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[NervousXtian]

I think tastes have changed. No longer will people really put up with random battles, your party in front/enemies in back, turn based, etc.. etc.. etc.. the WRPG approach has transitioned to the HD age much smoother, as they were doing pseudo-3D for years (decades).

The original WRPG approach all the way back to the Gold Box/Bards Tale days easily transitioned as technology advanced. It had a solid base on combat, stats, leveling, loot, game world, etc. They didn't have to limit the overall scope of their games due to budget, time, and hardware the same way JRPG have had too.

As much as I hate speaking of FF13, it's the epitome of limiting scope of a game because expanding the original scope of the series left them to sacrifice too many aspects of what made the prior games great.

The DS/PSP don't have the same issues, because the expectations of what needs to be done to sell aren't as high. You have serious hardware limitations that you have to live with, and in the end sometimes that's not a bad thing. They've done a great job of understanding what the hardware can/can't do, and building the game with that in mind.

 

[jeremy1456]

I think tastes have changed. No longer will people really put up with random battles, your party in front/enemies in back, turn based, etc.. etc.. etc.. the WRPG approach has transitioned to the HD age much smoother, as they were doing pseudo-3D for years (decades).

The original WRPG approach all the way back to the Gold Box/Bards Tale days easily transitioned as technology advanced. It had a solid base on combat, stats, leveling, loot, game world, etc. They didn't have to limit the overall scope of their games due to budget, time, and hardware the same way JRPG have had too.

As much as I hate speaking of FF13, it's the epitome of limiting scope of a game because expanding the original scope of the series left them to sacrifice too many aspects of what made the prior games great.

The DS/PSP don't have the same issues, because the expectations of what needs to be done to sell aren't as high. You have serious hardware limitations that you have to live with, and in the end sometimes that's not a bad thing. They've done a great job of understanding what the hardware can/can't do, and building the game with that in mind.

The new WRPG approach seems to be to make a game that is obviously not an RPG (shooters are the typical choice) and incorporate RPG elements into the game.

Ta-da! Just like that we can advertise our third person shooter as an RPG.

 

[tiff]

The new WRPG approach seems to be to make a game that is obviously not an RPG (shooters are the typical choice) and incorporate RPG elements into the game.

It works because most gamers won't put up with playing real RPGs.

 

[djplaeskool]

Will also parrot the fact that handhelds have carried the banner for JRPGs as of recent. That being said, I have a hard time calling it the worst. For as long as I've been gaming, there have been worthwhile and definitive games in the genre.
Games like Ys 7, Radiant Historia, 7th Dragon, and Trails in the Sky have kept my JRPG fire burning. With a strong list of Japanese devs on board for the Vita, and the cost of console development ever-increasing, this seems to be a trend that will continue.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

If you're not interested in explaining what makes your favorite games your favorites outside of the fact that they just "play well" for you...

Why would I go through the trouble of doing that when it has no bearing on the conversation? Here's specifics if you care.

Now, to address your main point: I will concede that I still do not understand your concept of a "total package." The most common argument (which I incorrectly tied with your own) is that it actually matters to the industry. It is a very common argument against why portable games cannot be considered great like console or PC games. I apologize for thinking this was your opinion.

However, while you consider this a fault of my own I do not see it as such, considering you have not defined the words you continue to repeat as if I should understand the significance and perspective you bestow upon them.

I find it hard to think that you would be able to play Radient Historia and claim it is not creative, technically impressive for the system it is on, with beautiful art and stunning music. It sounds like it fits the definition of your total package perfectly. Also, you claim Persona 4 as a total package yet it's on an old system, and yet you still discard the handhelds. Do you see how different definitions can change, and why I'm confused?

EDIT: Edited for brevity.

 

[kswiston]

This generation is definitely better than the 8-bit generation. It is also not too late to catch last gen in terms of quality (a lot of quintessential jrpgs are released extremely late in a console generation). Sure the number of quality rpgs on consoles has taken a nosedive, but this generation's handheld output is leagues better than any other generation, making up for it.

 

[jeremy1456]

This generation is definitely better than the 8-bit generation. It is also not too late to catch last gen in terms of quality (a lot of quintessential jrpgs are released extremely late in a console generation). Sure the number of quality rpgs on consoles has taken a nosedive, but this generation's handheld output is leagues better than any other generation, making up for it.

Did you ever play Dragon Quest III or IV? Final Fantasy? Phantasy Star? Wonder Boy III? Zelda II: The Adventures of Link?

Thought not. Of course, I'm only comparing console games.

 

[.JayZii]

Did you ever play Dragon Quest III or IV? Final Fantasy? Phantasy Star? Wonder Boy III? Zelda II: The Adventures of Link?

Thought not.

Good grief. Have you played any of those recently? A lot of the games on that list are interesting as a historical curios, but not as great games that have stood the test of time.

 

[jeremy1456]

Good grief. Have you played any of those recently? A lot of the games on that list are interesting as a historical curios, but not as great games that have stood the test of time.

Dragon Quest III and IV absolutely stand the test of time. In fact, due to the ability to set the battle speed they are more playable than many modern RPGs.

The only one that hasn't aged well is Phantasy Star because the dungeons don't have maps, so the real question is, have YOU played any of them recently?

 

[Aeana]

I played Phantasy Star for the first time in 2007, and it immediately became one of my favorite games.

 

[Shouta]

Honestly, the only points you actually have are Earthbound, Chrono Trigger, Phantasy Star IV, Shining Force II and on the other side of your argument, Chrono Cross. It's quite strange that you mentioned an, at best, b-tier RPG (Lufia 2) in your argument.

What? All your arguments are now nulled.

 

[Aeana]

Lufia 2 is absolutely one of my favorite games of all time. It also has some of the best dungeons in any RPG; only the Golden Sun games really give it a run for its money.

 

[randomkid]

Always kind of leery of people who are quick to argue for the indisputable superiority of either SNES/PSX/PS2. I sort of find it impossible to decide which one is best, it depends on my mood. Also you can never tell if people are including Japanese only releases (which they should) or remakes/ports (which is kind of retarded). That's not even getting into throwing Genesis/Saturn/PC/other systems in the mix.

Probably the only folks who could make a fair judgment are people like Aeana or ethelred who've played just about everything.

 

[Aeana]

Always kind of leery of people who are quick to argue for the indisputable superiority of either SNES/PSX/PS2. I sort of find it impossible to decide which one is best, it depends on my mood. Also you can never tell if people are including Japanese only releases (which they should) or remakes/ports (which is kind of retarded). That's not even getting into throwing Genesis/Saturn/PC/other systems in the mix.

Probably the only folks who could make a fair judgment are people like Aeana or ethelred who've played just about everything.

I just laid out some lists of noteworthy RPGs from the SNES and PSX eras for Y2Kev and realized that I couldn't possibly choose between them. Fortunately I don't have to.

Honestly, even if we were to limit this entirely to games only released in North America, they stack up against each other pretty evenly in my mind. For a moment, I was thinking that at least the SNES and PCE CD have more games that would make it into my favorite games of all time list, but even that may come out fairly even in the end.

 

[Big One]

The only one that hasn't aged well is Phantasy Star because the dungeons don't have maps, so the real question is, have YOU played any of them recently?

Gonna have to disagree with this. Phantasy Star is a BLAST to play. Still my favorite of the series, but the other games are good too.

Though yes I do tend to use dungeon maps to help me in that game.

 

[SabinFigaro]

I played the original Phantasy Star not too long ago to completion, and I loved every second of it, lack of map system be damned. It is certainly more than "playable", and I would argue the only game listed that has really suffered due to age is the original Final Fantasy. That being said, most of these games take nothing more than a little bit of patience.

Also, to suggest Lufia II is "b-tier" is quite insulting to one of the best RPGs of past generations.

 

[jeremy1456]

Gonna have to disagree with this. Phantasy Star is a BLAST to play. Still my favorite of the series, but the other games are good too.

Though yes I do tend to use dungeon maps to help me in that game.

See, I still love the game, but I think the lack of maps has made it age.

 

[jeremy1456]

People act like B-tier isn't good.

Perhaps I went overboard when I said 'at best' though.

 

[Appollowexx]

Pretty much.

Also most JRPGs have taken a western influence, aside from a handful pf titles that were deliberatley created in the style of the old school games.

Sucks.

 

[randomkid]

I just laid out some lists of noteworthy RPGs from the SNES and PSX eras for Y2Kev and realized that I couldn't possibly choose between them. Fortunately I don't have to.

Honestly, even if we were to limit this entirely to games only released in North America, they stack up against each other pretty evenly in my mind. For a moment, I was thinking that at least the SNES and PCE CD have more games that would make it into my favorite games of all time list, but even that may come out fairly even in the end.

That's what I'm saying, even my own limited-selection lists feel dead even. People who say it's an easy decision will always get the side-eye from me.

 

[Eusis]

Did you ever play Dragon Quest III or IV? Final Fantasy? Phantasy Star? Wonder Boy III? Zelda II: The Adventures of Link?

We got a great remake of DQIV, and even if that doesn't count DQIX helps make up for III anyway with X presumably still coming along, I'd probably enjoy 4 Heroes of Light more than the original FF now, Phantasy Star was at its best with IV (though I'd play I over II or III nowadays), and, uhh, I just wish there were more games like Wonder Boy III or Zelda II because that was a really nice formula they had going on there. Well, ok, we have Shantae: Risky's Revenge even though it's not a JRPG properly. I think the 8-bit generation's IMPORTANT, I'd go so far as to say it and the 32-bit ones are the most important generations for the genre, but I couldn't seriously go back to most 8-bit RPGs, whereas 32-bit JRPGs are probably the games that aged most gracefully from the PS1 that weren't platformers or Nintendo titles.

 

[jeremy1456]

We got a great remake of DQIV, and even if that doesn't count DQIX helps make up for III anyway with X presumably still coming along, I'd probably enjoy 4 Heroes of Light more than the original FF now, Phantasy Star was at its best with IV (though I'd play I over II or III nowadays), and, uhh, I just wish there were more games like Wonder Boy III or Zelda II because that was a really nice formula they had going on there. Well, ok, we have Shantae: Risky's Revenge even though it's not a JRPG properly. I think the 8-bit generation's IMPORTANT, I'd go so far as to say it and the 32-bit ones are the most important generations for the genre, but I couldn't seriously go back to most 8-bit RPGs, whereas 32-bit JRPGs are probably the games that aged most gracefully from the PS1 that weren't platformers or Nintendo titles.

I was only arguing against someone who was acting as if the 8-bit generation had nothing good in the way of JRPGs.

As an aside, DQIX doesn't 'make up for III' (whatever that's supposed to mean). They are different games.

 

[CurseoftheGods]

Aside from the individual comparison points where I disagree (FFVII is better than VI), the sheer breadth of JRPG releases during the 32-bit era is not represented by your short list and I think it discounts a major strength of the PSX generation. But even discounting that, Suikoden 2 is probably the best RPG on the PSX (and I would take it over every SNES RPG). And there's also Grandia, which is important*. And there's that big mech-Jesusophiliac skeleton in the closet we're ignoring. And if you get Lufia, I get Wild Arms 1.

This ignores the Saturn, where there's 1 or 2 worth mentioning. I've already sort of made this list wars (which I know was not your intent), but Suikoden 2 would need to be on any short list. Certainly ahead of Chrono Cross.

*this is my way of saying i don't like grandia

**i made it through this entire post without making fun of legend of dragoon

y2kev bringing the real talk <3

 

[theMrCravens]

Like some posters have said, it's a huge shame they haven't used XBLA/PSN to sell old-school style 2D jrpgs. (not remakes)

I'm talking about games with no VOs and CGs. All sprites.
A HD Chrono Trigger-style game.

 

[.JayZii]

Dragon Quest III and IV absolutely stand the test of time. In fact, due to the ability to set the battle speed they are more playable than many modern RPGs.

The only one that hasn't aged well is Phantasy Star because the dungeons don't have maps, so the real question is, have YOU played any of them recently?

Yes actually. Over the past year or so I've played all of those except DQ3 for at least a few hours.

I appreciate them in a historical context, but I just don't find any of them (in their original forms, not remakes) entertaining anymore. I think Zelda 2 has probably held up the best.
Sorry if this makes me unqualified to speak on the subject in your eyes, but with nostalgia-vision off, 8-bit role playing games don't have much to offer anymore.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Aeana]

Yes actually. Over the past year or so I've played all of those except DQ3 for at least a few hours.

I appreciate them in a historical context, but I just don't find any of them (in their original forms, not remakes) entertaining anymore. I think Zelda 2 has probably held up the best.
Sorry if this makes me unqualified to speak on the subject in your eyes, but with nostalgia-vision off, 8-bit role playing games don't have much to offer anymore.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Hmm... well I've got a thread in the works that I hope can make you think twice about that.

 

[.JayZii]

Hmm... well I've got a thread in the works that I hope can make you think twice about that.

By all means. I loved them growing up when all I had was an NES. Make me think as many times as you'd like.

 

[jeremy1456]

Yes actually. Over the past year or so I've played all of those except DQ3 for at least a few hours.

I appreciate them in a historical context, but I just don't find any of them (in their original forms, not remakes) entertaining anymore. I think Zelda 2 has probably held up the best.
Sorry if this makes me unqualified to speak on the subject in your eyes, but with nostalgia-vision off, 8-bit role playing games don't have much to offer anymore.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

If you can appreciate remakes but not the originals that says to me that you are judging them solely from a graphical standpoint.

A further deduction can be made that you are trying to argue that games with 8-bit graphics have nothing to offer anymore, from your point of view. Is this really your opinion on the subject?

 

[Dali]

The PS2 and to a lesser degree the GCN spoiled us last gen with a glut of modern jrpgs with reasonable production values. You had the Tales series, Shadow Hearts, a shit load of Personas and Megaten games, Kingdom Hearts, Xenosaga, Suikoden, FF, Baiten Katos as well as a lot of one-offs like Bumpy Trot, Radiata, VP2, Okami and so on. So comparing this gen to what we once took for granted last makes an already shallow selection seem even weaker. Sure you can say portables is where it's at, but some people have moved past sprite-based throw-back jrpgs which is really the bulk of what people are talking about when they say "you should get a DS". Jrpgs made in the same vein as any of the aforementioned are simply a dying breed whether you want to include the portables or not.

 

[NervousXtian]

The new WRPG approach seems to be to make a game that is obviously not an RPG (shooters are the typical choice) and incorporate RPG elements into the game.

Ta-da! Just like that we can advertise our third person shooter as an RPG.

That's one franchise, 2 games.

..and I will say it's not just JRPG that have "removed" things through the years.. I remember in Pool of Radiance being able to take anything from the monsters/people you killed. Orc attacked with a club, there it is to take when he's dead. I miss that.

Also, Suikoden 2 is one of the best RPG's of all time.

 

[jeremy1456]

That's one franchise, 2 games.

..and I will say it's not just JRPG that have "removed" things through the years.. I remember in Pool of Radiance being able to take anything from the monsters/people you killed. Orc attacked with a club, there it is to take when he's dead. I miss that.

Also, Suikoden 2 is one of the best RPG's of all time.

I guess I should have said 'shooter' rather than 'third person shooter' to cover the bases.

EDIT: Oops, I forgot what I originally said .

So what about Fallout 3? Though I've not played it, I also thought Alpha Protocol fits too.

 

[Eusis]

As an aside, DQIX doesn't 'make up for III' (whatever that's supposed to mean). They are different games.

Well, I meant more that it's similar to DQIII and is roughly the current gen equivalent to it. Not that it's really an excuse to ignore DQIII or anything.

 

[Dennis]

I played Phantasy Star for the first time in 2007, and it immediately became one of my favorite games.

That is understandable given that Phantasy Star is one of the best RPGs ever made.

 

[.JayZii]

If you can appreciate remakes but not the originals that says to me that you are judging them solely from a graphical standpoint.

A further deduction can be made that you are trying to argue that games with 8-bit graphics have nothing to offer anymore, from your point of view. Is this really your opinion on the subject?

Well there were adjustments to the balance and user friendliness in the remakes that I appreciated because I found it made them more playable. Having to pay 20,000 gil on each high level spell in the original Final Fantasy for example, is not appealing to me anymore in the slightest. I don't dislike older graphics at all, especially in something like Phantasy Star (the cutscene/cinematic panels still look quite good and astounding for the time).

I like these games, I just think I'm realistic about them. Please stop trying to put words into my mouth.

 

[charlequin]

Aside from the individual comparison points where I disagree (FFVII is better than VI), the sheer breadth of JRPG releases during the 32-bit era is not represented by your short list and I think it discounts a major strength of the PSX generation.

I kind of referenced it implicitly by talking about how the strength of the PSX is in all the secondary type games!

But okay, it's true, I didn't really mentally count Suikoden 2. That's probably the #1 all-time classic from the PSX era. I don't think Xenogears is very good (but I never finished it, lolz.)

And if you get Lufia, I get Wild Arms 1.

WTF, Lufia 2 is like ten times better than Wild Arms 1.

the WRPG approach has transitioned to the HD age much smoother, as they were doing pseudo-3D for years (decades).

But the WRPGs that are successful now (i.e. Bethesda/Bioware RPGs) are nothing like classic WRPGs at all.

 

[Gaspode_T]

Unfortunately I have become used to receiving permanent credit for playing games (Achievements), which kind of proves how much hard work you put into playing a long game like a JRPG. There might be dozens of JRPGs for DS and PSP, but those hundreds of hours of gameplay are mostly impossible to prove unless you sit there taking pictures of the screen..

I also worry that they will end up getting re-released for Vita/whatever with achievement/trophy support, which has happened before? (for PS3 releases? or no?)

 

[jeremy1456]

Well there were adjustments to the balance and user friendliness in the remakes that I appreciated because I found it made them more playable. Having to pay 20,000 gil on each high level spell in the original Final Fantasy for example, is not appealing to me anymore in the slightest. I don't dislike older graphics at all, especially in something like Phantasy Star (the cutscene/cinematic panels still look quite good and astounding for the time).

I like these games, I just think I'm realistic about them. Please stop trying to put words into my mouth.

I asked if that was really your opinion, because those were the biggest changes.

So you like the remakes of the games because they're more balanced? Going back to DQIII and IV, they are balanced really well. I actually thought the remake of IV was too easy.

 

[Y2Kev]

I kind of referenced it implicitly by talking about how the strength of the PSX is in all the secondary type games!

But I said I discounted it! And it's so not fair to call stuff like VP and VS secondary. *folds arms*

WTF, Lufia 2 is like ten times better than Wild Arms 1.

u mad doggie etc

wild arms mad phat

 

[Pureauthor]

Well we got the Lufia 2 remake this generation.

... *sigh*

 

[NervousXtian]

But the WRPGs that are successful now (i.e. Bethesda/Bioware RPGs) are nothing like classic WRPGs at all.

Correct, but the roots can still be seen. A lot of WRPG's have ditched parties for solo adventuring, but take TES for instance.

I grew up on Gold Box, Ultima, Might & Magic, and the Bard's Tale. You can still see the progression, even thought I'd say things have been "dumbed" down to go true 3D, from those early games in things like Oblivion or Fallout 3/NV.

 

[Pureauthor]

Correct, but the roots can still be seen. A lot of WRPG's have ditched parties for solo adventuring, but take TES for instance.

I grew up on Gold Box, Ultima, Might & Magic, and the Bard's Tale. You can still see the progression, even thought I'd say things have been "dumbed" down to go true 3D, from those early games in things like Oblivion or Fallout 3/NV.

I'm pretty sure you can say the same thing about most jRPGs in that case.

 

[galian beast]

Only RPG ive played this generation has been FF13, and i stopped playing it really quickly.

I'm filling the void with old rpgs that I passed on like Xenogears and Vagrant Story.

 

[Y2Kev]

Well we got the Lufia 2 remake this generation.

... *sigh*

Demise of the Sinistrals!

 

[Aeana]

Unfortunately I have become used to receiving permanent credit for playing games (Achievements), which kind of proves how much hard work you put into playing a long game like a JRPG. There might be dozens of JRPGs for DS and PSP, but those hundreds of hours of gameplay are mostly impossible to prove unless you sit there taking pictures of the screen..

I also worry that they will end up getting re-released for Vita/whatever with achievement/trophy support, which has happened before? (for PS3 releases? or no?)

Prove? Really?
Whatever happened to playing games for fun? To playing games being its own reward? Prove? To whom? And why?

 

[LowerLevel]

Wow... Well I know I'm in the minority here but Lost Odyssey, Last Remnant, Tales of Vesperia and even Blue Dragon are all pretty damn good IMO. Even playing TLR on PC now for even more goodness. Persona 4 is also getting big props here!

 

[Boogiepop]

Console-wise, sure it doesn't look so hot, but DS has been rocking it pretty awesomely (and I will love it forever for giving me the Etrian Odyssey games).
Honestly, though, I'm still drowning in my PS2 backlog (playing through the .hack games [though 4 is proving a pain to hunt down] with a backlog of, like, 25 PS2 games to play).

 

[mutsu]

Well we got the Lufia 2 remake this generation.

... *sigh*

Seriously, Square-Enix hates money. Port/Lufia in its original form and I am all over it! I haven't finished either Lufia 1 or 2, only played the initial 10 hours or so, but I would love to be able to play it again now... seriously!!!

 

[Kyoufu]

Not a great gen as far as consoles are concerned but DS + PSP libraries have a quality lineup of JRPGs. Handhelds will be the main JRPG platform for as long as game development is expensive on consoles.

 

[Hours Left]

Well we got the Lufia 2 remake this generation.

... *sigh*

It still burns my brain.

Most unneeded/misguided remake ever.

 

[GhaleonQ]

By all means. I loved them growing up when all I had was an NES. Make me think as many times as you'd like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p00jCZadJqM
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/radia/radia.htm

Begin! While, again, I am on the side of 4th>5th>6th>7th>3rd generation, but that's more because the others are so great rather than the 8-bit being awful.