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[shinra-bansho]

It seemed to work for PC gaming. Its also only one part of a whole strategy that Nintendo's trying to do. They're literally casting the widest net of options to them to try and have something stick. It may or may not work out, but lets not blame them for trying something.

Throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks doesn't really strike me as a sound strategy.

I'm not sure what you mean with regard to PC gaming, I don't think people are running out in droves to get PCs for indie games. But this narrative that people have constructed where consumers are going to go out and get their fancy new Wii U just to play a bunch of eShop indie games is just silly.

Nintendo's real strategy is relatively obvious at this stage. Release Mario Kart U, 3D Mario, Zelda and so on. Perhapse coupled with a price cut, although their wording has indicated against it. And hopefully that will either recapture the casual userbase or at least increase sales to the Nintendo faithful that haven't yet jumped onto the platform.

(I should note, I don't consider the unpredictable break-out hit to be something one should expect to occur. Could it happen? Sure. But I don't think one should count on it.)

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Also to reiterate, i would like to see an article regarding the EA and Nintendo fight please. Since i wasn't aware of that issue. And nothing is coming up it seems.

Not sure if the best article, but this seems to throw some of the bits together, including some of those sources: http://www.gamnesia.com/articles/wii-us-operating-system-was-rushed-but-its-not-what-you-think

 

[Chindogg]

Throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks doesn't really strike me as a sound strategy.

I'm not sure what you mean with regard to PC gaming, I don't think people are running out in droves to get PCs for indie games. But this narrative that people have constructed where consumers are going to go out and get their fancy new Wii U just to play a bunch of eShop indie games is just silly.

Nintendo's strategy is relatively obvious at this stage. Release Mario Kart U, 3D Mario, Zelda and so on. And hopefully that will either recapture the casual userbase or at least increase sales to the Nintendo faithful that haven't yet jumped onto the platform.

(I should note, I don't consider the unpredictable break-out hit to be something one should expect to occur. Could it happen? Sure. But I don't think one should count on it.)

If you don't think PC gaming has made a rocketlike resurgence due to indie titles, then I'm not sure if you're playing on PC.

When 3rd parties are basically shunning the system for whatever reason, what's wrong with trying everything to make it work? Seriously what do you expect them to do? Scrap the system and build a guaranteed failure in pricing and development just so they might be able to scrape some ports?

What the hell are you expecting them to do?

 

[Vinci]

What the hell are you expecting them to do?

Piddle through, as they've done before. And next time release something that people might actually want at a price tag that people might actually be willing to pay.

Or, you know, release some games for the thing. Just a thought.

 

[Chindogg]

Piddle through, as they've done before. And next time release something that people might actually want at a price tag that people might actually be willing to pay.

Or, you know, release some games for the thing. Just a thought.

That's basically what they're doing. But for some reason its somehow a bad thing to try to exhaust every option to get this thing back on track.

 

[shinra-bansho]

If you don't think PC gaming has made a rocketlike resurgence due to indie titles, then I'm not sure if you're playing on PC.

I don't recall saying that. I thought it was pretty clear I was referring to hardware sales as a result of such software, in analogy to the Wii U's situation?

When 3rd parties are basically shunning the system for whatever reason, what's wrong with trying everything to make it work? Seriously what do you expect them to do? Scrap the system and build a guaranteed failure in pricing and development just so they might be able to scrape some ports?

What the hell are you expecting them to do?

I don't know. Perhaps invest in building an audience and environment where third parties can succeed with the titles they make, or stop paying lip service to the idea that you want them on your platform.

Not just hope that whatever third parties are still putting games on your systems don't bomb entirely or have some sort of breakout hit that inspires regret from other publishers for not getting in on that action.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Compared to what, exactly? PS4 & Durango? Sure. PS3 and 360? No.

So then you agree that the Wii U is a last gen console? Ok.

 

[Zoramon089]

So then you agree that the Wii U is a last gen console? Ok.

I like how you saw what you wanted to

 

[H_Prestige]

This is why Nintendo making a PS4 spec comparable system just wouldn't happen. Consumer expectations. As much as we try to deny it, we know it as a legitimate fact.

Except with comparable hardware they would get a lot more games. So it would be worth the higher price.

But they're trying to sell the Nintendo box for $300 when people are use to paying far less for that. I got my GC for $99 and it came with Melee.

 

[Vinci]

That's basically what they're doing. But for some reason its somehow a bad thing to try to exhaust every option to get this thing back on track.

Mostly I'd like to see Nintendo dramatically build up its 1st party capabilities, support smaller 3rd party efforts, and collaborate with big 3rd parties with projects where and when it makes sense. So long as both Sony and MS are factors in the console market, Nintendo will never - NEVER - receive preferential or even cursory support from 3rd parties.

EDIT @ H_Prestige: People were dropping over $400 for the Wii and Wii Fit combo. There is no finite limit on what people will pay for a 'Nintendo console.' There is, however, very clearly a minute market willing to pay so much for the Wii U.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I like how you saw what you wanted to

And what is that?

 

[diaspora]

And what is that?

You said it's last gen, he said it doesn't quite fit the realm of either.

If you see me on Gaming Side being a jackass, contact Blackace and Bish immediately

 

[jay]

When 3rd parties are basically shunning the system for whatever reason, what's wrong with trying everything to make it work? Seriously what do you expect them to do? Scrap the system and build a guaranteed failure in pricing and development just so they might be able to scrape some ports?

What the hell are you expecting them to do?

What Nintendo system is this post about?

 

[Glass Joe]

Is not that hard to do Glass, is just common sense. There are products, ones that are not even subsidized, that feature a lot of more hardware than what the Upad contains and the cost does not reach 150 dollars. Just a quick Amazon search by price would be enough.

I feel you're dismissing my post by tearing down a point that isn't related to the overall message conveyed. I also enjoyed the examples you linked! Whatever.

Since the console uses streaming tech that is unique to Wii U, I don't see how comparing the prices of other products is actually possible by using "common sense" anyway. But let's just say that the gamepad is now $65 (or whatever unsubsidized link you'd toss out). Then I suppose that streaming tech inside the console must cost $35. Happy? Let's move on. Because unless you are arguing that the Wii U is being sold for a profit, IMO what you're doing is an irrelevant nitpick anyway. My overall message was about Nintendo regarding third party indies and I'd like to stick to that topic.

 

[Chindogg]

Except with comparable hardware they would get a lot more games. So it would be worth the higher price.

But they're trying to sell the Nintendo box for $300 when people are use to paying far less for that. I got my GC for $99 and it came with Melee.

Yeah all that comparable hardware worked out for N64 and Gamecube didn't it.

No one will pay $500 for a Nintendo system. You'll still get the idiots saying that the company only makes "kiddie" games and will stick with a MS or Sony product. That's just the reality of things.

Nintendo has to do its own thing. It just can't keep up with the mega conglomerates' willingness to lose their ass on consoles in hopes that it'll pick up. Sony lucked out that PS3 did the last couple of years. It was looking insanely dire for them.

What Nintendo system is this post about?

Read the OP then answer your own question. Does no one read these threads anymore before interjecting their opinions?

 

[speedpop]

I don't know why people are bothering too much about the 3rd party situation. It's not as if those games aren't going to be available elsewhere.

The whole thread stinks of a peacock fight.

 

[nubbe]

What Nintendo system is this post about?

n64, gamecube, wii, wiiu probably

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

You said it's last gen, he said it doesn't quite fit the realm of either.

If you see me on Gaming Side being a jackass, contact Blackace and Bish immediately

No. I didn't say it's last gen (I have gone on record on GAF and have said it's new gen multiple times, actually). If I was saying it was last gen I would have stated that he agreed with ME. I said that according to that post he agreed it was last gen. While graphical output isn't everything, it's definitely an important barometer. Two times in a row now Nintendo has released hardware which lined up to the previous gen of consoles in terms of power. With the Wii they were lucky that the Wiimote and WiiSports caught on to distinguish it from the pack. This time the Gamepad isn't catching on. But based on those (EA for example) who do measure gens by power, the Wii U is last gen. I personally don't agree with it but the argument has been made by those who are in the business.

Edit: And regarding my tag, have at it.

 

[RedSwirl]

There is a comparative difference between the PS1-era gamer and the dudebro gamer. I knew what people would call a dudebro gamer in college... He owned a PS2 and only played EA Sports games and GTA. Meanwhile, I find it hard to believe that Kingdom Hearts did not appeal to young children as it was a game based on Disney franchises. I also know that Final Fantasy back in the day appealed to women more. There is a marked difference between the audience for Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts and the audience for GTA and Halo.

I would argue that the idea of the dudebro gamer actually began with the PS1 era. That was the point where a lot of console gaming became more heavily centered on the 15-35 male demographic instead of Nintendo's all-ages approach.

But really, the "dudebro" gamer in my opinion has almost always existed, or at least since the NES era. My brother was a "dudebro" gamer back in the oldschool days if there ever was such a thing. On NES he mostly just played Contra (which was basically the Gears of its time) and Tecmo bowl. On SNES he mostly just played Madden, Mortal Kombat, and Street Fighter II (which in my opinion was the "dudebro" game of its time). He and all of his friends played a shitload of NES and SNES but hated pretty much all of Nintendo's first party games because they were "too kiddy."

This is without considering these indies are likely going to want to publish on other platforms as well to actually profit from their ventures.
Final Fantasy's primary target demographic is still males aged 15-35. That's not saying it doesn't have broader appeal, as does Kingdom Hearts. But they were just examples pulled off the top of my head. Gran Turismo, Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid, Tekken, Tony Hawk.

I would actually argue that FF's main target is more like males age 13-25. One of the producers even admitted he was okay if people "grew out" of Final Fantasy. I think demographics is one of the big differences between the Japanese and western game industries.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Developers avoid the Nintendo ecosystem which Nintendo has worked hard to build to lean heavily in their favor. They have ignored major trends in gaming at the expense of third party developers since the n64

N64: carts
GC: smaller discs, non-standard button arrangement in controller and an exterior designed to appeal to young girls
Wii: GC tech and waggle

And now there is Wii U bucking the common trends again. 7th generation technology when developers are spending good resources developing or licensing next generation engines optimized for more powerful hardware.

Are devs avoiding Wii U for technological reasons alone? No. Is it a very major issue not to be ignored or understated? Very much yes.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Developers avoid the Nintendo echo system which Nintendo has worked hard to build to lean heavily in their favor. They have ignored major trends in gaming at the expense of third party developers since the n64

N64: carts
GC: smaller discs, non-standard button arrangement in controller and an exterior designed to appeal to young girls
Wii: GC tech and waggle

And now there is Wii U bucking the common trends again. 7th generation technology when developers are spending good resources developing or licensing next generation engines optimized for more powerful hardware.

Are devs avoiding Wii U for technological reasons alone? No. Is it a very major issue not to be ignored or understated? Very much yes.

Exactly. For many of us who buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games it doesn't matter since many of us have a PC and will buy a PS4/XB3 but it doesn't really help Nintendo as a company when they lose an entire group of potential customers due to how they handle hardware.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Wow this thread went places

 

[shinra-bansho]

I would argue that the idea of the dudebro gamer actually began with the PS1 era. That was the point where a lot of console gaming became more heavily centered on the 15-35 male demographic instead of Nintendo's all-ages approach.

I'd say it wasn't so much that the industry became centered purely on 15-35 males during the 5th generation as it broadened to include older audiences. Sure, there were older teens and adults gaming prior, but the PlayStation essentially took video games more mainstream and beyond the realm of being viewed as just "children's toys." Publishers saw how lucrative this market could be and capitalized on it.

The Wii took this broadening to the next step essentially.

I would actually argue that FF's main target is more like males age 13-25. One of the producers even admitted he was okay if people "grew out" of Final Fantasy. I think demographics is one of the big differences between the Japanese and western game industries.

I wouldn't disagree with that assessment in terms of Final Fantasy, more of a subset of the broader gaming demographic.

 

[JordanN]

Nintendo has to do its own thing. It just can't keep up with the mega conglomerates' willingness to lose their ass on consoles in hopes that it'll pick up.

Why can't they do both?

Nintendo already doesn't compete with MS/Sony. Why not make life easier and make the hardware more powerful?

Despite all the flak N64 and Gamecube got, they were never in a dire situation like the Wii U.

 

[Chindogg]

Why can't they do both?

Nintendo already doesn't compete with MS/Sony. Why not make life easier and make the hardware more powerful?

Despite all the flak N64 and Gamecube got, they were never in a dire situation like the Wii U.

READ. THE. THREAD.

So tired of having to constantly repeat myself and others' posts.

 

[Risette]

You don't have to lose money to make more powerful consoles than Wii U's luddite hardware from 328 BC.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Yeah all that comparable hardware worked out for N64 and Gamecube didn't it.

No one will pay $500 for a Nintendo system. You'll still get the idiots saying that the company only makes "kiddie" games and will stick with a MS or Sony product. That's just the reality of things.

Nintendo has to do its own thing. It just can't keep up with the mega conglomerates' willingness to lose their ass on consoles in hopes that it'll pick up. Sony lucked out that PS3 did the last couple of years. It was looking insanely dire for them.

Nintendo put out good hardware with the GC, though the mini discs were a problem. But Nintendo was still in the mindset that it didn't need third party support in order to be successful and third parties felt it. Yet, Nintendo still was able to have better third party support on the GC than it did on the Wii and most likely will on the Wii U.

I'd argue that if Nintendo in fact had released a more competitive Wii U hardware wise with the PS4/XB3 and was reaching out to third parties as they allegedly are, have an improving online system, a better digital store, better relationships with independents, that the Wii U would be much better off than it is. While I love the gamepad, had they not included it and instead used the dollars to beef up the system the Wii U would probably have more third party support currently and going forward.

It isn't just 'Well the GC/N64 had competitive hardware and it didn't get support'. There are many more reasons why those didn't get significant third party games. Many of these reasons have allegedly been fixed this generation. The one constant going back to the Wii is the weak hardware.

READ. THE. THREAD.

So tired of having to constantly repeat myself and others' posts.

I have read the thread and fervently disagree with your argument.

 

[JordanN]

READ. THE. THREAD.

So tired of having to constantly repeat myself and others' posts.

Uh, I read the thread. Now would you answer my question?

 

[Chindogg]

Uh, I read the thread. Now would you answer my question?

Sigh...

Yeah all that comparable hardware worked out for N64 and Gamecube didn't it.

No one will pay $500 for a Nintendo system. You'll still get the idiots saying that the company only makes "kiddie" games and will stick with a MS or Sony product. That's just the reality of things.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Sigh...

Who is arguing for a $500 system? Nintendo is ALREADY losing money on the Wii U. Had they not included the gamepad, it's likely they could have had significantly more power on the Wii U and sold it at $350-400.

The next Xbox and Playstation will most likely have subsidized models available. You're telling me Nintendo couldn't work with cable companies to provide that model? Better to release a $350-400 system that you lose money on that SELLS than a $350-400 system that you lose money on that DOESN'T sell.

 

[Chindogg]

Who is arguing for a $500 system? Nintendo is ALREADY losing money on the Wii U. Had they not included the gamepad, it's likely they could have had significantly more power on the Wii U and sold it at $350-400.

"Nintendo needs to make a comparable specced system to PS4 and Nextbox."

Current rumors put both systems are $400-500.

"Who's arguing for a $500 system?"

 

[JordanN]

Sigh...

If costs are such a problem why doesn't Nintendo just wait for the tech to be cheaper? I'm pretty sure that's how they were always able to push out powerful hardware while selling it for a cheap price. Or, they could always use something that is half as powerful.

As for the kiddies thing, does Nintendo have money? Does Nintendo know how to spend money? Buy something that will convince people their console isn't kiddy or whatever.

Or even better, make a non-kids game yourself.

 

[Risette]

Comparable doesn't mean equal. The PS2 was comparable to the GC and Xbox, but it was still weaker.

Let's say Nintendo used an A10 Trinity APU (since all the other manufacturers are using APUs), which is sold to consumers for around $129, meaning that Nintendo would get it much cheaper in bulk quantities -- how would they lose money? It would be much more powerful than what they have now, and be comparable, but not equal.

The Wii U is instead a generation behind what the PS4 and 99.9% likely Durango are doing.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

"Nintendo needs to make a comparable specced system to PS4 and Nextbox."

Current rumors put both systems are $400-500.

"Who's arguing for a $500 system?"

Nintendo could release a system that is the PS2 of this generation. Comparable to it's competition though not as powerful. Nobody says the Wii U has to be AS powerful in every way but Nintendo is including 2GB of ram, 1-1.5gb which is usable for games. Sony is including 8gb of faster ram, 6-7gb which will be available for games. Microsoft will offer close to the same. That is RIDICULOUS. Nintendo could have gone with 4GB even and it would have made a big difference.

Comparable doesn't mean equal. The PS2 was comparable to the GC and Xbox, but it was still weaker.

Let's say Nintendo used an A10 APU (since all the other manufacturers are using APUs), which is sold to consumers for around $129, meaning that Nintendo would get it much cheaper in bulk quantities -- how would they lose money? It would be much more powerful than what they have now, and be comparable, but not equal.

The Wii U is instead a generation behind what the PS4 and 99.9% likely Durango are doing.

And he accuses us of not reading the thread. smh.

 

[PBY]

"Nintendo needs to make a comparable specced system to PS4 and Nextbox."

Current rumors put both systems are $400-500.

"Who's arguing for a $500 system?"

He means other stuff- more competitive online infrastructure, reaching out more to 3rd parties, etc.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

If costs are such a problem why doesn't Nintendo just wait for the tech to be cheaper? I'm pretty sure that's how they were always able to push out powerful hardware while selling it for a cheap price. Or, they could always use something that is half as powerful.

As for the kiddies thing, does Nintendo have money? Does Nintendo know how to spend money? Buy something that will convince people their console isn't kiddy or whatever.

Or even better, make a non-kids game yourself.

What is the ideal perfectest non-kid game they could make?

 

[Meesh]

This idea that becoming some sort of indie mecca, in absence of major third party publisher support, is going to spur recovery is frankly the most bizarre wishful thinking.

I agree, but I think taking the industry as it stands today as a whole, at least as far as I understand things with more and more houses closing shop and how hard it's become to make a buck... I believe indies in general can make a huge impact with unique experiences across the board, a renaissance of gaming that harkens back to those golden SNES years that not just plays on our nostalgia heart strings but offers a next gen flavor. With more and more indies hitting the scene, why not? There's no shortage of talent out there

 

[Tookay]

Sigh...

So because N64 and GCN didn't work out 10-15 years ago, in a completely different market, Nintendo must rely on gimmicks/innovations/low-powered hardware forever?

Sometimes I question whether this logic extends as far as you think it does. After all, if Nintendo was supposed to shun every idea that at one point failed, then they wouldn't have gone back to 3D gaming or wouldn't have gone with the third-pillar approach at all after Virtual Boy.

 

[Chindogg]

Or even better, make a non-kids game yourself.

Just because a game doesn't have gratuitous amounts of blood or sex, doesn't make it a kids game. Zelda and Metroid have been dark before. Donkey Kong and Mario has been exceptionally challenging before.

Maybe Mario just needs to have a Hot Coffee mod for people to get off that stupid stereotype.

Comparable doesn't mean equal. The PS2 was comparable to the GC and Xbox, but it was still weaker.

Let's say Nintendo used an A10 Trinity APU (since all the other manufacturers are using APUs), which is sold to consumers for around $129, meaning that Nintendo would get it much cheaper in bulk quantities -- how would they lose money? It would be much more powerful than what they have now, and be comparable, but not equal.

The Wii U is instead a generation behind what the PS4 and 99.9% likely Durango are doing.

The fact that people constantly compare industrial hardware purchasing the consumer hardware purchasing still makes me facepalm harder than anything. Hell, we still don't know all the aspects of the GPU, don't bullshit and say we do because the tech thread clearly disagrees with that statement. Is PS4/Nextbox more powerful? Of course. A full "generation?" Still debatable.

He means other stuff- more competitive online infrastructure, reaching out more to 3rd parties, etc.

Did you not read the thread? That's exactly what's happening. Once again, they're expanding development platforms. They expanding their publishing wings to help 3rd party studios release games. Jesus Christ the lack of reading comprehension is mindblowing.

Some kind of realistic military shooter? Or an action adventure game with mature themes?

There's a wide variety of genres to choose from.

You mean like Prime, Other M, or Twilight Princess?

 

[JordanN]

What is the ideal perfectest non-kid game they could make?

Some kind of realistic military shooter? Or an action adventure game with mature themes?

There's a wide variety of genres to choose from.

 

[Risette]

What is the ideal perfectest non-kid game they could make?

A Metroid game that isn't bad would be an easy pick.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

So because N64 and GCN didn't work out 10-15 years ago, in a completely different market, Nintendo must rely on gimmicks/innovations/low-powered hardware forever?

Sometimes I question whether this logic extends as far as you think it does. After all, if Nintendo was supposed to shun every idea that at one point failed, then they wouldn't have gone back to 3D gaming or wouldn't have gone with the third-pillar approach at all after Virtual Boy.

Exactly. The N64/GC may as well have been from another galaxy they are so long ago. Before online multiplayer became the norm, before the app store, before social networking, digital distribution, etc.

 

[Infinite]

Developers avoid the Nintendo ecosystem which Nintendo has worked hard to build to lean heavily in their favor. They have ignored major trends in gaming at the expense of third party developers since the n64

N64: carts
GC: smaller discs, non-standard button arrangement in controller and an exterior designed to appeal to young girls
Wii: GC tech and waggle

And now there is Wii U bucking the common trends again. 7th generation technology when developers are spending good resources developing or licensing next generation engines optimized for more powerful hardware.

Are devs avoiding Wii U for technological reasons alone? No. Is it a very major issue not to be ignored or understated? Very much yes.

I don't think devs avoided the game cube for those reasons. Hell, I don't even think devs avoided the Wii for the reasons you listed

 

[Tookay]

I don't think devs avoided the game cube for those reasons. Hell, I don't even think devs avoided the Wii for the reasons you listed

Then why did devs deny themselves another source of revenue, if not for the significant compromises/divergences they'd have to make to have a game on Nintendo hardware?

I don't think "Nintendo fans don't buy third-party software" or "third parties don't like Nintendo" can effectively answer that question entirely.

 

[JordanN]

Just because a game doesn't have gratuitous amounts of blood or sex, doesn't make it a kids game.

Well they have to make something that people are buying on the 360/PS3/PC in mass and I don't think Metroid and Zelda cut it (although they're a move in the right direction).

 

[serplux]

Then why did devs deny themselves another source of revenue, if not for the significant compromises/divergences they'd have to make to have a game on Nintendo hardware?

Because Howard Lincoln was a jackass.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Then why did devs deny themselves another source of revenue, if not for the significant compromises/divergences they'd have to make to have a game on Nintendo hardware?

I've heard that third parties just hate Nintendo and conspire to avoid putting their games on Nintendo hardware.

This is what's so frustrating. Nintendo has made big strides in so many areas and the only area it hasn't is in the hardware arena.
Digital distribution? Check and improving
Indies? Check
DLC? Check
Multiplayer? Check
No more need for Nintendo Friend Code? Check

The only thing that really is still a weakness is the hardware.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Some kind of realistic military shooter? Or an action adventure game with mature themes?

There's a wide variety of genres to choose from.

They need to drop X and or fatal frame. X like xenoblade should be mature enough.

A Metroid game that isn't bad would be an easy pick.

Hopefully retro doing that.

edit: If metroid doesnt cut it thats too fucking bad Im sorry

 

[Infinite]

Then why did devs deny themselves another source of revenue, if not for the significant compromises/divergences they'd have to make to have a game on Nintendo hardware?

I don't think "Nintendo fans don't buy third-party software" can effectively answer all those questions.

I don't know why you're asking me that question. Someone posted a list of reason why devs avoided Nintendo hardware in the pass I simply say that those reasons are very shitty ones and what factor into the lack of third party support on the gamecube and probably the Wii

 

[Risette]

The fact that people constantly compare industrial hardware purchasing the consumer hardware purchasing still makes me facepalm harder than anything.

Uh, did you not read my post? I acknowledged that. The thing is, large-scale hardware purchasing makes it cheaper, not more expensive.

Economies of scale 101.