Support NeoGAF

[Dave Meltzer]

People are generally "let live in peace" when their actions AREN'T hurting anyone else. Buying the Xbox One actively fucks every other poster on neoGAF. It contributes toward pushing a philosophy that is going to destroy the industry forever. You may disagree with the notion that this is what it is doing, but almost everyone in the community disagrees as you can see by the extreme backlash (not that this means we're right and you're wrong, only that most people would vehemently suggest you are wrong). And I think anyone who calls themselves a "consumer" would generally be against such severe anti-consumer practices, unless they just hate themselves.

It isn't anti consumer unless the overall experience is negative for the consumer. For me, Steam is very much pro consumer, because the experience I have had over the last 6 years or so of being able to access all my games on numerous PCs and redownload games I've bought a retail is a massive pro. Nobody says Steam is anti consumer anymore because everybody likes the service. It's very difficult for me not to see benefits of this.

lol at "going to destroy the industry forever". I'm sorry, but if you don't think every single game sale is going to go digital as soon as possible and without killing the industry, I don't even know what to say. This is, easily, the last generation of consoles with physical discs. I guarantee it.

 

[KimonoNoNo]

Consumer philosophy. Microsoft offers me a deal I don't like, so I choose not to partake in it. Moral arguments would only make sense of it was about goods that are essential, like food or medicine.

Yep, that's my stance.

MS is trying to sell a piece of equipment with additional strings attached that could trip up the uninformed, but is not the same as something like child labour.

 

[nib95]

Corporate greed headed by the biggest and most profitable players.

 

[Sqorgar]

I find it very annoying when people imply that if you like the idea of this system you're some brainwashed moron who's objectively wrong. I'm a man and I have feelings and I want to be able to buy retail games, tie them to an account and disregard the packaging, much more so than I want to trade in games. Is this so wrong? Can't you let me live?

I would be absolutely okay with that being an OPTION. That problem is that it is not.

Is a monopoly a moral issue or a consumer philosophy issue?

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Buying the Xbox One actively fucks every other poster on neoGAF. It contributes toward pushing a philosophy that is going to destroy the industry forever. You may disagree with the notion that this is what it is doing, but almost everyone in the community disagrees as you can see by the extreme backlash.

This is a pretty bold claim. NeoGAF isn't in control...not even close...and you should know this. The mainstream is. That's who MS and all publishers agreeing to this form of DRM are interested in seeking out.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

This coming from one of the biggest defenders of MS.

If you look back at my post history from before Tuesday, I imagine you'd find it near impossible to paint me as a Microsoft fanboy or defender of any kind.

I don't like Xbox One as it is. Like, all I like about it is this stuff. The actual system is underpowered, it has a Kinect I don't want, it has a Live TV focus I'm not interested in and they've not shown a game I want to play. I like the idea of tying games to accounts, and the controller. That is literally it. I barely even play current gen consoles.

I know it's easier for people here to pigeon hole people so they can disregard their opinions, but sorry man. I have absolutely no fondness for Microsoft whatsoever.

I would be absolutely okay with that being an OPTION. That problem is that it is not.

Is a monopoly a moral issue or a consumer philosophy issue?

What's the monopoly? Are you only going to be able to buy games from one source? Does retail competition not exist without a second hand market?

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

A difference in consumer intelligence, if you ask me.

 

[P90]

People are generally "let live in peace" when their actions AREN'T hurting anyone else. Buying the Xbox One actively fucks every other poster on neoGAF. It contributes toward pushing a philosophy that is going to destroy the industry forever. You may disagree with the notion that this is what it is doing, but almost everyone in the community disagrees as you can see by the extreme backlash (not that this means we're right and you're wrong, only that most people would vehemently suggest you are wrong). And I think anyone who calls themselves a "consumer" would generally be against such severe anti-consumer practices, unless they just hate themselves.

I agree with you, but with caveats. There are/will be easily obtainable alternatives to the XBone that are not so "anti-consumer". If people don't buy the machine and games made for it, then MS will be forced to change. The market will speak. It isn't like the IRS or sales tax, etc., where you have no other options.

 

[Karak]

I am not sure. I am not happy about it. But I am waiting for clarification from both companies before I sit down and really think about it more than my original knee jerk hate reaction.

 

[commedieu]

I don't know about morals but I find it astonishing that even after all of this there are people who are okay - and even defending this to trying to reason it to others.

I'm an open guy and honest with my opinions and have no problem defending things people are blind over (Ben from PA's comments yesterday, for example.) yet I find it absolutely impossible to even try to see it from Microsoft or the publisher's side. I know Penguins&Polarbears got popped for being an 'astroturfer' yesterday but my gut instinct is there are some more that are better at hiding at it.

I'm sad.

How did this go down? Any thread...?

Outside of that. I agree with you.

 

[NullPointer]

People are generally "let live in peace" when their actions AREN'T hurting anyone else. Buying the Xbox One actively fucks every other poster on neoGAF. It contributes toward pushing a philosophy that is going to destroy the industry forever. You may disagree with the notion that this is what it is doing, but almost everyone in the community disagrees as you can see by the extreme backlash (not that this means we're right and you're wrong, only that most people would vehemently suggest you are wrong). And I think anyone who calls themselves a "consumer" would generally be against such severe anti-consumer practices, unless they just hate themselves.

Very true.

We can make the argument without making it personal though. That's really the line isn't it?

 

[Christberg]

It's not one or the other. It's part of both.

The biggest thing is we do not fully understand how their used game system will work. We also don't know how the kinect always being on and the sort of privacy that may infringe upon (remember those ToS they likely leave you with none but nobody reads them).

Most don't like the idea that they can buy a game and only use it on one console (unless signed in on another). Ever moved and been without the internet for a few weeks? Too bad no xbone games while that happens oops. It may not be something that happens often, but the chance that it can and at some point likely will is really unsettling.

I'm also a multi console owner (have 3 x360's, 2 ps3's etc) and me and my wife both game. We will now have to buy two copies of every game (even single player) unless we decide to just play on one console and one account (unless MS gives you the ability to activate a number of consoles with your account or something). Even then though it means when she goes to visit her sister or friends she can't bring the game with her unless it's signed to her account and not mine. Really leaves a lot of questions and is really off putting to me wanting to invest a lot of money/time with their system.

I currently have over 100 360 titles, 5 systems, tons of accessories, and have been a gold subscriber since day 1. From what MS has shown it looks like I will be dodging out on them next gen. I'm tired of achievements and gimmicks like kinect and the way they have treated the 360 core audience the past 2-3 years. Now it looks like they are continuing the same path with the start of next gen and I don't like it.

Makes me feel sick to my stomach. Which isn't something you should be feeling after the announcement of a new system. You should feel excited and anticipation (like the ps4 announcement).

I'm in a similar situation. The SO and I like to play coop games together a LOT and not being able to purchase one of those copies at reduced price or use a game on different consoles with just a disc is a HUGE crap sandwich.

We have 2 TVs and 2 PS3s. I won't be buying an XBone (and wasn't planning on it anyway due to double XBL fees) but if they get away with this crap and Sony copies it... NOT good.

 

[Sqorgar]

It isn't anti consumer unless the overall experience is negative for the consumer. For me, Steam is very much pro consumer, because the experience I have had over the last 6 years or so of being able to access all my games on numerous PCs and redownload games I've bought a retail is a massive pro. Nobody says Steam is anti consumer anymore because everybody likes the service. It's very difficult for me not to see benefits of this.

I think it is ani-consumer. ALL DRM is anti-consumer. Try to play Steam offline and see how convenient it can truly be.

Also, how old are you? Because to a twenty year old, twenty years is forever. So 6 years of a service running fine may seem like the service will always be running and always be running in the same respectable manner. I mean, it's been doing fine for the entirety of your adult life. But all services fail eventually. There are youngsters who think Google and Facebook are forever, but those of us who remember Yahoo and MySpace know better than to assume permanence.

lol at "going to destroy the industry forever". I'm sorry, but if you don't think every single game sale is going to go digital as soon as possible and without killing the industry, I don't even know what to say. This is, easily, the last generation of consoles with physical discs. I guarantee it.

I'm okay with digital being an option - an option I will forever choose not to exercise. But you are right. I see where the industry is going and I HATE it. I'm trying to complain as loudly as possible and fight as aggressively as possible against it. I'm losing. But I'm not losing quietly.

 

[Crag Dweller]

Yup, me too. I said as much in my rant in another topic yesterday. I seriously am fucking punching myself in the face for ever buying an Xbox and Xbox 360. I partially contributed to this situation.

The only difference is that I had no way of knowing it would lead to this. People who buy Xbox One know exactly what it's leading to.

Thats a bunch of bullshit. Everyone knew what microsoft was doing. They said as much. Trying to paint yourself as ignorant of what they were doing is comical.

 

[Amir0x]

This is a pretty bold claim. NeoGAF isn't in control...not even close...and you should know this. The mainstream is. That's who MS and all publishers agreeing to this form of DRM are interested in seeking out.

I wasn't implying neoGAF was. My statement can intentionally be viewed in two lights - that Microsoft works so hard to fuck consumers with Xbox One that it fails and the industry falters, thus leading us down an industry crash. Thus, the industry would be destroyed. Or two, that Xbox One is successful and then its horrific practices are adopted, thus destroying the industry as we know it anyway - making it an inhospitable place to anyone who cares about consumer's rights.

It isn't anti consumer unless the overall experience is negative for the consumer. For me, Steam is very much pro consumer, because the experience I have had over the last 6 years or so of being able to access all my games on numerous PCs and redownload games I've bought a retail is a massive pro. Nobody says Steam is anti consumer anymore because everybody likes the service. It's very difficult for me not to see benefits of this.

lol at "going to destroy the industry forever". I'm sorry, but if you don't think every single game sale is going to go digital as soon as possible and without killing the industry, I don't even know what to say. This is, easily, the last generation of consoles with physical discs. I guarantee it.

See this is fine if you believe it, I'm just telling you why your last statement doesn't ring true for many... because many people on neoGAF believe this is going to destroy the industry and screw over games everywhere. If you believe in such a position - and most neoGAFers at least agree that these are horrific anti-consumer practices that must be stopped - then it makes sense to push back on your claims that this news isn't so bad, for example.

I agree with you on that count. But again,it's important not to make the argument sound like a call to arms. I think calling for blaming of the systems supporters devolves quickly into the realm of fanboy posturing and harassment, which in turn negates constructive and positive discussion.

I think it makes little sense equating someone buying an Xb1 to the immorality of purchasing blood diamonds or the like. Now, if you wanna talk exploiting of factory workers, I'm pretty sure ms used Foxconn to produce the 360 -- though you better not be posting that argument from an iPhone

Yeah, I think we're on the same page now. I have been extremely annoyed at this situation so I think all my posts sound like a call to arm the past two days, but I do not want some pitchfork-and-fire mob going after Xbox fans. Just, if an Xbox One fan tries to claim a certain thing about the system, I think it'd be appropriate to push back on those claims.

I don't even own a smartphone, for the record... I own a pay-as-you-go Alcatel number that cost me $29.99. To be honest, I'm not sure where they make the phones, which would make me an uneducated consumer in that regard.

I agree with you, but with caveats. There are/will be easily obtainable alternatives to the XBone that are not so "anti-consumer". If people don't buy the machine and games made for it, then MS will be forced to change. The market will speak.

Well, my problem is I am worried PS4 might be priced too expensively, and then it will be the only viable option. I am not sure Wii U has a chance to recover, though I hope it does...

Thats a bunch of bullshit. Everyone knew what microsoft was doing. They said as much. Trying to paint yourself as ignorant of what they were doing is comical.

I knew when I purchased an Xbox or Xbox 360 that it was going to lead to the death of lending, renting and borrowing? To once every 24 hours internet checks? I'm sorry I'm not a psychic, but I had no fucking clue they were going to do this. I didn't even IMAGINE such a scenario until a few months ago when the rumours started breaking out.

 

[PBY]

Yup, me too. I said as much in my rant in another topic yesterday. I seriously am fucking punching myself in the face for ever buying an Xbox and Xbox 360. I partially contributed to this situation.

The only difference is that I had no way of knowing it would lead to this. People who buy Xbox One know exactly what it's leading to.

Exactly. This is one of those moments I've talked about for years now. We're at a crossroads. We either let these companies take away our rights or we stand up to them and say no I will not let you take away my rights.

Are you guys serious with this? This is the tone of craziness.

Don't buy it then. I probably won't either. That being said, this is MS capitalizing on what they think will make them the most money based on tech that has developed and brought us to a point where digital distribution is viable. I think the train has left the station, we are heading toward that future across digital media.

And "no I will not let you take away my rights..." What rights? Seriously- explain, because at the moment I'm getting, tonally, the same kind of MY GUNS ARE MY RIGHTS, or THIS IS AMERICA type vibes.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

I think it is ani-consumer. ALL DRM is anti-consumer. Try to play Steam offline and see how convenient it can truly be.

Also, how old are you? Because to a twenty year old, twenty years is forever. So 6 years of a service running fine may seem like the service will always be running and always be running in the same respectable manner. I mean, it's been doing fine for the entirety of your adult life. But all services fail eventually. There are youngsters who think Google and Facebook are forever, but those of us who remember Yahoo and MySpace know better than to assume permanence.

I'm quite a bit older than 20.

And what can I say, I disagree. Nothing about DRM is anti consumer if the consumer feels he's getting a benefit out of it. I feel a "subscription to a digital purchase" or however Steam phrases it is more useful than a physical disc I can maybe resell if I'm short of money one day. A digital library is more appealing than a physical library. And thankfully for me, the console world is catching up to the PC world.

 

[Jake Tower]

Thats a bunch of bullshit. Everyone knew what microsoft was doing. They said as much. Trying to paint yourself as ignorant of what they were doing is comical.

I knew they wanted to get to an all in one entertainment box for the home. That aspect of Xbone I have no issue with (I'm not personally interested in that aspect, I just care about games). It is the moral and legal assault on media property and the fucking required spy cam that is driving me to moral outrage. I did not see that coming.

 

[Suikoguy]

Thats a bunch of bullshit. Everyone knew what microsoft was doing. They said as much. Trying to paint yourself as ignorant of what they were doing is comical.

You have an argument when it comes to Microsoft wanting to be the center of the living room. I think that has been obvious for a long time, and said countless times.

However, this maneuver to create a completely closed environment monopoly by removing the possibility of taking advantage of the first sale doctrine, was not so apparent.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

See this is fine if you believe it, I'm just telling you why your last statement doesn't ring true for many... because many people on neoGAF believe this is going to destroy the industry and screw over games everywhere. If you believe in such a position - and most neoGAFers at least agree that these are horrific anti-consumer practices that must be stopped - then it makes sense to push back on your claims that this news isn't so bad, for example.

If there is one thing in this digital world I put no stock in, it's the ability of internet game enthusiasts not to be incredibly hyperbolic and to not just want to join in a good outrage. I'm sure plenty of people have perfectly valid reasons to be opposed to this. I'm also pretty sure that when we're posting on GAF in 10 years, very few of them are going to have stopped playing video games over it.

 

[Suikoguy]

I'm quite a bit older than 20.

And what can I say, I disagree. Nothing about DRM is anti consumer if the consumer feels he's getting a benefit out of it. I feel a "subscription to a digital purchase" or however Steam phrases it is more useful than a physical disc I can maybe resell if I'm short of money one day. A digital library is more appealing than a physical library. And thankfully for me, the console world is catching up to the PC world.

Hmm, I think I was wrong. You just see Microsoft as a friend who will replicate Steam pricing... you are in for such a rude awakening.

 

[NullPointer]

Thats a bunch of bullshit. Everyone knew what microsoft was doing. They said as much. Trying to paint yourself as ignorant of what they were doing is comical.

I'll admit I was totally naive, and thought the fee would eventually be replaced as they brought several several new revenue streams online and competitor's reached some parity.

There was nothing to stop MS from bringing more hardcore gaming centric services up at a premium while making basic multiplayer free. It seemed like an obvious move and PR win, especially as they started to shift towards family friendly entertainment via Kinect and XBLA games and wanted EVERYBODY to jump in.

But what did they do? They raised the cost of Gold.

That's when I jumped ship entirely, and had the term "leaving money on the table" imprinted on my brain ever since.

I'm a firm believer in "everybody can win" and that you can make a fortune by working with your consumers rather than at odds with them. But its much easier to try and squeeze every penny out of your locked in customer base. We shouldn't let it be so easy.

 

[uuaschbaer]

It's a psychological issue. People like to own things, people like to trade on an equal footing. Companies like to sell things without the consequence of losing what they sold. Boom, problem.

Fight!

 

[Dave Meltzer]

Hmm, I think I was wrong. You just see Microsoft as a friend who will replicate Steam pricing... you are in for such a rude awakening.

This isn't about pricing. I doubt Xbox One is going to have sales like Steam. I buy plenty of games on release day for PC at full price.

But an additional benefit of this system I see as someone in the UK is the game retail market here just has complete price collapses on retail games within weeks of release. So I can buy a new game 1 month after release for £20 and still get all the benefits of it being a digital purchase even when the digital purchase is probably still gonna be £50. To me the only issue with this is used games, and I don't give a shit about used games. If you do, well I see your concerns.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm sure plenty of people have perfectly valid reasons to be opposed to this. I'm also pretty sure that when we're posting on GAF in 10 years, very few of them are going to have stopped playing video games over it.

I hope you're right... but only because Xbox one failed and PS4 or Wii U succeeded, and the industry lived to fight another day

Are you guys serious with this? This is the tone of craziness.

Don't buy it then. I probably won't either. That being said, this is MS capitalizing on what they think will make them the most money based on tech that has developed and brought us to a point where digital distribution is viable. I think the train has left the station, we are heading toward that future across digital media.

And "no I will not let you take away my rights..." What rights? Seriously- explain, because at the moment I'm getting, tonally, the same kind of MY GUNS ARE MY RIGHTS, or THIS IS AMERICA type vibes.

I won't buy it. But I also not going to be quiet about these practices. Microsoft has revealed the greatest string of threats to consumer rights since the gaming industry has started. If that's not worth having a sharper tone than usual, than nothing is realistically.

If I buy a physical copy of a $60 game, I expect to be able to share it or to borrow from a friend who owns it. if I feel so inclined, i expect to be able to rent games. If I buy a console, I expect it to trust me enough not to check up on what I'm doing once every 24 hours.

These are now rights that Microsoft is actively attacking, and it will have a crippling impact on the industry for years to come. I don't believe that's hyperbole.

 

[Koren]

Explain your privacy issues with the drm.

You can't play without Microsoft knowing what you play, when, and how much. And possibly doing marketing research with it.

That may seems a minor intrusion, but I truly don't like it. That already bothers me on PS3, so I couldn't stand XBOne DRM...

 

[PBY]

I won't buy it. But I also not going to be quiet about these practices. Microsoft has revealed the greatest string of threats to consumer rights since the gaming industry has started. If that's not worth having a sharper tone than usual, than nothing is realistically.

If I buy a physical copy of a $60 game, I expect to be able to share it or to borrow from a friend who owns it. if I feel so inclined, i expect to be able to rent games. If I buy a console, I expect it to trust me enough not to check up on what I'm doing once every 24 hours.

These are now rights that Microsoft is actively attacking, and it will have a crippling impact on the industry for years to come. I don't believe that's hyperbole.

Jesus christ man. If you can't see that the bolded is hyperbole...

I'm still waiting on your answer about what rights they are violating?

 

[Dave Meltzer]

I hope you're right... but only because Xbox one failed and PS4 or Wii U succeeded, and the industry lived to fight another day

Do you believe the PS5 (hypothetically) would still support physical media? In...2019 or so? I mean, obviously no one can say for sure but it just seems like an absolutely absurd concept to me that we'll still be buying discs with 0s and 1s on them when we'll have ridiculously fast internet speeds and hard drive capacities.

 

[Jake Tower]

You can't play without Microsoft knowing what you play, when, and how much. And possibly doing marketing research with it.

Microsoft may also change the terms of use at any time, making your games "expire" and require repurchase. That is literally theft.

 

[Amir0x]

Do you believe the PS5 (hypothetically) would still support physical media? In...2019 or so? I mean, obviously no one can say for sure but it just seems like an absolutely absurd concept to me that we'll still be buying discs with 0s and 1s on them when we'll have ridiculously fast internet speeds and hard drive capacities.

I don't know. I can only take things one day at a time. If PS5 starts denying renting games, lending and borrowing games, then I will attack it as vociferously as possible as well. You may well be right about the future. My hope is that if enough people stop the Xbox One from being successful, then maybe these companies would reconsider how far they're willing to go in the future.

And that's the only thing I can hold onto at the moment. Because all your comment suggests is that the industry would have successfully been destroyed if your prediction is correct.

 

[NullPointer]

Do you believe the PS5 (hypothetically) would still support physical media? In...2019 or so? I mean, obviously no one can say for sure but it just seems like an absolutely absurd concept to me that we'll still be buying discs with 0s and 1s on them when we'll have ridiculously fast internet speeds and hard drive capacities.

You don't have to be physical to adhere to the first sale doctrine and allow for transferring of ownership. In the case of digital goods or services the property in question is the license itself.

 

[PBY]

I don't know. I can only take things one day at a time. If PS5 starts denying renting games, lending and borrowing games, then I will attack it as vociferously as possible as well. You may well be right about the future. My hope is that if enough people stop the Xbox One from being successful, then maybe these companies would reconsider how far they're willing to go in the future.

And that's the only thing I can hold onto at the moment. Because all your comment suggests that the industry would have successfully been destroyed if your prediction is correct.

You keep throwing that point out- and you haven't backed it up with anything.

 

[P90]

I see your points. Sony has the option to go for the kill by pricing the PS4 the same or under the XBone or go for maximum profit, thus hurting a large possible block of gamers. Nintendo. Well, when will they ever smell the coffee when it comes to home consoles? My insurance policy is set as I am mainly a handheld gamer. I cannot/do not totally feel the pain the home console demographic like you have.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I think it's a consumer philosophy. I honestly don't like what Microsoft is doing in more ways than one, and I would be happy to make my case to anyone willing to listen. But at the end of the day, I find some of this rhetoric counterproductive. If I make my heartfelt case, and someone in the room goes "that's swell and I respect that, but I really want to play Halo and don't mind not 'owning' the game in the traditional sense," I don't see how it behooves us to proceed forward as though this action is a personal affront to me. Yes, I understand that I can make an argument that this person's actions are having an indirect impact on me and the way I like to purchase games, but ultimately, I'd argue that this is a "don't hate the player, hate the game" situation.

The person just wants to play games and have fun, and making it into a situation where every action has moral implications wherein I can take issue with his/her purchase of a video game just strikes me as unnecessarily fostering an adversarial relationship. This person doesn't owe me anything, and it's silly to me to act like they have to answer to me for this.

Instead, I would just continue making the argument, voting with my wallet, and laying the blame on the companies in question hoping that things turn around.

 

[Jake Tower]

If I buy a physical copy of a $60 game, I expect to be able to share it or to borrow from a friend who owns it. if I feel so inclined, i expect to be able to rent games.

It is an expectation based on your legal right:

17 USC § 109

(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106 (3), the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I wasn't implying neoGAF was. My statement can intentionally be viewed in two lights - that Microsoft works so hard to fuck consumers with Xbox One that it fails and the industry falters, thus leading us down an industry crash. Thus, the industry would be destroyed. Or two, that Xbox One is successful and then its horrific practices are adopted, thus destroying the industry as we know it anyway - making it an inhospitable place to anyone who cares about consumer's rights.

I'm not happy with some of the restrictions proposed, but I think you're seriously overestimating MS' role in this as well as missing the fact that the console industry has already been all-but destroyed by encroaching competition from other platforms with more flexibility and greater control over their wares. The major reason for this is that they're already digital all the way through. This is part of the larger digital transition that has to happen because consumers are voting it in, and MS is choosing a path for it to happen as during the generation because the markets are ready or very near to being ready for it. When they see sales of digital software and media across the world outstrip physical sales of software, and that we're firmly in the era of software as service, the changeover must be anticipated within five to eight years that these consoles will be active. They're ready for the software maker who decides platform success. Ready for their choices in how to offer their product. I'm not saying I agree with their approach, but I do see where it's coming from and, really, I don't see any way forward that doesn't have to make a break from the past in a painful way that will most assuredly see many leave the MS console behind. I don't think that any new platform coming now or later will be able to have their feet planted on the other side when the entire market has moved over the line.

 

[GitarooMan]

Jesus christ man. If you can't see that the bolded is hyperbole...

I'm still waiting on your answer about what rights they are violating?

I would like to know this too, not because I necessarily disagree, but because I keep hearing the terms "rights" thrown around with no detail as to what that means. For example, I bought a retail copy of Bioshock Infinite for PC, which is basically just some DVDs to install that are essentially coasters after I put in the Steam code. Is that also a rights violation?

 

[Amir0x]

You keep throwing that point out- and you haven't backed it up with anything.

What are you even talking about? I ignored your last post for a reason - it makes no sense.

The "industry being destroyed" is a point of contention that only requires a definition of what the destroyed state is.

For me, the destroyed industry is one which has been irreversibly changed from one that is friendly to consumers to one that is not. Since these are horrific anti-consumer practices Microsoft have adopted, a world in which they succeed is a poor one indeed... and a industry that is effectively ruined.

I am a consumer. So for me destroyed means when an environment becomes UNfriendly to consumers.

It is an expectation based on your legal right:

17 USC § 109

(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106 (3), the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord.

Maybe that's a more hard "right" that peter_b0y would find acceptable? But I'm still unsure if this will actually be able to be legally challenged...

 

[PBY]

It is an expectation based on your legal right:

17 USC § 109

(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106 (3), the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord.

I'm not sure the USC applies here, but either way, I'm waiting for Amirox to give me any sort of basis for his "rights" which he feels MS is going to destroy.

 

[Daingurse]

For me it's a moral issue and it honestly destroys the major incentive I have in purchasing consoles, now that I own a gaming PC. I have no interest in supporting a device that is so blatantly transparent in it's anti-consumer goals. I'm a gamer, I go where the games go. But fuck, this shit is ridiculous.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

I don't know. I can only take things one day at a time. If PS5 starts denying renting games, lending and borrowing games, then I will attack it as vociferously as possible as well. You may well be right about the future. My hope is that if enough people stop the Xbox One from being successful, then maybe these companies would reconsider how far they're willing to go in the future.

And that's the only thing I can hold onto at the moment. Because all your comment suggests is that the industry would have successfully been destroyed if your prediction is correct.

The industry is not going to be destroyed by not having used games, man. If people actually cared about things like that, the digital purchases of books, apps and music wouldn't be on the rise. People buying books on Kindle can't trade them in. Guess what, they don't give a shit cos it's more convenient to not have to carry a bunch of books round with them.

 

[Amir0x]

The industry is not going to be destroyed by not having used games, man. If people actually cared about things like that, the digital purchases of books, apps and music wouldn't be on the rise. People buying books on Kindle can't trade them in. Guess what, they don't give a shit cos it's more convenient to not have to carry a bunch of books round with them.

And renting. And lending. And borrowing. And also, always-online checks (once every 24 hours). The industry will definitely be a ruined place if all succeeded.

 

[p3tran]

It is a moral and legal argument.

agreed! can you xbone-ify my avatar?

 

[semiconscious]

ms needs to make it crystal clear to people that they're no longer 'buying' games. they're 'leasing' games. the biggest moral issue i see is their refusal to simply say this, & get it over with...

 

[PBY]

And renting. And lending. And borrowing. And also, always-online checks (once every 24 hours). The industry will definitely be a ruined place if all succeeded.

On demand video killed traditional stores- that industry is still there. If you really care about this issue you should stop throwing out terms like "destroyed" and "ruined place"- it cuts against the heart of your argument by making your stance look ridiculous.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

You don't have to be physical to adhere to the first sale doctrine and allow for transferring of ownership. In the case of digital goods or services the property in question is the license itself.

I would have no opposition to a system in which you could be connected to Xbox Live, go to "Deactivate my game", click the game and it'd be deleted from your system and the CD Key would work for new installations. They probably SHOULD do something like that, and I don't think not allowing it is a good thing. But the realistic situation here is we're moving more and more towards people owning digital licenses rather than physical products, and no matter how far MS do or don't go now, inevitably things are going to go only one way, and I don't think it's anti consumer or going to kill the industry. I can only speak for my own perspective here, but the things people are complaining about do not affect me, but the benefits of the system do.

 

[NullPointer]

The industry is not going to be destroyed by not having used games, man. If people actually cared about things like that, the digital purchases of books, apps and music wouldn't be on the rise. People buying books on Kindle can't trade them in. Guess what, they don't give a shit cos it's more convenient to not have to carry a bunch of books round with them.

Add online checks to physical books and make it so those digital books could only be read on a single proprietary piece of hardware and I think you would see people screaming from the rooftops about the decline of books.

I would have no opposition to a system in which you could be connected to Xbox Live, go to "Deactivate my game", click the game and it'd be deleted from your system and the CD Key would work for new installations. They probably SHOULD do something like that, and I don't think not allowing it is a good thing. But the realistic situation here is we're moving more and more towards people owning digital licenses rather than physical products, and no matter how far MS do or don't go now, inevitably things are going to go only one way, and I don't think it's anti consumer or going to kill the industry. I can only speak for my own perspective here, but the things people are complaining about do not affect me, but the benefits of the system do.

We probably agree more than we disagree. I see an all DD future and welcome it with open arms, but what I also see is a Wild West mentality at work where consumer rights are being tossed in the trash left and right, all because the law is vague when it comes to digital goods, and especially so for digital services. The EU is showing us some of the way though.

Somebody needs to step up and offer a complete package that makes simple and transparent guarantees that serve the interests of all sides. Whoever does that wins.

 

[soul creator]

I would like to know this too, not because I necessarily disagree, but because I keep hearing the terms "rights" thrown around with no detail as to what that means. For example, I bought a retail copy of Bioshock Infinite for PC, which is basically just some DVDs to install that are essentially coasters after I put in the Steam code. Is that also a rights violation?

The usual response is that "MS is doing this on a closed system, and they won't have cheap sales, therefore it's worse"

Which does seem to imply that the DRM on a disc in and of itself isn't the issue...it's whether there are other pros to outweigh the cons of DRM (or how strict the DRM is). Which I can understand completely.

But that's not really a "moral" issue at that point, that's just a "how friendly is this digital ecosystem?" issue. The primary thing that's weird about Xbox One is that it's trying to bridge the gap between discs (which console players are used to) and digital. Somewhat paradoxically, if MS just ignored disc-based games completely, people might still say it sucks, but I don't think the anger would be there as much, because the history tied up in "owning" discs wouldn't even be part of the discussion.

 

[HokieJoe]

Excellent post. This is just another shot across the bow by IP holders. They want their cake and it to. I'm an Xbot, but I'm off the train on this issue and the gimped hardware at this point. MS will have to do A LOT to regain me as a customer because of these idiotic philosphies they've shoe-horned into a GAMING console.

EDIT: If I'm wrong about all of this, I'll gladly admit that I was wrong.

Its far more than that though. Each digital marketplace establishes precedent for and informs the others.

Whats going on with games isn't so different than whats already happened in the world of music and books and movies (and more). The internet itself is undermining many a classic business model, and there are lots of perspectives on how best to move forward.

I don't work in games, but all this drama and the repercussions from various industries helps inform me in my own work.


To the goods purchased by that consumer? Yes, the consumer is entitled to those.

 

[Jake Tower]

The industry is not going to be destroyed by not having used games, man. If people actually cared about things like that, the digital purchases of books, apps and music wouldn't be on the rise. People buying books on Kindle can't trade them in. Guess what, they don't give a shit cos it's more convenient to not have to carry a bunch of books round with them.

When physical media is gone, the Ministry of Truth will triumph.