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[borghe]

I check what my tv is currently set to.

 

[tanod]

I don't think it's true that the GPU does the 360's scaling, one easy way to test this would be to see if you can measure a performance difference on 1080p (scaled) vs 720p (native), since it would take additional GPU time to render and copy back the scaled framebuffer to main memory (not to mention the possible memory impact of where to put it after the resolve, unless it came out of the 32MB system RAM).

There is a hardware scaler in the PS3's video output but it can only be used to scale horizontally, which means it is not transparent to developers and requires a bit of work to use correctly.

This stuff I am absolutely sure on:
The only hardware scaler each system has is the GPU.

For the PS3, the scaling functions of the GPU were opened to developer use in an SDK update. Besides the GPUs, there is no dedicated scaling chips. If you still don't believe me, visit beyond3d or PM garickk. He knows a lot more about this stuff than I do.

Speculation: As far as testing the performance of the 360 GPU at different resolutions, it's my guess that a certain amount of GPU power and memory is reserved for the scaling algorithms much like a certain portion of the CPU power and memory is reserved by the OS functions (guide, messaging, etc.).


The ANA is not a scaling chip. This was a PR farce by Microsoft.

 

[Z3F]

This stuff I am absolutely sure on:
The only hardware scaler each system has is the GPU.

For the PS3, the scaling functions of the GPU were opened to developer use in an SDK update. Besides the GPUs, there is no dedicated scaling chips. If you still don't believe me, visit beyond3d or PM garickk. He knows a lot more about this stuff than I do.

Speculation: As far as testing the performance of the 360 GPU at different resolutions, it's my guess that a certain amount of GPU power and memory is reserved for the scaling algorithms much like a certain portion of the CPU power and memory is reserved by the OS functions (guide, messaging, etc.).


The ANA is not a scaling chip. This was a PR farce by Microsoft.

Who gives a fuck how it's done? All a consumer needs to know is that the 360 can convert everything to any HD resolution out there while the PS3 can't, at least not right now.

 

[borghe]

for those interested, it was my PS3 for some reason. weird. I did the reset and R&C demo now comes up 1080i.

but not heavenly sword (and yes, I know it is 720p)

 

[Nerevar]

*snip*
I had always assumed this was a good thing, because 1080i is the standard to which the industry, particularly the broadcast industry, is STILL working to standardize on, with 1080p acting as an artifact just to push the display industry specifically, along.
*snip*

where'd you get a crazy idea like that? That's not true at all. The 720p shops aren't moving towards 1080i at all, because for some (like ESPN) a smoother progressive picture is much more desirable than the higher visual fidelity afforded by 1080i.

 

[Raistlin]

This stuff I am absolutely sure on:
The only hardware scaler each system has is the GPU.

Are you a dev? My understanding is that you are breaking NDA right now then ... at least for PS3.

Speculation: As far as testing the performance of the 360 GPU at different resolutions, it's my guess that a certain amount of GPU power and memory is reserved for the scaling algorithms much like a certain portion of the CPU power and memory is reserved by the OS functions (guide, messaging, etc.).


The ANA is not a scaling chip. This was a PR farce by Microsoft.

Well, you got one thing right about the 360 ... that ANA is not a scaler. The rest, lots of failure.

I suppose we could give you the general statement that Xenos handles scaling ... but you're quite wrong on how it does it.

Look at this thread and specifically this post for details.

 

[tanod]

Are you a dev? My understanding is that you are breaking NDA right now then ... at least for PS3.

I'm not a dev but this is public information. My main point is to get people to stop regurgitating the BS that the ANA is a scaling chip.

Who gives a fuck how it's done? All a consumer needs to know is that the 360 can convert everything to any HD resolution out there while the PS3 can't, at least not right now.

Geez dude. I think it's interesting so I'm gonna fucking talk about it if I fucking want to. Why the fuck do I care what the average consumer thinks or understands? I'm just having a conversation with somebody on a VG message board. *rolls eyes*

 

[Argyle]

This stuff I am absolutely sure on:
The only hardware scaler each system has is the GPU.

For the PS3, the scaling functions of the GPU were opened to developer use in an SDK update. Besides the GPUs, there is no dedicated scaling chips. If you still don't believe me, visit beyond3d or PM garickk. He knows a lot more about this stuff than I do.

Speculation: As far as testing the performance of the 360 GPU at different resolutions, it's my guess that a certain amount of GPU power and memory is reserved for the scaling algorithms much like a certain portion of the CPU power and memory is reserved by the OS functions (guide, messaging, etc.).


The ANA is not a scaling chip. This was a PR farce by Microsoft.

OK, sure, the scaler is not in the H/ANA. However, when you say "it uses the GPU for scaling" I think most people (that is, me would take that as "hardware features normally used for rendering graphics are used for scaling" which is not the case on 360 (and probably not the case on PS3, depending on the game).

Both systems have dedicated hardware scalers separate from the rest of the rendering pipeline. These scalers do reside on the physical GPU but do not use resources from the GPU's rendering pipeline - so as far as any developer is concerned, they had might as well be on a separate chip.

 

[Raistlin]

I'm not a dev but this is public information.

Since when?

Every thread I've read here shows basically all devs either being completely silent, or hinting at the PS3 having a scaler ... but dancing around it a bit.

The only one that I know of to come out and directly say something was DarkJediKnight (iirc) over at AVS ... and he stated there is indeed a scaler in the PS3.



Granted, I haven't read any updates on the situation over at Beyond3D in many months ... but I wasn't aware of any new confirmation (specifically of the 'no scaler' sort). If this has occurred, please point me to it.

My main point is to get people to stop regurgitating the BS that the ANA is a scaling chip.

By instead spreading incorrect info about how Xenos does scaling ... completely disregarding its implementation of the Avivo display pipeline?

 

[Raistlin]

dware scalers separate from the rest of the rendering pipeline. These scalers do reside on the physical GPU but do not use resources from the GPU's rendering pipeline - so as far as any developer is concerned, they had might as well be on a separate chip.

Are you implying its been confirmed that the PS3's scaler is part of the RSX? Can you point to this info?

 

[ascully]

how t=do you know, on my 1080 set it doesn't tell me when a game starts if it is720, 1080 or what ?? how do you know for sure ?

My 3 Year Old Sony 51 Inch RPTV Doesn't have a info button to show you the resolution but there is one way you can tell, if your set is in 1080I mode the wide zoom button does not work and obviously it looks sharper, if its displaying in 480P you can press the wide zoom button to change the aspect ratio of the picture to 4.3.

Thats a easy way to tell what mode its in.

 

[D3MO]

I have the same problem

Sony has till Firmware update 2.0 to fix this or I'm going to the 360.

Seriously this pisses me the fuck off.

I spend $60 on a game (R:FOM)...the only one I own...and it runs in SD...Gahhh

 

[Raistlin]

I have the same problem

Sony has till Firmware update 2.0 to fix this or I'm going to the 360.

Seriously this pisses me the fuck off.

I spend $60 on a game (R:FOM)...the only one I own...and it runs in SD...Gahhh

Guess you better go out and get a 360 then.

 

[D3MO]

Guess you better go out and get a 360 then.

But I can't play FFXIII and MGSIV on a 360...and if those games are in 720p I'm gonna go crazy.

 

[Raistlin]

But I can't play FFXIII and MGSIV on a 360...and if those games are in 720p I'm gonna go crazy.

>_<

Then buy a new TV. You seem to really want those games ... what's the problem? Crap FFXIII probably won't hit for 1.5 - 2 years.

 

[D3MO]

>_<

Then buy a new TV. You seem to really want those games ... what's the problem? Crap FFXIII probably won't hit for 1.5 - 2 years.

I just bought this TV a couple of months ago...w/o doing research...I was also dumb enough to get the 3 year warranty.....I was very high that day...but umm...anyone know what the 3-year circuit city waranty covers? Can the TV say drop and break?

I can't just admit defeat and buy a new TV...too much pride....must not have buyers remorse....

 

[Raistlin]

I just bought this TV a couple of months ago...w/o doing research...I was also dumb enough to get the 3 year warranty.....I was very high that day...but umm...anyone know what the 3-year circuit city waranty covers? Can the TV say drop and break?

I can't just admit defeat and buy a new TV...too much pride....must not have buyers remorse....

ummm :lol



Sorry dude ... that sucks. Crap, I didn't even know stores still had 1080i CRT's. Who knows where they dragged that thing out of

I hope you got an insane price on it.



You could always sell it and get back at least some of what you payed towards a new TV?

 

[Ashhong]

for those interested, it was my PS3 for some reason. weird. I did the reset and R&C demo now comes up 1080i.

but not heavenly sword (and yes, I know it is 720p)

ha, i told ya glad that it works.

if you know anybody with a nice 1080p set, i recommend taking your ps3 there and playing HS. it really really is a whole different experience in HD glory. i started the final chapter/boss on a 1080, and I played the whole ending with my mouth open. i dont think i would have liked HS as much as i do without that TV lol.

 

[Ashhong]

I just bought this TV a couple of months ago...w/o doing research...I was also dumb enough to get the 3 year warranty.....I was very high that day...but umm...anyone know what the 3-year circuit city waranty covers? Can the TV say drop and break?

I can't just admit defeat and buy a new TV...too much pride....must not have buyers remorse....

Pretty sure circuit city is 90day return policy. anyways, if its a product replacement warranty, say something is wrong with it, like the sound cuts out from the speakers or something, and that you would like to replace it with a better one so you dont have that problem. i did that with my ipod for years.

 

[D3MO]

ummm :lol



Sorry dude ... that sucks. Crap, I didn't even know stores still had 1080i CRT's. Who knows where they dragged that thing out of

I hope you got an insane price on it.



You could always sell it and get back at least some of what you payed towards a new TV?

I paid ~$500 w/ tax and 3 year warranty included.

So what can I do w/ this 3 year warranty....anyone know?
If the TV were to like tip over and break...could I get like store credit or something? Cause I doubt these TV's are still in production...

 

[D3MO]

Pretty sure circuit city is 90day return policy. anyways, if its a product replacement warranty, say something is wrong with it, like the sound cuts out from the speakers or something, and that you would like to replace it with a better one so you dont have that problem. i did that with my ipod for years.

Does that work?

Will they like inspect the TV rigorously?

I know I tried doing that at GameCrazy w/ my GBA (non-SP)...and the guy tried it out for like a thousand times and he's like...I see no problem here....no GTFO....

 

[JeStaH]

Guess you better go out and get a 360 then.

Are you hinting that this will never be fixed?

I have an old Hi-Def (480p/1080i) set myself. What about blu-ray movies? Those play in 1080i right? I don't mind if a few older games don't run in 1080i as long as the blu-ray movies do.

Will ALL future games run in 1080i or is that still up to the dev?

Edit: Does Motostorm run at 1080i? That is one older game that I will care about!

 

[Fafalada]

The problem is that it takes resources to do it in software

Resources needed for scaling has been patently overblown and mystified by variety of FUD over last couple of years. If the operation was so damn costly, it'd be hard to explain why majority of the PS2 library does it for free, without the benefit of having anything remotely like "dedicated scaling voodoo chips".

But that will never stop the brigade that now believes scaling requires a supercomputer or two in "hardware" -_-

 

[Raistlin]

Are you hinting that this will never be fixed?

Currently released games? Probably not.

I have an old Hi-Def (480p/1080i) set myself. What about blu-ray movies? Those play in 1080i right? I don't mind if a few older games don't run in 1080i as long as the blu-ray movies do.

They do.

Will ALL future games run in 1080i or is that still up to the dev?

I think its still up to devs, though not positive. The hope is that it will become mandatory (at least assuming that doesn't impact the games).

Edit: Does Motostorm run at 1080i? That is one older game that I will care about!

Unfortunately, no.

 

[JeStaH]

Ok got it. Thanks!

I guess us early adopters are just screwed. That's ok, I do plan on getting a 1080p set at some point so I can enjoy HD-DVD and Blu Ray movies at full resolution.

I was just hoping to wait until my current TV died . Uncharted and Ratchet is sure making it hard to wait on pulling the trigger though!

 

[ascully]

Ok got it. Thanks!

I guess us early adopters are just screwed. That's ok, I do plan on getting a 1080p set at some point so I can enjoy HD-DVD and Blu Ray movies at full resolution.

I was just hoping to wait until my current TV died . Uncharted and Ratchet is sure making it hard to wait on pulling the trigger though!

Uncharted and Ratchet will both run in 1080I, and yes you can watch bluray movies in 1080I also

 

[tanod]

By instead spreading incorrect info about how Xenos does scaling ... completely disregarding its implementation of the Avivo display pipeline?

I clearly labeled my post between that which I knew and that which I was purely guessing on. I don't see how that's misleading at all unless a person's reading comprehension sucks balls.

 

[Argyle]

Are you implying its been confirmed that the PS3's scaler is part of the RSX? Can you point to this info?

Nope, I'm not really confirming a thing. If I had to take a guess from looking at the board, however...