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[cicero]

You say that, but Israel bombed Lebanese army barracks that housed no other than Lebanese troops. It wasn't a long range missile either, it was an airstrike, so it's not like they accidently missed their mark. I don't really understand what Israel is up to, but obviously they are trying to cripple Lebanon.

Crippling Lebanon, ten soldiers at a time, a week at a time.

 

[GSG Flash]

Crippling Lebanon, ten soldiers at a time, a week at a time.

Yes because no civilian buildings or key infrastructure buildings have been hit, and not to mention the lack of Lebanese civilians being killed

*rolls eyes*

 

[cicero]

Yes because no civilian buildings or key infrastructure buildings have been hit, and not to mention the lack of Lebanese civilians being killed

*rolls eyes*

Oh, you mentioned them specifically? I certainly have in my other posts, as well as the commonly understood rational behind Israel's strategic bombing. What is your position as to Israel's right to defend itself and its citizenry.

oh wait...

I find it funny how if you're anti zionist, suddenly you're an anti semite. I'll admit I'm an anti zionist because I see Israel as a terrorist nation, despite all the media bullshit and american propoganda, and I feel that Israel was created illegally, but I'm definitely not an anti semite. I know a lot of jews and I can never imagine hating any of them, especially one of my teachers in highschool, he was probably the coolest teacher and one of the coolest people I ever knew.

 

[GSG Flash]

Oh, you mentioned them specifically? I certainly have in my other posts, as well as the commonly understood rational behind Israel's strategic bombing. What is your position as to Israel's right to defend itself and its citizenry.

oh wait...

Ok seriously, do you have a ****ing brain? what does THAT post have to do with what we are talking about? You clearly don't have a response so you have to resort to that. NO I'm not anti semite, YES I'm anti zionist, I have my reasons which you don't need to know about, is everything clear now? Stop trying to derail the discussion with a post I made a few DAYS ago.

 

[cicero]

Ok seriously, do you have a ****ing brain? what does THAT post have to do with what we are talking about? You clearly don't have a response so you have to resort to that. NO I'm not anti semite, YES I'm anti zionist, I have my reasons which you don't need to know about, is everything clear now? Stop trying to derail the discussion with a post I made a few DAYS ago.

um, it specifically relates given the fact that you deny the legitimate basis for Israel's existence, thereby giving a basis for denying it the right to defend itself. Again I will ask the question, what is your position as to Israel's right to defend itself and its citizenry?

If it in fact was illegally created, is illegitimate, and is a "terrorist state", then what rights do you say it has to defend itself?

 

[kojacker]

I'm watching footage of what was Lebanon on the TV (BBC) right now... and it's just unbelieveable, depressing, heartbreaking, and frustrating.

Today my country, Britain, began evacuating it's citizens. The people getting on the boat described their relief of getting out of hell.

The fact that Israel can get away with it shows how impotent the rest of the world is to stop them. Israel only listens to America and America only listens to it's own best interest.

And, ofcourse, at the same time they continue their work in Palestine.

Israel of all countries should be working to improve it's reputation and try to reach out to it's neighbours. Growing up in Belfast I understand how destructive religious and national hatred can be. But I, for one, have a rapidly deteriorating impression of Israel and - being brutally honest - i wouldn't mind somebody smacking that bully down to size a bit. I don't mean fighting with them because it's always innocent civillians that get hurt, maybe the international community should get together and work to reign in Israel and force it to carry out it's obligations.

The key is America - when/can it divorce from it's blind allegiance to Jerusalem?

 

[Slurpy]

Crippling Lebanon, ten soldiers at a time, a week at a time.

So tell me cicero, do you believe killing 10 soldiers a week at a cost of 250 civilians a week is worth it, while devastiting the infrastrucure and destroying the economy of Lebanon? It seems clear to me you do, but Id just like a confirmation out of you.

And if yes, where is your line drawn? 300 civilians? 500? 1000? Or is there no line at all?
A simple question.

And please dont give me a 5 page long post quoting random articles that supports whatever ideology you choose, as has been your trademark. Just tell me the civilian cost that you believe can be justified.

 

[cicero]

IAF foils rocket transports from Syria

Although Hizbullah has suffered a harsh blow from Israeli air force strikes which took out a good percentage of their available weapons, Syria was continuing to smuggle arms into Lebanon to rearm the group, IDF Operations Branch Head Major General Gadi Eisenkot said during a press briefing Tuesday.

Thus far, the IAF managed to intercept a number of trucks transporting rockets from Syria to Hizbullah, including trucks laden with the 20mm-diameter rockets with warheads like the one that hit the Haifa train depot Monday, claiming eight lives. Maj.-Gen. Eisenkot said he would be very surprised if official elements in Syria were unaware of these transports.

“These are rockets that belong to the Syrian army. You can’t find them in the Damascus market, and the Syrian government is responsible for this smuggling,” Eisenkot said, but stressed, “We are not operating against Syria or the Lebanese army.”

During the briefing, Maj.-Gen. Eisenkot said the IDF has hit over 1,000 targets, 180 of them Katyusha and rocket storage sites and 350 launch sites. Over 250 missile strikes were carried out with the aim of blocking traffic arteries, and 200 buildings used by Hizbullah were hit. According to Eisenkot, Israel’s offensive would continue without time limitations.

“With that, we always operate under the principle of a short fighting period. In the short term, this is a complicated reality for civilians
too, but in the long term this operation holds great importance for all of us,” he noted. He added that senior Hizbullah leaders were hiding out in underground bunkers. “We struck a number of mid-level operatives in the organization, and not in the numbers we wished, but our energies have been aimed at taking out weapons stores and rocket launchers,” he said.


'IDF learning enemy'

At the briefing, IAF Commander Brig. Gen. Amir Eshel presented footage of an army aircraft scoring a direct hit on a truck laden with rockets, and noted that the truck was disguised as a civilian vehicle in order not to be identified.

“We are faced with very complex operations here, which demand excellent intelligence information. To thwart this, we are blocking the Lebanon-Syria border, and warplanes are constantly flying over the area,” he said. He noted that as time passes, the air force was becoming familiar with the enemy and its operations were therefore becoming more sophisticated and efficient.

The IDF was continuing to destroy Hizbullah bases within one kilometer of the border that were built over the past six years since the army withdrew from Lebanon. Residents of southern Lebanese villages, where rockets were being fired from, had been asked to leave the area, officials noted at the briefing.

Clearly the wanton and indescriminate destruction and leveling of the entire Lebanese infrastructure and random Lebanese citizenry. Wanton is the key word here, wanton.

 

[GSG Flash]

um, it specifically relates given the fact that you deny the legitimate basis for Israel's existence, thereby giving a basis for denying it the right to defend itself. Again I will ask the question, what is your position as to Israel's right to defend itself and its citizenry?

If it in fact was illegally created, is illegitimate, and is a "terrorist state", then what rights do you say it has to defend itself?

Ok here's my answer, the fact is that the state of Israel is already created and we can't do anything about it, I believe Israel has the right to defend itself and it's citizens, but with their actions in the past decade and more against both Palestinians and Lebanese, their excuse of defending themselves in this instance is bullshit, in my opinion, when the soldiers got kidnapped, they just got a taste of their own medicine.

Now let's say Israel was a relatively peaceful country the last 2 decades and Hezbollah just came out of nowhere and kidnapped their soldiers with no reason, Israel definitely has a right to defend itself, but with the amount of force they're using right now and the amount of people they are killing, I'd hardly call that defending.

 

[Luckett_X]

at the end of the day, human beings are still territorial animals, and when attacked will go out of their way to protect their tribe by removing the threat. Lebanon isn't taking responsibility for the bullshit going on in its borders as agreed to in several UN terms, so Israel goes to sort it out itself but oops, looks like theyre not being all delicate and dainty about it. Its no surprise, after 9/11 we went and turned the entirety of Afghanistan into a dusty parking lot because of the nonsense going on over there. Same stuff, but rather than an isolated shocking terrorist incident sparking it, we've got sustained attacks from a group pretty much considered the 'spirit' of Lebanon. Of course Israels attacks are going to be crushing and over the top. Thats sadly how it has to be in the Middle East. Bigger animal has to bear its fangs and tell the little jackels and hyenas to back down or get slaughtered.

Amusingly enough I started talking to someone over the net who lives in Haifa before all this stuff kicked off, so it's been pretty interesting in that way. Guess it makes me a bit biased in proceedings, but hey may as well pick a side and root from the sidelines huh.

 

[Nerevar]

So tell me cicero, do you believe killing 10 soldiers a week at a cost of 250 civilians a week is worth it, while devastiting the infrastrucure and destroying the economy of Lebanon? It seems clear to me you do, but Id just like a confirmation out of you.

And if yes, where is your line drawn? 300 civilians? 500? 1000? Or is there no line at all?
A simple question.

And please dont give me a 5 page long post quoting random articles that supports whatever ideology you choose, as has been your trademark. Just tell me the civilian cost that you believe can be justified.

out of curiousity, where are you getting the 250 civilians from? Becuase cnn.com's latest tracker

Israel: 25 dead, including 13 civilians, Israeli military says.

Lebanon: 183 dead, Lebanese authorities say, with no breakdown between civilians and military personnel.

183 =/= 250. Furthermore, no breakdown there. How many of those 183 are civilian members of Hezbollah? How many are innocent casualties? We don't really know.

edit: and the fact that the north of Lebannon is relatively untouched outsides of a few strikes in Tripoli pretty convincingly demonstrates that Israel isn't dedicated to "the wanton destruction of Lebanon", as some knee-jerks are saying. But hey, choose your own conclusions. You're free to subscribe to any worldview you want.

 

[fat]

'JERUSALEM - Israel declared Tuesday it was ready to fight Hezbollah guerrillas for several more weeks and possibly send ground forces into Lebanon, raising doubts about international efforts to broker an immediate cease-fire in the fighting that has killed more than 260 people and displaced 500,000.'


Diplomatic efforts to end the fighting, which has killed at least 237 people in Lebanon and 25 in Israel, continued Tuesday, as a U.N. mediation team met with Israeli leaders a day after speaking with Lebanese officials in Beirut.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719...7EUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

 

[kojacker]

The problem with picking sides in situations like this is that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

In Belfast we have our fair share of freedom fighters to choose from, e.g. IRA or UVF. Funny thing is - none of them fight for your freedom. What they do is fight for control of your turf, so they can demand extortion money, steal from local government coffers, run drug rackets and other gangster acts.

In fact the one thing freedom fighters never seem to bring is freedom.

Hizbullah was formed as a direct result of Israeli aggression and terrorism. However, unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that when Israel finally changes it's ways Hizbullah won't disappear. Power and hatred corrupts, and military trained young men with no jobs but a load of weaponry rarely go back to be normal citizens.

My only sympathy is with the normal folks in Lebanon and Israel trying to get on with everyday life.

 

[Nerevar]

'JERUSALEM - Israel declared Tuesday it was ready to fight Hezbollah guerrillas for several more weeks and possibly send ground forces into Lebanon, raising doubts about international efforts to broker an immediate cease-fire in the fighting that has killed more than 260 people and displaced 500,000.'


Diplomatic efforts to end the fighting, which has killed at least 237 people in Lebanon and 25 in Israel, continued Tuesday, as a U.N. mediation team met with Israeli leaders a day after speaking with Lebanese officials in Beirut.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719...7EUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

interesting ... I wonder where they got their numbers. They seem to state them without source and assume they're authentic.

For reference sake
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/mideast/index.html

Tuesday, July 18, 2006; Posted: 7:54 p.m. EDT (23:54 GMT)

The death toll in northern Israel stands at 25, including 13 civilians. Lebanese internal security forces said 183 people have been killed and 456 wounded in the country since the start of hostilities. There was no breakdown between civilians and military personnel.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

The problem with picking sides in situations like this is that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

In Belfast we have our fair share of freedom fighters to choose from, e.g. IRA or UVF. Funny thing is - none of them fight for your freedom. What they do is fight for control of your turf, so they can demand extortion money, steal from local government coffers, run drug rackets and other gangster acts.

In fact the one thing freedom fighters never seem to bring is freedom.

Hizbullah was formed as a direct result of Israeli aggression and terrorism. However, unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that when Israel finally changes it's ways Hizbullah won't disappear. Power and hatred corrupts, and military trained young men with no jobs but a load of weaponry rarely go back to be normal citizens.

My only sympathy is with the normal folks in Lebanon and Israel trying to get on with everyday life.

Thank you. Excellent, mature analysis.

 

[GSG Flash]

interesting ... I wonder where they got their numbers. They seem to state them without source and assume they're authentic.

For reference sake
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/mideast/index.html

BBC also says around 230

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5192990.stm

Israel launched its assault and blockade last Wednesday after the two soldiers were captured.

About 230 Lebanese people have been killed since then - the majority of them were civilians, but the toll includes about 30 soldiers. The number of Hezbollah militants killed is not known.

Twenty-five Israelis have died - 13 civilians and 12 members of the military.

 

[Nerevar]

As I said, I wonder where that 230 / 250 number is coming from. The only one I've seen with a source is the CNN one, the other ones just state it.

Someone mentioned earlier that CNN is really doing a good job of getting back at journalism, and this is pretty good evidence why, actually. I'm glad they did that.

 

[cicero]

So tell me cicero, do you believe killing 10 soldiers a week at a cost of 250 civilians a week is worth it, while devastiting the infrastrucure and destroying the economy of Lebanon? It seems clear to me you do, but Id just like a confirmation out of you.

And if yes, where is your line drawn? 300 civilians? 500? 1000? Or is there no line at all?
A simple question.

I don't put a hard limit in terms of civilians being killed. If they are achieving their aims and crushing down Hezbollah, while keeping the kidnapped soldiers in Lebanon and foreign military aid out, I would think they should continue on if accidental civilian deaths are kept relatively low.

And please dont give me a 5 page long post quoting random articles that supports whatever ideology you choose, as has been your trademark. Just tell me the civilian cost that you believe can be justified.

I have never quoted random articles, my quotations have all been in-context and on-point.

I note that you still haven't responded to my post to you from awhile back.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3823874&postcount=515

And by all means, can you please tell me when your blatant discriminatory application of standards only applied to Israel, and the assumptions of inherent guilt and a supposed inherently systematic malevolent desire on the part of either Jews, the Israel Defense Forces or the Israeli government as a whole, towards brutality, barbarity, or malicious actions, simply done to "wreak havoc" because "they can". When exactly did discrimination like that and a base assumption of the inherent evil intentions of Israel, and by that also Jewish self-determination, not describe discriminatory anti-Semitism?

Welcome back.

 

[cicero]

Ok here's my answer, the fact is that the state of Israel is already created and we can't do anything about it, I believe Israel has the right to defend itself and it's citizens, but with their actions in the past decade and more against both Palestinians and Lebanese, their excuse of defending themselves in this instance is bullshit, in my opinion, when the soldiers got kidnapped, they just got a taste of their own medicine.

Now let's say Israel was a relatively peaceful country the last 2 decades and Hezbollah just came out of nowhere and kidnapped their soldiers with no reason, Israel definitely has a right to defend itself, but with the amount of force they're using right now and the amount of people they are killing, I'd hardly call that defending.

Then what is the line exactly and who determines what it is? Their use of force has been limited already. What would you limit it to? If ANY innocent civilians are killed, then all use of force must be called off?

 

[GSG Flash]

As I said, I wonder where that 230 / 250 number is coming from. The only one I've seen with a source is the CNN one, the other ones just state it.

Someone mentioned earlier that CNN is really doing a good job of getting back at journalism, and this is pretty good evidence why, actually. I'm glad they did that.

CNN is the only one with a source, but they are also the only ones that are stating less than 200, plus I'm pretty sure these other news agencies aren't just making the 200+ numbers up, if so many of them are saying that, the source must be credible.

 

[cicero]

The problem with picking sides in situations like this is that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

In Belfast we have our fair share of freedom fighters to choose from, e.g. IRA or UVF. Funny thing is - none of them fight for your freedom. What they do is fight for control of your turf, so they can demand extortion money, steal from local government coffers, run drug rackets and other gangster acts.

In fact the one thing freedom fighters never seem to bring is freedom.

Hizbullah was formed as a direct result of Israeli aggression and terrorism. However, unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that when Israel finally changes it's ways Hizbullah won't disappear. Power and hatred corrupts, and military trained young men with no jobs but a load of weaponry rarely go back to be normal citizens.

My only sympathy is with the normal folks in Lebanon and Israel trying to get on with everyday life.

To quote myself:

Israel invaded because of the PLO's numerous cross-border attacks using Lebanon as a base of operations. And that occured because the Lebanese government made a secret agreement on November 3, 1969, the "Cairo agreement" brokered by Nasser himself, with the Palestine Liberation Organization granting the PLO the right to operate on Lebanese soil. The Iranian-sponsored second resistance movement, Hezbollah, was created after the Israeli invasion which the Lebanese government was the direct cause of.

There was no unwarranted Israeli "aggression", and certainly no :lol "terrorism". Feel free to go look it up and prove me wrong though, don't forget to cite sources.

 

[GSG Flash]

Then what is the line exactly and who determines what it is? Their use of force has been limited already. What would you limit it to? If ANY innocent civilians are killed, then all use of force must be called off?

Ok, how about this, try diplomatic means before the use of military force. If diplomacy doesn't work out, then send ground troops in instead of bombing everything from the sky.

And since you seem to be grilling me on a lot, I have to ask you this, you being one of the most prominent members on the GAF IDF, why is it that you defend Israel to no end and crticize them in no way? What is it that makes you owe Israel, even if they murder hundreds of innocent people, your loyalty?

 

[ronito]

oh noes they've got the jihad g-ma!

 

[BlueTsunami]

Anyone who thinks CNN doesn't show the Lebonese side of the story need to hush themeselves. I believe its Anderson Cooper thats on right now, a field reporter was on with a Hezbollah representative and was being shown the areas that were hit by different air to ground bombs. They showed areas that were clearly populated heavily by civilians.

I'm not exactly sure but it seems like Israel is not really concerned about what they may be hitting if what their hitting takes out soldiers from Hezbollah. Or they may have made sometype of decision to make this civilion to hezbollah ratio and took calculated risk with civilian deaths. Either way, this whole thing is dirty.

 

[GSG Flash]

Anyone who thinks CNN doesn't show the Lebonese side of the story need to hush themeselves. I believe its Anderson Cooper thats on right now, a field reporter was on with a Hezbollah representative and was being shown the areas that were hit by different air to ground bombs. They showed areas that were clearly populated heavily by civilians.

I'm not exactly sure but it seems like Israel is not really concerned about what they may be hitting if what their hitting takes out soldiers from Hezbollah. Or they may have made sometype of decision to make this civilion to hezbollah ratio and took calculated risk with civilian deaths. Either way, this whole thing is dirty.

Here's the video I think you're talking about

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/scp_v3/viewer/index.php?pid=16598&rn=49750&cl=610896&ch=49799&src=news.yahoo.com

 

[kojacker]

To quote myself:

There was no unwarranted Israeli "aggression", and certainly no :lol "terrorism". Feel free to go look it up and prove me wrong though, don't forget to cite sources.

i don't understand how you can get to that conclusion but I don't believe I'd ever talk you around to mine, and I'm pretty sure we can cite against each other all night. You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

Although I believe one side is the larger aggressor, I'm very happy to acknowlege legitimate and genuine grievances to both sides. Sooner or later you have to draw a line, put past problems to the side, and try to work out a solution to at least move forward. Neither country is benefitting at the moment. Even if Israel bombs Lebanon back 20 years or back to the stone age it'll be a very hollow victory indeed.

I'm sure we would both agree that a stable and progressive middle east would be a positive benefit to everyone, and that Lebanon and Israel will both benefit through a healthier co-operative relationship. I feel it's time to put the stick away and try a different approach - the stick hasn't worked too well so far.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Here's the video I think you're talking about

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/scp_v3/viewer/index.php?pid=16598&rn=49750&cl=610896&ch=49799&src=news.yahoo.com

Yep, thats exactly it, thanks GSG Flash!

 

[Nerevar]

Anyone who thinks CNN doesn't show the Lebonese side of the story need to hush themeselves. I believe its Anderson Cooper thats on right now, a field reporter was on with a Hezbollah representative and was being shown the areas that were hit by different air to ground bombs. They showed areas that were clearly populated heavily by civilians.

I'm not exactly sure but it seems like Israel is not really concerned about what they may be hitting if what their hitting takes out soldiers from Hezbollah. Or they may have made sometype of decision to make this civilion to hezbollah ratio and took calculated risk with civilian deaths. Either way, this whole thing is dirty.

I dunno about that, most estimates of civilian deaths as a result of the US bombardment on Iraq in the first month of the war are significantly higher than either number of Lebanese civilians reported so far. Unless you think the US was specifically targeting Iraqi civilians, I'd think Israel is doing a pretty good job of trying not to kill Lebanese civilians.

To be frank, while the human toll of war is always terrible, I personally feel Israel has done more damage to Lebanon as a whole as a result of destroying all the major transportation arteries and sites (airports, highways, ports) so far. After this settles down, even with massive international help (which is not guaranteed) it's going to take them at least a year to rebuild just Beirut alone, who knows how long after that it will take to reconnect the countryside and get the economy back on track. So all this focusing on civilian deaths is kind of ridiculous. For comparsion, if Israel kept this bombardment up for a month with the same rate of deaths, they still wouldn't kill the same number of people that are murdered in a year in New York City alone.

 

[kojacker]

To be frank, while the human toll of war is always terrible, I personally feel Israel has done more damage to Lebanon as a whole as a result of destroying all the major transportation arteries and sites (airports, highways, ports) so far. After this settles down, even with massive international help (which is not guaranteed) it's going to take them at least a year to rebuild just Beirut alone, who knows how long after that it will take to reconnect the countryside and get the economy back on track.

I agree with you here, it seems to be a tactic Israel uses. For example, a couple of weeks ago Israel destroyed Gaza's only power station - and they estimate it will be out of action for up to 6 months. It might just be a building, but imagine what effect that will have - a populaton of people without a reliable source of electricity for up to half a year.

I fail to see how destroying roads, airfields, power stations is nothing but colective punishment. I fail to see how this is going to get the sympathy of the local people. And most importantly, how exacty will this help get their servicemen back?

To me it looks like Israel is taking the soft option and attacking easy targets instead of making the tough decision to engage with those whom it would be most useful - the militants on the other side of the fence.

 

[BlueTsunami]

I dunno about that, most estimates of civilian deaths as a result of the US bombardment on Iraq in the first month of the war are significantly higher than either number of Lebanese civilians reported so far. Unless you think the US was specifically targeting Iraqi civilians, I'd think Israel is doing a pretty good job of trying not to kill Lebanese civilians.

To be frank, while the human toll of war is always terrible, I personally feel Israel has done more damage to Lebanon as a whole as a result of destroying all the major transportation arteries and sites (airports, highways, ports) so far. After this settles down, even with massive international help (which is not guaranteed) it's going to take them at least a year to rebuild just Beirut alone, who knows how long after that it will take to reconnect the countryside and get the economy back on track. So all this focusing on civilian deaths is kind of ridiculous. For comparsion, if Israel kept this bombardment up for a month with the same rate of deaths, they still wouldn't kill the same number of people that are murdered in a year in New York City alone.

One side of me agrees with you but the other says that Israel could have outright avoided this large reaction alltogether and avoided any civilian deaths. Though, its not really surprising to me that civilian areas are being hit like this since Hezbollah (and groups like it) are made up by essentially normal citizens takeing up arms. Makeshift hideouts and whatnot would be nessled within areas that are populated.

These type of battles are the ones most likely to accumulate many civilian deaths.

 

[Phoenix]

Sorry, I've been away doing other more important things - but I see that this has continued so I'll back in the saddle.

Is this a joke? Roads directly connect guerrillas and heavy weaponry with the front line along the Lebanese-Israeli border. Maybe you could explain why it is so hard to understand why bombing something like the main Beirut-Damascus highway would be a legitimate and very worthwhile target. I guess during military conflicts those type of points of interest are usually ignored though... As for the attacks on military bases... Really, were you planning on just not acknowledging the simple fact that they, at the time of your post, specifically limited the attacks to two Lebanese AIR BASES, destroying the runways? Also, the fuel depots were at the Beirut's international airport.

Your intel is apparently a little worse than mine because at the time of my post the Israelis has attacked several military positions, not just airbases. I got my information from Janes - not sure where you got yours.

The area of conflict has been strictly limited and largely confined to Beirut and southern Lebanon, the general population in southern Beirut has been warned to evacuate by Israel. The military actions have been restricted and confined to specific points of interest, I have no idea why all were chosen, I assume for some strategic reason and not out of mindless pure Jew malice (as some in this thread would suggest). These actions hardly constitute Israel "currently destroying Lebanon, infrastructure and all."...

That still your position - that powerplants, roads, and airports aren't infrastructure?



(have no idea what your ramblings were in the piece that I snipped)

I know of no such process ongoing. But what does that have to do with the previous non-existence of a diplomatic process, or the specifically defined statement you made, "there can never be any diplomacy and consequently any peace."? Again, you are arguing an unknown.

It is not an unknown - there was no diplomatic process and only in the past few days has any semblance of an exit strategy revealed itself. If you know of some diplomatic overture that hasn't been picked up by any of the media - Arab or Western, then perhaps you should list it for those days.

There is absolutely no way for you to claim the position you did and logically back it up. If they attack and leave, there is still the possibility that for some reason, IN THE FUTURE, diplomacy could occur as well as peace.

Always works when you take a partial quote - perhaps next time you should take the entire quote - or read it all or something.

If your first response to an attack is to within less than a day, essentially invade another country and just leave it ****ed when you leave - there can never be any diplomacy and consequently any peace.

Military as well as financial aid and movement of people between Hezbollah and Iran/Syria has been steadily maintained through the Damascus airport. It is then trucked, via *gasp* roads to southern Lebanon.

...

"Would the US be justified in invading and destroying any facility in any country simply because terrorists have used it in the past?" Invading ANY country and destroying ANY facility for ANY past support or use by terrorists at ANY (which you imply) previous time? Nice straw man. This has never been an actual position of our government or a widely supported strategy on combating terrorism by the U.S. or Israel.

There is no misrepresentation there - that is your position. Until you show that at the time those targets were struck that there was some specific military significance to them - your position is that they are being attacked based on historical evidence. That because they have been used for that purpose in the past - even if they aren't right now nor that there is a clear and immediate liklyhood of them being used for that purpose (if there are supplies being moved - attack the supply trucks, trucks can *gasp* go around bombed roads).

I have no idea what Israel's overall strategic aims are or exit strategy is here, neither do you. Any assumption that they have none as of yet is unfounded. If Israel attacks Lebanon, gets their soldiers back, crushes an every growing Hezbollah threat on their border directly influenced by Iran and Syria, and possibly causes Lebanon to comply with U.N. directives and force Hezbollah to disarm, removing the continued need for Israel to deal with a continued reoccurrence of Hezbollah activity and attacks on Israel from southern Lebanon, how wouldn't that be successful in itself? You actually seem to think that military actions have never, and never will, provide a end solution to a problem in itself.

Military action NEVER is an end solution in itself. Military action is a tool in accomplishing diplomatic objectives.

They are attacking Hezbollah targets specifically, and the various aspects of their pipeline of foreign military aid from Iran and Syria, and possible escape routes. As if roads are innocent objects only used by civilians and airports are only used for innocent civilian transportation.

So you're saying that Israel has only been striking military targets?

Your political party analogy between Hezbollah and the Republican/Democrat/Green Parties here in the U.S. is a weak analogy.

No, its quite apt and simple. Hezbollah does not speak for the Lebanese government any more than the Democratic and Republican parties do. Even when the Republican party is in power - it STILL in itself doesn't speak for the government. The Lebanese government speaks for the Lebanese people.

 

[Phoenix]

anyone mind telling me why if israel wants the lebanese to rein in hezbollah, are they bombing the lebanese army? i mean, they only have about 60-70k troops i believe.

Not just the army, military bases and support facilities as well.

Granted its hard to blame them for hitting army units - its hard to really validate who is who in this sort of scenario. Especially when you're striking from the air. You've got 'obviously hostile' Hezbollah forces within the same strike areas as 'relatively neutral' Lebanese forces.

 

[MrNibbles]

Problems in the Middle East you say?
Over Israel?

Welcome to the past 5000 years of human history.

Of course Israel wasn't established by the US in order to create a friend in the Middle East, so we could secure oil and have our very own martyr nation we could rise up and defend.
Got it? That's not why Israel is there at all. It's God's will that the people of Israel have Israel.

All of this is God's will.

What I see here are a bunch of people arguing over this shit and taking sides, and very few people mentioning that sides don't ****ing matter. This shit has been going on for ****ing ever. If it's decided through violence today, the tables will be turned tomorrow.

People counting the dead and injured and arguing over the count are idiot. A few hundred dead? 180? 230? 250? It doesn't matter. People are dying. That's what matters. If they're dying by the handfull, or by the bucketfull, they're still dying.

The only thing we should be concerned about right now - and yes, you should be concerned about it - is how long this shit is going to last this time. Do we let them fight it out? Do we take sides? Do we step in and stop them?
How badly will it end this time around? Will there be anything left?
Will the battles turn into an all out war?
Will other nations get involved?

We're not exactly in a stable political state globally. Ever since the Cold War, we've been dicking around with little battles and squabbles that could erupt into another world war. Will this latest bitchfest lead to WW3? Probably not. But something will, eventually. Something soon at the rate we're going.

And **** the media too. They just feed off of this shit, counting the dead, sending out pictures, sending reporters into the field.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Appearently CNN is reporting that Israel Ground troops are heading into Southern Lebanon.

:O

 

[Mejilan]

Appearently CNN is reporting that Israel Ground troops are heading into Southern Lebanon.

:O

Not really a surprise, I think.

 

[Willco]

And **** the media too. They just feed off of this shit, counting the dead, sending out pictures, sending reporters into the field.

Yes, **** the media, doing their damn jobs!

 

[Mejilan]

Appearently CNN is reporting that Israel Ground troops are heading into Southern Lebanon.

:O

Not really a surprise, I think.

 

[VALIS]

Maybe to lighten the mood a bit, more gun-totin' honeys...

In an attempt at fairness I googled for "Hezbollah hotties" and got nothing. Perhaps proving there is in fact is a Zionist media conspiracy! OMG!

 

[kojacker]

Not really a surprise, I think.

If it wasn't a surprise the first time, I doubt it would be any more surprising the second!

The BBC reported this an hour ago, apparently it is in line with similar "pinpoint" attacks over the past few days, aimed at Hizbullah targets just inside the Lebonese border.

 

[Mejilan]

Maybe to lighten the mood a bit, more gun-totin' honeys...

In an attempt at fairness I googled for "Hezbollah hotties" and got nothing. Perhaps proving there is in fact is a Zionist media conspiracy! OMG!

That's not Coke.

 

[JCX]

Appearently CNN is reporting that Israel Ground troops are heading into Southern Lebanon.

Oh crap

 

[effzee]

so how long will it take to rebuild lebanon? whos going to help re build it?

i seriously cant believe that the comment about setting lebanon back 20 yrs back isnt brought up more often to show the mindset of some of the ppl in charge in israel, esp considering the comments coming out of the hezzies.

anyway i wonder if any mainstream media picks up the pics of the israeli kids signing the shells "with love from israel" to be used to bomb lebanon.

 

[Willco]

so how long will it take to rebuild lebanon? whos going to help re build it?

This is something that needs to be addressed. Is Israel going to help? I think they have a responsibility to Lebanon.

anyway i wonder if any mainstream media picks up the pics of the israeli kids signing the shells "with love from israel" to be used to bomb lebanon.

Considering that they're pretty much hidden away in a bunch of AP photos, I doubt it. Besides, it'd be good for a segment or two. It's not like CNN is covering pictures and videos of people rallying at pro-Hezbollah parades and stuff all day.

 

[Lo-Volt]

The US is giving Israel a window of a week to inflict maximum damage on Hizbullah before weighing in behind international calls for a ceasefire in Lebanon, according to British, European and Israeli sources.

The Bush administration, backed by Britain, has blocked efforts for an immediate halt to the fighting initiated at the UN security council, the G8 summit in St Petersburg and the European foreign ministers' meeting in Brussels.

"It's clear the Americans have given the Israelis the green light. They [the Israeli attacks] will be allowed to go on longer, perhaps for another week," a senior European official said yesterday. Diplomatic sources said there was a clear time limit, partly dictated by fears that a prolonged conflict could spin out of control.

More of this stunning scoop at http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1823817,00.html

 

[Macam]

I don't have any interest in actively engaging in this debate, largely because I haven't been keeping up with current affairs as much as I have in the past, but from briefly scanning the thread on occasion, the fact that the NYT had this caption on their front page when I booted up my browser was a bit amusing in light of cicero's arguments:

 

[bob_arctor]

Heh, you should listen to NPR more often. Regardless, Israel has made it pretty clear that the only way to stop this conflict is if Hezbollah disarms, or is gone. Israel can't really make them disarm, and apparently neither can the UN, so Israel has chosen option #2.

And regarding your last sentence - why should Israel care what is in Lebannon's best interests? Goodwill of the Lebanese people? What good does that do them if a sizable portion of the population still fires missles randomly into Israeli territory whenever they want? It's an interesting question for sure, one of those "modern war" moral dilemmas that demonstrates how it is impossible to really conduct warfare in a civilized manner.

Who/what is NPR?

Israel does not care what is in Lebanon's best interest, that much is obvious. If they are not on record equating Hezbollah/Lebanese government (and from what you've said here, they aren't), their actions speak otherwise. Now that they've been given a window of at least another week to finish the destruction of Hezbollah vis a vis the destruction of Lebanon, I only hope they have plenty of Hezbollah bodies to brag about when all is said and done. It would be impossible for Israel to claim this position and still worry about Lebanon's best interests. What they are saying to Lebanon is "It was in your best interest to disarm and disband Hezbollah. And you never did. And now look."

You mention a sizable population: what size are we talking here? And does Israel's goal entail that they also need to be expunged? I assume it would, if this is their end game. You can't really half-ass something like that. And what then? I think we all agree there will always be someone in the ME ready to be the next Hezbollah--perhaps even families of civilians killed by Israel in this conflict.

 

[Tamanon]

Who/what is NPR?

National Public Radio in the US

 

[KingGondo]

What's happening to Lebanese civilians is terrible, but they should be primarily angry at Hezbollah. Hezbollah knew what would happen if they ****ed with Israeli soldiers, and that's what they're getting right now. It's pretty much impossible to target Hezbollah without killing civilians because of their embedment in Lebanese society. Besides, this problem will never be solved until the elephants in the room, Iran and Syria, are dealt with.

And when it comes to that, I'm scared for the world.

 

[iidesuyo]

Israeli girls painting messages onto rockets:

They surely hate the Libanese :lol

 

[ronito]

The US is giving Israel a window of a week to inflict maximum damage on Hizbullah before weighing in behind international calls for a ceasefire in Lebanon, according to British, European and Israeli sources.

The Bush administration, backed by Britain, has blocked efforts for an immediate halt to the fighting initiated at the UN security council, the G8 summit in St Petersburg and the European foreign ministers' meeting in Brussels.

"It's clear the Americans have given the Israelis the green light. They [the Israeli attacks] will be allowed to go on longer, perhaps for another week," a senior European official said yesterday. Diplomatic sources said there was a clear time limit, partly dictated by fears that a prolonged conflict could spin out of control.

More of this stunning scoop at http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1823817,00.html

Or else what? We'll support them just a little less? Yeah, I'm sure Israel is trembling about this.