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[hunnies28]

I re read everything up until Thingol and Melian chapter.

I got a question regarding dragons, I'll spoil it just in case.

Spoiler

As I understand, dragons were created by Morgoth /Sauron. And it's been told that Morgoth could not create life (I take it that they probably corrupted some beast and came up with dragons) only make mockeries of it. However, how do we get from that to something like Smaug? He is sentient enough and has intelligence of it's own.

Hopefully I'm not going to far ahead.

 

[Altazor]

Essentially, the beginning of time in Arda, the creation of the dwarves, the awakening of the elves, Melkor is thrown in prison and union between Thingol the elf and Melian the maia; the first and only union of its kind.

I'm fascinated by those kinds of unions in Tolkien's Legendarium You've got Thingol and Melian, (spoilers for future Silmarillion chapters)

Spoiler

Beren and Lúthien, Tuor and Idril

, Aragorn and Arwen - all with some parallels. I imagine they're all subconciously (and conciously) tied to his own love story with Edith, or am I just making stuff up?

 

[ag-my001]

Well, considering the names on their gravestones, I'd say you weren't too far off.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I re read everything up until Thingol and Melian chapter.

I got a question regarding dragons, I'll spoil it just in case.

Spoiler

As I understand, dragons were created by Morgoth /Sauron. And it's been told that Morgoth could not create life (I take it that they probably corrupted some beast and came up with dragons) only make mockeries of it. However, how do we get from that to something like Smaug? He is sentient enough and has intelligence of it's own.

Hopefully I'm not going to far ahead.

Dragons are one the great mysteries of Tolkien's mythos and need some explaining.

We have to look back again to the Lost Tales for his first writings on dragons:

Spoiler

"Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only. A great cunning and wisdom have they, so that it has been long said amongst Men that whosoever might taste the heart of a dragon would know all tongues of Gods or Men, of birds or beasts, and his ears would catch whispers of the Valar or of Melko such as never had he heard before. Few have there been that ever achieved a deed of such prowess as the slaying of a drake, nor might any even of such doughty ones taste their blood and live, for it is as a poison of fires that slays all save the most godlike in strength. Howso that may be, even as their lord these foul beasts love lies and lust after gold and precious things with a great fierceness of desire, albeit they may not use nor enjoy them. Thus was it that this lókë (for so do the Eldar name the worms of Melko) suffered the Orcs to slay whom they would and to gather whom they listed into a very great and very sorrowful throng of women, maids, and little children, but all the mighty treasure that they had brought from the rocky halls and heaped glistering in the sun before the doors he coveted for himself and forbade them set finger on it, and they durst not withstand him, nor could they have done so an they would."

"Many are the dragons that Melko has loosed upon the world and some are more mighty than others. Now the least mighty - yet were they very great beside the men of those days - are cold as is the nature of snakes and serpents, and of them a many having wings go with the uttermost noise and speed; but the mightier are hot and very heavy and slow-going, and some belch flame, and fire flickereth beneath their scales, and the lust and greed and cunning evil of these is the greatest of all creatures: and such was the Foalókë whose burning there set all the places of his habitation in waste and desolation. Already greater far had this worm waxen than in the days of the onslaught upon the Rodothlim, and greater too was his hoarded treasure, for Men and Elves and even Orcs he slew, or enthralled that they served him, bringing him food to slake his lust [?on] precious things, and spoils of their harryings to swell his hoard."

Later in the Lost Tales Tolkien gives another description:

Spoiler

"Now the end of this was that Melko aided by the cunning of Meglin devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin. For this Meglin's reward was to be a great captaincy among the Orcs - yet Melko purposed not in his heart to fulfil such a promise - but Tuor and Earendel should Melko burn, and Idril be given to Meglin's arms - and such promises was that evil one fain to redeem. Yet as meed of treachery did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of the Balrogs. Now these were demons with whips of flame and claws of steel by whom he tormented those of the Noldoli who durst withstand him in anything - and the Eldar have called them Malkarauki. But the rede that Meglin gave to Melko was that not all the host of the Orcs nor the Balrogs in their fierceness might by assault or siege hope ever to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win unto the plain without. Therefore he counselled Melko to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death."

"Now the years fare by, and egged by Idril Tuor keepeth ever at his secret delving; but seeing that the leaguer of spies hath grown thinner Turgon dwelleth more at ease and in less fear. Yet these years are filled by Melko in the utmost ferment of labour, and all the thrall-folk of the Noldoli must dig unceasingly for metals while Melko sitteth and deviseth fires and calleth flames and smok-es to come from the lower heats, nor doth he suffer any of the Noldoli to stray ever a foot from their places of bondage. Then on a time Melko assembled all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the Great End. Some were all of iron so cunningly linked that they might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, and these were filled in their innermost depths with the grimmest of the Orcs with scimitars and spears; others of bronze and copper were given hearts and spirits of blazing fire, and they blasted all that stood before them with the terror of their snorting or trampled whatso escaped the ardour of their breath; yet others were creatures of pure flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal, and they brought to ruin whatever fabric they came nigh, and iron and stone melted before them and became as water, and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds; and these were the most dire of all those monsters which Melko devised against Gondolin."

"And now came the Monsters across the valley and the white towers of Gondolin reddened before them; but the stoutest were in dread seeing those dragons of fire and those serpents of bronze and iron that fare already about the hill of the city; and they shot unavailing arrows at them. Then is there a cry of hope, for behold, the snakes of fire may not climb the hill for its steepness and for its glassiness, and by reason of the quenching waters that fall upon its sides; yet they lie about its feet and a vast steam arises where the streams of Amon Gwareth and the Hames of the serpents drive together. Then grew there such a heat that women became faint and men sweated to weariness beneath their mail, and all the springs of the city, save only the fountain of the king, grew hot and smoked."

Christopher Tolkien had this to say:

Spoiler

"In The Silmarillion the dragons that came against Gondolin were 'of the brood of Glaurung', which 'were become now many and terrible'; whereas in the tale the language employed suggests that some at least of the 'Monsters' were inanimate 'devices', the construction of smiths in the forges of Angband. But even the 'things of iron' that 'opened about their middles' to disgorge bands of Orcs are called 'ruthless beasts', and Gothmog 'bade' them 'pile themselves'; those made of bronze or copper 'were given hearts and spirits of blazing fire'; while the 'fire-drake' that Tuor hewed screamed and lashed with its tail."

Very interesting; origins differ it seems and of course Balrogs riding dragons into battle evokes great imaginary.

The father of all dragons may have been a corrupted Maia who took dragon form, others were corruptions of Melkor engineered by him with the use of his great power, which he was wasting away on such things. The descendants of the great dragons of the First Age retained the sentience of their earlier kin.

And of course Tolkien was using dragons of lore as his inspiration; the dragon of Beowulf and Fafnir of the Volsunga Saga to name just two.

Tolkien had this to say of dragons in general in his famous lecture on Beowulf.

"As for the dragon: as far as we know anything about these old poets, we know this: the prince of the heroes of the North, supremely memorable – hems nafn mun uÞÞi meðan veröldin stendr - was a dragon-slayer. And his most renowned deed, from which in Norse he derived his title Fáfnisbani, was the slaying of the prince of legendary worms. Although there is plainly considerable difference between the later Norse and the ancient English form of the story alluded to in Beowulf, already there it had these two primary features: the dragon, and the slaying of him as the chief deed of the greatest of heroes – he wæs wreccena wide mærost. A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men's imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. Even to-day (despite the critics) you may find men not ignorant of tragic legend and history, who have heard of heroes and indeed seen them, who yet have been caught by the fascination of the worm. More than one poem in recent years (since Beowulf escaped somewhat from the dominion of the students of origins to the students of poetry) has been inspired by the dragon of Beowulf, but none that I know of by Ingeld son of Froda."

 

[hunnies28]

Wow. It took me awhile to get all that. Thank you for such a quick and rich response Edmond.

I actually had one of the Book of Lost Tales but I was way to young for that one. I could never finish it and lost it years ago.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Wow. It took me awhile to get all that. Thank you for such a quick and rich response Edmond.

I actually had one of the Book of Lost Tales but I was way to young for that one. I could never finish it and lost it years ago.

Thanks. I would recommend the Book of Lost Tales, but only after reading The Silmarillion.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Some interesting tidbits on Aulë, the Dwarves and Elves and Men:

• Aule was sometimes called Návatar and the dwarves Aulëonnar, 'the children of Aulë '.
  
• The flesh of Dwarves is reported to have been far slower to decay or become corrupted than that of Men. Elvish bodies robbed of their spirit quickly disintegrated and vanished.
  
• The Elves came to know so much about the Dwarves (though at a time when the vigour of both races was declining) due to the strange and unique friendship which arose between Gimli and Legolas. Most of the references to Dwarvish history in Elvish records are marked with 'so said Legolas'.
  
• According to Dwarvish legends their begetter Aulë, had made their language for them and had taught it to the Seven Fathers before they were laid to sleep until the time for their awakening should come. After their awakening this language changed in time and divergently in the mansions that were far-sundered. But the change was so slow and the divergence so small that even in the Third age converse between all Dwarves in their own tongue was easy. As the Dwarves said, the change in Khuzdul as compared with the tongue of the Elves, and still more with those of Men, was 'like the weathering of hard rock compared with melting of snow'.
  
• Dwarves multiplied slowly; but Men in prosperity and peace more swiftly than even the Elves.
  
• No Dwarf would ever mount a horse willingly, nor did any ever harbour animals, not even dogs.
  
• The names that Dwarves are known by are 'outer names', their real 'inner names' known only to themselves are never revealed to other races.
  
• Legends refer to the Ages of Awakening and the arsing of the Speaking Peoples: first the Elves, second the Dwarves (as they claimed), and third Men. Unlike Elves and Men the Dwarves appear in legends to have arisen in the North of Middle-earth.
  
• In later times, when the Dwarves' own Khuzdul had become only a learned language, and the Dwarves had adopted the Common Speech or a local language of Men, they naturally used their 'outer names' for all colloquial purposes.
  
• Khuzdul differed widely structurally and grammatically from all other languages of the West, though it had some features in common with Adûnaic, the ancient native language of Númenor. This gave rise to the theory that in the unrecorded past some of the languages of Men (including the language of the dominant element in the Atani from which Adûnaic was derived) had been influence by Khuzdul.
  
• The Dwarves were not skilled linguists, in most matters they were unadaptable and spoke with a marked 'dwarvish' accent. Also they had never invented any form of alphabetic writing although it is said they had a complex pictographic or ideographic writing or carving of their own. But this they kept resolutely secret.
  
• The well known Dwarvish runes are actually of Daeron the elf. The Dwarves had quickly recognized the usefulness of the Elvish systems, when they at last became sufficiently friendly with any of the Eldar to learn them. This occurred mainly in the close association of Eregion and Moria in the Second age.

 

[Necrovex]

Essentially, the beginning of time in Arda, the creation of the dwarves, the awakening of the elves, Melkor is thrown in prison and union between Thingol the elf and Melian the maia; the first and only union of its kind.

It was a joke.

But thanks for the mini-summary too!

 

[hunnies28]

I always have wondered if the friendship of Gimli and Legolas would have been possible, had Gimli taken part in Bilbo's quest.


No Dwarf would ever mount a horse willingly, nor did any ever harbour animals, not even dogs.
The names that Dwarves are known by are 'outer names', their real 'inner names' known only to themselves are never revealed to other races.


Well I had no idea about this two facts. Except the part of the horses.

 

[SeventhSon]

The principle dwarves featured or referred to in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings all had Mannish names after the fashion of the region around Dale and Esgaroth.

Only a few dwarvish words were known to outsiders, and Galadriel speaking them reverently is partially responsible for winning Gimil's esteem.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I always have wondered if the friendship of Gimli and Legolas would have been possible, had Gimli taken part in Bilbo's quest.


No Dwarf would ever mount a horse willingly, nor did any ever harbour animals, not even dogs.
The names that Dwarves are known by are 'outer names', their real 'inner names' known only to themselves are never revealed to other races.


Well I had no idea about this two facts. Except the part of the horses.

It's something Tolkien expounded upon in later writings that Christopher omitted from The Silmarillion.

 

[Loxley]

Synopsis

Chapter 1 - Of the Beginning of Days

Following the entrance of the Ainur as the Valar, Arda was still lifeless and had no distinct geographical features. The initial shape of Arda, chosen by the Valar, was of a symmetrical continent lit by two lamps: Illuin and Ormal; one in the continent's north, and one in the south. However the lamps were destroyed by the vicious Melkor. The Spring of Arda ended and the world was again darkened, and the lamps' fall spoiled the perfect symmetry of Arda's surface. Two main continents were created that are of concern to the story: Aman on the far West, and Middle-earth to the East, over the Great Ocean. Following this, Melkor hid himself from the Valar in an enormous fortress, Utumno. He also surrounded himself with horrible beasts, many of them Maiar in the form of fell animals, known as Balrogs. Balrogs were to remain his most faithful servants and soldiers ever after. The Valar then made for themselves a home at the utmost West, upon Aman

Chapter 2 - Of Aulë and Yavanna

Aulë who is the great smith of the Valar, wishes to create life whom he can teach his craft to. His patience waiting for the Elves to awake gets the best of him and Aulë secretly decides to create the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves. Ilúvatar, also known as Eru (the One), soon learns of Aulë's actions and Aulë is forced to destroy his creations. However Ilúvatar now does not want to see the Dwarves destroyed, so he grants them life of their own. They must however rest until the Awakening of the Elves who Eru has chosen to be the Firstborn of the Children of Ilúvatar. Yavanna, the spouse of Aulë, soon learns of her husband's deeds, she fears the Dwarves, or even the Elves and Men will harm her plants and trees which she loves. She goes to Manwë to seek protection. Manwë has a vision of the Song of Creation in which Eru tells him not to fear as spirits will also awake to protect what Yavanna holds dear.

Chapter 3 - Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor tells of several instrumental events in the Legendarium. It begins with the Valar at war with Melkor, who has sown evil in Middle-Earth and built a great fortress Utumno. It speaks of the Valar primarily, as they ready Arda for the coming of the Firstborn, the Elves. Tulkas makes war on Melkor while Varda prepares the world by placing the stars in the sky to guide the Elves in the darkness of Middle Earth. All is prepared for the coming of the Elves. The next major event is Melkor's captivity. Melkor has built up great strength in Utumno, and created Orcs in mockery of the Elves. This was said to be the most evil deed of Melkor. The War on Melkor is presumably won. Utumno is sacked, though Tolkien notes there are deeper and mighty vaults in the fortress that were unchecked, and so evil continued. Additionally, one of the Maia who fell with Melkor, his lieutenant Sauron, was not found and thus escaped. But Melkor was found cowering in the depths of Utumno, and Aulë wrought chains to keep him in captivity.

The final major event of this chapter is the coming of the Elves, Firstborn of Ilúvatar. This actually takes place while the War for Sake of the Elves is happening, and so is simultaneous rather than final. It is said, however, that the Elves heard a great shaking and were worried but did not take part in the battle. The first elves are described to have greater stature than their descendants, but are just as fair. They marvel at nature, the stars, etc. This chapter not only describes the original thoughts of the elves and their surroundings, but also the Great Journey and the sundering of the Elves. The Valar send servants to call them to Aman. The Elves embark on the journey across Middle Earth, save some who refuse, and are further called dark Elves, or the Avari. The Elves' journey, and some fall off along the way, who are called the Teleri. They are sundered in many groups, but they eventually reach Beleriand by the sea. Here more Teleri stay, for their love of the ocean. Finally those who journey across the sea to Aman are called the Eldar. Some of the Teleri, too, reach Aman, and are guided by Swan boats. From here on the Elves are sundered into groups, and these divisions would prove important later.

Chapter 4 - Of Thingol and Melian

The chapter is the shortest of all. It describes first the nature and habits of Melian, a Maia of Irmo. We are told that during the Great Journey the Teleri lingered in East Beleriand while the Noldor were further to the west. Elwë, the leader of the Teleri while visiting his friend Finwë of the Noldor, was lost in the forest of Nan Elmoth and saw Melian dancing. He remained immobile for the following ages. His followers could not find him so his leadership was taken by Olwë.

The chapter concludes with brief references of the future of Elu and Melian, Doriath and Lúthien which will be expanded later in the following chapters...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Important Names and Terms in Chapters 1/2/3/4 of Quenta Silmarillion

~ Illuin and Ormal - The Two Lamps of the Valar, made by Aulë, filled by Varda and hallowed by Manwë in ancient days to bring light to the world. They were destroyed by Melkor, and where Iluin fell it created the inland Sea of Helcar. Illuin was set in the northern part of Middle-earth, and Ormal, the south.
~ Aman (The Blessed Realm, The Undying Lands) - A continent that lay to the west of Middle-earth, across the great ocean Belegaer. It was the home of the Valar, and three kindreds of Elves: the Vanyar, some of the Noldor, and some of the Teleri.
~ Valinor - The area of Aman inhabited by the Valar and the Elves, Valmar is its central city.
~ Middle-earth - A large continent of Arda, situated between Aman to the West (across Belegaer), and the Land of the Sun to the East (across the East Sea). It is here that many of the epic tales of Arda were played out, for it was there where the Children of Ilúvatar, Elves, Dwarves and Men came into being; and in the Westlands of Middle-earth they bitterly fought the Dark Lords.
~ Utumno - A fortress of Melkor in the far north of Middle-earth. It was the first and greatest of Melkor's citadels, delved in the earliest days. Utumno was built by Melkor after his first expulsion from Arda. The Valar had by this time created the Two Lamps, and Utumno was built around Valian Year 3400 under the Iron Mountains, where the light of Illuin was very dim. Here were gathered all the evil powers of the World under the Lord of Darkness. Their numbers were in legions and Melkor created many new and dreadful forms.
~ The Dwarves (Khazâd) - Beings of short stature, often friendly with Hobbits although long suspicious of Elves. They were typically blacksmiths and stoneworkers by profession, unrivaled in some of their arts even by the Elves. While there were several tribes (Houses) of the Dwarves, the most prominent was that of the Longbeards.
~ Orcs - Footsoldiers of evil, bred by Melkor in mockery of the Elves, sometime during the Great Darkness. It is unclear when exactly Orcs were created, but it certainly happened before the War for Sake of the Elves in his stronghold of Utumno. If the Orcs were at this time a capable fighting force against the host of Valinor is not known. But at least some of them survived this war, probably hidden in the deep vaults of Angband and multiplied, waiting for their master.
~ War for Sake of the Elves - Fought by the Valar, under orders from Manwë, the Elder King, against Melkor to liberate the newly-awakened Elves from his influence. It culminated in the near-apocalyptic Siege of Utumno, where Melkor was captured, enchained, and imprisoned for three ages of the world.
~ The Great Journey - The journey that the Elves known as the Eldar took from Cuiviénen, the place of their awakening, to Valinor.
~ The Avari - A branch of Elves that refused to make the Great Journey.
~ The Teleri - The third of the Elf clans who took the Great Journey. They were the ancestors of the Valinorean Teleri (became known as the Falmari), and the Sindar, Laiquendi, and Nandor of Middle-earth.
~ Thingol/Elwë - The King of Doriath and High King of the Sindar. Known as Elwë during the first years of the Eldar, he was the older brother of Olwë and Elmo. He was also a good friend of Finwë, High King of the Noldor. His hair was grey and he was the tallest of all Elves and Men.
~ Finwë - The first King of the Noldor, who led his Elven people on the journey from Middle-earth to Valinor in the blessed realm of Aman.
~ Olwë - King of the Teleri in Aman, also known as the Falmari. He was younger brother of Elwë, King of the Sindar. He may have had a second brother, Elmo.

Not Quite Important Yet But Keep Them in Mind

~ Doriath - The land of the Sindar. It was called the Fenced Land, for its queen, Melian, put a girdle of enchantment about it, so that none could enter without King Thingol's permission.
~ Lúthien - The only daughter of King Thingol of Doriath and Melian the Maia. She was said to be the fairest maiden to have ever lived.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Potential Discussion Topics

- Character motivations
- Tolkien's intent as a whole, and for individual characters
- Character connections and relationships to others
- Inspirations for characters and locations
- Comparisons with the Lost Tales (and why Tolkien may have dropped certain elements and character)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Artistic Interpretations

'Map of Aman' - by amegusa

'The Shores of Valinor' - by Ted Nasmith

'Illuin: Lamp of the Valar' - by Ted Nasmith

'Orcs' - by Alan Lee

 

[GalacticaN7]

I have to say Tulkas is probably my favorite of the Valar. He doesn't afraid of anything.

It's fun to imagine what the world looked like as the Valar decided once and for all to wage war with Melkor at Utumno. The imagery of the elves being shielded from the fight, but in the distance could see skies of fire and knowing that some major stuff was going down is a powerful thought. What I would give to see a movie representation of the Battle of the Powers, along with many of the future wars. But I won't get ahead of myself.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Brilliant sumnation Loxley.

 

[tryagainlater]

Love the summary Loxley. I'm intrigued by these spirits that were awakened to protect Yavanna's creations. Is there anymore written on what these spirits are? They're not Ents, are they?

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Love the summary Loxley. I'm intrigued by these spirits that were awakened to protect Yavanna's creations. Is there anymore written on what these spirits are? They're not Ents, are they?

Yes.

Think of them as the children of Yavanna. Spirits inherent in them, awoken and taught to speak by the Elves and to look over the natural world in Yavanna's absence.

Other nature spirits too, in varying raiments.

 

[GalacticaN7]

Yes.

Think of them as the children of Yavanna. Spirits inherent in them, awoken and taught to speak by the Elves and to look over the natural world in Yavanna's absence.

Other nature spirits too, in varying raiments.

If I recall correctly, the spirits were created as a counter-balance to Aule secretly designing the dwarves.

Were the eagles part of that equation? You have the Ents who shepard the forests, and the Eagles who keep a watchful eye over the land, but part of me thinks the eagles are more of a Manwe thing.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

If I recall correctly, the spirits were created as a counter-balance to Aule secretly designing the dwarves.

Were the eagles part of that equation? You have the Ents who shepard the forests, and the Eagles who keep a watchful eye over the land, but part of me thinks the eagles are more of a Manwe thing.

The eagles were of Manwe, a motif Tolkien borrowed from Norse mythos. Odin was synonymous with eagles and Manwe was essentially the good side of Odin; Melkor the negative aspects of the great Norse deity.

 

[Necrovex]

Do we ever see any racial (clan) tension between the Noldor, Eldars, or Teleri?

Also, are the Noldors the Avari, or are they simply known as the grey-elves? I am trying to get all of these elvish branches down in my mind.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Do we ever see any racial (clan) tension between the Noldor, Eldars, or Teleri?

Also, are the Noldors the Avari, or are they simply known as the grey-elves? I am trying to get all of these elvish branches down in my mind.

There is tension between the different groups of Elves.

Avari is simply a term to describe those who refused the summons to Valinor. Dark Elves simply means those who didn't witness the Light, it's not in reference to physical features. In Quenya (Elvish Latin) Dark Elfs are 'Moriquendi'.

The Noldor are a clan (the second) who witnessed the Light and mingled with the Ainur. But they themselves are lesser in order than the highest of all Elves; the Vanyar.

Generally the Vanyar are golden haired, the Noldor dark haired.

All you need remember at this stage:

The three clans = the Vanyar, the Noldor, the Teleri.

The Vanyar are lesser seen in the story, whereas the Noldor are the movers and shakers of the story. The Teleri are also significant but in different ways.

 

[Akira]

The only tension that we know of through The Silmarillion is that of the tension between Feanor and his half-brothers, who are half Vanyar through their mother. I don't think it was a clan issue though, but more of a half sibling tension. That and Feanor is a crazy dude.

We know that the Vanyar king is the High King of all Elves, but we have nothing in the books AFAIK that talks about resentment of that fact.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

The only tension that we know of through The Silmarillion is that of the tension between Feanor and his half-brothers, who are half Vanyar through their mother. I don't think it was a clan issue though, but more of a half sibling tension. That and Feanor is a crazy dude.

We know that the Vanyar king is the High King of all Elves, but we have nothing in the books AFAIK that talks about resentment of that fact.

The

Spoiler

kinslaying

for one created an everlasting tension between the Teleri and the Noldor, that tension manifesting itself later in the narrative and to pick one example

Spoiler

Eol, Aredhel and their son Maeglin.

 

[agrajag]

The

Spoiler

kinslaying

for one created an everlasting tension between the Teleri and the Noldor, that tension manifesting itself later in the narrative and to pick one example

Spoiler

Eol, Aredhel and their son Maeglin.

That is such a badass chapter, one of my favorites in the whole book! The favorite being the story of Beren and Luthien of course.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

That is such a badass chapter, one of my favorites in the whole book! The favorite being the story of Beren and Luthien of course.

Yes indeed. Eol, is an interesting character, the 'Dark Elf' which was a personal appellation. Living in dark shadow, loving the night and the twilight under the stars and liking the Dwarves more than any of the Elvenfolk of old.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Speaking of Dark Elves let us look at one of the main inspirations for Tolkien's Elves.

Snorri Sturluson's (author or compiler of the Prose Edda) Elves.

First, let us see what Snorri said of Elves:

"There is one place that is called Alfheim. There live the folk called light-elves, but the dark-elves live down in the ground, and they are unlike them in appearance, and even more unlike them in nature. Light-elves are fairer than the sun to look at, but the dark-elves are blacker than pitch."

Elsewhere in Snorri's work it is made clear that when he says black-elves he means 'dwarves'. So what does this mean? It is clear that while Snorri identifies four groups, the light-elves, dark-elves, black-elves and dwarves, there are actually only two; the last three are merely different names for the same group. The first group are very much like angels comparable to the Ainur, while the other group has been made to seem quite diabolic in nature, something akin to fallen angels or even Anglo-saxon elves.

What did Tolkien the scholar take from this? To be continued...

 

[agrajag]

Yes indeed. Eol, is an interesting character, the 'Dark Elf' which was a personal appellation. Living in dark shadow, loving the night and the twilight under the stars and liking the Dwarves more than any of the Elvenfolk of old.

You gotta have a certain sympathy for Eol. In his eyes the Noldor were unwelcome intruders who came and laid claim to lands that weren't theirs. And on top of that, he is supposed to bend his knee for a Noldor king? Not to mention, he probably knew that

Spoiler

the Noldor are kinslayers

, I don't remember if that's explicitly mentioned.

 

[jason10mm]

You gotta have a certain sympathy for Eol. In his eyes the Noldor were unwelcome intruders who came and laid claim to lands that weren't theirs. And on top of that, he is supposed to bend his knee for a Noldor king?

To be fair though, then the ACTUAL beings who created the earth SAY that guy is the king, it adds a certain air of legitimacy to the claim of "divine rule"

Taking Eru and the Valar for "truth" (i.e., they actually exist and are not just part of an elven mythos passed on to humans) changes a lot about I view the dissenting characters. Often times they are just unhappy with the order of things (why can't I be the boss, why won't that girl like me, I want that shiny thing) but when you start fighting the established order of gods, it makes you a special kind of evil! OF course, Eru set it up like that....

 

[agrajag]

?

The three heads of the three elven races were the original chieftains, they weren't anointed by Eru or anything afaik. And for what it's worth, Eol is Thingols kinsman, he owes no allegiance to

Spoiler

kinslaying

Noldor.

 

[Haly]

What did Tolkien the scholar take from this? To be continued...

Ooooh, intriguing. I knew about the Edda's "dark elves", but I didn't know how Tolkien made his.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Before the continuation of the Elvish conundrum. This analysis of Dwarves (taken from my OT for The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey) may provide some useful insights for this read through.

In their earlier appearances in Tolkien’s tales, the dwarves had always been portrayed as an evil people, allies of goblins, mercenaries of Morgoth, pillagers of one of the great elven kingdoms. Thus their characterization in The Hobbit is totally at variance with what is said and shown of them in the old legends. And the break is both sudden and complete: no intermediate stages prepared the way. For them to be treated sympathetically as heroes of the new story is nothing short of amazing: no less surprising than if a company of goblin wolf-riders had ridden up to Bag-End seeking a really first-class burglar. It is difficult to pinpoint exactly where the dwarves entered the mythology, but it was sometime during the Lost Tales period (1917-1920). They played a major role in one of the tales, ‘The Nauglafring: The Necklace of the Dwarves’ and are mentioned in passing in three others; ‘The Tale of Tinuviel’, ‘Turambar and the Foaloke’ and the unfinished ‘Gilfanon’s Tale’. Throughout these early stories they are viewed exclusively from an unflattering elvish perspective, one best conveyed by an entry in the Gnomish Lexicon, where the Goldogrin/Gnomish word nauglafel is glossed as ‘dwarf-natured’, i.e.mean, avaricious - (Parma Eldalamberon XI. 59).

Spoiler

The Tale of Turambar’s portrayal of Mim the Fatherless, the first dwarf of note in the Legendarium, establishes Tolkien’s dwarves as guardians of vast treasure hoards as well as the originators of inimical curses.

The image of ‘an old misshapen dwarf who sat ever on the pile of gold singing black songs of enchantment to himself’ and who ‘by many dark spells, bind it to himself’, along with the dying curse he lays upon the treasure, comes directly from the Icelandic legends which formed such a large part of Tolkien’s professional repertoire. In particular, the old story of the famous hoard of the Nibelungs that plays a crucial part in works as different as the Volsunga Saga, Snorri’s Prose Edda, the Nibelungenlied, and Wagner’s Ring Cycle provides the motif of a treasure stolen from the dwarves which later brings disaster upon all those who seek to claim it, even the descendants and kin of the original owners.

Another work that Tolkien was much interested in for the glimpses it provided of ancient lore, the Heidreks Saga, features an episode wherein a hero captures the dwarves Dvalin and Durin and forces them to forge him a magical sword; they do so but before departing lay a curse upon it so that once drawn it can never be resheathed until it has taken a human life. This saga is also the source of one of Gollum’s riddles and one of the sources for Dwalin’s and Durin’s names.

Spoiler

Unedifying though it may be, ‘The Nauglafring’ does offer us the first extended view of Tolkien’s dwarves, one so much at variance with the race as developed in The Hobbit that Tolkien eventually obliged to create a new name for the old race, ‘the petty dwarves’, to distinguish the people of Mim from Durin’s Folk and their peers, the kindred of the Seven Houses of the Dwarves and the ancestors of Thorin Oakenshield.

The mysteries surrounding the dwarves’ origins expressed in ‘The Nauglafring’ (They are strange race and none know surely whence they be; and they serve not Melko nor Manwe and reck not for Elf or Man, and some say that they had not heard of Iluvatar, or hearing disbelieve), endured to the time of The Hobbit’s composition and beyond. The Silmarillion’s account of Aule’s creation of the dwarves did not enter the mythology until around the time of The Hobbit’s publication and thus postdate the book’s composition by roughly half a decade.
​

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Seems as if The Silmarillion has claimed yet more victims.

 

[Loxley]

Seems as if The Silmarillion has claimed yet more victims.

Seems so.

Sorry I haven't been posting a whole lot lately, I'm in the middle of an abrupt move to Philadelphia so that's been occupying most of my time : / The move will be finished by next Monday so I'll be back to my normal posting habits, in the mean time I'll try to post some of my thoughts on the first four chapters tonight.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Works been particularly busy for me otherwise I'd be posting more too

 

[jason10mm]

Can we discuss the Halls of Mandos for a bit? It is expounded on a bit later in the book but what exactly is it supposed to be? In my head it is basically like a Cylon resurrection ship in that an elf can die, hang out in the Halls (chatting to other dead elves, maybe the living?) and eventually get reborn (or reincarnated?) back into a physical body. Seems like an odd ability that isn't utilized much (you'd think the elves would be more aggressive if they knew they had a respawn option) and it seems to cheapen some events that we will get to soon as there shouldn't be any lasting consequences to death for an elf.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Can we discuss the Halls of Mandos for a bit? It is expounded on a bit later in the book but what exactly is it supposed to be? In my head it is basically like a Cylon resurrection ship in that an elf can die, hang out in the Halls (chatting to other dead elves, maybe the living?) and eventually get reborn (or reincarnated?) back into a physical body. Seems like an odd ability that isn't utilized much (you'd think the elves would be more aggressive if they knew they had a respawn option) and it seems to cheapen some events that we will get to soon as there shouldn't be any lasting consequences to death for an elf.

Purgatorio.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Can we discuss the Halls of Mandos for a bit? It is expounded on a bit later in the book but what exactly is it supposed to be? In my head it is basically like a Cylon resurrection ship in that an elf can die, hang out in the Halls (chatting to other dead elves, maybe the living?) and eventually get reborn (or reincarnated?) back into a physical body. Seems like an odd ability that isn't utilized much (you'd think the elves would be more aggressive if they knew they had a respawn option) and it seems to cheapen some events that we will get to soon as there shouldn't be any lasting consequences to death for an elf.

Purgatorio.

That and Valhalla.

 

[SeventhSon]

Can we discuss the Halls of Mandos for a bit? It is expounded on a bit later in the book but what exactly is it supposed to be? In my head it is basically like a Cylon resurrection ship in that an elf can die, hang out in the Halls (chatting to other dead elves, maybe the living?) and eventually get reborn (or reincarnated?) back into a physical body. Seems like an odd ability that isn't utilized much (you'd think the elves would be more aggressive if they knew they had a respawn option) and it seems to cheapen some events that we will get to soon as there shouldn't be any lasting consequences to death for an elf.

Arda will not last forever, elves are bound to the life of the world, and are not actually immortal.

 

[Sickbean]

So is this intended to be read as literal or metaphor?

Quite a lot of the early 'formation of the earth' stuff seems like it's using the war between the Valar and Melkor as a metaphor for the early chaos as the planet was formed, but then these are Gods that have physical form and interact with humans and elves.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

So is this intended to be read as literal or metaphor?

Quite a lot of the early 'formation of the earth' stuff seems like it's using the war between the Valar and Melkor as a metaphor for the early chaos as the planet was formed, but then these are Gods that have physical form and interact with humans and elves.

It's an origin story, a tradition, as understood by the race of Men as told to them by the Elves who themselves were absent during the creation and terraforming of the primordial world. It's to be taken as literally as Genesis or Atum for example:

Atum said thus, "I had union with my hand, and I embraced my shadow in a love embrace; I poured seed into my own mouth and I sent forth from myself issue in the form of the Gods Shu and Tefnut.",

 

[hunnies28]

I've been busy this past weeks but I'm a few chapters ahead. Still loving all the discussion here.


That artwork of the Lamp is really close to what I imagined it to look like.

Edit: Wow, I just browsed through all of his work. I love it! I kinda feel a bit sad for finding about it just now.

 

[jason10mm]

?

The three heads of the three elven races were the original chieftains, they weren't anointed by Eru or anything afaik. And for what it's worth, Eol is Thingols kinsman, he owes no allegiance to Noldor.

Well, towards the end of chapter 3 (page 49 on my kindle version) it says Orome chose "ambassadors" to go to Valinor, who later became kings. Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe. This leads me to believe there is some selection and "blessing off" process for who gets to rule the Quendi (maybe they elect their leaders?), though I suppose it only really applies to the Eldar and not the rest that never went to Valinor.

 

[agrajag]

Well, towards the end of chapter 3 (page 49 on my kindle version) it says Orome chose "ambassadors" to go to Valinor, who later became kings. Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe. This leads me to believe there is some selection and "blessing off" process for who gets to rule the Quendi (maybe they elect their leaders?), though I suppose it only really applies to the Eldar and not the rest that never went to Valinor.

Either way, Eol is of the Teleri and Thingol is his liege, he doesn't have to answer to Noldor lords.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Well, towards the end of chapter 3 (page 49 on my kindle version) it says Orome chose "ambassadors" to go to Valinor, who later became kings. Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe. This leads me to believe there is some selection and "blessing off" process for who gets to rule the Quendi (maybe they elect their leaders?), though I suppose it only really applies to the Eldar and not the rest that never went to Valinor.

It stands to reason that they were chosen as ambassadors because they would be in the best position to represent the needs, wants and desires of their respective peoples.

But it must be noted that they were not the three original 'leaders' of the Elves. The clan divisions were a result of the First-born, the Second-born and the Third-born, the Three Fathers of the Elves, known as Imin, Tata and Enel.

Their clans:

• Minyar (Imin) = Vanyar
• Tatyar (Tata) = half of which (and others later) became the Noldor
• Nelyar (Enel) = a majority of which became Teleri

What happened to the Three Fathers is left a mystery by Tolkien, some have postulated that they are actually Ingwe, Finwe and Olwe/Elwe, but no, evidence is lacking. And why they never became Kings of their respective clans, Tolkien never expounded upon.

 

[jason10mm]

Is there really any description of the elven "government". Seems like there is either a natural quality that predisposes an elf to "leadership" (whatever that really means outside of war) or there is a hereditary link, which may be related to the natural qualities because Tolkien is a firm believer in the apple not falling far from the tree. I've always assumed the elves were so pure and enlightened that they cane to some sort of unanimous consensus for decision making and elections, but upon this reread they were much more fractured and contentious, even amongst tight knit groups.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Is there really any description of the elven "government". Seems like there is either a natural quality that predisposes an elf to "leadership" (whatever that really means outside of war) or there is a hereditary link, which may be related to the natural qualities because Tolkien is a firm believer in the apple not falling far from the tree. I've always assumed the elves were so pure and enlightened that they cane to some sort of unanimous consensus for decision making and elections, but upon this reread they were much more fractured and contentious, even amongst tight knit groups.

Governance is not something Tolkien expounded upon in any great detail. Those who lead and thus rule are those who tend to take initiative or in some circumstances those who have seen the Light of Aman as opposed to those who haven't (Thingol and the Silvan Elves comes to mind).

What Tolkien did do was to detail customs relating to marriage, sexuality, gender roles, naming conventions and so forth. The most famous of these is the debate of the Valar in regards to the marriage of Finwe and Indis after the death of Miriel, the first wife of Finwe.

 

[CorvoSol]

So I finished it, but at the point we're at here in the thread I think one of the things that most confused me was that the Teleri were counted among both the Light Elves and the Elves who stayed, hence Grey Elves. I think I really got lost around the time Blue Elves became a thing.

What I find interesting, though, is that for all that Thingol loves Melian, he does a terrible job of listening to her council, and much hardship and grief could be spared him and his people if he had been more willing to heed the words of his wife.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

So I finished it, but at the point we're at here in the thread I think one of the things that most confused me was that the Teleri were counted among both the Light Elves and the Elves who stayed, hence Grey Elves. I think I really got lost around the time Blue Elves became a thing.

What I find interesting, though, is that for all that Thingol loves Melian, he does a terrible job of listening to her council, and much hardship and grief could be spared him and his people if he had been more willing to heed the words of his wife.

Thingol is one of a long line of obstinate beings, from Melkor to Feanor. Some like Aule and Osse listen and take heed of wise council, those that don't, blinded by pride all but fall to ruin.


The simplest way to approach the Elvish divisions is to simply deduce whether they have made the great journey and seen the Light and then split them into their respective groups. The same for those who haven't seen the Light of Aman.

 

[danmaku]

The creation of the Dwarves is an interesting story. For the first time, we see a Valar acting against Eru's will. Some of the Maiar followed Melkor in his rebellion, but here we have one of the "good guys" deciding to do whatever he wants. It's not an act that could be considered "evil" but Aule is still doing something he shouldn't, and he's aware of that because he creates the Dwarves in secret.

 

[Necrovex]

The creation of the Dwarves is an interesting story. For the first time, we see a Valar acting against Eru's will. Some of the Maiar followed Melkor in his rebellion, but here we have one of the "good guys" deciding to do whatever he wants. It's not an act that could be considered "evil" but Aule is still doing something he shouldn't, and he's aware of that because he creates the Dwarves in secret.

It wasn't the first time a Valar went against Eru's will; that honor goes to Melkor. When I saw him act against Eru, I knew any of the Valars would have that potential to do their own thing.

 

[Sickbean]

Wouldn't Eru have foreseen the creation of the Dwarves anyway?