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J.R.R. Tolkien's 'The Silmarillion' - A Read-Through By TolkienGAF (Join Us!)

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Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
It's interesting how much of Fëanor's frustrations stem from the loss of his mother and a phonological change adopted by his stepmother that he strongly opposed.

The change was: þ > s

The þ as in the th in thing. Which was especially important to Feanor as his mother's Amilessë (mother-name) was Þerindë.

To quote Fëanor:

"We speak as is right, and as King Finwë himself did before he was led astray. We are his heirs by right and the elder house. Let them sá-sí, if they can speak no better".

More division, this time because of language.
 

Fathead

Member
Where do I need to get to be caught up. Just got my copy unpacked from my move a couple of days ago, and ive been reading to try to catch up.
 

Windam

Scaley member
The entire album is silmarillion references. It's a concept album

Into the Storm:
Morgoth and Ungoliant steal the silmarils and begin fighting over who gets to keep them

Nightfall:
Feanor and the Valar debate over the next course of action after Morgoth destroyed the two trees. The song ends with Feanor swearing his oath with his sons, then leading the bulk of the Noldor out of Valinor

The Curse of Feanor:
Feanor arrives on middle earth after the kinslaying

Blood Tears
Maedhros is captured and Fingon comes to rescue him by cutting off his hand

Mirror Mirror
Turgon is told to build Gondolin

Noldor (Dead Winter Reigns):
Fingolfin laments the Noldor. References to the Kinslaying, the crossing of Helcaraxe, the doom of Mandos

Time Stands Still
The duel between Fingolfin and Morgoth

Thorn:
The story of Maeglin and his temptation by Morgoth

The Eldar:
The death of Finrod in Sauron's dungeon

When Sorrow Sang:
Beren and Luthien in the Halls of Mandos, while she performs for Mandos

A Dark Passage:
Morgoth gloating after his victory at the Fifth Battle. Specifically, he is taunting Hurin

Such a great album. Time Stands Still is probably my favourite track on the album. Perfect song to pump you up for something. A Dark Passage is also great. It is especially powerful at:

Valinor's empty now
Allied the Elves and Men
They shall be damned
 

Fathead

Member
Edmond Dantès;120464257 said:
Chapter 5 of the Quenta Silmarillion (the main narrative after the two background chapters) or thereabouts.

Thank you.


So Feanor's other name, clearly it has some meaning that Im not getting. What am I missing? Is this some sort of elvish naming convention that ive missed?
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Thank you.


So Feanor's other name, clearly it has some meaning that Im not getting. What am I missing? Is this some sort of elvish naming convention that ive missed?
Elves who had seen the Light had three names:


  • amilessë (mother name)
  • essë (father name)
  • epessë (after name)

In terms of Fëanor:


  • Curufinwë was his father name.
  • Fëanáro his mother name.

Other examples;

Finrod:


  • Ingoldo was his mother name.
  • Findaráto was his father name.
  • Felagund his after name, public name.

Galadriel:


  • Artanis was her father name.
  • Nerwen was her mother name.
  • Alatáriel her after name.

Note: Some had a Killessë, a self name.
 

BaBaRaRa

Member
Edmond Dantès;120385837 said:
It's interesting how much of Fëanor's frustrations stem from the loss of his mother and a phonological change adopted by his stepmother that he strongly opposed.

The change was: þ > s

The þ as in the th in thing. Which was especially important to Feanor as his mother's Amilessë (mother-name) was Þerindë.

To quote Fëanor:

"We speak as is right, and as King Finwë himself did before he was led astray. We are his heirs by right and the elder house. Let them sá-sí, if they can speak no better".

More division, this time because of language.

Incredible. I never really realised these rifts ran so deep.
 

ag-my001

Member
Edmond, for this additional information, could you please cite your reference when it isn't in the QS itself? I have a bunch of the 'history' books and would love to look some of it up, but I get the feeling that some people's confusion might be made worse when what they're reading in the book and seeing posted here don't match up.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Edmond, for this additional information, could you please cite your reference when it isn't in the QS itself? I have a bunch of the 'history' books and would love to look some of it up, but I get the feeling that some people's confusion might be made worse when what they're reading in the book and seeing posted here don't match up.
Yes certainly.

As far as post 502: From The Peoples of Middle-earth (Volume 12 of the History of Middle-earth series (HOME)), page 331 onwards.

Post 508: From Morgoth's Ring (Volume 10 HOME), the essay on 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar' and p339 of The Peoples of Middle-earth (Volume 12 HOME).
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Colour-rendering of the realms of Beleriand.

91snpI8.jpg
 

BaBaRaRa

Member
Very cool. The map in my book doesn't even show Angband!

Does the map show Thangorodrim?

The majority of Angband was underground, and only really revealed itself around Thangorodrim. That's my take on why it was never really specified on the maps in the books.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Does the map show Thangorodrim?

The majority of Angband was underground, and only really revealed itself around Thangorodrim. That's my take on why it was never really specified on the maps in the books.
It was essentially an underground fortress, the three peaks were but towers brought about by Melkor's activities.
 

BaBaRaRa

Member
Edmond Dantès;121256302 said:
It was essentially an underground fortress, the three peaks were but towers brought about by Melkor's activities.

Exactly, and I always understood it to be huge! So much so that the three peaks could only be used as a marker for the door, and were not indicative of its size (which is saying something).
 

Sickbean

Member
I'm gonna go off on a bit of tangent here, and ask a question that's sort of relevant to all stories with 'big bads' in them -


What exactly do the likes of Melkor/Sauron actually do all day? Just sit there looking furious? This has always bothered me more than it probably should do.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I'm gonna go off on a bit of tangent here, and ask a question that's sort of relevant to all stories with 'big bads' in them -


What exactly do the likes of Melkor/Sauron actually do all day? Just sit there looking furious? This has always bothered me more than it probably should do.
The submission of the Orcs required must energy from Melkor and Sauron; that was one thing that would have taken up their time.

In Melkor's case, the engineering of fell-beasts, experimentation on captured Children of Iluvatar, overseeing the building of war machines, tormenting Hurin (during a certain period of the First Age). Contemplation of his deeds and planning for future strikes on Elvish strongholds. Playing with his wolves.

Similar things for Sauron, but with more sorcery added into the mix. Plus, Sauron had his obsession; the One was also at the forefront of his thinking. Ever searching for it, using the means at his disposal. The Palantir too would take up some of his time.

But it must be remembered that these are immortal spirits in fleshy raiment, boredom isn't something that would be a concern to beings who predate the world they inhabit.
 

Sickbean

Member
Edmond Dantès;121433725 said:
The submission of the Orcs required must energy from Melkor and Sauron; that was one thing that would have taken up their time.

In Melkor's case, the engineering of fell-beasts, experimentation on captured Children of Iluvatar, overseeing the building of war machines, tormenting Hurin (during a certain period of the First Age). Contemplation of his deeds and planning for future strikes on Elvish strongholds. Playing with his wolves.

Similar things for Sauron, but with more sorcery added into the mix. Plus, Sauron had his obsession; the One was also at the forefront of his thinking. Ever searching for it, using the means at his disposal. The Palantir too would take up some of his time.

But it must be remembered that these are immortal spirits in fleshy raiment, boredom isn't something that would be a concern to beings who predate the world they inhabit.


Thank you for a sensible answer to a silly question.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Its not a silly question at all, in fact you can ask what ANY of the characters do all day. Tolkien sort of glosses over technological advancement in favor of artistic feats. My impression is that the eldar spend their time making intricate crafts, then singing about it. It is a bothersome trend that everyone peaks very early and then can either never match their early efforts or chooses not to. Creation of the silmarills, the first trees, the white ships, etc. Some of this is I guess the "essence" of the person being spent in the work, but I get the distinct feeling that middle-earth has always been on a downward slide of entropy from day one. I wonder if a bit of the fall from grace and expulsion from Eden didn't figure into this. Melkor seems to be a persistent eroding force, he attacks the perfect song of Eru from the beginning and has been corroding it steadily ever since.
 

Fathead

Member
Its not a silly question at all, in fact you can ask what ANY of the characters do all day. Tolkien sort of glosses over technological advancement in favor of artistic feats. My impression is that the eldar spend their time making intricate crafts, then singing about it. It is a bothersome trend that everyone peaks very early and then can either never match their early efforts or chooses not to. Creation of the silmarills, the first trees, the white ships, etc. Some of this is I guess the "essence" of the person being spent in the work, but I get the distinct feeling that middle-earth has always been on a downward slide of entropy from day one. I wonder if a bit of the fall from grace and expulsion from Eden didn't figure into this. Melkor seems to be a persistent eroding force, he attacks the perfect song of Eru from the beginning and has been corroding it steadily ever since.

Isn't this fading foreshadowed in the Music? Everything starts out beautifully, but the loss of harmony and the confusion of who to follow inevitably weakens the Music.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Isn't this fading foreshadowed in the Music? Everything starts out beautifully, but the loss of harmony and the confusion of who to follow inevitably weakens the Music.
Yes, Arda is fundamentally flawed from its very beginning, with the the discord of Melkor all pervading, hence Tolkien's description of Arda as Morgoth's Ring.
 
One of the things that bother me was the weakening of Melkor.

With the Valar around, Melkor never really had a chance. His only hope seemed to be the Valar simply not caring about what happens outside of their lands.

And this was true for a while but even Melkor should have known if the time ever comes, his ass is grass.

I suppose you can easily chalk it upto arrogance but that's just an easy out. Atleast Sauron had a proper chance. Although I suppose, had he become big enough, the Valar would come take care of him also.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
One of the things that bother me was the weakening of Melkor.

With the Valar around, Melkor never really had a chance. His only hope seemed to be the Valar simply not caring about what happens outside of their lands.

And this was true for a while but even Melkor should have known if the time ever comes, his ass is grass.

I suppose you can easily chalk it upto arrogance but that's just an easy out. Atleast Sauron had a proper chance. Although I suppose, had he become big enough, the Valar would come take care of him also.
Indeed, and but for Manwe's vacillating nature, Melkor would have been dealt with far earlier than his eventual doom.
 
Manwe is the most frustrating thing about these stories.

But without him being the way he is, there is no story.

It would go something like this:

Melkor weakens himself to ensure his essence is always spread throughout the world
Starts being Melkor
Manwe hears about it, runs over, deals with it quickly and goes home

It's basically what happened the first time around when they took Melkor prisoner.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Absolutely. I get the why, it still frustrates me.


"I'm sure Melkor is totally cool this time ladies and brehs."
They were essentially brothers, coeval in the mind of Iluvatar. Manwe believed that Melkor could be rehabilitated. This belief was eventually shattered, but even then he delayed and mused rather than acting, which caused much ruin to Middle-earth and its peoples.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Kinda think the Manwe think makes sense in the whole merciful hero way. Like, Bilbo and Frodo spare Gollum, for instance, and I just assumed that for Melkor it was the same way. Like, Manwe looked at him, knew that once upon a time Melkor was a much greater being, and couldn't bring himself to destroy him for that reason.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Kinda think the Manwe think makes sense in the whole merciful hero way. Like, Bilbo and Frodo spare Gollum, for instance, and I just assumed that for Melkor it was the same way. Like, Manwe looked at him, knew that once upon a time Melkor was a much greater being, and couldn't bring himself to destroy him for that reason.
The best Manwe and co could have done is to fatally wound the Dark Lord raiment,
his spirit as potent as it was, could only be banished into the Void
.

And Tolkien prophesied, that Melkor would recover in the Void to his full potency and thus the final war would take place.
But this was superseded in latter writings stating that there was no such end and latter writings tend to take precedence amongst the scholarly community.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
I wonder if the Valar, being so pure, simply COULDN'T understand Melkor's evil intentions on a fundamental level, Thus they persistently give him the benefit of the doubt because they can't fathom doing anything else.

And we see others make a final redemptive action (obviously Gollum is the best example) where taking pity on someone and their having remorse for their actions can ultimately produce a good.

Plus there is a strong sense of "fair play" with "the good guys", kinda like comics and cartoons where the good guys always back off at the last minute because to finally kill their opponent would be to sink to their level.

I go back and forth on how "realistic" I think the characters act. One the one hand they often seem to act according to a deterministic plot, but on the other hand history is full of leaders who fight each other one day and form alliances the next, so I guess it is natural.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I wonder if the Valar, being so pure, simply COULDN'T understand Melkor's evil intentions on a fundamental level, Thus they persistently give him the benefit of the doubt because they can't fathom doing anything else.

And we see others make a final redemptive action (obviously Gollum is the best example) where taking pity on someone and their having remorse for their actions can ultimately produce a good.

Plus there is a strong sense of "fair play" with "the good guys", kinda like comics and cartoons where the good guys always back off at the last minute because to finally kill their opponent would be to sink to their level.

I go back and forth on how "realistic" I think the characters act. One the one hand they often seem to act according to a deterministic plot, but on the other hand history is full of leaders who fight each other one day and form alliances the next, so I guess it is natural.
That's certainly true. Much of the characteristics of the Valar can be explained by their subservience to Eru; essentially as demiurgic beings their wills were ultimately influenced greatly by Eru.

When looking at other myths, taking Norse and Ancients Egyptian as primary examples; why was Loki allowed to cause such havoc? Why was Apep not permanently destroyed by the defenders of Ra while traversing the underworld? Much of it is down to the fundamental beliefs of the people who conjured these myths.

It's much the same with Tolkien, his inner most thoughts manifesting in his myth story. Tolkien was a pessimist, he believed in the Fall and that eventually all diminishes and comes to ruin... but that there could be hope for recovery however small, however distant.

His 'eucatastrophe' was his hope.
 

Fathead

Member
I swear the text itself actually says that Manwe doesnt understand Melkor because Manwe doesnt have evil in his heart, or something like that.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I swear the text itself actually says that Manwe doesnt understand Melkor because Manwe doesnt have evil in his heart, or something like that.
Yes, during Melkor's phase of repentance, he deceived Manwe with his words and deeds, but others not so much. Tulkas never believed in Melkor's rehabilitation, but he restrained himself when in close proximity to Melkor out of respect to his Lord. Tulkas if not shackled to such an extent would have 'killed' Melkor again and again because of his hatred for the rebellious one.
 

jwj442

Member
So Evangeline Lilly has read The Silmarillion, maybe other first/second age writings too. She knows her stuff when it comes to Tolkien and females:
And I think even if he, if you are familiar with Tolkien’s appendices and his work outside of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings trilogy, you see in those books that he wrote a lot more for women. And already the sign of the times changing as he was writing those books in the 1960′s and ’70s. So now suddenly women are actually taking on the world’s stage. So it’s kind of cool if you look into, if you project or you’re looking at Tauriel and you are looking for references, Tolkien references, you need to look in all of his other books to see how he wrote for women. And I think that Peter Jackson being an expert on Tolkien took all that into account.
She is of course right - the First and Second Ages have a lot of prominent female characters, more than the Third Age. Such as Melian, Varda, Luthien, Erendis, etc. Besides the minor correction that many of these characters had been written before the 60s (at least in their earliest version), it's pretty impressive that she knows this. Actually, while Jackson has probably read it, I don't think I've ever heard him speak about it directly, though that might be because of licensing.

I have to say that besides the cheesy healing scene, I liked her character in Desolation of Smaug a lot more than I expected. She feels more like an authentic Tolkien elf than Bloom's Legolas.

As for this readthrough, I had been meaning to reread The Silmarillion again anyway. Maybe I will get to it soon.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
So Evangeline Lilly has read The Silmarillion, maybe other first/second age writings too. She knows her stuff when it comes to Tolkien and females:

She is of course right - the First and Second Ages have a lot of prominent female characters, more than the Third Age. Such as Melian, Varda, Luthien, Erendis, etc. Besides the minor correction that many of these characters had been written before the 60s (at least in their earliest version), it's pretty impressive that she knows this. Actually, while Jackson has probably read it, I don't think I've ever heard him speak about it directly, though that might be because of licensing.

I have to say that besides the cheesy healing scene, I liked her character in Desolation of Smaug a lot more than I expected. She feels more like an authentic Tolkien elf than Bloom's Legolas.

As for this readthrough, I had been meaning to reread The Silmarillion again anyway. Maybe I will get to it soon.
Yes she does know her stuff. More so than people give her credit for.

Peter has talked about The Silmarillion, but only so far as rights issues and adaptations.

It's Philippa Boyens who is the most vocal about The Silmarillion. It would be a dream for her to be able to bring it to the big screen.
 

Loxley

Member
kUQv0sr.jpg


Synopsis (via the Silmarillion Writers Guild)

Chapter 5 - Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Edalië

The Noldor and the Vanyar arrive at the shores of Middle-earth, where they first meet Ulmo and develop their love for the sea. It is also Ulmo who devices the means to transport them: He uproots and island and draws it across the sea to Aman with the Eldar upon it. Unfortunately, though, the Teleri had dawdled too long in eastern Beleriand, searching for Elwë. When they heard that Finwë and Ingwë had departed, many continued to the shore, where they befriended Ossë and Uinen and learned sea-music and sea-lore and fell in love with the sea. Others of the Teleri, however, remained in eastern Beleriand, searching still for Elwë. To the grief of Ossë, Ulmo returned to bear the Teleri over the sea, also on an island. Some of the Teleri were persuaded to remain behind: the Falathrim, of whom Círdan was lord. Those left searching for Elwë also wished to travel to Valinor, but Ulmo and Olwë would not wait, and they were left behind as the Eglath—the Forsaken People—and when Elwë awoke from his long trance, they settled in the forests as his people. Ossë, meanwhile, followed Olwë’s people upon their island, and he begged Ulmo to stay their passage. Having believed from the beginning that the Elves should remain in Middle-earth and also knowing the hearts of the Teleri and their love of the sea, Ulmo heeded the request, and anchored the island off the shores of Valinor, much to the displeasure of the other Valar and the dismay of Finwë. This island came to be known as Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle. The Valar shaped the land of Valinor for the Noldor and Vanyar, breaking a gap in the Pelóri mountains to form the Calacirya, the Pass of Light, through which the Light of the Trees reached the shores of Aman and the western shore of Tol Eressëa. They raised a green hill called Túna, where the city of Tirion was built and the Vanyar and Noldor dwelt together in fellowship.

The Vanyar were the beloved of Manwë and Varda, but Aulë and his people loved most the Noldor, who loved speech and craft. It was the Noldor—the House of Finwë—who first found gemstones and learned to shape them, giving them freely to others, enriching Valinor. Finwë’s house is summarized: his three sons, Fëanor, Fingolfin, and Finarfin, and their children. Fëanor was known for his skill with craft and words; Fingolfin was strongest and most valiant; and Finarfin was wisest and known also for bringing together the House of Finwë and the House of Olwë through his marriage to Olwë’s daughter Eärwen. After many ages upon Tol Eressëa, the Teleri began to feel conflicted by their love of the sea and their love of the light that came through Calacirya, and at last, desired the light of Valinor and to see their kinsmen again enough to leave Tol Eressëa. Ossë was grieved but obeyed their wishes and taught them the art of shipbuilding, giving them also a gift of swans by which their ships were drawn over the sea. In Valinor, they dwelt on the shores where they could meet their friends in Valmar and Tirion, if they desired, but also walk in the waves, beneath the stars. They scattered the beach with gemstones and found the first pearls; in their harbor were their famous ships, shaped as swans.

The Vanyar, also, felt their hearts change and desired the full light of Valinor and moved to dwell with Manwë or in the forests surrounding Valinor. The kings, then, were Finwë in Tirion, Olwë in Alqualondë, and Ingwë of the Vanyar was King of all the Eldar. The Noldor shared a love of knowledge and exploration, not least of all Fëanor son of Finwë, and he and his seven sons explored the lands of Aman and were often guests of Aulë and Celegorm—third son of Fëanor—of Oromë.

Chapter 6 - Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor

The three races of Elves were now in Valinor, and Aman was its most blissful and productive. Among the illustrious achievements of this age was the invention of writing by Rúmil of Tirion, of the Noldor. Also at this time, Fëanor—the firstborn son of Noldorin king Finwë—was born in Tirion. While bearing her son, Fëanor’s mother Miriel put forth too much of her spirit and body into him and was consumed, too weary to go on living. She was sent to the Gardens of Lórien, where her spirit left her body and fled to Mandos, and Finwë alone of all the Elves in Aman knew grief and went to Lórien no more, giving his love instead to Fëanor, who grew swiftly and quickly became skilled in craft and lore, devising the first gemstones and improving the alphabet of Rúmil.

While still young, Fëanor married Nerdanel, daughter of Mahtan. From Mahtan, Fëanor learned how to make things from metal and stone. Nerdanel alone could restrain the temper of her fiery husband, although he eventually became too much even for her. Nerdanel and Fëanor had seven sons. Around this time, Finwë decided to remarry and wed Indis of the Vanyar. Finwë and Indis had two sons—Fingolfin and Finarfin—and their marriage was not pleasing to Fëanor. Fëanor lived apart from them and busied himself with craft. It also came to pass that Melkor’s term of imprisonment ended, and he was brought before the Valar, where he swore to aid in healing the hurts he had caused. Manwë granted him pardon then, and he gave his counsel to the Valar and the Eldar. Soon, he was allowed to wander Aman at will, and though several of the Valar saw through to the evil that Manwë could not perceive, they did not rebel. The Noldor, however, loved the new skills that Melkor could teach them, and through them, Melkor spread the lies that would be their undoing. Fëanor, however, always hated and mistrusted Melkor, and though Melkor would later claim to have played a role in Fëanor’s genius, this was in fact a lie, and Fëanor always worked alone.

Chapter 7 - Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

When Fëanor came to his fullest creative power, he created the Silmarils, three jewels filled with the Light of the Two Trees. The Silmarils were hallowed by Varda so that no one mortal, evil, or with unclean hands could touch them. The people of Aman were delighted with the Silmarils, and Fëanor often displayed them at festivals. When Melkor saw them, his desire to sunder the Valar and the Elves increased, and he began to spread rumors and lies among the Elves. While at first, little came of his labor, with time, the Elves began to whisper of what he told them, chief of which was that the Valar had brought the Eldar to Aman out of jealousy, fearing that the Elves would flourish beyond their control. The Valar had not yet spoken to the Elves of mortal Men, and this Melkor also used to his devices, claiming that the Valar preferred that the weaker mortal race should inherit Middle-earth.

The Noldor paid heed to these words, and a hunger for his own kingdom grew especially in Fëanor. While Fëanor despised Melkor, Melkor’s words reached him nonetheless, and he began to jealously guard the Silmarils. Seeing the strife between Fëanor and the children of Indis, Melkor also spread lies that Fingolfin sought to supplant Fëanor’s rights as the eldest son; to Fingolfin and Finarfin, he told that Fëanor would drive them from their homes in Tirion. Not long after, the Noldor began crafting weapons and speaking openly of rebellion, especially Fëanor. Fingolfin sought the counsel of his father Finwë concerning Fëanor, and Fëanor threatened him with a sword on the palace stairs, earning himself twelve years of banishment from Tirion, a decree laid down by the Valar. At this time, the Valar also uncovered Melkor as the root of the rumors, but Melkor had fled and could not be found, although a shadow came over the land that told them that he remained in Aman. Fëanor went to Formenos to serve the terms of his banishment, taking his sons and his father Finwë with him. Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in his father’s stead. Melkor then came to Fëanor in Formenos and offered to help him form his own kingdom, adding that the Silmarils were at risk in any realm of the Valar. Fëanor saw through his fair words, though, and slammed the door in his face. Finwë, fearful of his son’s daring insolence, sent word immediately to the Valar.

Melkor fled then to Middle-earth, and the shadow was removed from Valinor, but not knowing what evil may still come, the people of Aman looked with fear to the future.

Chapter 8 - Of the Darkening of Valinor

Hearing that Melkor had fled and suspecting that he had gone to his strongholds in the north of Middle-earth, Oromë and Tulkas pursued him, but he had turned back and gone—unknown to the Valar—into the south of Aman, to the land of Avathar. There lived Ungoliant the spider, in endless hunger, and she devoured all light that she could find and spun forth webs of darkness between a cleft in the mountains. Melkor persuaded her into his service by offering her anything she demanded, a promise he did not intend to keep. Amid a cloak of darkness, Melkor and Ungoliant surveyed the realm of Valinor, which was in a time of festival honoring the gathering of fruits. Manwë had planned the festival, intending to heal the feud between the princes of the Noldor. Fëanor was commanded to come, but Finwë and Fëanor's sons remained in Formenos, along with the Silmarils. Before the throne of Manwë, Fëanor met Fingolfin, who pardoned the threat Fëanor had made in Tirion and promised to follow him.

At the same time, the Trees mingled, and Ungoliant and Melkor came forth to Ezellohar, where the Trees stood. Melkor wounded each Tree with his spear and their sap poured forth, and Ungoliant drank them until they were dried and withered, swelling to a size that even Melkor feared and putting out clouds of darkness. Darkness fell then on Valinor. The darkness—being made from the destruction of light—was malicious and all sight, sound, and will were lost. Manwë knew that it was the work of Melkor and Oromë and Tulkas set forth in pursuit of him, but they were lost amid the blindness and confusion of the darkness put forth by Ungoliant.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Important Names and Terms in Chapters 5/6/7/8 of Quenta Silmarillion

Avathar - A dark strip of land at the feet of the southern Pelóri mountain range in Aman.
Beleriand - The region of north-western Middle-earth during the First Age. Originally, the name belonged only to the area around the Bay of Balar, but in time the name was applied to the entire land. The root of the word, Beler/Balar, is believed to refer to the Maia Ossë, who often dwelt at the shores of Balar.
Calacirya - Also called the Pass of Light, was a narrow pass that led through the chain of mountains known as the Pelóri mountain range north of Taniquetil.
Círdan - Also known as Nowë and Círdan the Shipwright, was a Telerin elf (of which he was one of the wisest princes), a great mariner and shipwright in Middle-earth. Círdan was the lord of the Falas and then of the Balar during much of the First Age, one of the wisest and perhaps the mightiest of the Moriquendi. He was the bearer of the Great Ring Narya, which he in turn gave to Gandalf.
The Eglath - The Forsaken People
Ezellohar - A green mound of grass near the western gate of Valmar where Yavanna used to sit and sing songs of power.
The Falathrim - The elves living on coasts of the western Beleriand during the First Age of the sun on Middle-earth. They are called the 'Coast People', 'Elves of the Falas' or 'Elves of the Havens'.
Fëanor - an Elda of the Ñoldor, and one of the Elven kindred that departed Valinor in the land of Aman, where they had lived with the angelic spirits known as the Valar. He is renowned as a craftsman, gem-smith, and warrior, the maker of the Silmarils and inventor of the Tengwar script. He was also the creator of the seven Palantíri. He was considered the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore, but also the proudest and most self-willed.
Fingolfin - The second High King of the Ñoldor in Beleriand and eldest son of Finwë. Fingolfin was said to be the strongest, most steadfast, and most valiant of Finwë's sons.
Finarfin - Said to be the fairest and wisest of Finwë's sons. Like all of Finwë's sons, Finarfin founded his own house. Uniquely among the Ñoldor he and his descendants all had golden hair inherited from his mother, so his house was sometimes called "The Golden House of Finarfin".
Formenos - The stronghold city of the House of Fëanor in the hills north of Valinor in Aman.
Indis - A Vanyar Elf of Valinor. She is closely related to Ingwë, the King of the Vanyar and High King of the Elves, for her mother is Ingwë's sister.[2] Indis was known for her great beauty and was thus referred to as Indis the Fair.
Ingwë - King of the Vanyar and the High King of the Elves.
Mahtan - A renowned Ñoldorin metallurgist of Aman and the father of Nerdanel, the wife of Fëanor. Mahtan had a beard, which was unusual for an elf especially one as young as he.
Nerdanel - The daughter of the Ñoldorin smith Mahtan and the wife of Fëanor. Nerdanel was a sculptor of great note and is said to have made statues so lifelike that people thought them to be the real thing.
Rúmil of Tirion - A border-guard of Lórien and guarded the border of the country to the west together with his brothers Haldir and Orophin.
The Silmarils - Gems crafted by Fëanor from some essence of the Two Trees of Valinor; Laurelin and Telperion, before the First Age. They were among the most prized of all the wonders crafted by the elves and were coveted by many. It was said that the fate of Arda was woven about the Silmarils.
Tirion - The city of the Ñoldor in Valinor in Aman. It was here that Finwë ruled from, and where his sons Fëanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin lived.
Tol Eressëa - A large island, whence the Mallorn trees come. Its name may be translated from Elvish as the Lonely Island, for it lay originally in the middle of the Belegaer (Great Sea), far from any other landmasses.
Ungoliant - A primordial being in the shape of a gigantic spider. She was initially an ally of Melkor in Aman, and for a short time in Middle-earth as well. She is the mother of Shelob, and therefore the oldest, and first, of the Spiders of Mirkwood.

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Potential Discussion Topics

- Character motivations
- Tolkien's intent as a whole, and for individual characters
- Character connections and relationships to others
- Inspirations for characters and locations
- Comparisons with the Lost Tales (and why Tolkien may have dropped certain elements and character)

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Artistic Interpretations

*to be added*
 
This is one of my favorite sections of the book. So much beautiful imagery painted here by Tolkien. The elven cities of Eldamar must have been something to behold.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I find it interesting that the Vanyar are often criticized for not involving themselves in the troubles of Middle-earth, instead cosying up to the Valar, while the Noldor take an active role in dealing with actions of Melkor.
 
That is their problem though. The Valar were more than willing to intervene, but the Noldor leadership, particularly house of Feanor, were jerks about how the whole situation went down. If Feanor had chosen to cooperate instead of
leading the Noldor into exile, slaughtering many of the Teleri as they left
, then the whole situation would have probably ended much more amiably for everyone.

While on the topic of the Noldor, It is a detail that is often overlooked when discussing this section, but the Noldor didn't rebel just because of the death of their king, and the theft of the silmarils. Morgoth spent a considerable amount of time corrupting the Noldor even before they left. They had come to believe they were prisoners of the Valar. Furthermore, Morgoth also planted the seeds of ambition in the hearts of the elves. Many of the Noldor wished to become kings/lords of their own realms, back east.
 

hunnies28

Member
Finally some activity. I'll be away this week but will try to keep reading. I got more books today so now it seems I will reread the rings trilogy aswell.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
This is one of the sections that really has me wondering just what "tech level" Tolkien imagined for his world. One of the things they invent is WRITING! Artistically all of ME seems to be shown as a sort of high renaissance period with intricate plate mail and architecture (and Tolkien describes such things in LOTR IIRC), but I get a real bronze age vibe from most of the silmarillion with maybe some iron age stuff towards the end.

It is also one of the most baffling parts where there seems to be no security or watchfulness in Valinor, when Melkor can bring a big ass spider of darkness right to the heart of the land! Though I guess the trees were outside the city gates so perhaps that explains it. Still, hubris comes to mind.
 

ag-my001

Member
The population centers of Valinor has often confused me. In their early days the elves all have bunches of children, and they're immortal, so numbers have grown quickly. However, we only learn of about four total settlements: Tirion, Formenos, Alqualonde, and on the mountain. Just how crowded were these cities?

As for the tech level, that just goes to the theme of loss and diminishing. All the famous swords in LotR are first age products. There is also an implication of the technology being more in tune with nature. Finally, I don't have my copy with me, but the first age lasted a really long time. Plenty long enough for individuals to make advancements when you don't have to continually replace or re-teach the knowledge of the older generations.
 

Niahak

Member
This is one of the sections that really has me wondering just what "tech level" Tolkien imagined for his world. One of the things they invent is WRITING! Artistically all of ME seems to be shown as a sort of high renaissance period with intricate plate mail and architecture (and Tolkien describes such things in LOTR IIRC), but I get a real bronze age vibe from most of the silmarillion with maybe some iron age stuff towards the end.

I'm pretty sure LOTR is ~1000 AD armor wise, although it does describe intricate architecture. It's been awhile since I re-read LOTR but the most intricate armor described is typically chain mail. I do remember reading that a lot of book-only devotees were unhappy with the movie's depiction of people with more advanced armors like plate. I don't remember much discussion of armor or other tech details in the Sil (not reading along, but following the discussion. It's really filling a lot of gaps in my understanding).
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
The population centers of Valinor has often confused me. In their early days the elves all have bunches of children, and they're immortal, so numbers have grown quickly. However, we only learn of about four total settlements: Tirion, Formenos, Alqualonde, and on the mountain. Just how crowded were these cities?

As for the tech level, that just goes to the theme of loss and diminishing. All the famous swords in LotR are first age products. There is also an implication of the technology being more in tune with nature. Finally, I don't have my copy with me, but the first age lasted a really long time. Plenty long enough for individuals to make advancements when you don't have to continually replace or re-teach the knowledge of the older generations.
Tolkien did state that Elves, though more numerous in number than Dwarves, were still far less in number than Men. Feanor having seven sons was a rarity, rather than the norm amongst Elves who generally had one maybe two offspring on average. The cities themselves were quite vast even in Valinor, larger still when the Noldoli returned to Middle-earth.

On the theme of diminution, what's surprising is how the Numenoreans bucked this trend. They reached a level beyond that even of the Elves with what were seemingly regarded as 'engines'. What type of engines isn't stated. But they were a seafaring race and their fleet and army was unrivalled in all the Ages of Arda. A unique technological blip it would seem. Or the case of two different narratives, developed during different periods of Tolkien's life.

But of course, the Numenor story was Tolkien's Atlantis story inspired by his recurring dreams about the Atlantis myth. Though, funningly enough the word Atalantë is actually purely a coincidence, a word invented by Tolkien independently of the existing word. The master word-builder at work once again.

The Quenta and the Akallabêth are different beasts though, inspired by completely different primary myths, something Christopher has remarked on.

Why did Tolkien do it? Another fall from grace, a microcosm if you will. A rise and fall, within a larger overarching decline spanning Ages.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
See, another piece of art showing renaissance armor :)

Does Tolkien ever elaborate on the origin of Ungoliant? Was she a corruption of Melkor (some unnamed maiar) or some other lesser creature?

I find the passage about Morgoth being ensnared and crying out, creating the Lammoth, very interesting. That type of mythological explanation for a natural area/phenomenon rings very true to me. Lots of myths have fantastical explanations for natural things and the Silmarillion is no exception (though, I suppose, that area could still echo with his voice rather than it just being the wind ;).
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
See, another piece of art showing renaissance armor :)

Does Tolkien ever elaborate on the origin of Ungoliant? Was she a corruption of Melkor (some unnamed maiar) or some other lesser creature?

I find the passage about Morgoth being ensnared and crying out, creating the Lammoth, very interesting. That type of mythological explanation for a natural area/phenomenon rings very true to me. Lots of myths have fantastical explanations for natural things and the Silmarillion is no exception (though, I suppose, that area could still echo with his voice rather than it just being the wind ;).
Tolkien didn't expound upon on Ungoliant's origins instead leaving her in even more mystery than Tom (who he at least discussed in his correspondence with his fans); but many have speculated and the latest theory put forward at recent a Tolkien Society event is as follows:

Ungoliant was a byproduct of the initial weaving of Arda when Melkor's discord directly opposed Eru's will. Melkor's theme took precedence the second time out of the three occasions hence Ungoliant was created (the very antithesis to light; the darkness that consumes light). Then Eru rebounded and his wrath was known to all the Ainu and his chords triumphed over Melkor's discord hence Tom was created (the antithesis of the dark; the light, incorruptible).
 
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