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Iwata: "Wii cannot be defined as healthy" -in Japan-
- Thread starter TunaLover
- Start date
Third parties are copying Nintendo's successes rather than being original.le.phat said:
Brain age clones
Wii Fit clones
Wii Fit clones
Nintendogs clones
Except they fail to realise that once people have bought the Nintendo product they are satisfied and have no need for another similar product.
It also didn't help that in the beginning the Wii was seen as a Wi Sports machine and nothing more. I know this helped it's success but the media could have helped by mentioning the other games available on the system.
radioheadrule83
Banned
le.phat said:
It costs as much as a standard Xbox 360 in a lot of territories (more than the Arcade), its SD, and Nintendo front-loaded the system with huge first party titles in 2007/8 and has since relied on a bevy of half baked efforts from third parties who didn't forsee the popularity of the system. And to be fair to it, it has had plenty of small, under-appreciated third party efforts as well.
Its still raping the other systems in many many respects performance wise (both software and hardware), but not in Japan, where its ripe for a relaunch. Nintendo are criticizing the console more than anyone else at the moment... maybe they're gearing up shareholders for future hardware announcements.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
They need to change the six month before release politics ASAP.
It hasnt work, time to change to the hype train. At least it will mantain the hardcore fans happy (waiting), and that is what they need at the moment (as the have conquered the casual market). If not they are not going to get a big boost next gen (this gen they have fullfilled their plans, but what will happen next if they continue pissing off people).
6 months and no hype is not selling games, at least if you are going to stay with the 6 months thing start hyping like shit (at least we know the majority are going to be good games). Ads and more ads of great upcoming games is what they need right now.
And im very happy with my wii, but they really need to do something fast.
It hasnt work, time to change to the hype train. At least it will mantain the hardcore fans happy (waiting), and that is what they need at the moment (as the have conquered the casual market). If not they are not going to get a big boost next gen (this gen they have fullfilled their plans, but what will happen next if they continue pissing off people).
6 months and no hype is not selling games, at least if you are going to stay with the 6 months thing start hyping like shit (at least we know the majority are going to be good games). Ads and more ads of great upcoming games is what they need right now.
And im very happy with my wii, but they really need to do something fast.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I dunno.SpacePirate Ridley said:
The six month thing works fine.
The two month thing is terrible.
Six month successes are things like Punch-Out, more than likely NSMB, Mario Kart, Super Paper Mario, etc.
Two month successes are....uh...Crossbow Training sold okay. Wii Fit+ might count?
Year+ successes are Brawl, Galaxy, Zelda, and that's pretty much it.
(I am not sure where to place WSR, because it was announced, went quiet for over a year, then hyped a month before release).
Six months seems perfect to me, they just have to make sure those six months aren't completely dry. It wasn't until a month ago that people realized NSMB Wii was going to be amazing rather than simply better than the DS game (which is not the highest bar among Mario games), despite an E3 reveal.
Plus the data around it isn't really consistent. Take Muramasa and Wario Land, for example. Both similar games, both announced and previewed with radically different schedules. Both were sales bombs pretty much everywhere.
Meanwhile, we can look at other games with insanely long hype periods on other systems. Too Human was announced in 2006, came out in 2008, and sold under a million copies (do not take this to mean "just under" a million, it's just not on the list of million sellers I am looking at). That's not close to making up the $80 million it cost to make.
I think six months keeps people from growing disgruntled, while still giving the hype time to grow. That said, Nintendo's failure is keeping those six months a desert when they need to be finely managed.
I thought the reason they stopped announcing anything was because they never knew when development would finish, and people kept complaining about delays. Can't complain when you weren't told it's supposed to come, right?
But, I dunno. Can they really not know a few months in advance?
But, I dunno. Can they really not know a few months in advance?
Chittagong
Gold Member
ZAK said:
Ormberg said:
They have. NST still doesn't have an announced Wii game (or that many DS games), Retro's been quiet for 3 year, the console Zelda team started defining controls not a long time ago, Monolith just released a Disaster and it was far from the original concept, Monster Games took three years to make an update on Excite Truck, HAL disappeared after Brawl (which was just a small collaboration), Intelligent Systems made THREE Wii games before disappearing for more than two years... damn, I could go on if I had patience to look for every Nintendo studio. I am not even considering second parties (there still isn't a single game with a budget the size of the vast majority of Rare N64 games - which launched many games with incredible quality consistently throughout the N64's life). Second party support just isn't worst because some teams are incredibly talented, and managed to make great games even with small teams and budget; games that were then left to dust on shelves by Nintendo, with no advertising whatsoever. They HAVE been constantly releasing titles with smaller budget, but those are taking too long to develop (Line Attack Heroes, Span Smasher, etc, blablabla...), and promotion has been from none to negative (like in Disaster, with Reggie bashing the game and all).
Seriously, a game company must be prepared to scrap some projects. Still, it shouldn't make a game feel like a DS port (AC CF), another game lack lots of features (Wii Music), and that be all for a holiday, creating a hiatus between summer 07 and summer 09. And, worst of all, not learn a lesson with it - NSMBWii and Wii Fit Plus, a goddamn expansion pack (a pretty great one, but still an expansion pack), are the only things for the holiday.
What could they do? That is so easy it is funny - Make more partnerships. Instead of making partnership for the exclusivity of Fatal Frame 4 so then they could not advertise it and block the launch overseas, Nintendo should do more stuff like Metroid OM or the Layton series. They should up their second party support, expanding those studios and making bigger games with them. They should expand their studios even more; instead of waiting four years for the new R&D building to be ready, they should simply buy a building and hire people from renowned team to make big new IPs. They should revise their teams and development strategy so they don't take 3/4 years to make games that are going to be considered let downs after release due to lack of innovations (hello TP, hi Animal Crossing, how are you doing Mario Baseball).
As sidenote: Heck, look at StarFox Command; how could a big profile Nintendo title hit such a low in budget, graphics, art, style, content, presentation and gameplay ideas?
What they mean with the quote is: tout WF+ as an improvement of the first so they can sell for everyone that bought the first and advertise the hell out of Mario, appealing to the nostalgia factor so people will buy no matter how it looks like could've been a DS title sold for less. Oh, and put WSR on TV again.
They have nothing but that to go for for this holiday. It is the only thing left, and I hope they fail badly. Failing Nintendo is much better, with their different styles for console and portable games, brand new sequels instead of expansion packs, high budget titles ranging across all different genres and skills, ground breaking new IPs and a symbol of innovation on the industry, for the industry.
bafflewaffle
Member
DeaconKnowledge
Member
GeekyDad said:
UGH.
Why would the president of a publicly traded company intentionally deep six the most successful console since the PS2?
the thoroughbred
Member
All these studio's that haven't released anything make me believe, they all have secret high budget games about to ripen. I sense a smell of turmoil and excitement in the air. The seeds of 2006-07 are about to bear juicy fruit.
Probably just wishful thinking.
Probably just wishful thinking.
Razien said:
U think the problem is that Nintendo has decided to rest on it's evergreen titles. They are making so much money form games they made 2 years ago that they don't feel a need to rush out new games, or make games with bigger budgets when they will probably sell no more than they would have normally. It has been a disaster that other than Punch-Out, ( a low budget game) there has not been one notable (new) Nintendo title that has been released since Animal Crossing (a DS port) in the Q4 of 2008. That game right there should have told us that Nintendo is going to go for a minimal approach to some games hoping that they will sell regardless and become evergreens. To an extent AC CF was a stop-Gap game, Filler, and I am praying that NSMBWii will not be another as well.
Spend less, earn more is what it seems is Nintendo's new Mantra lately. I'm just hoping 2010 sees the release of more notable titles and announces with more partnerships. It's Amazing we have yet to see a new DK, Starfox, or F-Zero game...
brandonh83
Banned
Cheez-It said:
This is just speaking for myself personally but the last Wii game I purchased was Mario Galaxy. This was 2 years ago from this month actually. I think Smash Bros. games have terrible control and they're kind of boring to me so I passed on Brawl, Mario Kart was actually pretty good but after I played it for a few hours at a friend's house I didn't really feel the urge to buy it. So while they have been putting out decent first party titles, it's been extremely pathetic and it's just incredibly annoying that they're doing so well yet I don't feel any sort of software effort from them at all outside of one or two good games per year. That said, two of the best games I've ever played were for the Wii: Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess. And the new Zelda in development, along with NSMB Wii and Mario Galaxy 2, well it gives me a more positive outlook for the system but if you were to ask me I would say that yes, Iwata's latest claims about the Wii software "lacking" is putting it about as kindly as it can be put.
You're right, NSMB will sell like hotcakes, and rightfully so, it looks awesome. But it's the first game since Galaxy that I've been interested in for the system, and it's another Mario game. And that's fine, the more great Mario games in my life the better. But still, it's saying something on the quantity and variety sides of the spectrum. Nintendo is a great company with tons of talent in their employ and they're living one of the greatest console successes of their career. So where's the software?
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Bizzyb said:
I dont think Punch-Out!! is a low budget game. Minus menus all the other things scream work and money.
Come on, the animations and the voice-overs are top-notch (getting famous dubbers from different countries).
Yeah, it hasnt cost the same as Mario Galaxy, Brawl or Zelda, but low budget?
I wanted Nintendo to release more games since they got successful, sadly that's not the case.
I fucking loved the Wii's 2007 line up, every like two months I had a game I wanted to play, that lasted until the next game. I was also playing Zelda at the time, which helped give me a positive outlook on the system. This lasted until early 2008 with the release of Brawl(which was a slight disappointment, I still like it a lot though). And this has been the longest drought I have ever had with Nintendo. I'm not a fan of Punchout, didn't care for Animal Crossing, and I didn't want to buy Pikmin 1&2 since I already got them on the Gamecube.
I'm looking forward to NSMBWii, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid: Other M, No More Heroes 2, Epic Mickey, Zelda Wii, and the new Nintendo IP's. Other than NSMBWii their all 2010 releases.
I fucking loved the Wii's 2007 line up, every like two months I had a game I wanted to play, that lasted until the next game. I was also playing Zelda at the time, which helped give me a positive outlook on the system. This lasted until early 2008 with the release of Brawl(which was a slight disappointment, I still like it a lot though). And this has been the longest drought I have ever had with Nintendo. I'm not a fan of Punchout, didn't care for Animal Crossing, and I didn't want to buy Pikmin 1&2 since I already got them on the Gamecube.
I'm looking forward to NSMBWii, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid: Other M, No More Heroes 2, Epic Mickey, Zelda Wii, and the new Nintendo IP's. Other than NSMBWii their all 2010 releases.
gamergirly
Member
SpacePirate Ridley said:
Why exactly do they decide to have these 6 month release gaps? They've had numerous interviews that have indicated they worked on multiple games at the same time in the past. It's not just their core releases but also "what" kind of releases they are doing.
Wii Fit Plus and Wii Sports Resort could be considered major releases. But to their hardcore/traditional fanbase, the only major game we will see is New Super Mario Bros Wii and to a lesser degree, Metroid Prime Trilogy. One game in ten months is the bottom line.
And that's really the problem. They need a MAJOR release every 6 months to keep us from feeling so starved. There are other titles I'm very interested in purchasing for the Wii by the end of this year(Final Fantasy Crystal Bearers, Cursed Mountain, etc.). It will also help the momentum keep going. What's the point in releasing 3 major games in one year when you can release 4 in two years?
Pureauthor
Member
Vinci said:
DSi XL, DSi S, DSi SS, DSLiteBrite
WrenchNinja
Member
Who's laughing now Iwata?
...You know, I think it's still you.
...You know, I think it's still you.
Vinci said:
Nintendo spends a lot of time prototyping and testing their games and a lot of market research. They do need to start promoting quality 3rd party efforts with their marketing muscle. If they could use their position to promote 3rd party games the myth that there hasn't been anything to play on the platform would start to slide away. The games media has decided on the narrative that the Wii doesn't have games to play so they do not cover games on the Wii, they don't play games on the Wii, and they ignore Wiiware/VC completely. Nintendo is right to move around the games media.
Well, can they do that? Do you think they're just sitting on their hands? Do you think they're holding their titles back in order to release them in some bizarre staggered arrangement? Do you think "casual" development is so seriously crippling their ability to make "good" games?gamergirly said:
I don't mean for it to sound like any of these are ridiculous. I'm honestly asking, what do you think is going on?
JoshuaJSlone
Member
FWIW, top publisher/platform combinations for 2009 releases. These come from the ~27.5 million total sales I've got through the week starting October 12.Chittagong said:
Code:
Square Enix DS 4.96 M
Pokémon DS 3.04 M
Nintendo DS 2.61 M
Nintendo Wii 2.20 M
Namco Bandai PSP 1.23 M
Capcom Wii 1.18 M
Namco Bandai DS 0.84 M
Level Five DS 0.70 M
Konami PS2 0.64 M
Namco Bandai PS3 0.64 MIron Toaster
Member
That's too bad.
gamergirly
Member
ZAK said:
I have no idea. It's really what I'm asking. Why are releases so far and few in between? Minimizing costs? Is it actual development time? Are they doing this for strategy? What's really happening in Kyoto? They pulled this with Gamecube. With the Wii, they're in a much better position financially, market-wise they're healthy(despite the recent reports and our gripes). There's gotta be some real reason why. Even new IPs?
LegendofJoe
Member
I'm really starting to get the feeling that Nintendo is cooking up some surprises from the hardware side of their business. Almost everyone pointed and laughed at Michael Pachter when he made the prediction that Nintendo would release the successor to the Wii in 2010, but I think time is going to prove him right.
As I see it there are only two ways Nintendo can keep the Wii momentum alive. The first if to release games (attached with peripherals or not) that create new types of experiences in order to expand the Wii's market. The second is to focus on bringing in serious 3rd party support. Of the two the most realistic approach is to expand the types of games available for the Wii. A combination of these approaches is possible, as this can be done both internally and externally with 3rd party support, but we all know Nintendo has never had much luck working with outside publishers. However, the situation Nintendo currently finds itself in is the best opportunity they've had since the NES to rectify this problem.
The big publishers want to support the Wii, they realize the potential behind the idea of using their development teams to create new types of games in order to expand their market reach. The problem is they just aren't very good at it (which is why by and large they copy Nintendo). And the largest factor for why this is so is because the most talented development teams are all devoted to pushing the technical envelope. They don't want to take a step back to work with the Wii. And the big publishers are, for the most part, unwilling to persuade them to do so. Nintendo has the power to change this. They are the market leader in the eyes of the average consumer, they set the rules for when the next generation of consoles hits the market (Sony completely screwed this up by taking so long to launch the Ps3). The ball is in their court and all they have to do is refine motion control, add something new and exciting to the console, and increase the specs beyond what the Ps3 and 360 are capable of matching and I think the best 3rd party development teams will finally change their tune.
The biggest wild card is what Microsoft is cooking up with Natal. Are they simply repackaging and re-branding the 360 to launch with Natal, or are they releasing an entirely new console with the Natal tech embedded from the start?
As I see it there are only two ways Nintendo can keep the Wii momentum alive. The first if to release games (attached with peripherals or not) that create new types of experiences in order to expand the Wii's market. The second is to focus on bringing in serious 3rd party support. Of the two the most realistic approach is to expand the types of games available for the Wii. A combination of these approaches is possible, as this can be done both internally and externally with 3rd party support, but we all know Nintendo has never had much luck working with outside publishers. However, the situation Nintendo currently finds itself in is the best opportunity they've had since the NES to rectify this problem.
The big publishers want to support the Wii, they realize the potential behind the idea of using their development teams to create new types of games in order to expand their market reach. The problem is they just aren't very good at it (which is why by and large they copy Nintendo). And the largest factor for why this is so is because the most talented development teams are all devoted to pushing the technical envelope. They don't want to take a step back to work with the Wii. And the big publishers are, for the most part, unwilling to persuade them to do so. Nintendo has the power to change this. They are the market leader in the eyes of the average consumer, they set the rules for when the next generation of consoles hits the market (Sony completely screwed this up by taking so long to launch the Ps3). The ball is in their court and all they have to do is refine motion control, add something new and exciting to the console, and increase the specs beyond what the Ps3 and 360 are capable of matching and I think the best 3rd party development teams will finally change their tune.
The biggest wild card is what Microsoft is cooking up with Natal. Are they simply repackaging and re-branding the 360 to launch with Natal, or are they releasing an entirely new console with the Natal tech embedded from the start?
Fourth Storm
Member
gamergirly said:
I can see how one can argue both sides on this topic, but the Wii 2009 was actually quite eventful. We got a resurrection of a classic franchise, which most people seemed to really enjoy (Punch Out). We got a sequel to launch title which Gaf was in love with, but most everybody seems to ignore despite its vast improvements and online play (Excitebots). We got Wii fucking Sports Resort complete with Motion+. That's a huge title. Then we get a sequel/update to one of the biggest sellers of this gen (Wii Fit). And of course NSMB Wii. I'm not really counting NPC games, but it should be noted DK: Jungle Beat featured all new levels. And that's a fantastic game. Oh, and Excitebike is yet to come...
Perhaps we overestimate the amount of manpower Nintendo has. After all, we know Miyamoto and a presumably large amount of EAD staff are working on Zelda. EAD Tokyo is working on SMG2. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Pikmin 3 ain't happening this gen. With no news and Miyamoto's recent comments on HD serving the series well, I could see them holding off.
Among the other teams, it seems some are keeping busy and some have just failed to deliver. We know Factor 5 were working on Pilotwings and Rogue Squadron 4 before they went belly-up. I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo had Retro working on an Icarus revival but have continuously "upended the table" when they aren't satisfied with the results...Intelligent Systems just came out with M&L3 this year. Who am I leaving out?
Fourth Storm
Member
rpmurphy said:
We're in a global recession. Remember? Apparently, Dragon Quest is immune.
Wrath2X said:
Really meant in regards to all this talk about how the Wii isn't doing well now in Japan, etc. Sure they are still making tons but the slow down wouldn't be there if did things a little differently. They already brought in the new customers. Yet they keep acting as if they have to bring in more and more while not doing (it is arguable I agree) job of satisfying already brought into the fold. There is only so much hardware you can sell considering things get resold over time.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Of course looking at any subset doesn't give us the full picture, but looking at the equivalent for last year (2008 releases through mid-October), the numbers in the top 10 seem pretty similar, though with the names shuffled around.rpmurphy said:
Code:
Nintendo Wii 4.29 M
Nintendo DS 2.68 M
Capcom PSP 2.50 M
Pokémon DS 2.32 M
Square Enix DS 1.28 M
Namco Bandai DS 1.11 M
Namco Bandai PS2 1.01 M
Namco Bandai PSP 0.81 M
Konami PS3 0.71 M
Koei PS2 0.66 MSadist said:
I'm not sure. It was late when I originally posted, so I may not have been speaking at all logically.
I guess what I want to say is that the PS3's sales are considered only so important because of how badly the Wii is doing. However, I'd argue that in reality the PS3 will mostly remain a rather irrelevant presence in regards to the Wii, and so in terms of actually affecting the Wii I don't think it's entirely significant whether or not it sells 30k a week or 10k a week, or even if it actually sells more than thw Wii. At this moment in time the systems are so different that I find it hard to believe that a consumer is actively choosing one over the other.
I suppose the crux of the argument is that Nintendo should simply focus on why the Wii isn't selling, and perhaps not why the PS3 is. And in coming to a conclusion on the matter, Nintendo might decide why the two are the same. Nevertheless, what's so shocking about why the PS3 is selling so well isn't that the PS3 is selling so well, but that the Wii is selling so badly.
I don't want to try and pretend that there isn't a problem here. Of course, there very much is. I just don't think that one of them is the shrinking potential of the Wii. Perhaps what I want to say is that the situation in Japan is more one of a bump in the road rather than a shorter race track.
... or something. I'm not sure I'm making much sense myself, really. Bah, humbug.
(I think the fact that we're essentially agreeing, and the issue is more of semantics, may explain why we might be talking at cross roads.)
TunaLover said:
I think you're overly optimistic about the potential for these titles.
Cheez-It said:
Or it couldn't. That is the problem with Nintendo, they think the brand will sell everything (the Wii brand, the Mario brand), and it won't. Who knows if the local multiplayer will be that big? It looks like a DS game, it plays like a DS game... Why would people buy it, if they had this same experience on the DS for less? I mean, people already don't value 2D gaming as 3D games, and NSMB doesn't try to create an unique style - like every game that had console and portable versions before, like Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi, or Mario Bros and Mario Land, and so on. Of course it'll sell like hotcakes, but we can't be 100% sure it'll surpass Mario Kart.
One thing is certain: it isn't creating a healthy environment for the Wii, which is the Wii's biggest issue, and the reason why it is dropping on sales that fast.
I want to believe that, but it is not more than wishful thinking.the thoroughbred said:
I mean, a smart company has a constant flow of quality games in different genres. If ALL those studios were doing high budget titles in different genres, they'd come out all too close, close enough to hinder sales of each other, to shy even more third party support, and to make expenses in development and marketing not worth it. They ARE resting on their laurels, doing games as slowly as they can and not doing as enough as they should with their salaries. Except for Retro, I can't see any of them making breakthrough achievements with their games.
Exactly. It was working... until they lowered the standards so much that AC CF and Wii Music failed. Before, they had all those games that started development for/with the launch of the Wii that kept a healthy environment. When those games stopped coming, Nintendo only had those two games to show, and that broke their legs. Still, they insisted on their strategy - but now delaying some games even more to up quality, like on WSR - and reaped what they sowed now, when sales can't reach last year's levels even with a price drop. Thankfully, because that'll make them put more effort into their games, although that could mean even more delays (like how they delayed almost all the games announced for 09 in Japan at last year's October Conference)...Bizzyb said:
Razien said:
Because of he fact that the Wii's success is very much (partly) built on that aspect of gaming?
In many ways this is a good thing.
Because their opinion may be different from yours?
NSMB itself begs to differ.
Again, in many ways this is a good thing.
I think you're simplifying the situation somewhat.
Not necessarily.
I certainly like your logic.
And you know this... how, exactly?
leroy hacker
Member
Razien said:
How many of those games have been released so far? Sin and Punishment, Punchout, Another Code, Endless Ocean 2 and Takt of Magic I believe were all revealed at that conference. I can't recall the complete list of other games from then, but I believe Dynamic Slash, Cosmic Walker, Spawn Smasher and Line Attack Heroes are unreleased games revealed at that conference. So I believe four out of nine titles were delayed, and only one has been released in the US. What a disappointment.