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[etiolate]

Japan isn't losing its touch, it is just that Japan's touch is losing its marketshare. Japan devs still manage some of the best monster designs, boss designs, levels and controls. The issue is that games like GTA and the influx of PC style games into console has changed what matters. Japan doesn't really care about FPS, so thats one major genre down the crapper for them. If they did do FPS, they might likely do it differently and focus on single player. Despite the need for more quality single player FPS, this likely would bomb in the states if it didn't have the multiplayer that is the selling point of the genre.

Right now it is quantity of things that matter more so than quality. Larger worlds, maybe a bit lacking in well thought out design, but increasingly greater in scope, with more things within and more players involved.

Which is why Wii/DS suits Japan, as it forces things to be focused on elements Japan is good at.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

I think their games are more polished, less buggy, imaginative and enjoyable.

Japanese games should be less buggy. This is because the majority of Japanese games get extra testing time during the translation and localization stage. Many US Japanese games start the testing process with the finished on the store shelves product that has already gone through two testing cycles (Japanese publisher and Japanese console maker) then they go through two more when they get translated.

uhm.. yeah..

Blueblur1: yea but, MGO == beta still.

You saying that the final version of MGO *won't* have three different log ins just to see the START screen?

 

[Zilch]

And created tons of new ones. And you think I like the whoring out of Mario Party or the inability of Zelda to move on? Or that Brawl has shit online that a garage dev could do a better job at? I'm saying both sides have a lot of shit they need to fix. The West isnt some golden land of amazing ideas and the East a pit of crap

Jeez, you're overreacting a bit. Where in this thread has anyone said that the East is pouring out crap? Can't you blind JPN-defenders be rational about this?

 

[duckroll]

It's funny Yamaoka of all people would say this when he was apart of the selling the fuck out of Silent Hill. He says this when SH5 looks like shit.

Actually he said this ages ago. It's an old quote. Before SH5 went down the shitter.

 

[UncleGuito]

It's funny Yamaoka of all people would say this when he was apart of the selling the fuck out of Silent Hill. He says this when SH5 looks like shit.

LOL

Japan still makes awesome games, these are just people who themselves are completely out of touch with game making.

I piss on Yamaoka and Miyamoto's fancy boots.

I agree that they are pretty hypocritical (with the exception of Kojima): Miyamoto and Nintendo have relied on the same IP's and first party titles for every generation. Now, I'm not saying that games like Super Mario Galaxy and Mario Kart Wii are bad, but they need to desperately think of something new, yet traditional, that's actually good.

 

[HK-47]

Jeez, you're overreacting a bit. Where in this thread has anyone said that the East is pouring out crap? Can't you blind JPN-defenders be rational about this?

So than dont make idiotic generalizations. I'm not exactly a JPN lover or whatever but knowing GAF I felt someone had to be on their side

 

[radioheadrule83]

- After two generations of relative failure, Nintendo have just turned a corner and slapped the industry status-quo in the face. And they did it with a low-powered console, motion controls, personal avatars, a sports game and ipod inspired marketing aimed at casuals. They released Mario Galaxy, arguably their best game in a decade, and further mined the casual space with Wii Fit.

- Kojima's just made the best looking game of his career, he got guys who made fucking ipod ads to come in on the media side and create gorgeous fake advertising, the likes of which I've *never* seen in a game. Insanely creative, and again here's a Japanese game already getting critical acclaim

- Sony have given PS3 cell, blu-ray, media streaming, PlayTV, the awesome-considering-its-free PSN network and soon, Home, the first second-life style social networking hub for gaming.

- Bangai-O proves Treasure have still got it

- In this past few years Q Entertainment gave us Lumines and Meteos, they're giving us Rez HD and Every Extend Extra Extreme

- Grasshopper just gave us No More Heroes, they're working on Fatal Frame for Wii and Kurayami for PS3

- Those SEGA / Platinum Games projects look very interesting!

- We've got Street Fighter IV, FFXIII, Resident Evil 5 and many other massive titles yet to come from Japan. If sequelitis is the accusation levelled at Japanese publishers / developers, how are the West any better?

From what I gather: large swathes of Japan's industry do sound like they're in crisis, but it seems largely because everyone who backed PS3 is watching it lag behind Wii. They're watching a move towards casual / mobile experiences and away from whatever it was that made the sword-&-sorcery animu RPG assembly line so successful. The main publishers and developers, the trend setters, are still very much aware of what makes a good game -- and a lot of the big ones, like Capcom for example, have acknowledged that Japan has changed and are aiming to make things with the West in mind right off the bat.

Regarding the online criticisms... Yes, they make fewer online games, coincidentally they also make fewer FPS games. But if you look at something like Monster Hunter on PSP, you can't question their ability to make a compelling online title. I think Japan will really get a grip of online RPGs before long, much like Korean devs did. Squaresoft will probably explore that on PS3 and maybe even Wii.

I think the only reason anyone is questioning Japan is because companies in the West have upped their game. They definitely have. Rockstar North in scotland pump out GTA, Guitar Hero and Rock Band originated out here, Sony London were responsible for a lot of EyeToy / Singstar stuff, all the big popular FPS games of the past few years came out of the West... Steam and XBL are provided by Western companies, yes... things like that. A few Western companies coming up with profitable ideas doesn't enable us to say the Japanese industry as a whole is incapable of its past-greatness... this past few years has seen some great software come out of Japan. Not being a DirectX10 FPS doesn't really diminish the fact.

 

[dfyb]

i see some expressing what i believe to be a misunderstanding of "getting in touch" with the modern game industry. i see people citing capcom as a japanese developer who have properly adapted.

personally, i think capcom has adapted in the wrong way. japanese developers shouldn't need to worry about grabbing a global market (as in, making a game for westerners). japanese developers don't need to mimic western developers. i think in some ways, konami and namco are also guilty of this. they brainstorm about what western gamers want. they look at western games and mimic them. this isn't ideal at all.

i agree with the comments about western developers being fostered in a community where mods and user generated content is highly accepted and can foster unparalleled experimentation. japanese developers need to be given more freedom to experiment - find their own seat in this modern game industry. i don't want to see the japanese version of western next gen games -- i want to see next gen japanese games. the japanese developer industry isn't going to see this revival they want until they explore and find their own way.

edit: though i do think they need to be inspired by western developers in terms of tackling online integration into their titles.

 

[Salazar]

I seem to want Valkyria more than a whole lot of other games, so we're cool for the moment.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Wait, how the hell did THAT game...... become..... -that- game?

I wonder, and would love to know.

 

[HK-47]

I agree that they are pretty hypocritical (with the exception of Kojima): Miyamoto and Nintendo have relied on the same IP's and first party titles for every generation. Now, I'm not saying that games like Super Mario Galaxy and Mario Kart Wii are bad, but they need to desperately think of something new, yet traditional, that's actually good.

Doing the "non traditional" stuff has been pretty good to them so far but whatever, I know that doesnt count

 

[proposition]

I personally prefer Western games, on the whole, but I think they're at parity myself. It depends what kinds of games you like.

 

[Lyte Edge]

I highly disagree. I've always thought Japanese developers were superior to Western developers. I think their games are more polished, less buggy, imaginative and enjoyable. Admittedly, western developers have improved considerably, especially in the new generation. I just wish western developers created more types of games. I like FPS's as much as the next guy, but there are seriously way to many. How many WW2/war games do we need? I am not even going to mention art and design. Oh well, this is their opinion.

I think Japanese developers made better console games (with the better Western devs working on PCs) through the 32-bit era, but that began to change with the previous generation, and now there's more quality Western-developed titles out on all the consoles. Saying that games from North America and Europe are nothing but FPS games is the same as saying that games from Japan are nothing but cookie-cutter RPGs.

Xbox 360 Top Live Titles (based on UU’s)
1 GTA IV
2 Call of Duty 4
3 Halo 3
4 Guitar Hero III
5 Gears of War
6 Rock Band
7 Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six® Vegas 2
8 Iron Man Demo
9 FIFA 08
10 Forza Motorsport 2


Which of these is made by Asain developers? None ( Iron man published by SEGA)

We are into online gaming but they are not.

I don't know if using the XBox, which has never been popular in Japan, is the right way to look at it. But if there's one thing Japan is clearly far behind in, it's online gaming.

 

[Dali]

I think it's just a different approach to game development combined with "the west" getting better (also PC developers moving to consoles helps). Western companies seem to listen to consumers more and make games for the masses, while an interview I read with a Japanese developer points to it being all about the director's vision over there. You want to go to this area? Too bad I don't want you to go there. The different design philosophy may contribute to the perception of decreased quality.

The markets are also diverging more than ever making one size fits all games more difficult to come by. A non online capable portable game may seem like a technological failure in comparison to Halo 3, but you can't fault a Japanese company for targeting the Japanese market first with the rest of the world an afterthought. Them 'losing their touch' just seems relative.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

As mentioned, Japan isn't losing their touch, they are losing their marketshare. A substantial amount of western gamers are not really into Japanese games no matter how good they are. The sales charts reflect that.

 

[Swifty]

Japan isn't losing its touch, it is just that Japan's touch is losing its marketshare. Japan devs still manage some of the best monster designs, boss designs, levels and controls.

Really? If anything, the Japanese tend to be notorious for awkward, unintuitive, or sub-optimal controls/interfaces. Case in point, Metal Gear Solid. It wasn't until 4 where they finally concluded that perhaps letting the player able to actually sidestep wouldn't ruin the stealth element of the game. And it wasn't until the revision of Snake Eater where we finally got to control the camera. It seems that many Japanese developer control decisions tend to be artifacts of the old 2D way of doing controls.

 

[duckroll]

I wonder, and would love to know.

One day they should release a book on that.

 

[Sol..]

Well as long as West is mostly drowning in uncanny valley obsession Japan has nothing to worry about at least visually.

You'd think so. But that obsession is slowly changing gameplay as we know it. You see it everywhere nowadays with Neko walking and running with proper weight and balance. You see it when drake heaves himself towards that ledge just out of reach. You see it when Labron covers up and bounces off Rasheed Wallace when you attempt to put the ball up in his face in NBA 2k8.

Admittedly, right now it's for the worse. However, one day they are going to get a fucking clue and and those events mentioned above won't be so clunky, expensive, slow, or excessively heavy. Thats our future kiddies and it's not just for show. They redefine the boundaries of our virtual worlds.

 

[HK-47]

I think it's just a different approach to game development combined with "the west" getting better (also PC developers moving to consoles helps). Western companies seem to listen to consumers more and make games for the masses, while an interview I read with a Japanese developer points to it being all about the director's vision over there. You want to go to this area? Too bad I don't want you to go there.

The markets are also diverging more than ever making one size fits all games more difficult to come by. A non online capable portable game may seem like a technological failure in comparison to Halo 3, but you can't fault a Japanese company for targeting the Japanese market first with the rest of the world an afterthought. Them 'losing their touch' just seems relative.

You can when its Nintendo. Their online is so godawful and their biggest and strongest market is the US...

 

[HK-47]

Really? If anything, the Japanese tend to be notorious for awkward, unintuitive, or sub-optimal controls/interfaces. Case in point, Metal Gear Solid. It wasn't until 4 where they finally concluded that perhaps letting the player able to actually sidestep wouldn't ruin the stealth element of the game. And it wasn't until the revision of Snake Eater where we finally got to control the camera. It seems that many Japanese developer control decisions tend to be artifacts of the old 2D way of doing controls.

What about GTA IV with its horrible driving mechanics or that it took until IV to get rid of the horrible lock on targeting system. You can spin it either way

 

[proposition]

One area I think that Western game development excels over Japanese development is the indie scene. Does Japan really have many of the kinds of developers that put out titles like Audiosurf, Darwinia, Uplink, Defcon, Alien Hominid and the like? Overall even though I don't enjoy the styles so much I don't think I could say that Japanese games are not as good as Western games, or that they have lost their touch.

 

[duckroll]

Hey, let's try to keep the discussion intellectual and not degrade into "LOL JAPACRAP NERDS!" vs "ROFL BALD SPACE MARINES FANBOYS!" stuff.

About the Japanese indie scene, it's VERY strong. Most people just don't see it because it's stuck in Japan.

 

[Jonnyram]

Xbox 360 Top Live Titles (based on UU’s)
1 GTA IV
2 Call of Duty 4
3 Halo 3
4 Guitar Hero III
5 Gears of War
6 Rock Band
7 Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six® Vegas 2
8 Iron Man Demo
9 FIFA 08
10 Forza Motorsport 2


Which of these is made by Asain developers? None ( Iron man published by SEGA)

We are into online gaming but they are not.

Weird, the Japanese top ten seems to differ from your list...

Unique games, MMOs excluded because they lack matchmaking (FFXI would be #2 otherwise, I believe):
1. COD4
2. RS Vegas 2
3. Halo 3
4. Gears
5. Lost Planet
6. Armored Core 4 For Answer
7. Vegas
8. Frontline
9. Ikaruga
10. VF5

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I think Japanese developers made better console games (with the better Western devs working on PCs) through the 32-bit era, but that began to change with the previous generation, and now there's more quality Western-developed titles out on all the consoles. Saying that games from North America and Europe are nothing but FPS games is the same as saying that games from Japan are nothing but cookie-cutter RPGs.

I do admit that I haven't played alot of PC games, so I cannot comment on that. I still think Japanese developers venture into more genres than Western developers do. I know North America can develop more than generic FPS's, but it just seems like there are so many out there, especially on the PC. I am a bit biased because I grew up on Japanese console games and my preferences haven't necessarily changed much in games.

 

[duckroll]

Here are some threads that have previously discussed Japanese indie games:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227551
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128666
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103182
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143260

 

[HK-47]

I do admit that I haven't played alot of PC games, so I cannot comment on that. I still think Japanese developers venture into more genres than Western developers do. I know North America can develop more than generic FPS's, but it just seems like there are so many out there, especially on the PC. I am a bit biased because I grew up on Japanese console games and my preferences haven't necessarily changed much in games.

Thats only on consoles. Western indie devs are very diverse and PC is very diverse though the big titles arent. You just have to look

 

[sleeping_dragon]

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10454&Itemid=2

Quoting Kojima, Yamaoka, and Miyamoto.



And they are right. All the fancy tech is made here, which opens up new possibilities. Only a few studios in Japan still "get it", mainly Capcom and the Ico team.

Japan is having trouble sharing knowledge and resources, and also it is more difficult to find employees because the Western studios have access to a world-wide pool of workers (anyone in the UK or Sweden or wherever can find a job in any Western studio).

It would be practically impossible for a Japanese company to make a game like GTA4, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, etc., because developing the tech would take a lot more time because they have more limited access to the research papers (real-time ambient occlusion, realistic material-based physics, etc.) and their workforce is highly sedentary, which prevents technology from spreading from one company to another. There are also less incentives for employees to surpass themselves and grow their skill base.

To some degree it might be true but I think they are too humble and modest about it. Simply put, there are no one in the west that could compare to Kojima or Miyamoto.

 

[etiolate]

Really? If anything, the Japanese tend to be notorious for awkward, unintuitive, or sub-optimal controls/interfaces. Case in point, Metal Gear Solid. It wasn't until 4 where they finally concluded that perhaps letting the player able to actually sidestep wouldn't ruin the stealth element of the game. And it wasn't until the revision of Snake Eater where we finally got to control the camera. It seems that many Japanese developer control decisions tend to be artifacts of the old 2D way of doing controls.

Eh not really. Stop playing Kojima games perhaps? A good japanese game gets more done with less buttons.

 

[jmdajr]

What about GTA IV with its horrible driving mechanics or that it took until IV to get rid of the horrible lock on targeting system. You can spin it either way

What I would give for some GOOD bare knuckle fight mechanics. Those controls still suck complete ass.

 

[proposition]

Simply put, there are no one in the west that could compare to Kojima or Miyamoto.

 

[Swifty]

What about GTA IV with its horrible driving mechanics or that it took until IV to get rid of the horrible lock on targeting system. You can spin it either way

I dunno if that's too good of an example. The driving mechanics of GTA IV is more of an issue of the handling and the physics of the cars, not an actual interface issue.

You do raise a good point about the auto-aim system. Though at least players have the option to switch between auto-aim and free aim. I found myself playing without auto aim for a while but later turned it on after learning that I played optimally with it enabled.

 

[HK-47]

What I would give for some GOOD bare knuckle fight mechanics.

Dear god yes.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Regarding the online criticisms... Yes, they make fewer online games, coincidentally they also make fewer FPS games. But if you look at something like Monster Hunter on PSP, you can't question their ability to make a compelling online title.

But Monster Hunter isn't online. It's local wifi but it's not online, you can't play against someone else unless they are sitting in the same room with you or am I missing something?

 

[GamerSoul]

I agree with the fact that Western Developers are seriously making huge strides in the gaming industry by making things bigger and faster. For example, if EA was in charge of FF XIII's development, we would surely be getting it alot faster becuase of the endless resources they would gladly put into it. We would probably be on XVII by now.



But I still think that Japan Developers have set alot of precedants that are still very important and are just as responsible for the innovations in our games. They are just as important as anyone else in the industry.

 

[Melville]

It's just too bad that almost every american games have crappy art, but hey, nobody's perfect!

 

[epmode]

Hay, I agree with this thread! I still <3 Persona 3, though!

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

I look at things like Patapon, Lumines, Electroplankton, Katamari, Loco Roco, etc. and I respectfully disagree.

Coincidentally, most of the games I'm looking forward to are Japanese titles.

 

[proposition]

It's just too bad that almost every american games have crappy art, but hey, nobody's perfect!

Someone could equally look at the many anime stylings of Japanese games and draw the same conclusion. Different strokes.

 

[Dolphin]

GAF isn't sectarian, not at all!

Both Japanese and Western developers put out great stuff, but I'd agree Western developers have gotten an edge over the stuff coming out of Japan recently.

 

[epmode]

It's just too bad that almost every american games have crappy art

There's horrible art on both sides of the Pacific. It's just that a great deal of regurgitated Japanese anime garbage tends to be confused with Good Art by reclusive videogamey types.

 

[duckroll]

It's just too bad that almost every american games have crappy art, but hey, nobody's perfect!

*facepalm collection*

 

[Sho Nuff]

It's just too bad that almost every american games have crappy art, but hey, nobody's perfect!

oh gaf

 

[Bebpo]

Eh not really. Stop playing Kojima games perhaps? A good japanese game gets more done with less buttons.

This is true. Most Western developers came from PC so they were used to having a ton of buttons and had to figure out how to fit all of it on a controller. OTOH most Japanese devs came from NES and were able to expand controls when it added something to the gameplay. Not just to fill up buttons.

 

[tehbear]

I hope they regain their touch, I am bored.

 

[avatar299]

I agree that they are pretty hypocritical (with the exception of Kojima): Miyamoto and Nintendo have relied on the same IP's and first party titles for every generation. Now, I'm not saying that games like Super Mario Galaxy and Mario Kart Wii are bad, but they need to desperately think of something new, yet traditional, that's actually good.

Boom there goes your credibility.

 

[Dolphin]

It's just too bad that almost every american games have crappy art, but hey, nobody's perfect!

You're right, all games that don't showcase an anime type style have bad "art."

 

[Tiktaalik]

There are also less incentives for employees to surpass themselves and grow their skill base.

From what I've read this certainly seems true.

As well another big thing that I think makes western companies look really impressive this gen is the fact that so many talented PC devs have jumped into console development. Epic, Valve and others that never really made console games before have shown up and are very tech savvy and are making extremely high quality titles.

 

[biggkidd32]

I'm still pretty excited about Japanese games. We are just noticing their weaknesses more as western developer move into the console realm.

Western devs have streamlined their game production via licensed middleware solutions, while most Japanese companies built their engines in house. Most Western devs have a PC legacy, where online has been ubiquitous. Japanese developers have a console legacy, where online gaming has only recently been widely embraced.

 

[Y2Kev]

Hasn't the Wii shown that the Japanese still get it and the Western developers are the ones who are lagging behind?

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Meh. I still think Japanese developers (generally speaking, of course) are better at creating tight game mechanics, and controls are really 95% of the game for me.

Also, gaming seems to be in a transitional phase right now, with many companies trying to figure out the future of gaming. And quality is often compromised because of uncertainty in direction.

There is definitely a divide between self 1 (conscious mind) and self 2 (subconscious mind) type of games. An example: GTAIV is a self 1 game, because the representation of actions (running away from cops, pulling off a heist, dating someone, satire) is the source of the appeal. Few people really care HOW those actions are achieved, i.e. what the motor/brain functions of the player are.

Then you have games like Viewtiful Joe where the focus is on the button inputs and how the brain processes the commands to the fingers. Few people care what Joe does to Fire Leo, but actually executing it (the HOW) is the thrill of the game.

To me, the difference between these types of games is huge, the point of making them completely separate hobbies (again, to me). It's my wish that the market somehow divides and that each type of gaming can benefit from the newfound focus. Right now, while developers are trying to figure out what exactly will please consumers, there is a watering down of quality (TO ME!).