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Israeli troops enter Lebanon
- Thread starter gofreak
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AlanHemberger
Banned
Yeah, we'd be all like "OH HELL NAWWWWWWW MOTHER****ERS!" And then we'd obliterate them.Enron said:
Icanplaythat
Member
AlanHemberger said:
Believe it or not that's probably the only reason there have not been mass terriost attacks (suicide bombings) in major cities all over the country, they know we LOVE to drop bombs.
yes, because in Vietnam we placed phone calls to the local villages in Vietnamese telling them to get out before we levelled it.Caddle said:
I love how the media hypes these sorts of Israeli attacks and the bottom-feeders on the internet run with it. Israeli warplanes have destroyed the critical infrastructure of southern Lebannon and bombed Beirut to hell, leaving the north virtually untouched. In 8 days they've killed roughly 300 people while running near-constant bombing attacks. But Israel is "destroying" Lebannon, they are "explicitly targeting civilians" or acting "without regard to civilian life", and this "wanton civilian massacre" is something that has to stop!
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Nerevar said:
Look man, just admit it: Israel could give a rats ass about who they're killing as long as they are also killing/crippling Hezbollah. I mean, it's already bad enough but do you have to be the sole occupant of the high moral ground as well? Stop being so effin' greedy! Yeesh.
Israel hints at a full-scale invasion
Where will those half a million people go? Are they Hezbollah supporters since they lived in South Lebanon? If they are, will Israel blow them up? Half a million is a lot of potential terrorists if you ask me.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Willco said:
Me and you....agree? Wholeheartedly?? Without reservation? These are strange times indeed.
Strange times!!
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
GSG Flash said:
It's not even that. He's one of the "brains" behind our invasion/occupation of Iraq. How's that going exactly? New American Century off to a great start? *shakes head* Now he's spouting the same shiet in re: Iran.
GSG Flash said:
A lot of Iranian people DONT like their regime. Especially the under-30 crowd. They are just like young people every where else. They want to party, drink and screw. Iran's last president before the current nutjob was a moderate reformer that clashed with the Ayatollah on several things. Life under him was a little more open, safe to say.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Enron said:
But do they not like them enough to "welcome us as liberators"? Hell, even Chris Hitchens thinks the natural order of things will allow gains in Iran sans another forced regime change.
Enron said:
Do you know Iranians personally like I do? My ancestors are Iranian and I have a lot of interest in Iranian politics so I follow this shit a lot. And yes there are some under 30 crowd who would rather be free of any rules and laws, but they're definitely not the majority and Iran is a proud nation, even the youth.
Did you even see the pro nuclear gatherings many Iranians were holding near the powerplant. As I recall, last year wasn't their some plans to take out the enrichment plan from the air, but many Iranians formed a circle around it, including many athletes and youth.
Illuminati
Member
Willco said:
There is a view that goes against that opinon. It was Lebanon's job to disarm and disband Hezbollah, which obviously was not done. As a result the problem was brought to Israel's doorstep when Hezbollah crossed the border\kidnapped soldiers among the other things they do like fire rockets into Israel's city, etc. It could be argued that Israel is only doing what the Lebanese government did not do. All the collateral damage could be attributed to Israel's effort of doing the work Lebanon should have done and Lebanon should be the one to pay for it. And it is the fault of the Lebanon government of letting Hezbollah roam free in the south and have their operations embedded in the cities, towns, etc, where most of the damage is occuring.bob_arctor said:
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Benadryl Hitman said:
It could also be argued that the Lebanese government does not have the power or capability to disarm and drive out Hezbollah and never did. But hey, if Israel wants to be a little bitch and take that road, who's gonna stop them? Nobody.
Enron said:
Well, what I was laughing at initially was when the Bill Kristol said that Iranians don't like their regime, and by him saying that I'm assumin he means the majority if not all Iranians don't like their regime. When you replied to my post, I also assumed you meant the same thing as Kristol because it seemed like you were defending Kristol in his assertion.
bob_arctor said:
The Lebanese honestly have no excuse for letting Hezbollah roam free. If they were unable to do anything about Hezbollah militarily, then they should've worked in conjunction with Israel. Something. Anything!
They pretty much put their heads in the sand.
the problem is that unless Israel decides to go for a conventional ground war, this likely won't happen. an article in the NYT today brought me back to a point that one of my professors pounded into my head during my undergrad - air power at its best can only serve as a preliminary or supporting role to a traditional ground offensive, and alone isn't likely to achieve traditional war aims.Willco said:
considering the civilian casualties and the valid claim that the Israeli response is completely asymmetrical to the current threat, resulting blowback is already guaranteed. Israel can only try to contain it form here on out, but i doubt they are dedicated to that effort.Willco said:
i've read reports of Commando operations along the border, but nothing approaching a full-fled ground offensive yet.Willco said:
bob_arctor said:
Lebanon could do it, but it would be very painful and would likely result in another civil war. Hezbollah is small enough that the lebanese government and security forces could kick them out of the government and arrest their leaders and possibly contain the fighting, but the real fear is who is backing hezbollah. Iran and Syria. If they were to enter the fray, the result would be a civil war so devestating it would make the last 25 years seem like a freakin' carnival.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Enron said:
To which part? That we'd be welcomed as liberators or that the natural order of things indicates that Iran will see gains towards democracy etc.? Of those, #2 seems the most iffy but not impossible (you yourself mentioned their last president), sure, but #1 is a certainty in the negative.
and start a sectarian war that would not only destroy the government, but lead to massive human casualties? let's get serious now - while Lebanon had a UN mandate to disarm Hezbollah, the rest of the world was giving them a chance to stabilize their government and strengthen their position first.Willco said:
Willco said:
I wish
But that is not going to happen. Israel has announced that they are planning full invasion of Lebanon. This is ****ing obvious that they are doing this to control lebanon, then take over Syria. Apparently they feel the need to spread their country from the med. sea to Iraq.bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Well, on this we all agree at least:
Bill Kristol is a pissant fukk who probably got his lunch money taken as a kid.
Bill Kristol is a pissant fukk who probably got his lunch money taken as a kid.
Illuminati
Member
Be realistic, they don't have the military manpower to fight and control Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria all at the same time.castle007 said:I wish
scorcho said:
You can't have militias operating with autonomy within your country attacking other countries. There's no excuse for that. Nothing was even attempted from what I can see. I'm not saying Lebanon deserves to be trashed by Israel, but this could've been prevented. How come the government didn't send a diplomatic envoy to settle disputes about the Sheeba Farms? Or offer incentives for Hezbollah to stop? Or ask for more help from the world?
The world was giving them a chance to rebuild Beirut because it was in everyone's interests to do so. Money was to be made. Nobody gave a shit about Hezbollah until last week.
... I'm going to disagree here.
bob_arctor said:
The fact that we would be "liberators". Definitely not. Iranians may not all LIKE their government, but they are certainly united as a people. From what i understand, there is no abuse of minorities or any class division in iran, as they are nearly all shia muslim. Iraq was a lot different; Baathist Sunnis ruled and stepped all over the poor-class Shias for decades. Class division, religious division leads to more oppression and thus made Iraq a better candidate for "liberation" than Iran.
Iraq is going about as well as I figured it would. This shiat takes time. A lot of it. But if it were Iran, and not Iraq, it would be about 50x worse and I think we recognize it. Hence why nobody really wants to invade except the most out-there of the very very right edge of the neocon "movement"
Illuminati
Member
The Lebanese government, when the resolution was made, should have told the UN they are incapable of disarming and disbanding Hezbollah. Chances are the UN could have probably sent in a force of multinational troops, which would look alot better in the eyes of the world then Israel going in alone.Willco said:
GSG Flash said:
Drawing up "secret plans" and putting your plans on the table are two different things. The US draws up plans for every possibility, no matter how remote. Im sure we have about 30 plans for taking out nuclear reactors and other targets in Iran too, doesn't mean we are actually planning on executing them.
castle007 said:I wish
I think you should put down the RTSes. There's no way that's going to happen. Israel doesnt have the military to overrun, occupy, and annex Lebanon, let alone syria too.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
castle007 said:I wish
You can't possibly be serious here.
Icanplaythat
Member
castle007 said:I wish
If the military forces and overall population of those two countries did get overrun by the IDF maybe they don't deserve all that land. Btw, It won't and can't happen.
Intel analysis from multiple sources says this:
1. Only an invasion on the ground can provide Israel with the solution it wants to the threat Hezbollah has posed.
2. A diplomatic or political settlement not only cannot guarantee this outcome, but it would make later Israeli responses to Hezbollah even more difficult. Israel has more room for maneuver internationally now than it will have later.
3. The internal politics of Israel will make it very difficult for Olmert to come out of this with a less-than-definitive outcome.
4. Israel will seek to deal with Hezbollah without undertaking counterinsurgency operations in the long term. This means attack, sterilization of the threat, and withdrawal.
There has been much speculation about diplomatic solutions, the possibility that there will not be an invasion, and so on. But when we ignore the rhetoric and look at the chessboard, it is difficult to see how this conflict ends without some action on the ground. When we examine the behavior of the Israelis, they are taking the steps that would be needed for an invasion. Obviously we could be wrong, and clearly the invasion has not come at the earliest possible moment, as we had predicted. Nevertheless, when we step through the logic, we keep coming out with the same answer: invasion.
- - - - -
FYI for perspective, and I'm quoting a very knowledgable source, Robert Baer (this is public info):
"Hezbollah's divided into many parties. There's the Islamic Resistance in the south, which beat the Israelis. They attacked the Israeli army. They defeated the Israeli army on Lebanese soil. I do not know how we can describe that other than a national liberation movement.
I don't agree that Hezbollah itself is a terrorist organization. It delivers powdered milk; it takes care of people. It's a social organization; it's a political organization. It fights corruption.
Then there's the Islamic Resistance, which is an army, which is a guerrilla force, fighting for control of its own country. And then, under the Hezbollah umbrella, was the Islamic Jihad, which I call their special security, which was controlled by Iran, which carried out terrorism against the West. And you can paint Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. You can do that for political reasons, but strictly speaking, it is many things. Just as [with] the IRA, you got Sinn Fein and you've got the real IRA, which is conducting terrorism."
- Quote is from Robert Baer interview with Frontline, PBS
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tehran/interviews/baer.html
Read the interview.
1. Only an invasion on the ground can provide Israel with the solution it wants to the threat Hezbollah has posed.
2. A diplomatic or political settlement not only cannot guarantee this outcome, but it would make later Israeli responses to Hezbollah even more difficult. Israel has more room for maneuver internationally now than it will have later.
3. The internal politics of Israel will make it very difficult for Olmert to come out of this with a less-than-definitive outcome.
4. Israel will seek to deal with Hezbollah without undertaking counterinsurgency operations in the long term. This means attack, sterilization of the threat, and withdrawal.
There has been much speculation about diplomatic solutions, the possibility that there will not be an invasion, and so on. But when we ignore the rhetoric and look at the chessboard, it is difficult to see how this conflict ends without some action on the ground. When we examine the behavior of the Israelis, they are taking the steps that would be needed for an invasion. Obviously we could be wrong, and clearly the invasion has not come at the earliest possible moment, as we had predicted. Nevertheless, when we step through the logic, we keep coming out with the same answer: invasion.
- - - - -
FYI for perspective, and I'm quoting a very knowledgable source, Robert Baer (this is public info):
"Hezbollah's divided into many parties. There's the Islamic Resistance in the south, which beat the Israelis. They attacked the Israeli army. They defeated the Israeli army on Lebanese soil. I do not know how we can describe that other than a national liberation movement.
I don't agree that Hezbollah itself is a terrorist organization. It delivers powdered milk; it takes care of people. It's a social organization; it's a political organization. It fights corruption.
Then there's the Islamic Resistance, which is an army, which is a guerrilla force, fighting for control of its own country. And then, under the Hezbollah umbrella, was the Islamic Jihad, which I call their special security, which was controlled by Iran, which carried out terrorism against the West. And you can paint Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. You can do that for political reasons, but strictly speaking, it is many things. Just as [with] the IRA, you got Sinn Fein and you've got the real IRA, which is conducting terrorism."
- Quote is from Robert Baer interview with Frontline, PBS
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tehran/interviews/baer.html
Read the interview.
nice, soemone's been reading some real unbiased news reports, haven't you :lolcastle007 said:I wish
I'm sorry, you can't make fun of Fox News if you're watching news stations that are spouting this. Liberal and conservative propaganda, it doesn't make a difference, it's all propaganda.
Willco said:
Dude, use some sense. You have to be truly dense if you're going to blame citizens of a country that has been as bombarded and manipulated as the Lebonese have for not exhausting all their efforts to "appease" israel. Especially considering Hezbollah are revered for the role they had in helping to push the IDF out of Lebannon in the first place. Holding the entirety of Lebanon's civilians responsible for what a militia group does is shortsighted and idiotic no matter how anyone tries to paint it.
No, you didn't. You read that Israel hasn't ruled out an invasion, not that they were "planning an invasion". Yahoo picked a clearly unbiased piece of the AP Newswire that was titled "Israel hints at invasion", when the quote that they received was:castle007 said:
Apparently "all options remain open" = "we're going to invade and kill everything we see". It's amateur journalism at it's finest.
exactly! it's the Isreali belief in collective punishment in this situation that i'm having the hardest time understanding. it's easy to say that the government could've done more, but with no popular mandate and at the cost of destroying the government and country?m0dus said:
scorcho said:
That's when you call upon the UN or other global forces to assist you. And why does it necessarily have to be through military force? Why weren't diplomatic measures employed? Oh wait, that means that Lebanon has to take some responsibility and that's unpossible!
You cannot have a militant group labeled as a terrorist group by many countries roaming around your country with complete autonomy. There is no excuse. Yeah, it's an obstacle for a fledgling country but you can't ignore them because they'll be tough to tackle.
USA Today puts up a good op/ed piece right here, about opportunities that the West should take advantage of.
Kabuki Waq
Member
Willco said:
you would be surprised who the majority of the world thinks of as terrorists
Kabuki Waq said:you would be surprised who the majority of the world thinks of as terrorists
Regardless of whether or not you agree with the label, they're a militant group that's funded by Syria and Iran with a huge cache of weapons and a hard on for Israel. If anyone thinks it's a good idea to just sit on their hands until they're capable of disarming them, then you are dense.
scorcho said:
Measured steps? They put forth a few resolutions through their government that were shot down because Hezbollah holds seats in their government.
I FEEL LIKE I AM TAKING CRAZY PILLS!
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