On it's own, no, but Borderlands 2 did itself no favours with the numerous I-see-the-joke/reference-but-it's-not-clever-or-funny moments. It felt like I had someone beside me constantly nudging me in the side going "hey, hey, hey, did you get it, you got it, right? yeah, we're so cool with our knowledge of pop culture". A little more subtly and restraint could have gone a long way.
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Is there a reference terrible enough to make you stop playing it?
- Thread starter Ultimate_Trainer
- Start date
Anthony Burch was the lead writer for Borderlands 2. That's pretty much all the context you need.
BTFO tbh fam
DoktorEvil
Banned
No game has thrown enough references at me enough to quit, but I did eventually grow bored of Borderlands 1 and skipped 2 and pre-whatever.
My work is done here.
My work is done here.
Hibiki Kurosawa
Member
That's a pathetic reference and joke, but that's also a pathetic reason not to get a game.
If a reference got me to stop playing a game, it'd have to be a "the straw that broke the camel's back" sort of thing.
Borderlands 2 didn't bother me too much, but I do remember being like "okay, I get it," a lot because I didn't find a lot of the stuff referenced to be funny or maybe it felt forced in? I can't remember, I recall just like...sighing a lot.
Borderlands 2 didn't bother me too much, but I do remember being like "okay, I get it," a lot because I didn't find a lot of the stuff referenced to be funny or maybe it felt forced in? I can't remember, I recall just like...sighing a lot.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
On the same note: is it not a dick move to shit on your peers who worked really hard on writing FC3 during a moment when they were getting some recognition?
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
Haha damn, forgot about that one.
On the Burch-Davis exchange, yeah, Davis' response was an invalid argument of a tu quoque mixed with an accusation of jealousy, if you take them to only be talking about what makes writing good. In that sense, sure it was an asshole move.
There's a case to be made, as above, that it was actually about the ethics of publicly criticising your peers as they win something. Then Davis' comment seems justified as a rude response to someone else being a jerk.
There's a case to be made, as above, that it was actually about the ethics of publicly criticising your peers as they win something. Then Davis' comment seems justified as a rude response to someone else being a jerk.
diffusionx
Gold Member
I don't like Guacamelee and the references were part of the reason why.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I think it's just a very simple case of "people in glass houses" and Davis pointed that out in a brilliantly funny, on-point way.
References in and of themselves are fine, but when a game, or movie, or TV show, or comic, or any media really seems to rely on them in lieu of having a solid foundation in its own merits, it can bring the whole experience down.
It's one of the things that bugged me about Skullgirls, though to be fair the references weren't the only extremely derivative part of the game.
I guess the other thing is that jokes made that use references can be hilarious if they're good jokes, but a reference is not inherently a joke.
Basically if the game is going to make me scroll through text, hear dialogue during gameplay, or watch unskippable cutscenes (pretty rare these days, at least), the least they can do is put something entertaining in there beyond "hey remember that other thing you may or may not have liked?"
It's one of the things that bugged me about Skullgirls, though to be fair the references weren't the only extremely derivative part of the game.
I guess the other thing is that jokes made that use references can be hilarious if they're good jokes, but a reference is not inherently a joke.
Basically if the game is going to make me scroll through text, hear dialogue during gameplay, or watch unskippable cutscenes (pretty rare these days, at least), the least they can do is put something entertaining in there beyond "hey remember that other thing you may or may not have liked?"
Triforce141
Member
If the reference is within the series like Zelda and the "It's dangerous to go alone!" or within a creator's games like MGS4 and Snatcher with Ed and Jonathan, then I don't mind it that much.
As long as the game does it in a self-referential/fourth wall breaking way and still has good writing on its own like in Kid Icarus Uprising, I can enjoy it.
If the game is chock full of it like the Borderlands series, where the writing for those references is more like, "Look, remember this reference? We put it in, it's funny, laugh!" and that's all that there is, then it gets on my nerves.
The only real time I get annoyed by a something like a reference/meme itself is when it's Skyrim's "Arrow to the Knee". Then again, I think Skyrim's a boring game to begin with.
As long as the game does it in a self-referential/fourth wall breaking way and still has good writing on its own like in Kid Icarus Uprising, I can enjoy it.
If the game is chock full of it like the Borderlands series, where the writing for those references is more like, "Look, remember this reference? We put it in, it's funny, laugh!" and that's all that there is, then it gets on my nerves.
The only real time I get annoyed by a something like a reference/meme itself is when it's Skyrim's "Arrow to the Knee". Then again, I think Skyrim's a boring game to begin with.
If there is an Arrow to the Knee reference in the Wii U Zelda, I would shelf that game and never play it after that.
What was the game Burch was talking about
DaciaJC
Gold Member
Far Cry 3.
Golgo 13
The Man With The Golden Dong
Makes sense now, and yeah, that was an epic response. Holy shitballs.
Aaaaand you lost me. That game never shut up and felt like it was constantly trying to be quippy. Annoyed the hell out of me, personally. Just a personal taste thing though. I can see the fun there if you enjoyed that type of dialogue.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Yeah, Borderlands 2 was fucking terrible with that stuff. I really missed silent protagonists cause I wanted to kill my character every time he opened his stupid mouth.
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
Come on breh. Does a main character yelling "Cool story bro", "splooge",etc when getting a critical hit really that bad?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Preachy? Wot? It's a joke with Mr Torgue. I mean... whatI can take the bad jokes.
I can't take the preachy social crap that the characters start ranting about. That made me shut off the game.
For the third time: like when? Most of the pop culture and meme references are in quest, challenge or gun names and that's it.
Diablo 3 has a challenge name called "Why did it have to be snakes?". I sorta smiled at that. I didn't go "UGH I get it, shut up already!". But I did say "shut up already" whenever the characters spoke, and it wasn't because of memes, it was because the story and dialogue were actual garbage.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
GTA 5 is by far the best thing ever in terms of pop culture references.
The Baron Count
Member
I suppose so, though I don't get the sense that the dude ever really considered himself a true part of Gearbox. Wouldn't you say there is a difference between being openly critical about a game that you feel has poor writing getting a writing nomination and specifically insulting someone on their personal twitter account?
I see your point though and it wouldn't be the first time that Burch has acted like a dick that's for sure, but I don't think it makes Davis's tweet or the hype men that think it's such a "sick burn" seem any less childish.
Seems like Burch was being the same critic he has always been. I don't see the harm in that. He didn't name call or anything of that nature. If I got a job at a developer I would expect to be allowed to be critical of games that my peers make the same way as ever. I don't see how it's alright for a developer to praise a peer's game but not criticize it. Especially with something like FC3. Who the hell REALLY thinks that game deserved a nomination for writing?
Yeah, that's totally what I said. You're an astoundingly talented conversationalist, and such an astute observer too.
Japanmanx3
Member
Yabberwocky
Member
Every moment of Mr Torgue is beautiful, ear-drum splitting perfection, y'all are heathens.
I absolutely get people not liking too many pop-culture references in their games - they're not my thing either, I find it really breaks immersion. That being said, Borderlands 2 thankfully didn't have many pop culture references in the main quests, just the side-quests and on the guns. Ditto to The Pre-Sequel. Tales from the Borderlands (wonderful game!) is filled with just as many pop culture references, but nobody has a problem with them. It seems to be that the complaint is really more often more of a Burch issue, than a 'I don't like a pop culture reference issue'.
I remember hearing Burch talking about the pop culture reference quests, and that they were mostly requested by team members ('hey, can we do a Top Gun quest?'), so he'd put them in. If you don't like them, it's not just something to just dog-pile on Burch for.
Ironically, I think Borderlands spawned as many references as it used! The circle is now complete.
I absolutely get people not liking too many pop-culture references in their games - they're not my thing either, I find it really breaks immersion. That being said, Borderlands 2 thankfully didn't have many pop culture references in the main quests, just the side-quests and on the guns. Ditto to The Pre-Sequel. Tales from the Borderlands (wonderful game!) is filled with just as many pop culture references, but nobody has a problem with them. It seems to be that the complaint is really more often more of a Burch issue, than a 'I don't like a pop culture reference issue'.
I remember hearing Burch talking about the pop culture reference quests, and that they were mostly requested by team members ('hey, can we do a Top Gun quest?'), so he'd put them in. If you don't like them, it's not just something to just dog-pile on Burch for.
Ironically, I think Borderlands spawned as many references as it used! The circle is now complete.
flatearthpandas
Member
I don't like dialogue like that generally. Sometimes it works, like in Akibas Trip. I do expect it from any game localized by NISA but it wouldn't keep me from playing a game I would otherwise enjoy. It would just make the complete package less enjoyable.
It is impossible to have Homestar Runner and Terrible Meme in the same place.Guacamelee is full of terrible meme references
You are hurting the balance of the universe by doing that.
flatearthpandas
Member
You don't have to be a BAFTA award winning writer to criticize the BAFTA nominations. Not sure how making a personal attack was a funny, brilliant, or on-point way to respond.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Well, IMO Burch was being a dick. Nobody is saying Burch had to go out there and praise them, but he was very specifically mocking FC3. If you wanna criticize people on a public forum, don't be shocked when somebody holds up a mirror.
If anybody was being childish here it was Burch, shitting on somebody for no good reason as they're getting an award.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
"People in a glass house" is a bad type argument hardly better than something like "you can't criticize if you've never made it yourself".
And imagine how obnoxious it would be if somebody told Ryan Davis that.
That Schrodinger's Cat and the Legend of the Lost Quark warns you of impending cheese with its name, like a brightly colored animal with a venomous sting. I can't remember many of the specifics, but that game was basically a new Bubsy with better gameplay. I found myself constantly annoyed by the dialogue.
tl;dr - A game's title can have similar effects and shouldn't be brushed off.
tl;dr - A game's title can have similar effects and shouldn't be brushed off.
Agreed. Kid Icarus: Uprising's primary problem was that it never shut up. Pit and the other characters' banter was fun at first but I started to get sick of it around Chapter 10. And then it just kept going.
Mostmanlyman
Member
I really liked borderlands 1 and was excited for 2 but it didn't feel like the first. The first kinda felt like a mad max type humor, where everyone was just crazy and weird. Then in 2 it was more meme and references.
sir_kevith
Member
Cant stand shit like in borderlands 2 and i only watched videos to see examples. Id never play anything like that.
Didnt mind the in-jokes in Kid Icarus or Metal Gear and stuff but the internet meme references are garbage. Its like if you were to watch the Office wedding episode where they reference the viral video of the dance wedding. After a year its just stupid and lazy.
Didnt mind the in-jokes in Kid Icarus or Metal Gear and stuff but the internet meme references are garbage. Its like if you were to watch the Office wedding episode where they reference the viral video of the dance wedding. After a year its just stupid and lazy.
Why is it okay for Burch to take shots at the Farcry writers but not okay for Ryan to take shots at Burch?
Also, I'm fine with memes. They occasionally make me laugh.
Pretty much.
The Baron Count
Member
Wasn't really trying to defend him necessarily. I guess I just think they were both being kind of snotty. I just think it's a tad different to criticize a game versus actually insulting a human being, but I certainly acknowledge that Burch was being a dick. As I said, while I like the guy alright, it wouldn't be the first time he had been an asshole.
However responding in kind to a snotty remark doesn't make your own any less snotty. I don't think that looked very good on Davis part, but yet again, I won't judge the guy for it. Clearly he was very well loved.
The Etrian games have been weird about this lately. Etrian Mystery Dungeon has lines with some NPCs screaming about their FEEEEEEEEELS (that's pretty much how it appears in-game) like blabbering dummies. Partly made me wonder if the script was written in 2011/2012 or something.
Then Untold 2 has other references, like Cass the bartender thinking a quest-giver will probably be forever alone, which is easy to overlook, but then another quip from him straight-up quotes the outtakes that Joshua Tomar did while voicing Dojima in Sapphire's Persona 4 comic dub. That's like, next-level obscure, and the only reason why I caught it was because I had recently rewatched the series. The latter two don't bother me, but they do make me wonder about how many more I could've missed.
Then Untold 2 has other references, like Cass the bartender thinking a quest-giver will probably be forever alone, which is easy to overlook, but then another quip from him straight-up quotes the outtakes that Joshua Tomar did while voicing Dojima in Sapphire's Persona 4 comic dub. That's like, next-level obscure, and the only reason why I caught it was because I had recently rewatched the series. The latter two don't bother me, but they do make me wonder about how many more I could've missed.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I never noticed that stuff in Guacamelee, too busy suplexing lol.
When the meme references are in text or spoken dialogue it's kind of off-putting, but I haven't played many English-language games lately. That kind of humor has a short lifespan
Atlus USA localization is pretty hit or miss. I remember Etrian 3 or 4 had the weapon shop NPC talking about her lady boner
When the meme references are in text or spoken dialogue it's kind of off-putting, but I haven't played many English-language games lately. That kind of humor has a short lifespan
Atlus USA localization is pretty hit or miss. I remember Etrian 3 or 4 had the weapon shop NPC talking about her lady boner
John Kowalski
Banned
burch is like the not crazy phil fish
i like em both
and i liked the writing and the acting in BL2? maybe i'm the crazy one
i like em both
and i liked the writing and the acting in BL2? maybe i'm the crazy one
Davis thought Burch was upset his game didn't get the nomination, but if you know the guy somewhat, it's pretty clear he made that comment more as a gamer than writer.
Oh, and to be clear, I very much dislike reference humor of any kind in any medium, it's never made me drop a game though.
Oh, and to be clear, I very much dislike reference humor of any kind in any medium, it's never made me drop a game though.
The Baron Count
Member
That was kind of my train of thought as well. I do think he should have been more mindful of his position at the time. That could certainly be seen as shit flinging on his part or sour grapes I guess, but yeah, if you know anything at all about him then you know he is very opinionated on games and events going on in the industry.
Green Mamba
Member
I have a fairly low tolerance but I can get past them. I think the only meme reference I thought was funny was in Persona 4, mostly because it caught me off guard:
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
I can take the bad jokes.
I can't take the preachy social crap that the characters start ranting about. That made me shut off the game.
soooo... you're angry you keep getting "friendzoned", and angrier that someone told you via joke that "friendzoning" is whiny nonsense
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Sorry, that's a Photoshop.Hate on Guacamelee all you want, but it had the best reference of all time hidden within.
It ain't the wolf.