Support NeoGAF

[MjFrancis]

Just for a little context, this pie chart breaks down federal spending while failing to account for state, county, or city spending.

 

[empty vessel]

Unsurprisingly, this is completely 100% untrue.

Teachers aren't responsible for school successes either I guess. Home schoolling ftw. The Tea Party will be pleased.

Teachers can be important, but when you have a society that imposes economic and social instability on a good chunk of the population, you will have a population--particularly its poorest--that fails to learn, regardless of any other factors. Our problem is the maintenance of extreme inequality and inadequate social welfare, period. Nothing--not the best teachers, not giving schools more money--will educate children being raised in these conditions.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Any solution that doesn't involve getting rid of state curriculum, and not a universal FEDERAL standard fails before it begins

 

[ScOULaris]

The problem with America's education is nobody in America really wants to be educated.

This is the post that I agree with most with in this thread. It's a societal/cultural issue. Firing "bad" teachers or raising salaries won't make kids want to be traditionally educated any more than they do now. Standardization in general has also been taken way too far in our country at this point, which has lessened the encouragement for divergent thinking.

Kids who want an education can take advantage of our public school system and come out of it intelligent, laterally thinking members of society. The problem is that the number of kids who want to be educated dwindles every year as they have more distractions than ever and less consequences for laziness and illusions of entitlement.

The issue is incredibly complex, however, so I could never narrow it down to one primary cause for our educational system's decline.

 

[Zaptruder]

this is from the Aus Curriculum Zap

Students develop ICT competence when they learn to:

Investigate with ICT: using ICT to plan and refine information searches; to locate and access different types of data and information and to verify the integrity of data when investigating questions, topics or problems

Create with ICT: using ICT to generate ideas, plans, processes and products to create solutions to challenges or learning area tasks

Communicate with ICT: using ICT to communicate ideas and information with others adhering to social protocols appropriate to the communicative context (purpose, audience and technology)

Operate ICT: applying technical knowledge and skills to use ICT efficiently and to manage data and information when and as needed

Apply appropriate social and ethical protocols and practices to operate and manage ICT.


close to what you want?

Assuming that ICT is short for internet communications technology, then yeah, absolutely.

Better yet, that kind of education would be embedded into the fabric of the rest of the stuff we teach, rather than have it be an explicit rote curriculum that's set aside from other stuff. If they had this stuff, and the other parts of the curriculum worked in such a way as to assume that this stuff was properly learnt, then that would probably be the best outcome.

 

[Zaptruder]

I'm pretty sure they've been trying to make that game since the early 90's with only a few successes (Typing of the Dead, Oregon Trail) super complex ideas like limits and vectors don't seem to mesh well with video games kids would want to play

That stuff is so small fry it's not even funny. I'm talking a game with a proper budget. Not even a game, but an interactive virtual classroom system with game like incentivizing mechanisms.

Avatars, loot, rewards, the whole shebang.

Sorry. Teachers unions say no. (My experience. This holds true for most disruptive policies.) What next? Do you try to convince them that this is the future, try it in charter or private schools, or try it in foreign countries?

You're going to have to give me more information on why you think they'd say no. Are all teachers unions in lock step at a federal level? I don't know; I'm not american, nor do I have a good pulse on the bearacracy of the education system.

If not, then aren't there more progressive states in which to trial this stuff?

 

[The Technomancer]

IMO the biggest problem fundamentally comes down to this: there aren't enough good teachers to teach the students. Even if you get rid of the bad teachers, thats just going to stretch the good teachers thinner. I don't think we have squadrons of good teachers in the wings just waiting to swoop in as soon as we deal with the bad ones.

Not sure what the solution to this is. Better education education probably, but even then being a good teacher is more of a talent then a taught skill.

Also students lack motivation. I honestly don't know if American students are more apathetic then their European counterparts, so I don't want to make that the crux of my argument, but damn are they apathetic.

 

[3rdman]

Let's start by eliminating those retarded standardized tests that encourage teachers to teach a body of facts and steps to solve problems.

This...I've said my peace about Florida's system but with all the crap teacher's unions are getting, it's been on mind a lot lately.

Here in Florida (and thanks to another Bush: Jeb) we have a system which is geared solely toward defunding and shifting funds from public schools to private.

He instituted a "voucher" system that allows parents to take a check for funds that would normally go to a public school to be used as tuition at a private school. Along with this, we have the dreaded FCAT...a standardized test which marries school funding with the schools grade. A low grade means less money and the bad schools end up in a catch-22 where they can't use funds for better teachers or computers.

Another side effect to the FCAT is that teachers no longer worry about anything else other than getting a passing grade from the state because their very livelihood and that of their school is on the line.

To further defund the system, Jeb also changed they way the state pays it's counties for schooling...before he came to town, the funds were divided to the counties on a population basis...Schools in urban locations (Miami-Dade) got more money since they also have more kids and generate most of the tax revenue. Make's sense, right?

Well, Jeb changed that to an even distribution of funds to all counties...His constituents love this, of course. Rural counties (that always vote republican) were now flush with cash...they get new football fields, computers, uniforms, etc while urban districts (that generally vote democratic) see their funding dry up and they remain shorthanded.

Now every time I hear about "great ideas" like the voucher system, I roll my eyes...it's all political and it's all about pleasing their base. So to sum it up...Jeb sucks dick.

 

[thefro]

I think there needs to be two different tracks, one for Parents who care about their kids (college track) and the other for Parents who could care less (specialized trades).

Get the disruptive kids out of the classroom and ship them to military school or something.

There needs to be teacher peer review and mentoring so bad teachers (i.e. my tenth grade English teacher where we colored and watched Jerry Springer) get kicked out of the system.

 

[AndyD]

I hate when people quote this.The girl wasn't stupid, she was just nervous as shit and couldn't think.

People just jumped on because of "LOL Bimbo!".

Actually she was the same if not worse on Amazing Race. Where we saw her for hours over the whole season. So nervousness was not all of it although I am sure it played a part. And her model boyfriend was actually worse than her.

As to OT, in the grand scheme, there is no silver bullet. A combination of change in culture, change in teacher pay and quality and elimination or changing of standardized tests along with changing the college admission model is what's needed.

I grew up in Europe and moved to the US halfway through basic education. I was stunned to find I had done far more science, history, foreign language and math education than my peers by several grades in some disciplines.

Then moving to college and grad school it seems like basic standardized tests do not actually test your knowledge or anything you have actually learned, but they are simple logic/vocabulary gate keepers or sorting mechanisms. Topic specific testing like the SAT2s should be far more important as those actually test your education in that specific field.

 

[JGS]

The Florida things sounds horrible, but I also think that bad schools should close before more money is given to them.

Rural areas, there's not much that can be done, but metro areas could easily combine some schools. At a minimum, the state should figure out some way to hijack instruction since a failing school is faikling at instruction.

It's not necessarily a good thing for schools to be based on geographic location anyway.

 

[empty vessel]

It's not necessarily a good thing for schools to be based on geographic location anyway.

This is true, but it's also not exactly practical to have kids criss-crossing all over the city to attend school. Many simply couldn't do it. And closing failing schools won't solve anything either. Once again, the problem with schools isn't schools. It's our economically and socially dysfunctional society.

 

[AndyD]

This is true, but it's also not exactly practical to have kids criss-crossing all over the city to attend school. Many simply couldn't do it. And closing failing schools won't solve anything either. Once again, the problem with schools isn't schools. It's our economically and socially dysfunctional society.

Right. If anything it would be cheaper operationally to have smaller schools closer to communities. It builds a relationship and community support in a different way than if your kids are bused to an hour away school.

Some school districts have as their highest expense the gas for buses, now that gas is so high. So eliminating that by reducing the coverage of a school makes sense. Funds that can be reoriented to pay teachers better and increase their quality.

 

[GhaleonQ]

You're going to have to give me more information on why you think they'd say no. Are all teachers unions in lock step at a federal level? I don't know; I'm not american, nor do I have a good pulse on the bearacracy of the education system.

If not, then aren't there more progressive states in which to trial this stuff?

They're not in lockstep, and some are definitely less hostile.

However, I'm not sure how useful discussing it would be if you aren't from here. That's fine, I just wanted to press you on what seems like a useful solution.

As with most reform programs, the most common tactic is to approve a pilot program, then cap its spending, and then say that results are inconclusive and refuse to fund an expansion.

http://educationnext.org/floridas-online-option Speaking of Florida.

Now every time I hear about "great ideas" like the voucher system, I roll my eyes...it's all political and it's all about pleasing their base. So to sum it up...Jeb sucks dick.

If students creamed, why did test scores go up over Bush's tenure? I don't think the man's a saint, but it seems like you have to explain it. http://educationnext.org/demography-as-destiny-2/

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Something about this culture idolizes stupidity. We just love to watch fucktards make idiots of themselves on reality TV. We adore the stupidity in our culture.

Growing up in school I've seen this a lot. Smart kids are looked upon unfavorably. Caring or liking school just simply isn't cool. The kids with the I don't give a fuck attitude are often the popular ones and they just drag down the others.

Fortunately in high school I certainly wised up and chose the right social group. There were the kids who couldn't be bothered with school in the slightest inside or outside the classroom. Then there were the kids who were still very social and popular, but was actually willing to do a little homework at home or ask questions in class.

Point is, there is just something about us that looks favorably upon carefree stupidity while effort is looked upon as a waste of time. Achievement isn't appreciated anymore.

 

[AndyD]

They're not in lockstep, and some are definitely less hostile.

However, I'm not sure how useful discussing it would be if you aren't from here. That's fine, I just wanted to press you on what seems like a useful solution.

As with most reform programs, the most common tactic is to approve a pilot program, then cap its spending, and then say that results are inconclusive and refuse to fund an expansion.

http://educationnext.org/floridas-online-option Speaking of Florida.



If students creamed, why did test scores go up over Bush's tenure? I don't think the man's a saint, but it seems like you have to explain it. http://educationnext.org/demography-as-destiny-2/

Test scores may simply mean more students were taught to the test. Its not necessarily a great thing and many point out that its actually harming students as they don't get taught the critical skills they need for a proper higher education/employment.

 

[StealthGoblin]

2) Force more mandatory parental involvement. Weekly or bi weekly communication between parents and teachers (if assistances are needed, so be it). Parents should sign off on homework and grades. Teachers would provide homework schedules, student updates. Offer for parent volunteer opportunities could be included.

3) Restructure and streamline the administrative levels. Too much money is being wasted at this level for poor management and educational planning.

5) With a national curriculum, book companies then would be able to make one set of books for all states to use, making purchasing cheaper. (This would eliminate states like Texas setting the education goal for other states and having piece of history rewritten to meet their local standards).

6) Along with reading, writing, arithmetic, science, and history, extra activities like sports, band, arts, mechanics, electronics, computers, economics should be made available and and a minimum of these should be required.

7) In states with heavy bilingual needs more bilingual teaching assistants. A balance need to be struck between mainstream bilingual students and not slowing down the rest of the class to accommodate them.

8) Special needs children need to be evaluated on a case by case bases. Not all can and should be mainstreamed into classes. Those that are should be assigned a education helper who assist the teachers. Progress of these students should be tracked separately from the main body (unless deemed otherwise).

All of this already happens in the UK. I'm genuinely surprised that this doesn't occur very much in the US (if it doesn't). I'm far from an expert on US education.

The school I'm working at (at a Primary level) in the UK is very good.

The school gets parents involved by inviting them in for community events (Mass, drama productions, competitions, school fetes) and then having the teachers keep records of homework and reading activities. We have a reading record that goes home with the children daily that lets parents know how they are getting on in school with reading (they read to the teacher/teaching assistant once a week) and then we post all homework on the school website, giving out paper sheets to those without internet access.

It is the parents responsibility to check off the childrens homework and make a note in their journal so the teacher can be made aware of any issues. The teacher can then cross reference this with the actual homework they are marking and pick up any issues they find.

As for our subjects, we teach Maths, English and Science as our 'core' subjects with ICT as a primary supporting subject. Then we also schedule lessons in Geography, Religion, Ethics/Citizenship, History, PE, Art, Design and Technology and Music every week so that the activities the children are partaking in feel 'fresh'. We do a lot of cross curricular activities (studying Dinosaurs in History, making Dinosaur collages in Art, writing non-chronological texts in English about dinosaurs etc) to give themes to specific terms/half terms.

The school is situated in Essex and as such we have a lot of foreign intake. We have Polish, Nigerian, South African, German, Kenyan etc children and we have many different nationalities in the same class. The school has translators and specially hired in teaching assistants with specialities in that langauge to help students. I'd say the school has been very sucessful in integrating our EAL (English as an Aditional Langauge) students.

We have a SENCO (Special Educational Needs CO-ordinator) that is present in school 5 days a week in a non-teaching position. The SENCO is responsible for helping the gifted and talented pupils achieve higher levels of education, while also helping the teachers and teaching assistants plan lessons and activities to help the children of lower ability.

Our Head Teacher and Deputy Head Teachers are present in a non-teaching capacity. They were both teachers before taking those roles and they manage the school very effectively as they understand both the office roles a school requires as well as the pressures of being a teacher. We have three Assistant Head Teachers all in teaching roles, strategically placed throughout the school (Infants/Keystage 1), Year 3 (Lower Keystage 2) and in Year 6 (Upper Key Stage 2).

All teaching staff are given laptops to help manage the work flow. In addition teachers are given PPA (Planning, preparation and assessment) time during school hours (lessons are covered by a HILTA - HIgher Level Teaching Assistant) or one of the dedicated PPA teachers. During PPA time the teachers are able to lesson plan, mark work and prepare activities for the children to complete).

Testing is at Year 6 (SAT level - Key Stage 2), Year 2, and we do school prepared tests in every other year to keep track of what the children have picked up.

Overall it works rather well. How different is that from US schooling?

 

[JoeBoy101]

4) The federal government needs to not only establish education goals/test, they need to set a national curriculum guidelines for all states to follow. State administrators should be there to carry out the national curriculum and run the day to day operations of schools. Stop changing the curriculum teachers are to used every other year to test out one ever changing philosophy of how it is best to teach.

5) With a national curriculum, book companies then would be able to make one set of books for all states to use, making purchasing cheaper. (This would eliminate states like Texas setting the education goal for other states and having piece of history rewritten to meet their local standards).

I like the cut of your jib, Junior. Almost all of those are great and one of the better comprehensive responses to the education issue here in the US.

But I gotta throw the flag on these two. Part of the problem with our schools is the homogenization and lowest common denominator teaching that occurs because of standardized testing and federal funding being tied to it. Similar to your case on special needs kids, teachers need flexibility in their classrooms to accelerate/complicate a curriculum if the class is doing well or decelerate/simplify it if the class if having problems. We need to put basic benchmarks in place for testing to make sure students are at an adequate level to advance in grade, but these benchmarks need to be realistic to avoid grade inflation. So long as the benchmarks are made and students advance, the teacher should have the freedom and say about the specific curriculum.

 

[3rdman]

If students creamed, why did test scores go up over Bush's tenure? I don't think the man's a saint, but it seems like you have to explain it. http://educationnext.org/demography-as-destiny-2/

People adapt...It's that simple. Teachers began "teaching to the FCAT" and many schools began to get better ratings but so what? The actual FCAT has, over time, lowered their bar...exceptions were made for schools with high non-english speaking students, etc. In other words, people work the system in an effort to save their jobs and (more importantly) their legacy.

Jeb wants to be pres one day and he sure as shit won't be able to run on a failed education policy...the work to lay down the intellectual argument for his "success" begins with studies such as the one you pointed out...Did you read the last line of the article?

Matthew Ladner is vice president for policy at the Goldwater Institute. Dan Lips is senior policy analyst at the Heritage Foundation.

 

[Escape Goat]

Education is only part of the problem. Its socio-economic issues. And I wouldn't even know where to begin with that. I'm not sure anyone has a sufficient grip on all the issues involved to say what should be done. And as such nothing has been done.

 

[Azih]

Man the Canadian system holds up incredibly well when compared to others world wide. I'm glad the public school system is so strong here.

 

[Cimarron]

Teachers only get paid 9 months a year, as mentioned in the same link you posted with the hourly salary. Looking at hourly wage is deceptive due to the fact that they only get 3/4 of the annual salary that such a wage would suggest.

3/4 of $34.06 is $25.55, which puts them with the average white collar worker, but with a much higher chance of doing work at home as unpaid overtime.

Therefore, teachers are not overpaid.

I think they are fairly compensated for the most part. I hate when people just look at your take home pay as how much you are compensated. Tenure, summer vacation, pensions, etc.... are also part of your "pay". So yeah they are compensated enough. In some districts I would say too much.

With that said I believe teachers are not the only problem. They are probably my least concern. I am more interested in things like length of school day/year, teaching resources and supplies, and PARENTING!!!

 

[StealthGoblin]

Are teachers in the US really only paid for 9 months of the year? Bugger that.

In the UK we get paid for all 12 months, and as a NQT, I get a pay-rise every year (for 6 years) if my reviews go well. By then I'll likely be eligible for a higher pay bracket anyway.

The head teacher for my school is on £106,000 a year.

 

[JGS]

This is true, but it's also not exactly practical to have kids criss-crossing all over the city to attend school. Many simply couldn't do it. And closing failing schools won't solve anything either. Once again, the problem with schools isn't schools. It's our economically and socially dysfunctional society.

That's true, but in my admittedly smaller city, a good school can literally be right next to a bad school.

Close the bad school, give the additional funding to the good school to handle the influx Of course, this would need to be parceled out over a few schools. It's not practical or realistic to double a school's population.

Giving more money to a bad school makes no sense because public money by itself won't solve it and most of the reasons it's in that shape stays the same. Blaming parents fixes nothing and out of everyone in the education system, the ones who aren't in it (parents) are the least culpable anyway.

The only other option is to force the bad schools to copy the good ones, but that's standardization too and won't carry over because the parents of those schools help fund the education. The way to overcome that is to have poorer kids integrated with the wealthier ones which again goes back to the need of closing bad schools in order to implement that.

 

[Tamanon]

Teachers can generally choose to get paid over 12 months instead of 9 months, but then they just lower the monthly wage to compensate.

I wonder if education might not be better served by adding more of a business model to it. One where teachers are more involved with students, both in educational ways and in methods of reviewing students. It would involve a ton more teachers, but the benefit would be more individualized education plans, a continuous path, kind of like a review system that most corporations use, more interaction. A lot of times with students, it's almost impossible to tell why they are failing, or how close they are to understanding due to classroom size.

 

[Count Dookkake]

1) Bring back the dunce cap.

2) Don't waste resources on kids who don't want to learn.

3) Minimize group projects; only have them with strict chain-of-command.

4) Don't get in the way of smart or ambitious students.

5) Add media studies and critical analysis to earlier grades of study. The earlier, the better.

 

[Rikyfree]

Meh. It still won't override a case when a teacher really needs to be gone. So you're not right.

It also keeps teachers from being fired for inconvenient things like suspending an asshole kid, giving a kid a poor grade so the parent howls for blood etc. Loads of capricious stuff can pop up that a teacher shouldn't have to worry about.

This guy is right. My mother is a teacher, has won teacher of the year at her school, and has been at the job over 30 years. You would not believe how many asshole parents cry foul because little Susie happened to lie about doing an assignment and then cry for her blood. She has tenure and I can tell you that not once has she been wrong about that stuff. Without tenure you risk asshole parents thinking that their snowflake can do no wrong and end up getting a great teacher fired.

 

[FLEABttn]

Blaming parents fixes nothing and out of everyone in the education system, the ones who aren't in it (parents) are the least culpable anyway.

Until there's a change in parenting and social attitudes towards education, the solutions seem like a shell game. Open schools, close schools, move kids around, more money, less money, union busting, increased salary, less administration, required extra-curriculars, signed progress reports (lol?).

It's a shell game.

 

[Zzoram]

Teachers are rarely a problem. It's almost always students not putting in the effort. There are too many distractions for kids, and the cultural pressure to be lazy or else you're uncool is perhaps the biggest problem.

In the US, sports is the most celebrated thing at every school. That's so fucked up. There should be awards and parties and cash prizes and special field trips for top achieving students to get students to care and compete with each other for the best marks. The best students should be celebrated and rewarded more than the best athletes.

 

[JGS]

Until there's a change in parenting and social attitudes towards education, the solutions seem like a shell game. Open schools, close schools, move kids around, more money, less money, union busting, increased salary, less administration, required extra-curriculars, signed progress reports (lol?).

It's a shell game.

You described all the problems with it, but fixing the education system is as simple as going back and learning how to teach kids. It's not that difficult except everyone's blaming everybody else and thinking money in and of itself will take care of things. Forget that no one actually knows what to do with the money. That much is clear.

Parents need to be involved in their kids schooling, but they should/cannot not be an extention of it. Many parents aren't even smart enough to handle that kind of responsibility, but teacher who, by and large, hold Master degrees do. That's what their paid for. Many school administrators are former teachers, so they know how as well.

The extent a parent should be involved in school is making sure the kids do their homework, joining the PTA, or paying for lunch. I don't even get why it's even considered a smart thing to do given the whacky ideas parents have.

They are not equipped for anything more than that overall and it's unfair to place that burden on them.

 

[Zzoram]

This guy is right. My mother is a teacher, has won teacher of the year at her school, and has been at the job over 30 years. You would not believe how many asshole parents cry foul because little Susie happened to lie about doing an assignment and then cry for her blood. She has tenure and I can tell you that not once has she been wrong about that stuff. Without tenure you risk asshole parents thinking that their snowflake can do no wrong and end up getting a great teacher fired.

This. The best teachers are tough but fair. The pushovers that give everyone A's may make parents happy but they're terrible for learning. The easier the class, the less seriously students take it and the less work they do.

Parental involvement at home is great. Parental involvement at schools is often not, since it usually boils down to putting pressure on the administration to make tough classes easier so their dumb lazy kid gets an A in AP math.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Are teachers in the US really only paid for 9 months of the year? Bugger that.

In the UK we get paid for all 12 months, and as a NQT, I get a pay-rise every year (for 6 years) if my reviews go well. By then I'll likely be eligible for a higher pay bracket anyway.

The head teacher for my school is on £106,000 a year.

No, teachers are paid a yearly salary and that is spread out over 12 months. They also have the option of working summer school where they can be paid 25 dollars an hour (4 hours a day) to further supplement their income.

The amount of pay they get is based on their location in the country and their level of education. So, a teacher with a Masters degree, working in a well-funded area, can make 60-80k a year.

 

[FLEABttn]

fixing the education system is as simple as going back and learning how to teach kids.

Which is what?

I just find it to be too magical an answer that Danville, CA schools are fantastic, Oakland, CA schools are crap, and it's simply because the one knows how to teach to kids and the other doesn't.

Or in my current locale, the NE schools in ABQ are good, the SW ones aren't, and it's because there's some 5 mile difference that makes a difference between if a teacher knows how to teach kids or not?

It's socioeconomic.

 

[StealthGoblin]

No, teachers are paid a yearly salary and that is spread out over 12 months. They also have the option of working summer school where they can be paid 25 dollars an hour (4 hours a day) to further supplement their income.

The amount of pay they get is based on their location in the country and their level of education. So, a teacher with a Masters degree, working in a well-funded area, can make 60-80k a year.

Thats good to hear. I was surprised at the 9 months thing to say the least.

Our pay is location based too, but there are pay brackets for an area. I haven't looked into doing summer school (its only 6 weeks anyway) placements yet. I'd probably go nuts if I did. Haha.

 

[From The Dust]

at my old high school, the problem for us was there were too many people who didn't want to be their. a lot of my teachers think that No Child Left Behind is what's causing most of our problems. the students are more or less forced to be at school, where they act like assholes, causing other students to underperform.

I say if you don't want to be there, don't come. the classes would be much smaller and would be fuller of people who actually give a shit

 

[TheUsual]

I hear this from my father a lot, it's not necessarily bad teachers, but a lot of teachers don't get the backing of school administration for anything. A teacher tries to discipline a student, gets no backing from administration. Administrators who have barely taught in the classroom and now are dictating how classes should be taught. In the end, teachers have given up trying to improve the classroom because they don't any backing at all. Rules are constantly changing.

I need to ask him more about what he sees. (Trust me, he has his own beef with teachers as well. Mainly teachers who give scantron exams: he does the old school, kids have to fill it out and he grades them all by hand)

 

[Future]

Education is only part of the problem. Its socio-economic issues. And I wouldn't even know where to begin with that. I'm not sure anyone has a sufficient grip on all the issues involved to say what should be done. And as such nothing has been done.

This. Education is just an easy place to put blame. Besides the high cost of higher education, I don't see any obvious issues that need to get immediately fixed.

 

[empty vessel]

Which is what?

I just find it to be too magical an answer that Danville, CA schools are fantastic, Oakland, CA schools are crap, and it's simply because the one knows how to teach to kids and the other doesn't.

Or in my current locale, the NE schools in ABQ are good, the SW ones aren't, and it's because there's some 5 mile difference that makes a difference between if a teacher knows how to teach kids or not?

It's socioeconomic.

Right. It's a ridiculous explanation, but it has the virtue of not requiring that anything be done.

 

[JGS]

Which is what?

I just find it to be too magical an answer that Danville, CA schools are fantastic, Oakland, CA schools are crap, and it's simply because the one knows how to teach to kids and the other doesn't.

Or in my current locale, the NE schools in ABQ are good, the SW ones aren't, and it's because there's some 5 mile difference that makes a difference between if a teacher knows how to teach kids or not.

It's socioeconomic.

Magic has nothing to do with it. That is exactly what's happening. I will add though that the student plays as much a role in the learning process so that plays a role too. The parents foster that, but they can't replace a good teacher since they are not teachers. Teachers are absolutely vital to improving the school. Their ability has nothing to do with the tools at hand since good teacher taught in far worse conditions.

Bad schools systems are a direct result of not knowing how to teach for their environment. Good teaching also involves motivation and a bad school has no motivation from anyone so of course it's going to fail.

If the environment is so bad as to prohibit learning for most of the students (There are always good students no matter how bad the school), you get out of the environment because you sure ain't going to change it.

 

[Zoe]

I'd like to see high schools implementing into their curricula personal finance/micro-enomic courses. how to write a check, basics of banking, the taxation system, etc. How many students really need to learn calculus? I remember taking it in high school, getting an A, then quickly forgetting all about it and never again using it. I would rather have had spent that time learning something actually practical.

You didn't have to take an economics class to graduate? One of our final assignments in there was filling out a tax form.

 

[empty vessel]

Magic has nothing to do with it. That is exactly what's happening. I will add though that the student plays as much a role in the learning process so that plays a role too. The parents foster that, but they can't replace a good teacher since they are not teachers. Teachers are absolutely vital to improving the school. Their ability has nothing to do with the tools at hand since good teacher taught in far worse conditions.

Let me rephrase your point: All other things being equal, teachers are absolutely vital to improving the school. Teachers cannot overcome dysfunctional environments. And that is what our society has maintained for a large chunk of our populace. Quite intentionally.

Bad schools systems are a direct result of not knowing how to teach for their environment. Good teaching also involves motivation and a bad school has no motivation from anyone so of course it's going to fail.

If the environment is so bad as to prohibit learning for most of the students (There are always good students no matter how bad the school), you get out of the environment because you sure ain't going to change it.

How can everybody in an environment get out of it? That's just not feasible. It's fantastical. It's like suggesting that the solution to poverty is for everybody to become a CEO. It requires a blatant disregard of reality.

 

[FLEABttn]

Bad schools systems are a direct result of not knowing how to teach for their environment. Good teaching also involves motivation and a bad school has no motivation from anyone so of course it's going to fail.

If the environment is so bad as to prohibit learning for most of the students (There are always good students no matter how bad the school), you get out of the environment because you sure ain't going to change it.

So, a different teaching style is required to coax good grades out of poor hispanic kids as opposed to upper middle class white kids?

 

[soldat7]

Parents need to be involved in their children's schoolwork, but really that's only half the battle. Parents need to teach values, morals, and good habits and behaviors. We're not raising academic robots here, we're raising the next generation, citizens of communities, and contributors to society. We need to cultivate within them a passion for learning, for exploring, and for experimenting. We need to stop forcing activities on them and let them grow and develop within proper boundaries. Both helicopter and inactive parent alike can cause significant long-term harm.

 

[Escape Goat]

I have friends who teach in the Indianapolis Public School system and they can teach these kids from now until doomsday. But without reinforcement at home its a lost cause. Some of these parents don't have an education and so they don't value it now. Some don't have parents and have grandma who isn't physically up to being a parent again. Some have one parent and they're working all the time so they get no reinforcement at home. So they have to find the few with actual futures and do their best to set them on a path to success.

It is heart breaking to hear most parents don't even show up for parent-teacher conferences. Discipline in the classroom is a chore because these kids have none at home. And on top of that the IPS is laying off teachers like crazy.

 

[StealthGoblin]

You didn't have to take an economics class to graduate? One of our final assignments in there was filling out a tax form.

We have nothing like that in the UK.

We have business studies, but thats an optional subject for most secondary schools.

 

[JGS]

So, a different teaching style is required to coax good grades out of poor hispanic kids as opposed to upper middle class white kids?

Note quite, but consider the options. The primary (only imo) purpose of school is to educate a kid. If it fails at that, then there is no point to it, no matter whose to blame.

You either have different teaching styles or a standardiztion of the education which the hispanic kids would take to or not as the options.
No matter how you slice it, you have the 2 options.

1. Customization. This does not work. Period. Middle and upper classes will adapt to whatever is placed in front of them. However, there is not enough interest or ablity to taylor education to the poorer classes. This includes the students and parents of those areas. You could give a school a billion dollars and it won't change a thing unless you actually move the kids in there away from the environment.

2. Standardization. Closing a bad school and moving the kids to a news school is tantamount to this as they have to adapt to the learning curve of the successful model or get the boot. This sucks for the good school since their number will drop on the onset but will be beneficial for the overall school disctrict. Standardization means a bunch of other things too. Tests, standard curriculum across all schools, discipline, required courses, required levels of homework, & even required parental involvement.

Having a hood school in the hood is destined to failure. It's been that way for decades now.

Parents need to be involved in their children's schoolwork, but really that's only half the battle. Parents need to teach values, morals, and good habits and behaviors. We're not raising academic robots here, we're raising the next generation, citizens of communities, and contributors to society. We need to cultivate within them a passion for learning, for exploring, and for experimenting. We need to stop forcing activities on them and let them grow and develop within proper boundaries. Both helicopter and inactive parent alike can cause significant long-term harm.

This is the primary things parents should be concerned about - raising there kids to be good citizens regardless of their job status.

When parents do this, their kids do better in school even if the parent is academically smart themselves. My parents were smart (My grandmother was a chemist to boot) but the extent of their assistance in schoolwork was "Do your schoolwork and you better not have a bad grade."

 

[CountScary]

The problem with the American education system is not the system itself - it's that many parents here think "Hey, drop my kids off at school, they should come out at the end of the assembly line educated and ready for success!" and do nothing to foster their education at home.

If you're not asking your kids what they are studying, reading with them, and trying to work on some of what they get in school at home, you're doing it wrong.

 

[empty vessel]

Note quite, but consider the options. The primary (only imo) purpose of school is to educate a kid. If it fails at that, then there is no point to it, no matter whose to blame.

You either have different teaching styles or a standardiztion of the education which the hispanic kids would take to or not as the options.
No matter how you slice it, you have the 2 options.

1. Customization. This does not work. Period. Middle and upper classes will adapt to whatever is placed in front of them. However, there is not enough interest or ablity to taylor education to the poorer classes. This includes the students and parents of those areas. You could give a school a billion dollars and it won't change a thing unless you actually move the kids in there away from the environment.

2. Standardization. Closing a bad school and moving the kids to a news school is tantamount to this as they have to adapt to the learning curve of the successful model or get the boot. This sucks for the good school since their number will drop on the onset but will be beneficial for the overall school disctrict. Standardization means a bunch of other things too. Tests, standard curriculum across all schools, discipline, required courses, required levels of homework, & even required parental involvement.

Having a hood school in the hood is destined to failure. It's been that way for decades now.

Sending the kid from an unstable environment to a different school will solve nothing. The child will be returning to his unstable environment every evening. It is the home environment that must be changed--must be made stable--for education to occur.

 

[Zoe]

We have nothing like that in the UK.

We have business studies, but thats an optional subject for most secondary schools.

We're talking about the US...

 

[CountScary]

Sending the kid from an unstable environment to a different school will solve nothing. The child will be returning to his unstable environment every evening. It is the home environment that must be changed--must be made stable--for education to occur.

Maybe we need more schools where kids can just live 24/7 in the inner city - similar to how some rich kids are sent away to school in high school. Sadly, the best thing we can do for some of these kids is to take them away from their parents.