• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Japan and the gaming industry?

Given Nintendo's success the "Japan = fail" meme is a bit of an exaggeration, it's really just Japanese devs overreacting to not being the only show in town on consoles anymore.

I think when people talk about japan they ignore Nintendo. Its like Nintendo is its own genre of games that is way outside the norm in Japan. Its the rest of japan people are crying about.

Anyways I am growing tired of big budget console games anyways.. I welcome our new handheld overlords.
 
Momo said:
Hows the doujinshi scene these days? I'd like to see more clamps and type moons emerge from there.

inb4 doujinshi = hentai
Fuck. I was going to use that joke :\
 
outunderthestars said:
Gaming changed, Japanese developers didn't.
I agree. At least gaming did in the West and the Japanese industry lost share.


louis89 said:
Does anyone think that the Japanese gaming industry could rise again?
Sure. Nintendo has never been stronger or richer, and Capcom can show the way for the rest of the japanese industry.

The HD generation seems to have caught many japanese developers on the wrong foot.
 
Japanese software development practices have to evolve as well. From everything I've read they're just moving away from coding everything from scratch every time.
 
Sipowicz said:
best selling console - japanese
best selling handheld - japanese
best selling games - japanese

japan is dead

Nintendo is special for sure. :) But outside of Nintendo the best selling games are mostly non-Japanese. Nintendo is 1 company in a massive sea of developers, they are the outlier not the norm.

I think its less "Japan is dead" and more "western developers are now on par and surpassing in many areas which means more competition, which is never good for business."
 
Of course it is dying to Kojima. He likes big budget, 10hour+ cutscenes, Hollywood blockbuster style gaming. While Japan's focus switched to hand held systems.
 
I don't know. As a fan of Japanese games and still considering JRPGs as my favorite games to play, I don't know what's happening.

But Square-Enix taking over 5 years to finish one stinking console RPG isn't helping. They even take way to long on handhelds like the PSP for example. Crisis Core took forever and Agito XIII is taking even longer.

Bamco refusing to localize the Tales series is also hurting them.

I'm still glad JRPGs remain strong on handhelds, but I think it's practically dead for consoles.

But Demon's Souls prove that JRPGs can be great, if only more JRPG developers were willing to take a risk like From Software did with Demon's Souls. I think the key was to ignore the anime culture and the Japanese market and just make a game they want to make. It's like they're afraid to try something different or take risks. They're too complacent.

Also, I think a lot of the JRPGs have too much anime influence in them and the developers always make the games with the J-market in mind first before the western market. I think that's hurting the genre's global appeal since western RPGs are becoming more popular. As for western gamers, I think a lot of people are getting tired of the same formulaic games. But Demon's Souls was well-received. I think that's the example other JRPG developers should follow. I'm talking about console JRPGs, of course.

I'm just afraid that more JRPGs won't be localized anymore in the near future. I'm glad a lot of JRPGs have been confirmed for a western release on the DS and PSP, but after that, I just don't see anymore coming over.

I guess we have to enjoy them while we can.
 
I always see people quoting game development costs as a huge reason for games costing so much or a developer closing its doors, but it always seemed like the huge dev budgets for games (with a few exceptions) was mostly a western thing. I'm sure Kojima spent more on MGS4 than, say, what tri-Ace spent on EoE/RoF or even something like Infinite Undiscovery, but most of the time I see this mentioned it's something with a lot of licensing and huge dev teams and huge chunks of the budget spent on marketing in every realm possible (AC2, Halo, etc come to mind). Didn't GTA4 cost like $100 million or some nonsense?

I think the big thing is that the industry is being driven more by "casual" gamers who buy it, play it, trade it in and then repeat the process or by people buying party games and budget compilations. I wanted to keep specific systems out of my post, but the Wii is pretty much the king of this right now since it's not only easy to develop cheaply for, but a LOT of budget games and party/compilation games get put out and sell like crazy. Wasn't it Ubisoft that uses the sales of their oft-maligned shovelware series to fund bigger projects like AC2?

Hell, D3 publishes crap (scores and scores of Simple series games), but they publish cheap, sometimes entertaining crap (EDF2017, Onechanbara) and require incredibly low sales to make a profit.
 
TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
I don't know. As a fan of Japanese games and still considering JRPGs as my favorite games to play, I don't know what's happening.

But Square-Enix taking over 5 years to finish one stinking console RPG isn't helping. They even take way to long on handhelds like the PSP for example. Crisis Core took forever and Agito XIII is taking even longer.

Bamco refusing to localize the Tales series is also hurting them.

I'm still glad JRPGs remain strong on handhelds, but I think it's practically dead for consoles.

But Demon's Souls prove that JRPGs can be great, if only more JRPG developers were willing to take a risk like From Software did with Demon's Souls. I think the key was to ignore the anime culture and the Japanese market and just make a game they want to make. It's like they're afraid to try something different or take risks. They're too complacent.

Also, I think a lot of the JRPGs have too much anime influence in them and the developers always make the games with the J-market in mind first before the western market. I think that's hurting the genre's global appeal since western RPGs are becoming more popular. As for western gamers, I think a lot of people are getting tired of the same formulaic games. But Demon's Souls was well-received. I think that's the example other JRPG developers should follow. I'm talking about console JRPGs, of course.

I'm just afraid that more JRPGs won't be localized anymore in the near future. I'm glad a lot of JRPGs have been confirmed for a western release on the DS and PSP, but after that, I just don't see anymore coming over.

I guess we have to enjoy them while we can.

Your post confuses me. You say jRPGs are your favorites but your most makes it sound like you want them to make wRPGs instead. What is the difference in a jRPG and wRPG for you?
 
And with digital distribution, Live & PSN why do they not do this:

For games they don't want to localize hire a small team to translate it the text and add subtitles. Sell the games on Live & PSN for budget. WHY the hell do they not do this?!
 
demosthenes said:
And with digital distribution, Live & PSN why do they not do this:

For games they don't want to localize hire a small team to translate it the text and add subtitles. Sell the games on Live & PSN for budget. WHY the hell do they not do this?!

Are we talking about small indie games or ones that were retail in Japan? If it's the latter, the games would be HUGE and take up way too much space.
 
demosthenes said:
Your post confuses me. You say jRPGs are your favorites but your most makes it sound like you want them to make wRPGs instead. What is the difference in a jRPG and wRPG for you?
I'm not saying they should make everything like Demon's Souls. I'm saying they should be inspired by what From Software did and try to make an effort to revive the genre.
 
cosmicblizzard said:
Are we talking about small indie games or ones that were retail in Japan? If it's the latter, they would be HUGE.

I'm not familiar w/ the localization process so maybe I'm really mis guided.

But how long would it take to translate...say the Tales games everyone wants on the PS3.

Use Tales of Vesperia as an example.

A team of 10, 20, 30 people. I can't see it taking that long but maybe I'm really stupid and have no idea what I'm tlaking about.
 
TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
I'm not saying they should make everything like Demon's Souls. I'm saying they should be inspired by what From Software did and try to make an effort to revive the genre.

Yea, but while jRPG doesn't equal anime, they share many similarities, to the point that many have used anime for cutscenes.
 
TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
I'm not saying they should make everything like Demon's Souls. I'm saying they should be inspired by what From Software did and try to make an effort to revive the genre.

But that's not reviving the genre, that's making a game in a different genre.
 
hosannainexcelsis said:
07th Expansion!

....is effing awesome.

I bought the DVD compilation of Episode 1-4 of Umineko no Naku Koro Ni a while back. During Anime Expo I bought the import of episode 5-6 of Umineko. The music is so freaking amazing, the storytelling is great, how they move from one genre to another so seamlessly is wonderful.

As mentioned before, Umineko has some of the best music you will hear in a Dojinshi game. It has many amazing songs that never made it to the bastardized studio deen anime verison:
Happiness of Marionette
Mirage Coordinator
Wingless
Mortal Stampede

Don't get me started on the amazing pieces of music that was added for Episode 5: End of the Golden Witch and Episode 6: Dawn of the Golden Witch.
Final Answer
Bread of Life
Erika's Theme

<3 07th Expansion
 
The world has moved on.

gunslinger-tower.jpg
 
Stumpokapow said:
so what jrpgs did you like this gen and what jrpgs did you like last gen
This gen:
Final Fantasy XIII
Resonance of Fate
Valkryia Chronicles
Lost Odyssey
White Knight Chronicles
Magna Carta 2-KRPG whatever
Blue Dragon


Previous Gen:
Final Fantasy X
Final Fantasy XII
Persona 3
Persona 4
Digital Devil Saga
SMT3
Tales of The Abyss

Its about equal I guess. Though I think I've played all the way through more jrpgs this gen then last gen. Though, you can say that's probably because there is factually less jrpg's this gen and more time can be spent on just 1 game. Regardless the idea that console jrpgs are dead is annoying. I've played what I consider to be lots of jrpgs and had fun with them. I played a lot of PS2 rpgs and most felt pretty unremarkable imo(Shadow Hearts, Xenosaga, Wild Arms, Kingdom Hearts, ect ect) Though, while its my favorite genre I don't just play them. I guess if jrpgs are all you play then maybe this gen sucks.
 
I'd play a standard turn based jRPG with western aesthetics and writing. Valkyria Chronicles gameplay in Warhammer40k universe, sign me up. FFXIII gameplay with tolkienesque story, I'm down for it.
 
moe happened.

in all seriousness though, it seems the biggest difference is that Western games matured, targeting the 18-34 audience, while Japan's still making games targeted at kids_ AND teenagers_, with some notable exceptions.

that's why i am happy to hear when Japanese game companies are targeting Western audiences. Most of these games are disappointing. Companies try to copy Western play styles, when they should be trying to capture western audiences with story, setting, and characters skewed towards an older audience. One day they'll get it right.
 
It all happened because the console plebs finally, fucking finally, realised that the gaming world didn't begin and end with Japanese-developed games.
 
Jackson said:
Nintendo is special for sure. :) But outside of Nintendo the best selling games are mostly non-Japanese. Nintendo is 1 company in a massive sea of developers, they are the outlier not the norm.

I think its less "Japan is dead" and more "western developers are now on par and surpassing in many areas which means more competition, which is never good for business."

I'd have to disagree with that. Although they normally have a much better handle on the technical side of things a lot of western developers seems to have descended into a parody of themselves, with each trying to outdo the other in the grittiness of their latest shooter. It's not as if the big publishers are doing that well either. A lot of them have been losing money hand over fist

Not a knock on you guys. You guys at 5th Cell are amazing. I expect you handily outdo "powerhouses" like Take 2 and EA on the 3DS both in terms of quality and success
 
spandexmonkey said:
I'd play a standard turn based jRPG with western aesthetics and writing. Valkyria Chronicles gameplay in Warhammer40k universe, sign me up. FFXIII gameplay with tolkienesque story, I'm down for it.

242st9s.jpg
 
Sipowicz said:
I'd have to disagree with that. Although they normally have a much better handle on the technical side of things a lot of western developers seems to have descended into a parody of themselves, with each trying to outdo the other in the grittiness of their latest shooter.
That's like me saying Japanese games are nothing more than generic RPGs with more and more loli and spiky haired emo kids. It's just not true.

Woo, contradicting my previous post!
 
stuminus3 said:
It all happened because the console plebs finally, fucking finally, realised that the gaming world didn't begin and end with Japanese-developed games.

And Western devs finally realized they can make something other than sports games and copycats of popular Japanese games.

See? I can be cynical, too!
 
demosthenes said:
Can someone explain this to me?

I see random quotes from Kojima and the like about how Japan is dead and the soul of gaming is crap in Japan now.

The jRPG genre has disappeared from consoles compared to the past 2 gens.

What happened to Japan to cause this all of this? This thread will probably get lost in the GC stuff but I posted something similar in a thread and actually wanted an answer.
Well, when Japanese developers talk about this, they're usually referring to the fact that the vast majority of games by Japanese third parties don't sell well in the West anymore, and of the few franchises that still do, many are declining.

Now, obviously this is a very narrow viewpoint to take on the situation. However, since the world's gaming press tends to entirely focus on what sells on consoles in the West, it can make the Japanese third party developers who once enjoyed all the world's attention now feel irrelevant in comparison. Sure, many Japanese third parties are now more profitable than they used to be and still have commendable sales in Japan, but it's that loss of attention that really seems to kill some of their spirits.
 
Sipowicz said:
I'd have to disagree with that. Although they normally have a much better handle on the technical side of things a lot of western developers seems to have descended into a parody of themselves, with each trying to outdo the other in the grittiness of their latest shooter. It's not as if the big publishers are doing that well either. A lot of them have been losing money hand over fist
Sure. I was just going off this list real quick in terms of "best selling games":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_selling_video_games

And most of the top selling games on 360 and PS3 are western. Wii again is dominated by Nintendo, but it's not even Japanese vs Western... just Nintendo. There ARE Japanese best sellers of course.

Sipowicz said:
Not a knock on you guys. You guys at 5th Cell are amazing. I expect you handily outdo "powerhouses" like Take 2 and EA on the 3DS both in terms of quality and success
Thanks! I really appreciate the kind words. :)
 
stuminus3 said:
:lol

Look at my avatar, man.

I'll have to once I get home, I don't see a lot of avatars here at work (most free image hosting sites are blocked).

I'll just assumed I put my foot in my mouth and leave it there to bask in my stupidity.
 
louis89 said:
Why does that affect Japan more than the US or Europe though?
Gee I don't know.. I've seen plenty of Western studios go under as well. Migrating towards lower development costs seems like a no brainer to me.
 
Godzilla's repeated attacks on the island left a number of key developers, facilities, and financial backers dead, destroyed, and homeless.
 
i don't understand why a "is japanese videogame industry is dead" topic is just focused on jrpg.....

it's the only thing they are able to do ?
looking at PS2 games the answer is : no


is japanese videogame industry dead ? no

is japanese videogame industry for handhelds dead ? Absolutely not

is japanese videogame industry for home systems dead ? no, but it's in serious trouble
 
Japan is dead to me (for console gaming), excluding Nintendo, Japan has brought nothing new to the table. FFXIII was a flop, so was RE5, so was DMC4, so was NG2, so was SO4, so was Lost Planet 2, and many more. The good games are too few and far between (Bayonetta, MGS4, Street Fighter 4, Vanquish. The Last Guardian, Gran Turismo 5 and etc). Seriously only 1 proper Final Fantasy so far (and it was lame), where is Suikoden?, what happened to Onimusha, what about Kingdom Hearts 3, Persona next gen, Silent Hill (that is good and made by japanese), hell what about more new IPs (there are some but not enoough, westen devlopers came out with plenty such as Gears, Mass Effect, Assassins Creed, Uncharted, Heavy Rain, LittleBigPlanet and etc)

TGS is japans last chance to redeem themselves, I want many announcements from Japan like the old PS2 days
 
There are four main reasons that I see.

1. Their development methods are woefully outdated.

You keep seeing retarded statements from Okamoto and whoever saying things like "You can only make a Western game on a Western engine," which is... probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

The core reality is that you can't make competitive games these days without technology sharing, which is something that is apparently antithetical to Japanese development.

Historically, Japanese would tell you their games were "handcrafted." To a Western developer like myself, that means "hacked-together." They start from scratch every time, and there are no real systems to speak of, let alone reuse.

I've heard Western publishers hiring Japanese studios, and being very frustrated by this. The Japanese studios resist the engines they are given, and don't believe it will save them time and money in the longrun, which will let them make better games. Maybe after 3 games they'll figure out why it's good, maybe not...


2. Even if they had the will to, they lack the technical know-how to modernize their development methods.

The reason Japanese games were comparitively awesomer back in the day is because they have always been driven by the creative forces in their companies - designers and artists. Programmers were considered lower and mere implementors of their vision. At the time, the West had the opposite problem - putting process and programming before creativity.

Eventually Western developers figured out that fun and quality are good, and you started to see very creative-driven studios bolsterred by the West's technical- and process-driven background.

Japan, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have the technical background to catch up quickly, having not historically valued it.

I'll use a recent example...

A friend of mine is going to work at IREM. He was looking at their site, and there was a Q&A in the jobs section...

Q: I want to be a programmer. Do I need to know how to program?

A: No, as long as you have a love of programming.​

Meanwhile, in the West you have people with computer science degrees and a lot of extracurricular game-specific training applying for jobs.

This also makes me think that maybe Japanese computer science courses just aren't very good? Maybe it's because to the Japanese, all the Western-created programming languages adhere to an alien logic that is incompatible with their grammar.

I really don't know, but you'd think this problem could sort itself out with new people coming into the industry. But...


3. The Japanese game industry does not seem to be attracting new people.

The West is very much engaged with indie development now. Japan, on the other hand, is not. Not only is this fueling creativity in Western games, it's also a fantastic and productive in-road to the industry.

You don't have to look at the gaming media very hard to see this. There don't seem to be any young, ascendent Japanese producers or directors... they're all 40- or 50-something men, who have been doing this for 20 years or more. On the other hand, you see quite the opposite in the West, between indies and the big publishers alike.

My sense is that the Japanese industry is an old boys' club, and no longer taking applications. Their handling of the indie scene in Japan reminds me of the way they handle internet media - they are actively disdainful of it, because it threatens their top-down control of things.

Cave Story has been lauded for years by gamers, yet it took a Western indie company to bring it a paid platform. Likewise, how many downloadable games do you see from independent Japanese studios? They're almost all made by internal studios.


4. They don't know how to expand their audience, so they're desperately trying to retain it.

For years we've seen reports that the Japanese gaming audience is shrinking. To counter this, Japanese publishers have focused on more and more "easy-sell" games and genres.

I kind of see the Monster Hunter-ification of the Japanese games industry as being akin to the Moe-ificiation/Endless series-ification of the anime industry - focusing in on the genres that hardcore want most, to the detriment of everyone else. And eventually even the hardest-core Monster Hunter fans will stop buying those.

Western publishers are guilty of this as well, of course, but our industry is still growing so they are somewhat less risk-averse. And thanks to the indie scene, publishers can identify the success of new ideas without breaking the bank on them.
 
KAL2006 said:
TGS is japans last chance to redeem themselves, I want many announcements from Japan like the old PS2 days


that would be good, but which platform ?

360 is stille a niche
ps3 is not expanded yet enough
wii is not the best choice for 3rd parties
 
Moor-Angol said:
that would be good, but which platform ?

360 is stille a niche
ps3 is not expanded yet enough
wii is not the best choice for 3rd parties

I will be surprised if there is more than 3 devs NOT jumping on the 3DS bandwagon.

Other than that, I'm sure there's going to be some good announcements for PS3 since the Phyre engine is starting to take off. I'm fully expecting Persona 5 and maybe a few other games from Atlus.
 
I feel that Japan has always traditionally been a one console at a time country. There has always been on dominate system that everyone supports by default. But now that all systems are pretty much on equal footing to third parties, they don't know how to adapt and are caught with their pants down.
 
Moor-Angol said:
that would be good, but which platform ?

360 is stille a niche
ps3 is not expanded yet enough
wii is not the best choice for 3rd parties

well western developers seem to be able to pump out games for PS3/360 without any problems.
 
there's a few very well-thought out answers in here. Even if everything isn't spot on, there's enough that sounds reasonable (based on what everyone can see by looking at what's available on the marketplace, and what devs usually say about easter vs western development).

Sony "saved" gaming back in 1995 by bringing it to adults - but it was a time bomb for them, and now it is time to pay the piper. If they don't adapt to more Westernized ways of business, I am not sure where they will be a cycle or two from now. (Not trying to poop on Sony, I still respect them and have always wanted them to "win.") Of course this thread is trying to shy away from talking about N, but they really have it in the bag when it comes to actively engaging the rest of the market - they do their own thing. It might make them the butt of a lot of jokes and lose some mindshare and marketshare (the entire GameCube period), but they are raking in the moolah and no end in sight for the short term.

I think everyone needs to step up and put a lot more interest in fighting on the portable market down the road. PSP Go was an (almost) well-meaning travesty that shoulda been stillborn, but I still give Sony credit for doing *something weird* Obviously all eyes are on 3DS and many people have closed the book on expectations for it already, esp since E3, but I think there's a whole crazy battle yet to come from everyone. I am curious what the hell ms is thinking since they've got such a wacko track record on the whole portable front, which makes Sony's look like aces. Ms may be nailing it in the console market, but so much catching up to do with the portables.

Sorry for derailing a little, but I feel this discussion is all pretty relevant considering the original subject matter.
 
demosthenes said:
Yea, but while jRPG doesn't equal anime, they share many similarities, to the point that many have used anime for cutscenes.

I think you're putting the chicken before the egg.

Anime embodies storytelling conventions that appeal to Japanese people. So do jRPG's. The similarities arise from the fact that they're both Japanese-made forms of entertainment. The creators are drawing from the same well of culture.

tetrisgrammaton said:
moe happened.

in all seriousness though, it seems the biggest difference is that Western games matured, targeting the 18-34 audience, while Japan's still making games targeted at kids_ AND teenagers_, with some notable exceptions.

that's why i am happy to hear when Japanese game companies are targeting Western audiences. Most of these games are disappointing. Companies try to copy Western play styles, when they should be trying to capture western audiences with story, setting, and characters skewed towards an older audience. One day they'll get it right.

I find that amusing. Western games don't strike me as particularly more mature, thematically, than Japanese-developed titles. I think it's more a case of differences in culture and taste combined with this recent bizarre 'anti-weeaboo' backlash, where some people seem to reject and savage anything that smacks of anime or Japanese culture in general.
 
Top Bottom