Support NeoGAF

[Doctor_No]

If you are trying to buy sex or go to some seedy establishments you will run into this in the cities...

Glad someone noticed that more then half the establishments he put on his site were "seedy". Sorry, but half these "pubs" aren't "pubs" in the classical sense. Pictures of women on the entrance should be evidence enough. Not to say there isn't racism or bigotry in Japan, because there is, but as a tourist it's not much to worry about.

 

[Thai]

The attitudes in this thread are just insane!

"Yes lets all protect Japan's honor there is nothing negative about this country what's so ever!"

You guys are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think anyone is out to protect Japan's honor.

Since when has it been a bad thing to get both sides of the story? There's an issue that foreigners are discriminated against, some say it's not true and suddenly "lolz! Japan Defense Force!" To all you assholes, just because I happen to like the culture, it doesn't mean I think they're perfect, sheesh!

The fact of the matter is, Japanese, and I would say the same of most Koreans and Chinese as well, are still a very traditional and patriarchal society that is not used to multiculturalism and not used to foreigners. You would never understand it unless you were born and raised in that culture. Imagine growing up among only people of your own culture and suddenly some foreigners come and cause some shit. Of course you're going to associate other foreigners with trouble because they're different from you. Now of course, I think this is a totally outdated way of thinking, but parts of the world are developed differently than other parts.

Do I wish racism was stamped out? Hell, yeah. But what I see is that the Japanese are no better or worse than the rest of the world. There are a few restaurants/spas/whorehouses where you're not allowed in in Japan? END OF THE MOTHERFUCKING WORLD! You know there are places you can get shot or worse in the rest of the world due to the colour of your skin.

There should be lots of mirror gazing in this thread. I mean, FFS, the "japanese tourist" is basically a stereotype in America.

I've been in Canada for 22 years, speak perfect french AND english and still feel that "white people don't want me here" feeling every once in a while.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Imagine growing up among only people of your own culture and suddenly some foreigners come and cause some shit. Of course you're going to associate other foreigners with trouble because they're different from you.

I'm positive that there are many westerners, black or white, that go to Japan and act like total fools. This makes westerners look like uncouth hayseeds. Can you blame them for feeling some anti-westerner sentiments when some westerners go to Japan and act disrespectful, loud, and have no regard for the country they're visiting?

"Lots of black people steal things, so it's only natural for white people not to trust them."


Some of you guys need to listen to yourselves.

 

[plovie]

It's more of an anti-tourist thing than a racist thing
.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm getting the impression that these signs are only an issue because white Americans are simply not used to being discriminated against.

Btw, I'm a white American. I'm not offended by these signs but I can imagine others who would be simply because they've never experienced discrimination of their race.

yeah, i don't want to defend japan for this or anything, but i think this has something to do with it...

"Lots of black people steal things, so it's only natural for white people not to trust them."


Some of you guys need to listen to yourselves.

that explains why people follow me around in stores in the mall, but walk away when i approach them to ask a question!

they don't expectme to *buy* something... it all makes sense now!

 

[Fuzz Rez]

Some Japanese nationalists are pretty scary.

My friend is in Japan now and there has been few pubs and small restaurants where he could not enter cos' he was "gajin". But japanese friend of he's says that some of these places would gladly welcome forgein people also but then they will have problems with Yakuza.

 

[kablooey]

For whatever anecdotal evidence it's worth, my dad's gone to Japan on business trips, and he's reported being turned away from a handful of bars that were marked as "Japanese Only." Enough times to say that he recognized it as a pattern.

I gotta admit, this sort of thing has turned me off of wanting to visit Japan, though on the other hand I've had friends who've spent a year or two living in Japan and never encountered anything like that. Maybe it's a generational thing...

 

[tetsuoxb]

For whatever anecdotal evidence it's worth, my dad's gone to Japan on business trips, and he's reported being turned away from a handful of bars that were marked as "Japanese Only." Enough times to say that he recognized it as a pattern.

I gotta admit, this sort of thing has turned me off of wanting to visit Japan, though on the other hand I've had friends who've spent a year or two living in Japan and never encountered anything like that. Maybe it's a generational thing...

No, its a "not actually a bar but a brothel/hostess club" thing. Your dad probably didn't realize what kind of place he was trying to go in?
(Assuming your Dad doesn't speak Japanese/wasn't accompanied by someone who does.)

Most of these places deny foreigners not because they want to be racist, but because Japanese language ability is a must. Last thing they need is a girl getting into a bad/dangerous situation because the customer doesn't speak enough Japanese to understand the rules. It's a bit like how shopping malls in the US don't allow unaccompanied minors for similar reasons.

 

[Jake.]

Some Japanese nationalists are pretty scary.

My friend is in Japan now and there has been few pubs and small restaurants where he could not enter cos' he was "gajin". But japanese friend of he's says that some of these places would gladly welcome forgein people also but then they will have problems with Yakuza if they do.

i was in shibuya about a month ago with a friend and about five trucks of these dudes turned up, looked like the gestapo. had huge banners and amps setup everywhere. we stood there and watched/listened to there shit for about 5mins (i couldn't understand but my friend could). the stares we were getting from everyone were pretty hilarious. :lol

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

The attitudes in this thread are just insane!

"Yes lets all protect Japan's honor there is nothing negative about this country what's so ever!"

You guys are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think anyone is out to protect Japan's honor.

Since when has it been a bad thing to get both sides of the story? There's an issue that foreigners are discriminated against, some say it's not true and suddenly "lolz! Japan Defense Force!" To all you assholes, just because I happen to like the culture, it doesn't mean I think they're perfect, sheesh!

The fact of the matter is, Japanese, and I would say the same of most Koreans and Chinese as well, are still a very traditional and patriarchal society that is not used to multiculturalism and not used to foreigners. You would never understand it unless you were born and raised in that culture. Imagine growing up among only people of your own culture and suddenly some foreigners come and cause some shit. Of course you're going to associate other foreigners with trouble because they're different from you. Now of course, I think this is a totally outdated way of thinking, but parts of the world are developed differently than other parts.

Do I wish racism was stamped out? Hell, yeah. But what I see is that the Japanese are no better or worse than the rest of the world. There are a few restaurants/spas/whorehouses where you're not allowed in in Japan? END OF THE MOTHERFUCKING WORLD! You know there are places you can get shot or worse in the rest of the world due to the colour of your skin.

It really has no impact on me (I don't care if a few titty bars or public baths won't accept my coin), and I don't think it's a big deal, but I can still say it's wrong. I guess I should've take more anthropology in school to cement some cultural relativism.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Teaching English, or just traveling?

Beyond the superficial "politeness," foreigners are not wanted here.

You're so full of shit.

Please don't try to speak for the whole of Japan.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The guy who writes this site is well-documented within the internet as being a guy who thrives on getting attention, using loud and obnoxious tactics to deal with problems in a country where using the kind of tactics he uses - being extremely vocal on site about the perceived insults, bringing lawyers and staging demonstrations instead of directing complaints discreetly, etc. Debito has turned from being a guy who wanted to give other tourists and foreigners interested in staying in Japan for extended periods of time information about difficult things (purchasing insurance, how to deal with getting a ticket, how to get a permanent residency visa, how to become a Japanese citizen) into a guy looking after his own self-interests and trying to bring as much attention to himself as possible by going on this ridiculous crusade against the racist treatment of foreigners in Japan.

http://www.debito.org/?p=1675

His newest crusade was trying to protest fingerprinting when entering Japan by paying his taxes in one-yen coins at the municpal office, which can get you arrested and is illegal, since there is a limit on the amount of small change you can use for a transaction with the government.



Debito does not comprehend the idea that all society is not like American society; even though he's been living in Sapporo for the past 18 years, he still retains a very bullish, aggressive attitude. In his most famous incident involving a public bathhouse in Otsu that had a sign "refusing entry" to foreigners, he saw the sign, then decided first to go get a reporter, his friend and their family, his family (wife and two kids) as well as his Japanese passport and quickly started an argument with the attending and the manager about the sign.

A small personal anecdote to this story; when Debito came to my University's campus one year for a speech on this very subject, I was in class with a Japanese woman from Otsu - we became friends and she told me when she took her boyfriend there they didn't have any problem, just walked in, paid their fees and took a bath. The sign existed, she said, to keep drunken Russians who didn't obey the rules of the bathhouse and previously trashed it out. Debito bringing it up to the manager however, put him in a position where he couldn't deny the sign even though he wouldn't have said anything if Debito hadn't brought it up first.

This man's post is truth. Debito seemed to originally start out with good intentions, but his insane crusade has really gotten out of hand.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I lived for around ten months in Tokyo (Ropongi) many years ago (1991-1992) It was the most rascist place I've ever been to in my life.

My two friends and I (two white, one black) were refused entry into restaurants on multiple occassions. "Sorry," the host would say "but our waitresses don't speak english."

When the subway was packed we would have to stand in front of the seated people. Rarely would anyone face us. At times you would be surrounded by the back of people's heads. One time a really old lady got up and pushed her way into the crowd as soon as I grabbed the bar near her. It seemed she prefered giving up her seat and standing rather than having a gaijin stand over her.

If a Japanese girl hung around with a non-Japanese guy then she was looked down upon. The term we heard was "miso shobai" which loosely translated means water trout; a dirty, dull-witted fish that swims in the polluted Tokyo River.

Girls did hang out with us nonetheless, despite being branded as sluts. From them we learned to speak some Japanese. When gaijin mangle the their language is said to sound thuggish and low-born. They call it "namateru." Add to that we did this with a female lilt as that's where we learned it from. Apparently a six foot white guy speaking like a Japanese gangster with a female accent was VERY intimidating. The first impression one makes is that of a psychopath.

I assume things have changed as the years go by and I hope the newer generation is a little more laid back. By the same token however people change slowly and the older generation probably never will.

Good god you are like the king of misinformation.

"miso shobai"? What the hell is that? Do you mean mizu-shobai which literally translated as "water trade" and refers to 'companions'. A large amount of the gaijin hanging out in roppongi are extremely sleazy.

Unless you were learning your Japanese from the local Yakuza in Roppongi, I highly doubt you sounded like a gangster. Given your obvious poor knowledge of Japanese, I doubt you sounded like anything other than a strange version of your female companions. And "namateru" isn't a word. Do you mean "nameteru"? If so, you are completely mistaken about the meaning. Please stop spewing bullshit.

Seriously, if you go to Japan and just hang out in Roppongi trying to pick up women, then you are going to come away with a very skewed perception of the country. Like a said a lot of the gaijin in Roppongi are sleazy assholes who are looking for a cheap piece of ass. They are extremely rude to boot. That's not even to mention the large population of Africans who work for clubs and bars and forcibly try to drag passerby's into their employer's businesses. With a population like that, it is no wonder the locals are a bit wary of foreigners.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Sigh...I hate these Japan topics because people A) tend to romanticize Japan and B) write off anybody else's negative experience if it didn't happen to them.



Basically.

Japan's great, but sweeping the negatives unde the rug or trying to say they don't count because of anecdote-X-about-the-west is pretty reprehensible.

In Kyoto, there is a whole neighbourhood of Koreans. They were brought over as slave labour during the war to build planes; afterwards they had no place to go, so they stayed on that land.

To this day Japan refuses to recognize them. They've lived in one place for 60+ years in the middle of a thriving city with no running water, no electricity, no access to medical care and basically little to no rights or even citizenship for 3rd generation kids because their parents & grandparents were never recognized. They weren't allowed to even be hired to work by Japanese until the 1970s. Four years ago the UN sent inspectors and denounced this, saying these people were living in Third World conditions due to governmental negligence. But nobody cares, and nobody does anything because this is Japan and if you're not Japanese you really shouldn't be here anyway; doesn't matter if you're third generation in the country.

These people have been raising money for decades to buy the land they live on, and have met governmental resistance every step of the way even though the land hasn't been used for anything else since the 1930s.

Canada is not without its problems, but this sort of thing doesn't happen there.

There are far more Koreans who came to Japan for work on their own accord than there were Koreans who were forcibly brought to Japan for labor purposes. Most of the forced labor wasn't in factories "building planes" either.

I sincerely doubt the Japanese government refuses to recognize them "to this day". The government highly encourages the naturalization of ethnic Koreans. I am more inclined to believe that they are choosing to keep their Korean citizenships on their own. They and their kids could apply for citizenship if they wanted to. There was no law that stated that Koreans could not be employed by Japanese companies. That is just bullshit.

Now I don't know about that particular Korean community in Kyoto, but there are plenty of thriving Korean communities in Osaka and other regions, so I highly doubt your post is entirely true.

 

[norinrad21]

Yes lets all protect Japan's honor there is nothing negative about this country what's so ever!

Well i haven't seen tnw, the greatest defender and protect of the Empror yet, but am sure others are already doing his work for him

 

[Jake.]

i think you have your head up your ass re: koreans in japan.

"There was no law that stated that Koreans could not be employed by Japanese companies. That is just bullshit."

no shit, but it's far from easy for them to get employed and even if they do they still suffer huge levels of discrimination.

i can't imagine being a korean or filipino living in japan.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

i think you have your head up your ass re: koreans in japan.

"There was no law that stated that Koreans could not be employed by Japanese companies. That is just bullshit."

no shit, but it's far from easy for them to get employed and even if they do they still suffer huge levels of discrimination.

i can't imagine being a korean or filipino living in japan.

Head up my ass? No.

The guy said in his post, "They weren't allowed to even be hired to work by Japanese until the 1970s."

And that is false. There was no law, and there were in fact many Koreans who worked for Japanese people and companies. I would assume that the majority of the ethnic-Korean population were employed by ethnic-Japanese.

 

[Rice-Eater]

These people who are prejudice against other races, do they also have a problem with non Japanese Asians? I sometimes hear about how the Japanese look at themselves as Japanese and not Asians. Like they are there own race and don't want to be associated with the rest of us Asians. Of course I'm not stupid enough to think that this is what everybody thinks. But these certain people that we're talking about, they'll probably treat me no better then a black or white guy even though I could blend in as long as I don't speak, right?

 

[smurfx]

Honestly the hardest part for me going to Japan was the fact that I'm a married man and they would get so offended that I wouldn't go whoring and bang all the women they threw at me. 75% of the population treat you like a rockstar, 24% treat you like a normal person and 1% might treat you very well but say something in private later.

oh snaps! so if i go to japan i will be treated like a rockstar? damn i will go there tomorrow! never knew i would be treated like a rockstar just for being a foreigner. give me a fucking break. :lol

 

[Rice-Eater]

oh snaps! so you mean if i go to japan i will be treated like a rockstar? damn i will go there tomorrow! never knew i would be treated like a rockstar just for being a foreigner. give me a fucking break. :lol

Just make sure not to drop the cap

http://youtube.com/watch?v=e7faSpziJXc

 

[Deleted member 17706]

These people who are prejudice against other races, do they also have a problem with non Japanese Asians? I sometimes hear about how the Japanese look at themselves as Japanese and not Asians. Like they are there own race and don't want to be associated with the rest of us Asians. Of course I'm not stupid enough to think that this is what everybody thinks. But these certain people that we're talking about, they'll probably treat me no better then a black or white guy even though I could blend in as long as I don't speak, right?

Well, most people will certainly identify themselves as a people living in the region of Asia, but a lot of people won't really associate themselves with other Asians. This is not something specific to Japan. You won't find many real Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc... relating with other Asian peoples and looking at themselves as part of a bigger, whole "Asia". The whole idea that there is "one Asia" is kind of a western thing I think.

And regarding the people who are prejudice against other races: there is definitely a group who focuses their racist sentiment on Koreans and Chinese in particular. Anti-Korean / Anti-Chinese sentiments are especially prominent on the internet.

 

[liquid_gears]

Fucking hell, this has really touched a raw nerve.

In other news, racism is a global probem, so why would Japan be any different?

I've always thought of Japan as a rather 'closed' society anyway so I suppose this just confirms my thoughts.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Good point about the one Asia thing. In America I notice a lot of Asians of different nationalities like to be associated together. Even with our different languages and culture, we kind of see each other as the same people. It may sound stupid, but I never really thought too much about how Asians from Asia probably don't feel the same way.

And about the anti-Chinese/Korean prejudice. Well that doesn't surprise me, it seems there is still a lot of bad blood between those countries since WW2.

 

[Ronok]

These people who are prejudice against other races, do they also have a problem with non Japanese Asians? I sometimes hear about how the Japanese look at themselves as Japanese and not Asians. Like they are there own race and don't want to be associated with the rest of us Asians. Of course I'm not stupid enough to think that this is what everybody thinks. But these certain people that we're talking about, they'll probably treat me no better then a black or white guy even though I could blend in as long as I don't speak, right?

In the same way people from the UK don't see themselves as European. If you live in England you will hear a lot of discrimination against other Europeans who come to England for work as well. Especially Polish people recently. People are quite open about it as well so........


As for Racism in Japan, I didn't really experience any that I know of. There were odd moment steming obviously from a lack of contact with foriegners such as being stalked by some random people who wanted a photo, but, nothing sinister....... Actually there was an old drunk guy randomly inquiring about the size of my penis...... That or telling me about the size of his.... I really don't know. Whatever it was there were some other people hovering about looking on in despare whilst I was laughing/trying to stop myself laughing.


I wasn't told I couldn't enter anywhere and had some pretty friendly people talk to me. In both Osaka and Hakodatte I had some pretty long conversations with the people making us food in some nice restaurants.

In Tokyo and Kyoto no problems either. Just asked what I wanted and brought it out... Although one lady who ran the all you can eat Okonomiyaki shop asked why I didn't stay to eat more.... I was already pretty full. She said I had to come back, but, it was my second from last day...


I guess the only time I was discriminated against (if you can call it that) was when I got me and my girlfriends tickets to a concert and we were quite close to the front. As I was so tall I kept getting in peoples way so one person batted me with a fan......


Obviously others have different experiences, but, some sound exagerated a bit. Unless things have changed quite fast, I find it hard to believe that entire carriages on a train would turn away from people. I did have some times when certain people wouldn't sit next to me (this happens in London as well though strangely enough) but them seats were quickly filled. I wouldn't have even thought about this though if I hadn't read others complaining about it before I went.

 

[reggieandTFE]

My white girlfriend had a blast when she lived in Osaka for 7 months, and the two weeks when I visited were probably the most fun I had in my life.

She worked for Nova (pre-implosion) and despite the fact that it violated rules became good friends with a lot of middle-aged Japanese women and their families. One of the great times I had there was being invited to dinner with a woman named Yuko and her family. They were relatively well off, took us bowling, made an awesome vegetarian dinner (despite not completely understanding the concept) and let me talk about Ichiro and Daisuke with their baseball obsessed kids.

This being sad, she did encounter a lot of less than enlightened racial attitudes towards other Asians. Some of the absurd things her students would say about Koreans made her very uncomfortable. And the whole idea of a Gaijin card is a bit repressive, especially knowing that her half-Italian/half-Korean friend was forced to present hers 3 times by police for no reason in the year that she was there.

Anyways, in my opinion, there's no black and white, wrong and right to racial attitudes encountered in Japan.

 

[Oichi]

i can't imagine being a korean or filipino living in japan.

Mixed Korean/Filipino living in Japan for the past four years, REPORTING FOR DUTY. Never had a problem with racism or anything of the sort here!

 

[rotaryspirit]

This man's post is truth. Debito seemed to originally start out with good intentions, but his insane crusade has really gotten out of hand.

To keep on topic for maybe half a post or so..

It's a real shame what happened to Debito. He went there with the best intentions, but he also went during a very different time than when most of us are going as well. He had a different generation to deal with but lacked the resources we now use on the internet. I think that first experience of real racism wherever he worked for a construction company (but this article I think is removed from his website, I couldn't find it anywhere), but when you actually meet the guy you realize - he just isn't very likable of a guy. His posture, attitude, and speech all tend to irritate most trying to hold some kind of conversation with him.

The divorce obviously hit him hard as well, since he thought he would be together forever. A lot of white guys who first go over to Japan fall in love with the first girl who grabs them off the boat; this could be for a variety of reasons, but probably is because this is the first girl that has really paid a lot of attention to them. Then, much like a whirlwind, everything is torn down. I wouldn't have wanted my children to grow up with a father like Debito, always stirring up the pot every chance he got; it would make life growing up in that household very difficult for them and the wife.

Sometimes, I feel kind of sorry for him, but then it's mostly his own damn fault.

 

[K.Jack]

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm getting the impression that these signs are only an issue because white Americans are simply not used to being discriminated against.

Btw, I'm a white American. I'm not offended by these signs but I can imagine others who would be simply because they've never experienced discrimination of their race.

I agree 100%. No offense, but most white Americans have no idea how much it sucks to be ostracized because of race. I'm sure it's really a terrible reality shock the first time it happens.

Accept it or not, a subconscious sense of entitlement is built up when you live in a society that recognizes you as "the norm".

 

[HolyStar]

Fucking hell, this has really touched a raw nerve.

In other news, racism is a global probem, so why would Japan be any different?

Alright why the hell do people post this? Only when there is a racism in Japan thread do people post lol racism exists everywhere. No one else does this on any other thread, look at any thread where something crappy happens and posters never respond by saying, "lol old news people have been raped/killed/murdered everywhere and forever!" People talk about this not to "cure racism" but to get their frustrations out. Some people act like Japan can do no wrong and start to sterotype or blame the person who felt the negative impact. But then again this is a video game forum.

If this thread was a Afrimative Action/America thread then most posters would be in a uproar. Pathetic.

 

[rykomatsu]

Good point about the one Asia thing. In America I notice a lot of Asians of different nationalities like to be associated together. Even with our different languages and culture, we kind of see each other as the same people. It may sound stupid, but I never really thought too much about how Asians from Asia probably don't feel the same way.

When you say Asians, I'm assuming you're referring to Asian-Americans?

While I can't comment about Asian-Americans/Asians in general, while it doesn't surface too often, there is a significant rift between Japanese nationals and Japanese-Americans. While most won't vocalize it, quite a few Japanese expats don't enjoy being associated with Japanese-Americans or their culture.

 

[obsolete]

I agree that Debito is tries a bit too hard to be a "revolutionary", but on the other hand he seems to be the only person bringing foreigner's issues to light. The whole "no foreigners" picture gallery is just the tip of the iceberg though.

He was the just about the only person raising awareness of the whole fingerprinting BS at Narita. Just to review, all foreigners, regardless of visa or how long they've lived here are required to be fingerprinted, just like any other visitor, every time they come back to Japan. So, while the Japanese spouse and children go to the Japanese line, the foreign spouse must go to a separate line to be "documented" every time they enter the country. That's fucked up, period. I pointed this fingerprinting BS out on GAF as it was coming, and most of my fellow j-gaffers were like "huh? what?" At least people like Debito try to raise awareness (which ultimately doesn't matter to most people, apparently.)

Secondly, I'm fairly confident that people who are brought over here, (and most teachers for that matter), have a incredibly different experience in Japan than people who come over on their own and make their own way. Case in point: How many of you have searched for your own apartment? And I do not mean "foreigner friendly" real-estate agents like Sakura house, or guest houses, etc. I've been refused several times outright because I'm not Japanese. No sugar coating it, the landlords straight-up said no foreigners despite the fact that I speak Japanese, know Japanese customs, was able to prove I have sufficient income and a stable job, and a guarantor.

And how many of you work in "international" jobs? If you're in a multinational company (finance, marketing, design, etc) chances are that you're working with other foreigners and the Japanese people you work with have spent time overseas. That's going to be a vastly different work environment compared with being the only non-Japanese in a Japanese company.

Basically, the point I want to make is that people here saying "I was there for a year and it was great, etc" haven't really lived here. You were/are in a bubble. (And by here I mean Tokyo. I can't speak for other cities/countryside.)

 

[Stinkles]

Debito goes around looking for it and he finds it.

I find Japan to be just a fantastically warm place, especially when you end up somewhere odd and non-touristy, like Sapporo, Osaka, etc. But the reason Japanese xenophobia is very different from many other countries, is that it is built into the law and constitution and 100% naturalized immigration (as you'd find in the US or UK say) is sort of impossible. You would always be considered legally different.

 

[john tv]

Agree entirely. And what's funny is non-English teaching foreigners probably hate the English teachers more than anything. That hierarchy of foreigners in Japan pdf was so true.

http://pdf.textfiles.com/posters/japan-hierarchy.pdf

Yumehoshi, LOL

 

[rotaryspirit]

I agree that Debito is tries a bit too hard to be a "revolutionary", but on the other hand he seems to be the only person bringing foreigner's issues to light. The whole "no foreigners" picture gallery is just the tip of the iceberg though.

He was the just about the only person raising awareness of the whole fingerprinting BS at Narita. Just to review, all foreigners, regardless of visa or how long they've lived here are required to be fingerprinted, just like any other visitor, every time they come back to Japan. So, while the Japanese spouse and children go to the Japanese line, the foreign spouse must go to a separate line to be "documented" every time they enter the country. That's fucked up, period. I pointed this fingerprinting BS out on GAF as it was coming, and most of my fellow j-gaffers were like "huh? what?" At least people like Debito try to raise awareness (which ultimately doesn't matter to most people, apparently.)

Secondly, I'm fairly confident that people who are brought over here, (and most teachers for that matter), have a incredibly different experience in Japan than people who come over on their own and make their own way. Case in point: How many of you have searched for your own apartment? And I do not mean "foreigner friendly" real-estate agents like Sakura house, or guest houses, etc. I've been refused several times outright because I'm not Japanese. No sugar coating it, the landlords straight-up said no foreigners despite the fact that I speak Japanese, know Japanese customs, was able to prove I have sufficient income and a stable job, and a guarantor.

And how many of you work in "international" jobs? If you're in a multinational company (finance, marketing, design, etc) chances are that you're working with other foreigners and the Japanese people you work with have spent time overseas. That's going to be a vastly different work environment compared with being the only non-Japanese in a Japanese company.

Basically, the point I want to make is that people here saying "I was there for a year and it was great, etc" haven't really lived here. You were/are in a bubble. (And by here I mean Tokyo. I can't speak for other cities/countryside.)

He isn't just bringing these issues to light man. Did you even read the article that he wrote and the iyagarase he wanted to try and implement that would have gotten you possibly arrested? He isn't trying to raise awareness at all anymore - he's trying to bring attention to himself, not to the social problems that Japan has. If he was really trying to bring light to social problems, he wouldn't be attacking the system in the way he is - by force, using aggressive scare tactics to try and bully shopkeepers and business owners into doing what he wants. The whole point of this is he's gone from someone who was bringing awareness and light on some issues that people didn't know about to being an asshole crusader who is only interested in pushing his own name and agenda onto everyone else. He's a vocal minority who embarrasses the rest of Americans who come to Japan without those radical ideas in mind. He shouldn't want to scare the business owners into removing the signs, he should be convincing them through kindness. Rather than reinforcing a negative stereotype the Japanese already have about foreigners he should be trying to show them that it isn't all that bad in foreign lands.

As far as I know, every single country I've been to has a residents/citizens line and a visitors line. The actual issue of fingerprinting is a personal one. Do you suffer from it in any way? Does it really bother you that you are asked for your fingerprints? Personally I don't really care. I'm just as annoyed by the fact I have to strip down to just shirt and pants, take out all of my electronics from my packed bags and put them in a separate bin, walk through a detector, and still face the possibility of being more throughly searched because the officer thinks I'm keeping something in my PS3 and forces me to turn it on.

Concerning apartments - landlords everywhere are assholes. In trying to get a 2 bedroom apartment in downtown Vancouver, my friend and I, both white - were turned away directly from two apartments, another said he would rent us the place if we put down three months deposit for rent. This despite my job working at one of the better restaurants in the city and his job as an advertiser with a fixed income. Why were we denied? Because he wanted his girlfriend, who didn't have a job, to live with us as well and they were concerned that two men who made 3+ grand a month couldn't afford the ~1200/month rent. I speak English. I've had apartments before. I have good references. Why didn't I get the place? Landlord didn't like me. There's shit all I can do about it, just apologize to the woman we were lined up to get the apartment from and find some other place.

 

[john tv]

Just finished reading the thread. Lot of interesting comments in here.

I've been here 7 1/2 years (about as long as obsolete if I'm not mistaken), and I've had a few issues, but nothing really major. The worst things that have happened to me are A) being refused a nice apartment because "the owner is old and doesn't like white people" (but that worked out in the end, because the apartment I ended up getting afterwards was all sorts of kickass), and B) getting refused by open taxis because I'm a foreigner.

The apartment thing was disappointing, but I got over it and decided not to be too angry. Ultimately I just feel sorry for people who think that way. As for taxi drivers, I've learned a few tricks to ensure they'll take me no matter what now, so that's no longer an issue.

I think there's certainly some amount of racism in Japan, but it's definitely not everywhere, that's for sure. I have a lot of very dear friends in Japan who I consider to be like family to me, and who treat me no different than they do any of their Japanese friends.

It's all about your own attitude and approach to living here IMO.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

There are far more Koreans who came to Japan for work on their own accord than there were Koreans who were forcibly brought to Japan for labor purposes. Most of the forced labor wasn't in factories "building planes" either.

I sincerely doubt the Japanese government refuses to recognize them "to this day". The government highly encourages the naturalization of ethnic Koreans. I am more inclined to believe that they are choosing to keep their Korean citizenships on their own. They and their kids could apply for citizenship if they wanted to. There was no law that stated that Koreans could not be employed by Japanese companies. That is just bullshit.

Now I don't know about that particular Korean community in Kyoto, but there are plenty of thriving Korean communities in Osaka and other regions, so I highly doubt your post is entirely true.

Im not talking about all Koreans. There are tons of gainfully employed Koreans, if there weren't there'd be no Pachinko industry. Talking about a specific group here, brought during the war to the government basically said "why the fuck are you still here?" after the war and left them to rot in squalor. Getting work was basically impossible, so they were stuck working for pennies for the same Nissan plant they built warplanes for during the war, while living in a shanty town in Uji.

Beautiful, isn't it? The government's continually threatening to kick out the people who've lived there for 60+ years and send in bulldozers. Many of these people are in their 80s and have no place to go.

The United Nations Human Rights Commission sent their inspector in two years ago. He wasn't impressed.

You can read the report here:

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/G06/103/96/PDF/G0610396.pdf?OpenElement

Summary excerpt:

The Special Rapporteur concluded that there is racial discrimination and xenophobia in Japan, and that it affects three circles of discriminated groups: the national minorities - the Buraku people, the Ainu and the people of Okinawa; people and descendants of former Japanese
colonies - Koreans and Chinese; foreigners and migrants from other Asian countries and from the rest of the world. The manifestations of such discrimination are first of all of a social and economic nature. All surveys show that minorities live in a situation of marginalization in their access to education, employment, health, housing, etc. Secondly, the discrimination is of a political nature: the national minorities are invisible in State institutions. Finally, there is profound discrimination of a cultural and historical nature, which affects principally the national minorities and the descendents of former Japanese colonies. This is mainly reflected in the poor recognition and transmission of the history of those communities and in the perpetuation of the existing discriminatory image of those groups.

And this is just a few issues among many. Do we want to get into Yasukuni? Maybe another time.

I don't want to make it sound like the Japanese are a bunch of backwards bigots, that's not fair at all. As I said earlier, most people are pretty cool. But there are a lot of people in this thread who don't seem to be aware of what's going on around them. Not to put too fine a point on it, but if anyone honestly thinks 75% of Japan (or any country) thinks they're a rockstar they're operating under a certain level of delusion. And I don't like it when people who haven't studied this try to explain away the real troubles people go through as the misperceptions of ignorant Americans or people just trying to get into hostess bars, as has been repeatedly and wrongly said in this thread.

Japan's a marvelous place with a beautiful culture and history, but there's an ugly side too and there's nothing noble in defending that. Many Japanese don't like it at all either, disagreeing with injustice doesn't make you love Japan any less.

EDIT: In fact, thats part of why it bothers me when people try to sweep these these under the rug. There's this attitude like "oh, its their culture, who are we to interfere?" as if the Japanese are endemically racist and lack the same desires for universal human rights the rest of us do. That these things continue is part of the double edged sword that is 和　- things just get ignored because it's improper to bring them up most of the time, to the point that people who live their whole lives in Japan don't realize they're going on. I agree that stomping around like this Debito character doesn't resolve the issue, just widens the divide in a lot of ways, but there has to be a middle ground between that and turning a blind eye altogether because "hey, there's racism everywhere." If you believe human rights are fundamental, these things aren't cool anywhere

 

[Jack Random]

Some Japanese nationalists are pretty scary.

My friend is in Japan now and there has been few pubs and small restaurants where he could not enter cos' he was "gajin". But japanese friend of he's says that some of these places would gladly welcome forgein people also but then they will have problems with Yakuza.

These guys look like the Japanese version of southerners who still ride around with Confederate flags

 

[Jack Random]

Just finished reading the thread. Lot of interesting comments in here.

I've been here 7 1/2 years (about as long as obsolete if I'm not mistaken), and I've had a few issues, but nothing really major. The worst things that have happened to me are A) being refused a nice apartment because "the owner is old and doesn't like white people" (but that worked out in the end, because the apartment I ended up getting afterwards was all sorts of kickass), and B) getting refused by open taxis because I'm a foreigner.

The apartment thing was disappointing, but I got over it and decided not to be too angry. Ultimately I just feel sorry for people who think that way. As for taxi drivers, I've learned a few tricks to ensure they'll take me no matter what now, so that's no longer an issue.

I think there's certainly some amount of racism in Japan, but it's definitely not everywhere, that's for sure. I have a lot of very dear friends in Japan who I consider to be like family to me, and who treat me no different than they do any of their Japanese friends.

It's all about your own attitude and approach to living here IMO.

I love visiting Japan and really see it as someplace i could eventually live, what sort of job opportunities are there for westerners (minus "english teacher")

 

[rykomatsu]

Japan's a marvelous place with a beautiful culture and history, but there's an ugly side too and there's nothing noble in defending that. Many Japanese don't like it at all either, disagreeing with injustice doesn't make you love Japan any less.

EDIT: In fact, thats part of why it bothers me when people try to sweep these these under the rug. There's this attitude like "oh, its their culture, who are we to interfere?" as if the Japanese are endemically racist and lack the same desires for universal human rights the rest of us do. That these things continue is part of the double edged sword that is 和　- things just get ignored because it's improper to bring them up most of the time, to the point that people who live their whole lives in Japan don't realize they're going on. I agree that stomping around like this Debito character doesn't resolve the issue, just widens the divide in a lot of ways, but there has to be a middle ground between that and turning a blind eye altogether because "hey, there's racism everywhere." If you believe human rights are fundamental, these things aren't cool anywhere

While I agree that racism exists in Japan, it's also unfortunate that presentation of the racial issues in Japan almost always is done in a 1-sided manner, whether it be Yasukuni Shrine, Zainichi issues, Ianfu issues, etc.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

These guys look like the Japanese version of southerners who still ride around with Confederate flags

You're 100% correct. The unfortunate part is that there are many, many politicians who privately feel the same way. Much of the same civilian power structure is in place from the imperial days - prime minister Junzo Koizumi's father was director general of the Japan Defense Agency and his grandfather a politician before him, both former nationalists. His successor Shinzo Abe's grandfather was a member of Tojo's cabinet. He got in trouble for saying that the taking of Korean comfort women during the war didn't happen and was "Korean revisionism."

 

[rykomatsu]

I love visiting Japan and really see it as someplace i could eventually live, what sort of job opportunities are there for westerners (minus "english teacher")

If you grew up in a western culture, the job opportunities might be rather rare. The reason being, the hierarchical structure in many Japanese companies is somewhat rigid and age based, rather than performance based. This IS starting to change gradually, however it causes some issues with employment. In particular if you're hitting the middle-ages of your life, it's difficult to find any new position that is outside of your educational/occupational training as there IS age discrimination.

ie. if i'm say....32, worked in the life sciences all my life and wanted to change careers to something different...say sales and marketting, the chances of finding a position would be extremely difficult as it would put me towards the bottom of the company hierarchy in terms of experience but the middle of the hierarchy in terms of age. This hasn't jived well traditionally, so it really depends on what your current occupation/training level/educational level is.

The easier way to find a job in Japan is to find a multinational company based in your home country that has positions in Japan, work there in your home country for a few years and let them know initially that you're interested in eventually working abroad, and then eventually get sent overseas. While competition can be rather aggressive, if you have the right skillset, cultural knowledge, and can speak their tongue, the chances of you being sent is very high....on the other hand, if that multinat has quite a few Japanese expats or what not, it might be difficult. You'll generally report to someone from your country or atleast someone who speaks the same native tongue as you so communications upwards is much easier. There's still the language barrier between yourself and those you might end up managing, but yeah...I know it doesn't answer your question but I hope it gives you some idea of what the job situation is like.

 

[rykomatsu]

You're 100% correct. The unfortunate part is that there are many, many politicians who privately feel the same way. Much of the same civilian power structure is in place from the imperial days - prime minister Junzo Koizumi's father was director general of the Japan Defense Agency and his grandfather a politician before him, both former nationalists. His successor Shinzo Abe's grandfather was a member of Tojo's cabinet. He got in trouble for saying that the taking of Korean comfort women during the war didn't happen and was "Korean revisionism."

Funny how you don't mention that a good chunk of "right wing fundamentalists" in Japan are actually Zainichi Koreans (last census in 2004 or 2005 I believe pegged it at ~30%) that are in there to actually embarass the right wing fundamentalist group so that they can push their left wing agenda forward.

 

[border]

So in Japan, do white people have to sit in the back of the bus? Do you get your own water fountains?

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

While I agree that racism exists in Japan, it's also unfortunate that presentation of the racial issues in Japan almost always is done in a 1-sided manner, whether it be Yasukuni Shrine, Zainichi issues, Ianfu issues, etc.

I agree - especially the Yasukuni thing. The trouble is that it's so tied up in both legitimate religious issue and people who want to rewrite the war. From the outside, people see it and think "oh my gosh, they're deifying war criminals, and the prime minister's going there to pray to them" - which is actually true. And there are a lot of pretty disgusting people tied up in the whole mess, as can be seen in the 遊就館 museum there, which is almost as bad as if there were a Nazi apologist museum at a war memorial in Berlin:

But at the same time, shinto doesn't only enshrine the good - there are jinja all over Kyoto to people who were right royal bastards, which were built as much to pacify vengeful spirits as to honour them. It also encompasses the notion that after death kami rise through the ranks so to speak on the basis of posthumous spiritual development. In other words, you can atone for being a jerk, and to not enshrine them is to deny them that chance. It also causes a sin for the descendants, for whom filial piety should take precedence over temporal political concerns.

The Zainichi thing is another sad history of systemic racism. But fortunately I think that recently South Korea and Japan have found themselves on the same side of many political issues, and the popularity of Korean pop culture means that many people see they have a lot in common with Koreans so hopefully that will go away. I know plenty of Japanese who are into Korean stuff the way GAFfers are into Japanese stuff :lol

Ianfu...I hope that debate's finally over. It's not fair that people in Japan today still get beat over the head with the war, and reparations have been made, but for a long time the truth just wasn't accepted. Hopefully the yutzes in the diet who made comments like it didn't happen have seen enough politicians raked over the coals for that one to clam up.

 

[rotaryspirit]

EDIT: In fact, thats part of why it bothers me when people try to sweep these these under the rug. There's this attitude like "oh, its their culture, who are we to interfere?" as if the Japanese are endemically racist and lack the same desires for universal human rights the rest of us do. That these things continue is part of the double edged sword that is 和　- things just get ignored because it's improper to bring them up most of the time, to the point that people who live their whole lives in Japan don't realize they're going on. I agree that stomping around like this Debito character doesn't resolve the issue, just widens the divide in a lot of ways, but there has to be a middle ground between that and turning a blind eye altogether because "hey, there's racism everywhere." If you believe human rights are fundamental, these things aren't cool anywhere

I'm not saying we should sweep this under the rug at all. What I've been stressing this entire time, over and over again, is that Debito's way of doing things is not the answer. The original poster was concerned about going to Japan due to Debito's ridiculous alarmist reactions to something that can be handled privately and discreetly, which will gradually change the minds of people. His reaction was exactly what I fear happening all over the world when people come across Debito's site and say, "Wow Japan must be really racist! What a backwards people!" It's wrong to fear monger in the same way it's wrong for Fox News to be still on the air in the same way it's wrong for those black trucks to go around and disrupt government official's workdays with their nationalist bullshit.

By the same token these things get ignored everywhere, in any country in the world. Anyone can be upset about this stuff but it takes a special type of person to call out Japan for its abuses and not recognize what is going on in their own country. That is what it winds up boiling down to for me - if I'm not doing anything to fix the racism in America, why should I really bother about what the Japanese are doing? I'll just shrug and say "It's their culture" - if they don't want to let me into the hostess or pink clubs, I'll just say "It's your loss of money!" I don't take it as something personal. It isn't me they aren't letting into the club, it's my skin color/ethnicity. As an individual I'll do my best to convince them otherwise, and if that doesn't work out - so be it.

Also, stop the presses - government officials are descendants of former government officials? That never happens in any country! The wealthy and powerful don't try their best to keep control of their wealth and power! NEVER!

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Funny how you don't mention that a good chunk of "right wing fundamentalists" in Japan are actually Zainichi Koreans (last census in 2004 or 2005 I believe pegged it at ~30%) that are in there to actually embarass the right wing fundamentalist group so that they can push their left wing agenda forward.

I didn't mention it because I have never heard this. Got a link?

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I'm not saying we should sweep this under the rug at all.

You say this, but then you say:

That is what it winds up boiling down to for me - if I'm not doing anything to fix the racism in America, why should I really bother about what the Japanese are doing? I'll just shrug and say "It's their culture" - if they don't want to let me into the hostess or pink clubs, I'll just say "It's your loss of money!"

Looking the other way and sweeping it under the rug are pretty much the same thing.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Honestly, I've been through quite a few neighborhoods much more squallid than the one in the picture. I was expecting a few shacks in the middle of nowhere from your initial description. Regardless of that, I am not going to deny that ethnic Koreans are discriminated against in Japan. It is definitely there. However, it is not really a one-sided thing either. I know quite a lot of zainichi Koreans and a lot of the older generation are very open with their anti-Japaneseness. I know one girl, who is now studying abroad in the United States, who said that she never had any Japanese friends until she came to America. She grew up thinking Japanese people were scary because her parents and her ethnic-school taught her in this manner.

I don't think anyone is trying to sweep the issue under the rug. It's just that the problem, as a whole, is not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be and the answer to the question in the OP is no. It is no more widespread than most other developed countries. It may be a bit more visible in certain situations, but I would argue that actual racist sentiment is less prominent in Japan society than it is an many western states.

And also, please do bring up what you wanted to say about Yasukuni. I would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I love visiting Japan and really see it as someplace i could eventually live, what sort of job opportunities are there for westerners (minus "english teacher")

Not a whole lot unless you have a lot of money where you can open up your own business, or you speak / read / write the language fluently and either have connections or valuable skills.

There are currently discussions going on in the Japanese Diet about proposals to take in a large amount of foreigners over the next 50 years to offset the shrinking population. Hopefully there will be some positive developments regarding this issue in the next few years and it will become easier for foreigners who really want to work in Japan to come over and stay.

 

[rykomatsu]

I didn't mention it because I have never heard this. Got a link?

Was in a mass media publication...I'll try to find a net source, however, if you do a search for political topics in Japan, there's a heavy bias towards blogs and forums and what not so it might take a bit to wade through them...blogs aren't exactly the most reliable of sources...and I'm tempted to say the same about wikipedia as well, though I think it's on there as well (uncited i think)