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[KINGMOKU]

Let me understand something. I thought maybe people are joking, or dont understand the nature of warfare;

People actually seem to think that in warfare, only troops/bands of fighters are the only ones to get killed?


When you fight, with weapons, civs are always the first to get it. Thats how it works. When you have civs living near the place rockets are bieng fired, guess what, they go up with the blast.

Just how it goes, and will always go.

 

[psycho_snake]

thats just plain ridiculous.. first of all you mean mulsims.. not arabs.. since a large portion of israeli citizens are arabs.. jews christians and mulsim arabs.. second of all.. if israel is being as blatant as you say they are.. then why dont they just use their full airforce arsenal.. use absolutely no ground troops.. and just destroy every city in lebanon.. north.. south.. east .. west.. why even care about a buffer zone.. why even care about having a Hezbollah (and an iranian/syrian influence) free lebanese government?? you honestly believe that all jews (israeli) want to kill all muslims?? granted.. i do think that there are a those that are out of control.. and sometimes they could be the ones responsible for some of these atrocities.. and since the army is an entity.. what one does, the whole does.. so the army definitely needs to finds some sort of restraint.. but to say that israel is in this war just to kill some mulsims is just crazy talk..

Israel cant come out with all guns blazing because that will cause a massive war in the middle east, a war which will involve every country in that region. this war seems to be a little bit more than getting rid of hezbollah, when you look at the areas that have been hit it shows that israel are trying to kill civilians deliberately. I dont believe that all israeli's want to kill all muslims, that just sounds stupid, but you do have a lot of people will will be happy with the deaths of the muslim people, just like there are arabs who are happy to hear about israeli's dying. This war isnt about killing muslims, but I do feel that part of the reason they are continuing to hit so many civilian spots is because they want to kill muslims.

 

[psycho_snake]

Let me understand something. I thought maybe people are joking, or dont understand the nature of warfare;

People actually seem to think that in warfare, only troops/bands of fighters are the only ones to get killed?


When you fight, with weapons, civs are always the first to get it. Thats how it works. When you have civs living near the place rockets are bieng fired, guess what, they go up with the blast.

Just how it goes, and will always go.

Israel seem to be doing more damage to the innocent people than they are to hezbollah and thats why people are angry. hd israel been getting results and caused serious damage to hezbollah, I dont think the people who are not being affected by this war would be disappointed and angry at Israel, but they dont seem to have hurt hezbollah as much as they have hurt the labanese people. People will ways die during war, thats the nature of it anf its very difficult to avoid civilian casualties, but did israel have to kill that city where the children and women were? Some of the civilian deaths look they could have been avoided.

 

[Peru]

Attacking, invading even, a country to get a guerilla group is such a fundamentally flawed tactic that the motivation absolutely cannot solely be fear of Hezbollah.

Ruining the infrastructure of a country that was on its way back from damage and hurt from previous wars, even with a history of Israel-lead massacres... it was and still is shocking to see and a distasteful move.

You don't hinder the Hezbollah by destroying electricity in areas where perhaps a single hospital is the only hope for injured civilians - now hopeless as roads are bombed and hospitals cannot run anymore. And help organizations? Left useless as they can't move, can't access those who need it the most, out of sheer impossibility of transportation or fear for their own lives.

This is an ill-motivated invation less understandable than the flawed american 'democratization' of Iraq which gained so little support. Let's hope the international community.. and finally including USA, see to that Israel no longer are allowed this ruthless quest for control.

 

[SpoonyBard]

By killing civilians and destroying infrastructure they are trying to get people moving from moderate Hezbollah to more extremist organizations. Organizations that are more likely to use suicide bombing against civilian targets for example, and even target Hezbollah. Divide and conquer and all that.

 

[NSider]

I think Israel deliberately hit at least some civilian targets. Not because they're genocidal maniacs. It's just to scare the shit out of any militants who oppose them. That is an ancient military tactic. It's also referred to as terrorism. Some people just forget the roots of that term.

I know there are many genocidal Israelis like there are many genocidal arabs. But those are individuals. And that's not the reason why the IDF/Hezbullah/Hamas kill civilians. They kill civilians because it's easier than killing soldies/militants. It's like that. Israel has better means to avoid hitting civilians .. but they do it anyway.

Yes, both sides are wrong. But Israel started most of this mess. I do hate Hezbullah, but Israel is much worse than them.

I see no solution for this crisis in the foreseeable future unless the US intervenes and pressures Israel to STOP.

 

[Particle Physicist]

It's a slow process, they don't have to be fast about it.
and please stop posting quotes of me out of context from other threads. Is it really hard for you tell when I am joking?

eh? out of context.. okay.. i'll put it into context.. your views between israeli solders and us marines are quite different.. even when similar situations arise.. why is that?

and as far a joking.. well.. in the thread. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3523102#post3523102

you never say as such.. even when people directly asked you..


maybe its the fact that you said jews shouldnt be allowed to have a country thats bothering me.. i dunno.

 

[scorcho]

I think Israel deliberately hit at least some civilian targets. Not because they're genocidal maniacs. It's just to scare the shit out of any militants who oppose them. That is an ancient military tactic. It's also referred to as terrorism. Some people just forget the roots of that term.

wow, not only did you serve yourself a softball, but you then proceeded to smack it out of the park. well-done.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Israel seem to be doing more damage to the innocent people than they are to hezbollah and thats why people are angry. hd israel been getting results and caused serious damage to hezbollah, I dont think the people who are not being affected by this war would be disappointed and angry at Israel, but they dont seem to have hurt hezbollah as much as they have hurt the labanese people. People will ways die during war, thats the nature of it anf its very difficult to avoid civilian casualties, but did israel have to kill that city where the children and women were? Some of the civilian deaths look they could have been avoided.

there is no way to know how badly hezbollah has been hurt since they have released absolutely no numbers..

Attacking, invading even, a country to get a guerilla group is such a fundamentally flawed tactic that the motivation absolutely cannot solely be fear of Hezbollah.

well.. hezbollah is hardly a guerilla group.. i think its been proven by now that its a pretty significant army.

 

[bob_arctor]

A MOVEMENT BASED AROUND THE CONCEPT OF 'resistance' GETS STRONGER THE MORE IT IS POUNDED ON BECAUSE IT JUSTIFIES ITS VERY EXISTENCE. You want to 'defeat' this sort of thing, then you have to CUT OFF it's public support because THAT IS the lifeline, THAT is what allows it mobility and flexibility and THAT is exactly what is swelling.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the offensive would continue until Hezbollah has been neutralized.

"We will not give up on our goal to live a life free of terror," Olmert said.

Ah. "Live life free of terror". I see. Perhaps that's code for "tactical nukes"? Sanitize the region and start over. After all, it would be nothing more than the "birth pangs of a new Middle East", no? If not, what to do with the streets brimming with (refound?) hatred and venom towards you, Israel? Your precision bombing hasn't made you any new friends, matter of fact, most of the world wants you to stop, but you won't because you want to "live a life free of terror". Well then, nice of you to lay it all on the table for us. Now stop half-assing it, throw on the jack boots and drive the heel deep. Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster, all that shit. Don't get all huffy when you're accused of savagery; moderation's for pussies. See all those people on TV condemning you? The ones bombed out of their homes not by the bad guys that "hide amongst them" but by the good guys that "live next door to them"? Yeah, you've gotta snuff them too. Sure, they want to live free of terror just like yourselves (and did until recently, ask the Americans in Lebanon) but now they're all uppity and shit and you never know what crazy terrorist group they'll be totally brainwashed by. Why take chances? Living life free of terror is hard, ruthless work and only tons and tons of death will help you towards that commendable goal.

Olmert, meanwhile, apologized for the civilian deaths.

"I am sorry from the bottom of my heart for all deaths of children or women in Qana," he said. "We did not search them out. ... They were not our enemies and we did not look for them."

See? That's what infuriates everyone! You pull off these decidedly monstrous attacks and then apologize like a little arrogant bitch with your nose up sniffing that high moral ground. Sure, you don't have to cackle and wring your hands together while pulling your best Mr. Burns but "sorry from the bottom of my heart"? :lol Who the **** believes that? Your PR guy?

 

[LuCkymoON]

eh? out of context.. okay.. i'll put it into context.. your views between israeli solders and us marines are quite different.. even when similar situations arise.. why is that?

and as far a joking.. well.. in the thread. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3523102#post3523102

you never say as such.. even when people directly asked you..


maybe its the fact that you said jews shouldnt be allowed to have a country thats bothering me.. i dunno.

All you have to do is check my next post in that thread. I'm sorry you don't "get it", So let me just say that I am far from being a Neo-con. :lol

I've never said jews did not have a right to have a homeland. Please quote me on that before posting such nonsense.

 

[fat]

'The UN cancelled an aid convey Sunday to the southern Lebanese town of Marjayoun after the Israeli army refused it permission to go ahead. The six-truck convoy to Marjayoun was loaded with relief supplies including medicines and food. A UN spokesperson said tens of thousands of people in the south were in desperate need of assistance.'

http://www.ameinfo.com/92734.html



What was the reason for this?

If it was too dangerous, couldn't the Israelis at least stop the attacks for a day or two until people get the help they need?

 

[Illuminati]

If it was too dangerous, couldn't the Israelis at least stop the attacks for a day or two until people get the help they need?

Because there is a ground operation going on in the southern part of the country. If Israel does not keep up the offense it will just give Hezbollah time to regroup, rearm, and reinforce.

 

[Slurpy]

Because there is a ground operation going on in the southern part of the country. If Israel does not keep up the offense it will just give Hezbollah time to regroup, rearm, and reinforce.

There's your answer fat. Good thing we have Benadryl here to give us updates on the ground.
The 3 R 'regroup, rearm, reinforce' statement is really catchy btw. I love it. What page of the 'Israeli Defence Manual for Dummies' is that on? Can't seem to find it.

 

[bob_arctor]

'The UN cancelled an aid convey Sunday to the southern Lebanese town of Marjayoun after the Israeli army refused it permission to go ahead. The six-truck convoy to Marjayoun was loaded with relief supplies including medicines and food. A UN spokesperson said tens of thousands of people in the south were in desperate need of assistance.'

http://www.ameinfo.com/92734.html



What was the reason for this?

If it was too dangerous, couldn't the Israelis at least stop the attacks for a day or two until people get the help they need?

The UN has as many humanitarian pathways as it needs. And anyway, this is Hezbollah's fault.

That'll be their stock reply. Or that letting the UN get through would allow Hezbollah time to "regroup and rearm".


Edit: LOL @ Benadryl Hitman.

 

[Illuminati]

There's your answer fat. Good thing we have Benadryl here to give us updates on the ground.
The 3 R 'regroup, rearm, reinforce' statement is really catchy btw. What page of the 'Israeli Defence Manual for Dummies' is that on? Can't seem to find it.

You won't find it in a manual, it's called common sense.

 

[bob_arctor]

You won't find it in a manual, it's called common sense.

Common sense, eh?

"Until civilians -- frankly, I'm not sure how many of them are actually just innocent little civilians running around versus active Hezbo types, particularly the men -- but until those civilians start paying a price for propping up these kinds of regimes, it's not going to end, folks. What do you mean, civilians start paying a price? I just ask you to consult history for the answer to that.”

"We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal . . . As for what you asked regarding the American people, they are not exonerated from responsibility, because they chose this government and voted for it despite their knowledge of its crimes in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and in other places."

See if you can find the common sense!

 

[Illuminati]

Common sense, eh?





See if you can find the common sense!

Uh what does that have to do with what I was talking about. I was talking about military strategy, not a political discussion. It's common sense that if you let up an attack on a weakened enemy is just going to oraganize, supply, runaway or fortify itself. It's not like Hezbollah will sit idlely by twiddling their thumbs till humanitary aide supplies have come through. Backing off will make it more difficult restarting the offensive again.

 

[Particle Physicist]

'The UN cancelled an aid convey Sunday to the southern Lebanese town of Marjayoun after the Israeli army refused it permission to go ahead. The six-truck convoy to Marjayoun was loaded with relief supplies including medicines and food. A UN spokesperson said tens of thousands of people in the south were in desperate need of assistance.'

http://www.ameinfo.com/92734.html



What was the reason for this?

If it was too dangerous, couldn't the Israelis at least stop the attacks for a day or two until people get the help they need?

maybe you should use a different source.. never heard of ameinfo.. but:::

associated press::
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MIDEAST_FIGHTING_AID?SITE=ALDOT&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

U.N. Aid Convoys to Lebanon Delayed

By FRANK JORDANS
Associated Press Writer

World Video


GENEVA (AP) -- Two U.N. aid convoys destined for southern Lebanon were halted Tuesday after failing to receive necessary security clearance from Israeli military forces and Hezbollah.

Christiane Berthiaume, a spokeswoman for the World Food Program, said one aid shipment intended for the coastal city of Naqoura and one for the hillside town of Rmaich, about 85 miles south of Beirut, were unable to reach their destinations.

The U.N. requires that Hezbollah and the Israeli army be notified of the route and timeframe for each convoy, and that the two sides acknowledge the information.

"We did not get the necessary concurrence, so we're not going," Berthiaume told The Associated Press.



Berthiaume said at least a dozen trucks with aid from WFP and other U.N. agencies were stuck in Beirut as a result. She would not specify whether Israel or Hezbollah, or both, was responsible for the delay.

On Saturday, Israeli government spokesman Avi Pazner blamed Hezbollah guerrillas for blocking convoys, saying they are "deliberately preventing the transfer of medical aid and of food ... to create a humanitarian crisis, which they want to blame Israel for."

The top U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Lebanon, Mona Hammam, said convoys so far had met "no problems" from Hezbollah.

Naqoura, close to the Israeli border, is the home of the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon, while Rmaich was the scene of an Israeli shell strike on an evacuation convoy Friday, in which a driver and a journalist were lightly wounded.

Traffic held up another convoy that set off Monday for Qana, where at least 56 people were killed in an Israeli airstrike, but the trucks reached the village Tuesday. Thousands of Lebanese fleeing the fighting crowded the road to Beirut, causing a bottleneck at a collapsed bridge, Berthiaume said.

"Our staffers say they counted some 2,000 vehicles heading toward Beirut, with up to 12 people in some of the cars," she said. "People are taking advantage of a lull in the fighting to flee north."

She said that two other aid shipments carrying food, water and medical supplies from Beirut to displaced people in the north and to the southern town of Tibnine were on their way as planned.

Jennifer Pagonis, a spokeswoman for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, said a shipment from Damascus, Syria, with 4,400 blankets, 3,000 family tents and hundreds of mattresses was held up for days due to safety concerns. The convoy was to arrive in Beirut on Tuesday.

edit..

oops.. this is what that article is about.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie..._AID?SITE=ALDOT&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

U.N. Sends Aid to Besieged Lebanese Towns

By FRANK JORDANS
Associated Press Writer

GENEVA (AP) -- The United Nations sent relief supplies to the besieged southern Lebanese town of Qana on Monday and to the coastal city of Tyre, officials said. However, U.N. officials added that convoys elsewhere in Lebanon are suspended because of the fragile security situation.

The two aid shipments left Beirut on Monday morning, said Christiane Berthiaume, Geneva-based spokeswoman for the World Food Program, which is coordinating convoys for the United Nations.

The convoy for Qana is carrying food and medical supplies for the town hit by a devastating air strike on Sunday in which more than 50 people, most of them children, were killed, Berthiaume said.

The WFP, however, was forced to cancel a planned convoy to Marjayoun in southern Lebanon, because the agency had not received clearance from the Israeli Defense Forces to drive along the planned route, said Berthiaume.

The U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees canceled one of three aid convoys carrying tents and essential supplies from the Syrian capital to Beirut "due to the general security situation," said UNHCR spokeswoman Jennifer Pagonis.

The UNHCR relief goods were meant to "help decongest overcrowded shelters" for refugees from fighting in southern Lebanon, but the shipment has been put on hold, Pagonis said.

The international Red Cross, whose aid shipments are coordinated separately, said Monday it halted a convoy heading for the village of Aytaroun about 15 kilometers (9 miles) north of the Israeli border due to fighting in the area.

Dorothea Krimitsas, a spokeswoman for the International Committee of the Red Cross, said without the convoy civilians stuck in Aytaroun after fleeing surrounding villages could not be evacuated as planned.

anyway.. its interesting what some news sites are focusing on.. and how they report the news.. israel IS allowing convoys through.. as seen through these two articles.. its just that sometimes they cant let them through.. either because of fighting.. or the convoys not getting the 'necessary security clearance '

 

[Enron]

From the CIA world fact book. Ethnic makeup of Lebanon.


Ethnic groups:
Definition Field Listing
Arab 95%, Armenian 4%, other 1%


Jeez Enron, you have no idea what Arab means do you?

5% are not arab. Like I said, all Lebanese != arab. Thanks for proving me right.

 

[Enron]

Also was a completely stupid statement to make, beyond stupid, moronic even and it betrays a lack of understanding about the place. I don't want to bash you but that statement has been debunked as hard as anything has on GAF and you STILL cling to that view of the region which is DISTORTED.

Oh what? You mean there AREN'T christians, druze, syrians, muslims in Lebanon? Uhm, ok. Yeah, i've got a distorted view of the place.

 

[Enron]

maybe you should use a different source.. never heard of ameinfo.. but:::

associated press::
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MIDEAST_FIGHTING_AID?SITE=ALDOT&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT



edit..

oops.. this is what that article is about.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie..._AID?SITE=ALDOT&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT



anyway.. its interesting what some news sites are focusing on.. and how they report the news.. israel IS allowing convoys through.. as seen through these two articles.. its just that sometimes they cant let them through.. either because of fighting.. or the convoys not getting hte 'necessary security clearance '

Dude, the AP is biased!

 

[fat]

'maybe you should use a different source.. never heard of ameinfo.. but:::'



AMEinfo is one of the biggest business and healthcare agencies in the ME. They pretty much get all their reports from the Reuters or AP...so that article is probably just outdated as you showed us.



I also never said that Israel is stopping all shipments of aid, but incidents such as these


'The international Red Cross, whose aid shipments are coordinated separately, said Monday it halted a convoy heading for the village of Aytaroun about 15 kilometers (9 miles) north of the Israeli border due to fighting in the area.'


from the article you posted, are the problem.

Israel should stop the fighting in that area temporarily. The welfare of the citizens in the area is more important than what Israel is doing there. It should not be Israel's right to prevent aid coming into a country that is not even their own.

 

[Particle Physicist]

All you have to do is check my next post in that thread. I'm sorry you don't "get it", So let me just say that I am far from being a Neo-con. :lol

this was your next response.. which was followed by this reply.. to which you said nothing more.. so...

~!Hi-fives!~

>_>

No retraction of the statement or even a nod to implied humour?

I've never said jews did not have a right to have a homeland. Please quote me on that before posting such nonsense.

Anyway imho there are two real problems that will make peace impossible:
The first came about late last century; Zionism.

i already pointed this out to you but::

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel

Since the founding of the State of Israel, the term Zionism is generally considered to mean support for Israel. However, a variety of different, and sometimes competing, ideologies that support Israel fit under the general category of Zionism, such as Religious Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, and Labor Zionism. Thus, the term is also sometimes used to refer specifically to the programs of these ideologies, such as efforts to encourage Jewish emigration to Israel. The term Zionism is also sometimes used retroactively to describe the millennia-old Biblical connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel, which existed long before the birth of the modern Zionist movement.

Certain individuals and groups have seized on the term Zionism and misuse it to justify attacks on Israel. In some cases, the label "Zionist" is also used improperly as a euphemism for Jews in general by those wishing to whitewash anti-Semitism (as in the Polish anti-Zionist campaign).

there. zionism can mean the general support for israel.. but it DOES NOT necessarily mean the support for the actions of the government.. there is a clear distinction here.. for instance.. i support the US.. in fact i love the US.. but i absolutely abhor what the current government has done (in the middle east and at home).. stop using the word zionist as a degrading term and stop saying that zionism is the root of all evil in the middle east.

k. thanks. bye.

 

[nightez]

If you believe that Israel is trying to avoid civilians then you must also believe that the world is flat. C'mon..... 2 Qana massacres in the space of less than 10 years and all by accident apparently :lol

What of the UN peacekeepers? What of USS Liberty? Must have been accidents....
The collective punishment of innocent people is the most immoral anyone could get.

..

 

[Particle Physicist]

'maybe you should use a different source.. never heard of ameinfo.. but:::'



AMEinfo is one of the biggest business and healthcare agencies in the ME. They pretty much get all their reports from the Reuters or AP...so that article is probably just outdated as you showed us.

well... that article had almost no info in it.. it just says israel halts convoy with no further explanation.. there was tons of info in the AP article.. but the the AMEinfo one made it seem like israel was just being malicious..

I also never said that Israel is stopping all shipments of aid, but incidents such as these


'The international Red Cross, whose aid shipments are coordinated separately, said Monday it halted a convoy heading for the village of Aytaroun about 15 kilometers (9 miles) north of the Israeli border due to fighting in the area.'


from the article you posted, are the problem.

Israel should stop the fighting in that area temporarily. The welfare of the citizens in the area is more important than what Israel is doing there. It should not be Israel's right to prevent aid coming into a country that is not even their own.

that i can agree on.. well.. i think that israel and hezbollah should stop the fighting.. not just israel.. but yeah...

 

[bob_arctor]

If you believe that Israel is trying to avoid civilians then you must also believe that the world is flat. C'mon..... 2 Qana massacres in the space of less than 10 years and all by accident apparently :lol

What of the UN peacekeepers? What of USS Liberty? They must have all been accidents....


..

Olmert, meanwhile, apologized for the civilian deaths.

"I am sorry from the bottom of my heart for all deaths of children or women in Qana," he said. "We did not search them out. ... They were not our enemies and we did not look for them."

From. The. Bottom. Of. His. Heart. What more do you want? Flowers??

 

[nightez]

From. The. Bottom. Of. His. Heart. What more do you want? Flowers??

their lives back


..

 

[bob_arctor]

their lives back

Yeah, well, hopefully they'll all be reincarnated after the "birth pangs of the new Middle East."

 

[ronito]

Yeah, well, hopefully they'll all be reincarnated after the "birth pangs of the new Middle East."

only to be "choked in the cradle of new democracy"

 

[bob_arctor]

only to be "choked in the cradle of new democracy"

Is that shit effin' unreal or what?

What we're seeing here, in a sense, is the growing -- the birth pangs of a new Middle East and whatever we do we have to be certain that we're pushing forward to the new Middle East not going back to the old one.

Holy Shitballs what arrogance. It boggles the mind.

 

[LuCkymoON]

i already pointed this out to you but::

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism






there. zionism can mean the general support for israel.. but it DOES NOT necessarily mean the support for the actions of the government.. there is a clear distinction here.. for instance.. i support the US.. in fact i love the US.. but i absolutely abhor what the current government has done (in the middle east and at home).. stop using the word zionist as a degrading term and stop saying that zionism is the root of all evil in the middle east.

k. thanks. bye.

I like how you didn't quote my whole statement where I also said that radical Islam is also the problem. Nationalistic zeal is always dangerous; this is something that simply can not be over looked. This has been proven by other nationalistic movements that turned dangerous in the past and the fact that christians and Jews lived in peace with Muslims before the European Zionist immigrated to palestine. Also as I said before Radical Islam didnt just throw fuel on the fire, it was naplam.
BTW are you implying that the Jewish people can not have a homeland without Zionism? If Zionism was the movement to get Jewish people a homeland in palestine "at all cost"; then of course that was the wrong way to go about it. Too many other people were hurt in the process and thats just wrong. If you still insist on calling me an anti-semite, feel free. I do not care to read any more of the tripe you have written over the last 5 post.

 

[APF]

Holy Shitballs what arrogance. It boggles the mind.

It boggles the mind how legitimate such comments are? I agree; there really is a struggle going on between legitimate democrats and popular militant/Islamist groups using the democratic process as a means to gain entry into power, and how democracies--and the world-at-large--should respond.

 

[bob_arctor]

It boggles the mind how legitimate such comments are? I agree; there really is a struggle going on between legitimate democrats and popular militant/Islamist groups using the democratic process as a means to gain entry into power, and how democracies--and the world-at-large--should respond.

Hey, don't tell me, tell every single person in the ME she offended. They're the idiots that don't know she means well.

 

[wiiboxstation]

This is what Islam truely thinks of Judaism, War, etc



Question: What is the background behind the execution of a number of Jews living in Medina during the time of Muhammad?

Answer: (8 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19860117_01.mp3



Question: Is the history of Muslim rule nothing but bloodshed?

Answer: (5 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19840718_01.mp3



Question: Will there be a third world war? When will it occur according to Islam?
Answer: (9 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19841125_02.mp3



Question: What areas of the world will not be affected by the Third World War when it occurs?

Answer: (5 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19841125_17.mp3


Question: Can a parallel between drawn between the dispersion of the Jews from Israel and the dispersion of the Arabs from Palestine?

Answer: (2 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19840712_08.mp3



Question: Should a settlement be attempted between the Muslims and the Jews in regards to the Temple of Solomon and Al-Aqsa Mosque?

Answer: (6 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19850419_07.mp3




Question: What really is Jihad?

Answer: (25 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19840904_01.mp3



Question: What are your thoughts about those political powers which use religion to influence and control their people?

Answer: (5 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19840723_05.mp3



Question: Couldnt Judaism be sufficient for mankind if it is practiced in its entirety and its original purity?

Answer: (6 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19850629_06.mp3

 

[ronito]

oh yay! Now instead of having to spend 20+ minutes reading stupid stuff, I can spend 20+ minutes listening to stupid stuff!

 

[The Stealth Fox]

This is what Islam truely thinks of Judaism, War, etc



Question: What is the background behind the execution of a number of Jews living in Medina during the time of Muhammad?

Answer: (8 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19860117_01.mp3



Question: Is the history of Muslim rule nothing but bloodshed?

Answer: (5 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19840718_01.mp3



Question: Will there be a third world war? When will it occur according to Islam?
Answer: (9 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19841125_02.mp3



Question: What areas of the world will not be affected by the Third World War when it occurs?

Answer: (5 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19841125_17.mp3


Question: Can a parallel between drawn between the dispersion of the Jews from Israel and the dispersion of the Arabs from Palestine?

Answer: (2 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19840712_08.mp3



Question: Should a settlement be attempted between the Muslims and the Jews in regards to the Temple of Solomon and Al-Aqsa Mosque?

Answer: (6 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19850419_07.mp3




Question: What really is Jihad?

Answer: (25 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19840904_01.mp3



Question: What are your thoughts about those political powers which use religion to influence and control their people?

Answer: (5 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19840723_05.mp3



Question: Couldnt Judaism be sufficient for mankind if it is practiced in its entirety and its original purity?

Answer: (6 minutes) http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/19850629_06.mp3

Alright, I haven't listened to these recordings, but this is from a Ahmadi/Qadiyani site, which is pretty much out of the mainstream of Sunni Islam. Now, AS I SAID, I don't know if their statements are representative of the classical Islamic position, because someone can be out of hte mainstream and still say something correct.

I could write pages and pages on the classical Islamic position towards Judaism with loads of documentation, but this isn't really suited towards a game forum. But do not take these people as mainstream Sunni Muslims.

Edit: I've listen to some of the recordings, and generally, there is good in what they're saying. But it's pretty much the same old tune that Muslims have been singing in the west. Not that the tune is incorrect, but the problem is people won't accept these arguments just beacuse a Muslim said so... because objectors tend to want to create problems. So they need to be overwhelmed with historical (as in references to the works of jurists as well as the classically authenticated literature of the early history of Islam).

And I really don't like that last recording. As always, I defer to classical works, not modern sects. So I suggest that this subject be untouched for now, and keep it political, not religious.

Edit2: I have no idea why Islam was brought into the topic. The above post is senselessly apologetic, and this is coming from a Sunni Muslim.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I like how you didn't quote my whole statement where I also said that radical Islam is also the problem.

cause it was irrelevant.. i was responding to your misuse of the word zionism..

Nationalistic zeal is always dangerous; this is something that simply can not be over looked.

that i can agree on.. but there are different levels of it.. and calling someone a zionist in a degrading way is completely watering down the term..

This has been proven by other nationalistic movements that turned dangerous in the past and the fact that christians and Jews lived in peace with Muslims before the European Zionist immigrated to palestine.

that is not fact at all.. jews were always considered second class citizens.. they werent persecuted, at least not that i can think of at the moment.. but they did not have the same rights as the rest..

Also as I said before Radical Islam didnt just throw fuel on the fire, it was naplam.
BTW are you implying that the Jewish people can not have a homeland without Zionism? If Zionism was the movement to get Jewish people a homeland in palestine "at all cost";

how many times do i have to point out the damn definition to you.. "Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel" where the hell do you see "at all costs" those are your own words.. stop muddling up the definition of the word.

then of course that was the wrong way to go about it. Too many other people were hurt in the process and thats just wrong.

if i have remembered it correctly.. when israel declared Independence.. it was invaded by the arab states surrounding it.. fighting also started before the invasion, but in smaller clashes among muslims and jews..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#War_of_Independence_and_migration

The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land, and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.

Immediately following the adoption of the Partition Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the partition, while the Arab League rejected it.

why the hell was it rejected? dunno.. maybe they wanted more land.. or no jewish land at all.. i dunno.. but if they had accepted it.. the palestinian people would have been in a much better place than they are now..

the means of the zionist movement of the late 1800 and early 1900 to create a jewish state was to buy land and create farms.. "kibbutzim" socialist farms.. how evil is that?

obviously everything was not rosy.. as with the radical jewish group Irgun which attacked the british military headquarters .. they did some malicious acts.. but their goals were never to kill arabs.. they were to kick the british out and allow unrestricted immigration to jews into palestine and to create a jewish state..

and like everyone seems to argue.. just because there are some radical groups.. doesnt mean they all are radical.


anyway.. its clearly not a black and white history.. and there si so much to it.. here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Zionism_and_Immigration

read up a bit..

If you still insist on calling me an anti-semite, feel free. I do not care to read any more of the tripe you have written over the last 5 post.

please point out to me where i called you an anti-semite? you are the one labelling yourself that.. and my last five posts just included posting some unbiased AP articles that showed several sides to this thing.. you call that tripe? are you saying the AME article had the same amount of info as the AP article and did not portray Israel as being unnecessarily malicious?? do you also not agree with this statement i made: "that i can agree on.. well.. i think that israel and hezbollah should stop the fighting.. not just israel.. but yeah..." ???

 

[wiiboxstation]

Alright, I haven't listened to these recordings, but this is from a Ahmadi/Qadiyani site, which is pretty much out of the mainstream of Sunni Islam. Now, AS I SAID, I don't know if their statements are representative of the classical Islamic position, because someone can be out of hte mainstream and still say something correct.

I could write pages and pages on the classical Islamic position towards Judaism with loads of documentation, but this isn't really suited towards a game forum. But do not take these people as mainstream Sunni Muslims.

Edit: I've listen to some of the recordings, and generally, there is good in what they're saying. But it's pretty much the same old tune that Muslims have been singing in the west. Not that the tune is incorrect, but the problem is people won't accept these arguments just beacuse a Muslim said so... because objectors tend to want to create problems. So they need to be overwhelmed with historical (as in references to the works of jurists as well as the classically authenticated literature of the early history of Islam).

you will be surprised if you read text of Ahmadis/Qadiyanis, that how close they are to sunni's compared to how far shia's are to sunni's. the only difference being Jesus's mortality and the meaning of the arabic word "khatme-Nabuwat" with that I mean just like Jesus did not bring any new law or a book but actually taught everything from the jewish old testament, he was both a reformer and a prophet. the new testament is generally man written, just like that Mohammad saw was the last law giving prophet and everyone who follows will use the Quran and the teachings of Mohammad saw to propogate Islam, not a new religion.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

you will be surprised if you read text of Ahmadis/Qadiyanis, that how close they are to sunni's compared to how far shia's are to sunni's. the only difference being Jesus's mortality and the meaning of the arabic word "khatme-Nabuwat".

I don't need to be "surprised" with anything, because I've dealt with Ahmadis myself. And what you present is a difference an 'aqaid, an area in which there is room for very little difference of opinion. It doesn't matter who is "closer" to classical Islam, and trying to bring Shi'is into this is just pretty much a red herring tactic.

Ahmadis try to pull this card, but the creedal differences are there (and if the creed isn't straight, it casts suspicion on the authority in issues of fiqh, which warrants close examination, hence why I posted the above disclaimer "these people are not mainstream"). And there are certainly creedal differences that may consider people who hold those beliefs outside the fold of Islam. Now, I'm not saying they are all outside the fold, since one doesn'tknow what's in people's hearts, but it is of scholarly opinion (those that have been classically trained and went through the ijaza curriculum, and I believe that this is the most historically developed authority, as well as logical, but that's a seperate topic) that if you hold believe A,B, and C, you are outside the fold of Islam.

I objected simply because you presented the site as the mainstream Islamic position, which is not true.

 

[wiiboxstation]

I object simply because you presented the site as the mainstream Islamic position, which is not true.

well to each his own.

 

[Slurpy]

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34189

MIDEAST:
'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana'
Dahr Jamail

QANA, Aug 1 (IPS) - Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.

The Israeli military has said it bombed the building in which several people had taken shelter, more than half of them children, because the Army had faced rocket fire from Qana. The Israeli military has said that Hezbollah was therefore responsible for the deaths.

"There were no Hezbollah rockets fired from here," 32-year-old Ali Abdel told IPS. "Anyone in this village will tell you this, because it is the truth."

Abdel had taken shelter in a nearby house when the shelter was bombed at 1 am. When the bombings finally let up in the morning, he went back to the bombed shelter to search for relatives.

He found his 70-year-old father and 64-year-old mother both dead inside.

"They bombed it, and afterwards I heard the screams of women, children, and a few men -- they were crying for help. But then one minute after the first bomb, another bomb struck, and after this there was nothing but silence, and the sound of more bombs around the village."

Masen Hashen, a 30-year-old construction worker from Qana who lost several family members in the air strike on the shelter, said there were no Hezbollah rockets fired from his village. "Because if they had done that now, or in the past, all of us would have left. Because we know we would be bombed."

Qana had been a shelter because no rockets were being fired from there, survivors said. "When Hezbollah fires their rockets, everyone runs away because they know an Israeli bombardment will come soon," Abdel said. "That is why everyone stayed in the shelter and nearby homes, because we all thought we'd be all right since there were no Hezbollah fighters in Qana."

Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched rockets from Qana.

"We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear of either of those."

Another Red Cross worker, 32-year-old Mohammad Zatar, told IPS that "we can tell when Hezbollah has been firing rockets from certain areas, because all of the people run away, on foot if they have to."

While IPS was interviewing people in Qana at the site of the shelter Monday, Israeli warplanes roared overhead. Vibrations from nearby bombing rattled many buildings. At least three villages in southern Lebanon were attacked in Israeli air strikes Monday.

Following the international outcry over the air strike, Israel declared a 48-hour cessation of air strikes in order to carry out a military probe into the Qana killings.

Despite the false Israeli statement that it was halting its air strikes, Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon told Army Radio that the stoppage "does not signify in any way the end to the war."

Israel has rejected mounting international pressure to end the 20-day-old war against Hezbollah. The United Nations has indefinitely postponed a meeting on a new peacekeeping force for southern Lebanon.

While defending the Israeli air strike on the civilians in Qana, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations Dan Gillerman told the UN Security Council that Qana was "a hub for Hezbollah", and said that Israel had urged villagers to leave.

Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres said in reply to questions in New York Monday that the bombing was "totally, totally its (Hezbollah's) fault." (END/2006)

Kind of explains why Israel released a 'video of a similar situation', and not the actual thing. I can already hear the select posters hear scrambling to type that this is bullshit, but for what reason are you so willing and ready to accept Israel's version of events?

 

[bob_arctor]

Kind of explains why Israel released a 'video of a similar situation', and not the actual thing. I can already hear the select posters hear scrambling to type that this is bullshit, but for what reason are you so willing and ready to accept Israel's version of events?

Oh why must you be so difficult? We are birthing a new Middle East. What are you, some kind of breach baby? I mean, come on, if our government bombed the hell out of, say, Queens, in order to root out terrorists "hiding amongst civilians" surely everyone in this country would be fine with it.

 

[effzee]

Kind of explains why Israel released a 'video of a similar situation', and not the actual thing. I can already hear the select posters hear scrambling to type that this is bullshit, but for what reason are you so willing and ready to accept Israel's version of events?

ok seriously when will u get it? israel apologized! the deaths are ok as long as there is a apology.

 

[Enron]

This is about to get a whole lot worse.

Syria has told its military to "ready itself".

 

[bob_arctor]

LINK

Three news agencies on Tuesday rejected challenges to the veracity of photographs of bodies taken in the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike in Lebanon, strongly denying that the images were staged.

Photographers from The Associated Press, Reuters and Agence France-Presse all covered rescue operations Sunday in Qana, where 56 Lebanese were killed. Many of their photos depicted rescue workers carrying dead children.

"These photographers are obviously willing to participate in propaganda," Limbaugh said. "They know exactly what's being done, all these photos, bringing the bodies out of the rubble, posing them for the cameras, it's all staged. Every bit of it is staged and the still photographers know it."

:lol :lol Hey Enron, they really are biased!

 

[bob_arctor]

At least 624 people, mostly civilians, have been killed in Lebanon. The health minister put the toll at 750 including bodies buried under rubble. Fifty-four Israelis have been killed, 36 of them soldiers.

Can anyone estimate how many actual Hezbollah guys have been offed?

 

[m0dus]

This is about to get a whole lot worse.

Syria has told its military to "ready itself".

Yeah, looks like the US will half to amp-up bomb delivery for when the IDF starts lobbing them on the Beduin slums outside of Damascus . . .

 

[APF]

Can anyone estimate how many actual Hezbollah guys have been offed?

Israel says it has killed 300 of the estimated 2,000 Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon during its three-week offensive.

"Hezbollah has taken a serious beating, and that is why the pressure of a ground offensive will produce the expected results," Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon said Tuesday on Israeli Channel 10.

A Hezbollah spokesman says 43 of its fighters have been killed, Reuters news service reported.

via

 

[bob_arctor]

via

Thank you kind sir.

Spoiler

Still can't believe you defended that Condoleeza remark btw. YOU should do the shuttle diplomacy cuz the way you worded what she was getting at was at least way less gag-inducing then hers.