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It's time to stop hating on Unity
- Thread starter BurritoBushido
- Start date
Because licensing engine makers intentionally market directly at non-engine-users to try and get the base to pressure devs into licensing their engine.
Pretty sure blueprint isn't particularly fast lol.
GhostTrick
Banned
I dont have a problem buying a Unity game. But I know that when I buy a Unity game, most of the time, it'll get my GPD Win suffer. Even simple looking games make it suffer.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I disagree. Talk about engines. And get nuanced about it. Is it just stock engine with little alterations? Is this an engine that has been modified heavily to fit the game?
The thing is, engines often share the same issues, so to white wash that and pretend it's not worth discussing? No, fuck off. Sorry but engine is a discussion point pertinent to a game. Game devs need to put their big pants on and own up to the decisions, good or bad, they've made.
The thing is, engines often share the same issues, so to white wash that and pretend it's not worth discussing? No, fuck off. Sorry but engine is a discussion point pertinent to a game. Game devs need to put their big pants on and own up to the decisions, good or bad, they've made.
pixelpatr0n
Banned
Inside
Not really.
Enter the Gungeon
Night In the Woods
Hollow Knight
Ori and the Blind Forest
Superhot
None of those?
Woo-Fu
Banned
Is it really hate for Unity or is it hate for the very low average quality of games developed on Unity? Sure, there are exceptions but they're just that: Exceptions.
Somebody early tried to make a comparison to hating on Frostbite due to Andromeda but that person completely missed that again it is an exception, but this time the exception is the crappy game.
Hating on the majority of Unity games is just fine.
Somebody early tried to make a comparison to hating on Frostbite due to Andromeda but that person completely missed that again it is an exception, but this time the exception is the crappy game.
Hating on the majority of Unity games is just fine.
Weltall Zero
Member
Well this is kind of new, I haven't seen a lot of people recommend UE4 for 2D development. In fact I'm having trouble finding examples of well-known 2D games developed with it, anyone know some? This is relevant to me as I'm making a 2D game.
depths20XX
Member
Thanks for the advice, dabbler dude.
If a game runs like shit, it runs like shit. Triple A games still have issues so it's fucking hilarious that Unity gets picked out as some problem when it's already been proven some of the best games of this gen have been created with it.
captainraincoat
Banned
From my experience with it....i hate fucking coding so i rely on visual based scripting commands and utilise the endless resources of other people banging their head against the wall to get my ideas to work
Or
I can simply import my shit into ue4 and have some of the same basic functionality up and running in minutes and can pretty much view or play concepts on multiple devices with little fuckaround....i dont sell my shit so its great for me.
Or
I can simply import my shit into ue4 and have some of the same basic functionality up and running in minutes and can pretty much view or play concepts on multiple devices with little fuckaround....i dont sell my shit so its great for me.
It's not a deal breaker, but I play certain games and there's that first stutter and I realise I'm going to have to deal with it for the duration. Not to pretend other engines don't have issues, but there's a very consistent feel to the issues in Unity games over a certain scale.
if you're doing 2D i'd look into Game Maker instead.
Atom Heart Mother
Banned
I don't hate it but it isn't very optimized. Rust runs like shit.
Hooks
Member
Ain't that the truth I got 16gb ram, i5 4690k @ 4.4ghz, gtx 1070 and Rust constantly stutters
Blueprint is just good for prototyping object behavior quickly before investing a serious amount of time into developing whatever you're working on.
The whole Twitter thread really should be in the OP: https://twitter.com/adrian_a_forest/status/887521247113879552
It isn't so much about Unity specifically as it is about how discussions about game engines tend to assume they're the end-all be-all when it comes a game's performance, without much merit. This thread isn't really proving him wrong.
It isn't so much about Unity specifically as it is about how discussions about game engines tend to assume they're the end-all be-all when it comes a game's performance, without much merit. This thread isn't really proving him wrong.
Unity makes it easy for less skilled programmers to make games, so lots of stuff gets made that's poorly optimized. It's not because it's a bad engine, it's because there's a lower barrier to entry for developers. As a former shitty programmer, I've made several shitty games in Unity that I probably wouldn't have been able to figure out how to make in other engines.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Cookie Dough
Member
I understand his feelings on this, but this just isn't their job and I hope no game journalist actually thinks this is something they should do.
If a game is using a particular engine, and someone feels it's relevant enough to what they're saying to bring it up, then that person has no reason not to, even if they lack full understanding on the technical aspects of the engine. If a game has problems that are often seen in other games running the same engine, that is also worth raising. Helping developers just isn't what a journalist should be considering first.
Like it or not but Unity has developed a reputation, probably an unfair one but it's key to keep in mind that games are consumer products, people tend not to be forgiving when they feel they paid for something that isn't living up to what it should be in some way. I'm sorry but deal with it - either prove people wrong and sales should follow (Inside, Ori, etc) or change engines if it's such a big problem, which I honestly doubt it is.
osnameless
Member
I thought this was about AC Unity and I was ready to go to bat for you. I don't really have any input on this though.
I may have to make the thread defending AC Unity myself someday
Haha, I was exactly the same
anyway, the fact that Moon Studios made Ori and the Blind Forest using Unity is enough is more than enough for me,
That game is too pleasing to look at and so darn fun to play
Atom Heart Mother
Banned
I have 16gb RAM and Rust at one point used 10gb of RAM. Awful optimization.
Don't you mean rust isn't very well optimized? The game runs better with almost every single update (and probably runs 2x as well as it did a year or two ago) and somehow it's the engine that's entirely responsible for it's performance?
Ritzboof
Member
i have never understood the hate on unity. its one of the best engines ever made, and the fact that incompetent weirdos can make anything on it should be a testament to that. there are a ton of really stunning, amazing games out there that are made using the unity engine, as well
it gives a lot of indie devs the power to make extremely high quality games, and we wouldnt have stuff like grow home or distance or a ton of other shit if it werent for how amazing of an engine unity is. peeps that think unity = garbage literally dont know anything
it gives a lot of indie devs the power to make extremely high quality games, and we wouldnt have stuff like grow home or distance or a ton of other shit if it werent for how amazing of an engine unity is. peeps that think unity = garbage literally dont know anything
SeeNoWeevil
Member
This is the response I got when I asked why Micro Machines runs at 30fps on the PS4 Pro
Unity ¯\_(ツ_/¯
Unity ¯\_(ツ
_/¯
phant0m
Member
Why do I need to stop criticizing something that has had continuously poor performance across multiple platforms and studios?
Oh, because it's easy for devs to use and doesn't take a cut?
It's fine for side-scrollers and isometric stuff but straight up awful for first/third person 3D. I can't believe there's a crusade to "stop hating". You guys just always looking for a cause, eh?
Oh, because it's easy for devs to use and doesn't take a cut?
It's fine for side-scrollers and isometric stuff but straight up awful for first/third person 3D. I can't believe there's a crusade to "stop hating". You guys just always looking for a cause, eh?
Like others have posted in this thread, the problem is somewhere in the middle. Yes, a lot of games are made by inexperienced developers and they don't know/understand the intricacies of optimising (for Unity). Game development is hard.
Yes, Unity has some issues that they have to address themselves. Namely the garbage collector and less then stellar performance on consoles. Game engine development is hard.
Unity has enabled plenty of people to get into game/creative application development, so in my opinion the net result is that Unity Is Good.
Not buying a game outright because it's made in Unity is just asinine, though. Being concerned because it's made in Unity is fine.
source: am (Unity) game developer
Yes, Unity has some issues that they have to address themselves. Namely the garbage collector and less then stellar performance on consoles. Game engine development is hard.
Unity has enabled plenty of people to get into game/creative application development, so in my opinion the net result is that Unity Is Good.
Not buying a game outright because it's made in Unity is just asinine, though. Being concerned because it's made in Unity is fine.
source: am (Unity) game developer
LordRaptor
Member
This is the response I got when I asked why Micro Machines runs at 30fps on the PS4 Pro
Unity ¯\_(ツ
I mean... What are they gonna say?
That even the PS4 "Pro" has ass single threaded performance?
"Bu-bu-but The Order 1886!
POWAH of PLAYSTATION is a BEAST!
Just multithread everything lazy devs!"
Yeah I do think this is one of those rare cases where the issue is somewhere in the middle.
Really hope the new job system and compiler solve some of these console issues though.
JustSomeone
Member
UE4 is also open and much better.
Eh I mean BluePrint is nice but I hate visual coding with a passion and you will eventually hit a limit, I would kill for actual C# support (which is being worked on)
JustSomeone
Member
There's c++ support.
Me and a lot of other devs are more comfortable with C#. C++ is great but there are a few things I just don't want to mess with.
Like I said though, C# support is being worked on for UE4, so when that is in I will give it another shot.
LightningXCE
Member
There have been updates on pushing console performance, and once the new Mono stuff is in, it should help a lot - especially with garbage collection. I mean, hell, until recently, there was no proper LoD system, and it was a few years ago we finally got culling - thankfully that's been improved massively.
But yes, this comes down to a lot of engine utilization - most small, no budget indie games are just thrown together asset bundles that the devs downloaded from the store with jumbled up code they found online. I'm by NO MEANS dissing devs (hey I make games in Unity) but a lot of the "crappy" examples people show are usually this.
You can't just throw all kinds of different ingredients into a blender, turn it on, and expect stuff to taste good.
Be more concerned about the developer, not the engine. Remember, we've seen insanely amazing stuff come out of Game Maker in its early days. I mean, I'm part of a team that's working on Gen 2 Pokemon ROM games, and we're pushing that engine further than it ever has been because we have a good set of devs (and the Gen 2 engine is trash lol).
But yes, this comes down to a lot of engine utilization - most small, no budget indie games are just thrown together asset bundles that the devs downloaded from the store with jumbled up code they found online. I'm by NO MEANS dissing devs (hey I make games in Unity) but a lot of the "crappy" examples people show are usually this.
You can't just throw all kinds of different ingredients into a blender, turn it on, and expect stuff to taste good.
Be more concerned about the developer, not the engine. Remember, we've seen insanely amazing stuff come out of Game Maker in its early days. I mean, I'm part of a team that's working on Gen 2 Pokemon ROM games, and we're pushing that engine further than it ever has been because we have a good set of devs (and the Gen 2 engine is trash lol).
LordRaptor
Member
No, that is completely untrue.
Why do you think that is the case?
Because certain "journalists" have pushed that narrative.
That is why the quote in the OP is talking about how journalists have fucked things up, and the longer extrapolation of that quote is that if someone doesn't even fucking understand what an engine actually does, maybe they should not even be bringing it up in any discourse surrounding a game, for the same reasons nobody mentions if FMOD is used in a game or not.
I'd be interested in this too. 2D in Unity certainly gave us some headaches at times, but the last time I looked into UE4 I haven't found much about 2D with it.
Should play Ori then.
Ori is a great game but at least when I last played, it wasn't smooth even on a powerful pc. Stutters and bad framepacing everywhere.
This sums it up.
I'm no expert at Unity, but I know it pretty well and work with C# daily. I would suggest a lot of the stuttering issues are due to misuse of the garbage collector. Treat it like you're working with C++ and properly manage your memory use and it should be fine. This is more an issue of C# than of Unity itself.
DevilSnake
Member
Unity should look into a developer grant system similar to UE4, improve their image by providing a few talented indie devs with more resources to better utilise the engine.
They've done great work over the years making a game engine available & affordable to everyone. But it wouldn't hurt to attract a few higher caliber developers that would otherwise go the UE4 route.
They've done great work over the years making a game engine available & affordable to everyone. But it wouldn't hurt to attract a few higher caliber developers that would otherwise go the UE4 route.
until it produces more consistent results on consoles it will always get criticism. you could argue that blame should be placed squarely on the developers for choosing that engine in the first place instead of something more easily optimized for the system. but you could also argue the engine shouldn't be such a pain in the arse to get good results out of on consoles.
i mean, yes, ori is a well optimized game, it's also a simple 3D platformer and is platform holder backed as an exclusive so it's hardly a particularly fitting game to bring up when we're talking about unity games on a whole.
i honestly think the main issue is where these games are developed. they're usually made on PC where you can easily brute force your way through shitty optimization and get away with it. at this point, given it's popularity you'd think the engine would be able to run a game like soma or firewatch better than it does on PS4. there isn't really any excuses for the engine or the developers using it. use UE4 or something, save everyone the headache.
i mean, yes, ori is a well optimized game, it's also a simple 3D platformer and is platform holder backed as an exclusive so it's hardly a particularly fitting game to bring up when we're talking about unity games on a whole.
i honestly think the main issue is where these games are developed. they're usually made on PC where you can easily brute force your way through shitty optimization and get away with it. at this point, given it's popularity you'd think the engine would be able to run a game like soma or firewatch better than it does on PS4. there isn't really any excuses for the engine or the developers using it. use UE4 or something, save everyone the headache.
LightningXCE
Member
Because I constantly see it, and from being a developer with Unity for over 5 years now, It becomes very clear when that's the case.
I'm saying Unity is a good engine, but incompetent developers kill it with practices such as this.
LordRaptor
Member
You and others seem to be under the impression its "Use Unity because you're a fucking idiot or use Unreal like REAL
When the choice is actually "Use Unity or don't make the game in the first place".
I mean, if you console kiddies actually want less games released on your gaming platform to sneer at and say "will wait for PS+", keep up the good work pre-emptively shitting on developer engine choice bros.
e:
Where?
Where do you constantly see a majority of games being "asset flips" and transposed c# tutorials?
I mean, I regularly participate in Ludum Dare which is the roughest of the rough in terms of budget, polish, and optimisations, and I don't see any of this shit.