustrates me. It's so insanely stupid since it's difficult, if not impossible, to properly define. It's basically, "It's casual if I point at it and say it's casual," and there's all these goalposts that keep being moved. GTA3 was at one point considered casual, now it's core.

It's just ... stupid.

Well, we agree on one thing.

And I agree that the "violence = core" argument is dumb as well.

But I have a hard time rationalizing "Animal Crossing = core" and "The Sims = casual" when their gameplay is so similar.

 

[GDGF]

I think you were looking for strawberry shortcake. The question is which episode of "I Love the __'s" will the next Wii is a kiddy fad comparison come from?
Is the Wii a modern day
- Garbage Pail Kids sticker
- Lite Brite
- Baby alive
- Simon
- Rubiks cube
- Pound puppy
- Rollerblades
- Beanie baby

I miss the hell out of Garbage Pail Kids stickers/cards. The oldschool ones, not the newish remake crap.

 

[Oblivion]

so where does a softcore gamer stand in all this

 

[vag 2.0]

 

[pvpness]

True enough. Again, read the above. I'm just growing exhausted with all this 'casuals' and 'core' nonsense that seems to be at the heart of every conversation about the Wii or anything remotely related to Nintendo or any game that doesn't feature mass violence.

Seems like a lot of people this generation conceal the word kiddie with casual. For me; Hardcore = on average more gaming than sleeping. Casual = Everyone else.

What pisses me off about dev attitudes like this is that I like a lot of these devs and come next generation we're gonna have to go through all the motion growing pains all over again, but with them this time. Ugh.

 

[Drkirby]

http://alc.law.unimelb.edu.au/images/TimLindsey_2007_PR_Shot1.jpg[/img[/QUOTE]
What the fuck? What does this even mean? And why such a large image?

 

[Christine]

But I have a hard time rationalizing "Animal Crossing = core" and "The Sims = casual" when their gameplay is so similar.

It actually isn't. I don't know that this is particularly relevant to the point you're arguing, but aside from the "domicile sim" premise the games have very little in common.

EDIT: 2011 pixels is too tall for a forum post. Really.

 

[Opiate]

This conversation is just appaling. No one has any hard data to support their positions -- as freely admitted -- and then to further complicate the mess, there is no set definition of the terms "core" and "casual" and I can see the definitions shifting slightly just in this thread.

A discussion about imprecisely defined terms supported with no data. It drives me crazy, it does.

Next up: is Gears of War "cool" or "badass?" Poster argues that Gears of War was never cool, and that probably many or perhaps most "cool" gamers are busy playing Portal or Mirror's Edge. Or so he possibly assumes. Everyone knows that Gears of War is first and foremost a "badass" game.

 

[truly101]

True enough. Again, read the above. I'm just growing exhausted with all this 'casuals' and 'core' nonsense that seems to be at the heart of every conversation about the Wii or anything remotely related to Nintendo or any game that doesn't feature mass violence.

Well see this is where the "3rd parties hate the Wii" argument comes back full circle. If you can put out a game like GTA or Final Fantasy or Zelda, that is initially embraced by the enthusiast but has that "certain something" that your more mainstream audience could also enjoy, that was a formula for a hit on a game console. It didn't always work (see all the *insert game here* is underrated threads on GAF) but for the most part, thats how you got a blockbuster. Right now, I think that 3rd parties are skeptical that they can achieve the same sort of success on the Wii because the user base is more diverse than its ever been. What we have now is:
1. Nintendo made games sell well on the Wii. no surprise there, nintendo 1st party games almost always sell well on their own systems, few exceptions
2. Most of the "notable" 3rd party releases have been ports of games on earlier systems, some of which have seen moderate success, others have bombed
3. Other 3rd party games like Zack & Wiki bombed hard despite being targeted at the "hardcore" audience.

So what's it going to take? It'll take someone releasing a major "hardcore" title on the Wii as the lead platform. Graphics aside, how do you think something like RE5 or even FF would do if they were developed and released primarily for the Wii? Thats what the system needs to have happen before others jump onboard.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

A discussion about imprecisely defined terms supported with no data. It drives me crazy, it does.

Already got my fill of that this week from RebelFM.

 

[Link]

What pisses me off about dev attitudes like this is that I like a lot of these devs and come next generation we're gonna have to go through all the motion growing pains all over again, but with them this time. Ugh.

Let's not kid ourselves, regardless of where Nintendo falls next gen, we'll be having this exact same discussion five years from now, only the excuses will change.

"Sony and MS knew how to bring waggle to the hardcore, and that we can get behind!"

"We view the Wii2 as a modern Tickle Me Elmo."

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

Let's not kid ourselves, regardless of where Nintendo falls next gen, we'll be having this exact same discussion five years from now, only the excuses will change.

"Sony and MS knew how to bring waggle to the hardcore, and that we can get behind!"

"We view the Wii2 as a modern Tickle Me Elmo."

I want the modern equivalent of the TMNT Pizza Launcher.

 

[Azelover]

They're just trying to pigeonhole it out of interest. Of course to an extent that isn't necessary, but since it's still selling they keep going for it, because they have to.

Even if it's close to it, I don't think their genuine opinions necessarily play too much of a role here.

 

[Link]

They're just trying to pigeonhole it out of interest. Of course to an extent that isn't necessary, but since it's still selling they keep going for it, because they have to.

Even if it's close to it, I don't think their genuine opinions necessarily play too much of a role here.

I think it's both, really. They don't like it, and want to avoid developing for it.

 

[vag 2.0]

I don't know about core or any of that shit but the Wii allows poor people to play games and that's just not right.

 

[pvpness]

Let's not kid ourselves, regardless of where Nintendo falls next gen, we'll be having this exact same discussion five years from now, only the excuses will change.

"Sony and MS knew how to bring waggle to the hardcore, and that we can get behind!"

"We view the Wii2 as a modern Tickle Me Elmo."

I lol'd because it's funny and I shed a tear because it's true. Oh well. As long as the industry moves forward I don't care who the kids think is the bestest.

 

[Vinci]

This conversation is just appaling. No one has any hard data to support their positions -- as freely admitted -- and then to further complicate the mess, there is no set definition of the terms "core" and "casual" and I can see the definitions shifting slightly just in this thread.

A discussion about imprecisely defined terms supported with no data. It drives me crazy, it does.

Next up: is Gears of War "cool" or "badass?" Poster argues that Gears of War was never cool, and that probably many or perhaps most "cool" gamers are busy playing Portal or Mirror's Edge. Or so he possibly assumes. Everyone knows that Gears of War is first and foremost a "badass" game.

My apologies, but that's the most frustrating thing about this gen. Since when did this whole 'casual' and 'core' nonsense take on such massive importance? Why the hell can't they just be 'games'? Some are for you, some for me, some for my aunt, and some for your little sister. You needn't classify them in some way in order to dismiss entire segments or styles or concepts inherently.

It's stupid.

 

[SturokBGD]

Right now, I think that 3rd parties are skeptical that they can achieve the same sort of success on the Wii because the user base is more diverse than its ever been.

I dunno. Short of inventing a time machine, there's no way to prove this, but I think it's a right place/right time kind of thing. Imaging the "HD" version of GTA4 never existed... imagine there was no GTA on 360 or PS3. Imagine instead that Rockstar built a ground-up Wii version of GTA and called that, whatever it may have been like, GTA4. You'd be talking about a pretty damn hot property.

This is actually why I think RE4 was so successful, it got attention that it probably wouldn't have normally because it launched on such an unusual choice of platform.

However, that didn't happen, and can't happen now, R* and Nintendo missed out. That boat has sailed and only comes back for garbage "what if?" posts like this one.

 

[pakkit]

I don't know about core or any of that shit but the Wii allows poor people to play games and that's just not right.

:lol

 

[Link]

My apologies, but that's the most frustrating thing about this gen. Since when did this whole 'casual' and 'core' nonsense take on such massive importance? Why the hell can't they just be 'games'? Some are for you, some for me, some for my aunt, and some for your little sister. You needn't classify them in some way in order to dismiss entire segments or styles or concepts inherently.

It's stupid.

I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not interested in games that also appeal to adults and kids. Get that shit outta here!

 

[Eteric Rice]

I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not interested in games that also appeal to adults and kids. Get that shit outta here!

Sarcasm?

Because, you know... Super Mario Galaxy qualifies there...

 

[Link]

Yes, sarcasm. Not obvious enough?

 

[poppabk]

So what's it going to take? It'll take someone releasing a major "hardcore" title on the Wii as the lead platform. Graphics aside, how do you think something like RE5 or even FF would do if they were developed and released primarily for the Wii? Thats what the system needs to have happen before others jump onboard.

My guess is that we are slowly seeing the acceptance of the major third parties as we speak. The moderate success of COD:WAW and the runaway success of Guitar Hero spurs the release of Dead Space:Wii and a decent effort on RockBand 2. A few moderate successes of other downports along with at least one moderate success from Madworld, HOTD, the Conduit, Tenchu 4 or Deadly Creatures will result in the first major 3rd party exclusive western game since Red Steel being greenlit for Wii.

 

[Vinci]

I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not interested in games that also appeal to adults and kids. Get that shit outta here!

What I've noticed personally is that my taste in video games is as diverse as my taste in board games and toys. I love EVE Online and aspects of WoW; I like Wii Music and Rock Band. Just as I like Settlers of Catan and Puerto Rico, whilst still enjoying Monopoly and Life with the right folks; I like Blackjack and Rook; Uno and Mahjong. Or a frisbee and a Rubik's Cube.

I can classify those as separate but it doesn't negate any one of them in my opinion. They're all worth something and I get different experiences from each. What makes me sad is that I'm absolutely sure there are folks out there who only like one or two experiences and take all the rest for granted or dismiss them outright.

 

[HylianTom]

My guess is that we are slowly seeing the acceptance of the major third parties as we speak. The moderate success of COD:WAW and the runaway success of Guitar Hero spurs the release of Dead Space:Wii and a decent effort on RockBand 2. A few moderate successes of other downports along with at least one moderate success from Madworld, HOTD, the Conduit, Tenchu 4 or Deadly Creatures will result in the first major 3rd party exclusive western game since Red Steel being greenlit for Wii.

Japanese developers, perhaps.

But most Western developers, it seems, would rather line-up for unemployment benefits than develop for it.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Yes, sarcasm. Not obvious enough?

My meter has been on the fritz lately.

 

[Azelover]

I think it's both, really. They don't like it, and want to avoid developing for it.

Sure, I said even if it's close to it. I think their genuine opinions is likely not to reside exactly as far as they put it. May be close, but it's the interest most of all that's doing the speaking.

This value paradigm does not benefit them from a business standpoint at all. Therefore, as they're trying to pigeonhole it they have to go an extra step, separate from any true feelings necessarily. It's almost like a company line, this is how we're gonna do it, I know you dislike it in other ways but this is how we're gonna derail it.

Of course they're not gonna support it, but what they're saying particularly I don't believe should be taken seriously. Eventually I hope it will come to a point where it's not gonna be, but for now they have a total grip on you guys.

 

[Link]

I actually think their opinions are probably worse, but they keep it more civil when on the record.

 

[Vinci]

I actually think their opinions are probably worse, but they keep it more civil when on the record.

My guess? "What the fuck are we supposed to do with that <bleep> calculator??"

 

[HylianTom]

My guess? "What the fuck are we supposed to do with that <bleep> calculator??"

From how they talk of it, you wonder what they did in those dark, dark ages when the most powerful processor was a mere Pentium. The horror of developing with such shitty hardware..!

 

[poppabk]

Japanese developers, perhaps.

But most Western developers, it seems, would rather line-up for unemployment benefits than develop for it.

I'm talking about EA/Activision/Ubisoft where I am assuming that most people pretty much work on what they are told to work on.

 

[Kilrogg]

I don't know about core or any of that shit but the Wii allows poor people to play games and that's just not right.

:lol

@Vinci : for a start, you could stop using the words "hardcore" and "casual" yourself if you don't like them and don't believe they're apt words . That's what I do. Like Opiate, I think they're vague... So vague in fact that they're completely meaningless.

Crap, I used the words.

 

[Jokeropia]

2. Most of the "notable" 3rd party releases have been ports of games on earlier systems, some of which have seen moderate success, others have bombed

You're really selling RE4 short if you call it a "moderate success". Which are the "notable" games that bombed, btw?

3. Other 3rd party games like Zack & Wiki bombed hard despite being targeted at the "hardcore" audience.

Capcom mentioned it on a positive note in their Q3 2007 financial report. It's a very niche title and it's really not fair to claim that it bombed hard.