-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Japanese Devs Talk Revolution Controller
- Thread starter D3RANG3D
- Start date
Ok, but we haven´t yet hit that point. More power isn´t only graphics. Pikmin isn´t a showpiece because there´re 100 pikmins out there, but because they act individually, and enemies act individually, and there´s a degree of interaction, and IA working, and you can´t see, because everything is so seamless, and that´s power, dude. Of course, we´ll reach a point were devs won´t be able to squeeze out the power of a machine, because there´re time limitations, and bills to pay... but of course more power is always good.
Shikamaru Ninja said:
That is THE Best Case Scenario which I do hope happens but they don't have to challenge anyone. They could simply remain content in better graphical versions of their current portfolio and put them on PS3 and 360. For that best case scenario to happen Nintendo would need to somehow attain next-gens GTA (not literally but figuratively) that could only be done effectively using the Rev controller. If the casuals eat it up and the cost of development is cheap compared to PS3/360 then the 3rd party publishers will jump on board faster than you can say "free money".
Hmm. I think I've been approaching this thread from an entirely different point of view than you have. As the thread dealt with the Revolution and potential Western support for it, I've been viewing this as a Western console developer thread discussion. I haven't really been pondering PC development at all... and, well, do you need more than a single hand to count the good Western console RPGs?Amir0x said:
Well, I -was- attempting to be humorous... failing miserably, perhaps, but attempting. I suppose I automatically lumped the Western RPG comment into "KOTOR ROOLZ" because I've had the strangest experience of always having it thrust towards me as the "greatest console RPG". I didn't mean to imply that you were claiming that was the case, I merely thought it would be funny to point to KOTOR as (perhaps) the only example of a GOOD Western console RPG, and thus the shakiness of saying that RPGs are a strong Western genre on game consoles.AmirOx said:
Sorry. I wasn't taking into account home computers.
Speevy said:
:lol
Quality and popularity are not the same thing.
i.e.
The most brilliantly written piece of music can be outsold by a 'singing frog'. Does that mean the technically superior, professionally crafted piece of music is 'crap'?
Back to games, Western developed games, on a whole, are vastly inferior to japanese games in the areas of execution of ideas, polish, and coding. What makes western developed games so appealing is a combination of fresh nonstandard gameplay ideas and games centered around the same interests shared by other entertainment/media interests. i.e. War and sports.
This is the only scenario in which Nintendo can get major western support:
Nintendo develops incredible first party games (a la Mario 64) that lift the Rvltn to direct competition (sales-wise) with the PS2. Then, and only then, can I imagine major western support for the Rvltn. Western devs are not going to give a rat's whisker about Japanese sales.
That having been said, I'm not sure that's even a possibility. The PS3 has such incredible momentum behind it that it would take some sort of miracle game (and even games) to overcome it.
Nintendo develops incredible first party games (a la Mario 64) that lift the Rvltn to direct competition (sales-wise) with the PS2. Then, and only then, can I imagine major western support for the Rvltn. Western devs are not going to give a rat's whisker about Japanese sales.
That having been said, I'm not sure that's even a possibility. The PS3 has such incredible momentum behind it that it would take some sort of miracle game (and even games) to overcome it.
KOTOR is a damn fine game, and the highest rated RPG of this generation.
I'm not saying it's the best ever, or the best this generation, simply because I am not an authority on RPG's. I've played maybe 6 in the past 5 years. All I'm saying is that KOTOR is generally considered to be an outstanding game, and should be grouped with the best Western RPG's, no matter how jaded fans of those games happen to be.
I'm not saying it's the best ever, or the best this generation, simply because I am not an authority on RPG's. I've played maybe 6 in the past 5 years. All I'm saying is that KOTOR is generally considered to be an outstanding game, and should be grouped with the best Western RPG's, no matter how jaded fans of those games happen to be.
Mike Works
Member
mommy, all i really want for christmas this year is baseless promises from johnny nighttrainphantomile co. said:
Kon Tiki said:
"Western developed games .... are vastly inferior to western games"
I was going to write a nice little response, but I'm now really unsure as to what your point was. Are you trying to compare the West to the East? Are you lauding or cursing Western games for being focused on "war and sports"?
I need more sleep.
phantomile co. said:
How do you jump, strafe and shoot at the same time, while looking down at a 45 degree angle?
I'm guessing you use the wand for "mouselook" so you'd look down by pointing it down...and then the left analog pad for WASD-ish controls, jump would be on that left hand stick...and shoot would be on the right hand one?
It's way too cumbersome.
How can you guarentee some sort of accuracy with the wand?
What´s so cumbersome about it? Denying you´d aim better with your own hand aiming at the screen instead with any kind of other control is plain and simple nosense. Clicking left with an analog stick while pushing a button isn´t that hard either. probably Revo controller won´t work with all the genres, but stop doing damage to yourself, if there´s a genre where it will work, it´s FPS´.Fight for Freeform said:
Ya, sorry I was preoccupied.
I love my RTS, simulation games, sports games and FPS. I have nothing against western developed games, I do not even like to caterogize then as such. However, one can not say Western developed games are on the same level as Japanes games, at least on a technical level.
I love my RTS, simulation games, sports games and FPS. I have nothing against western developed games, I do not even like to caterogize then as such. However, one can not say Western developed games are on the same level as Japanes games, at least on a technical level.
krypt0nian
Banned
God's Hand said:
See it here, folks! Fanboy + good news = hyperbole at its finest.
One time only!
Mihail said:
Well, the game industry is forever evolving and hasn't yet rested into a "norm" so to speak. The highest selling game last gen wasn't even in the same genre as the highest selling game this gen. Next gen who knows? 3 Generations of 3D games using the same fundamental ideas just with better graphics and framerate will take a toll on its audience (I am well aware of inventive games like Katamri and how important AI evolution is but these advances account for a very small percentage of games). We have no idea what will be the "next big thing". It very well could be the next GTA, Halo or Gran Turismo but I think it has just as good of a chance to be something entirely new and completely different from current realized genres.
Kon Tiki said:
I'm trying to figure out a response to this that doesn't make me sound like an asshole, and words escape me.
Suffice it to say that I think you're wrong.
Western developers are no less capable in those areas than Japanese developers are in creating properly lit/shadowed characters and worlds. And by that I mean, they are, but it doesn't always show. (See: The PS2 games I've played like Dark Cloud 2, Namco RPG's like the Tales series, Dynasty Warriors games, much of the licensed crud that's released in Japan)
Kon Tiki said:
Take two:
1) It seems like I've often heard that Japanese coders are supposed to be much worse when it comes to coding than their Western counterparts... that's in reference to the actual coding and programming itself, rather than the results the program provides.
2) The Western market is currently home to "fresh, nonstandard gameplay ideas"? To be honest, I think Japanese developers come up with fresh/nonstandard gameplay ideas more often than the Allies do.
3) What do you mean by "execution of ideas"? How are they supposedly inferior to Japanese titles?
4) I saw "war and sports" and cringed.
Fight for Freeform said:
eh, read the impressions. Plenty of people played with the wand.
GaimeGuy said:
...
Is this a joke? He never predicted anything specific. Anybody who keeps up with nintendo's latest info (rumors, interviews, etc...) would be able to predict the stuff nightrain did.
Speevy said:
I still think there's a difference in corporate culture between the BIG Western and Eastern companies. EA/Activision/Vivendi versus Nintendo/squareEnix/Konami/Capcom... more and more major western houses see their development teams as cogs, and the teams end up being directed into producing generic games. Japanese companies seemingly tend to keep the "team spirit" of the production team in as much as they trust the development teams to be a bit less generic.
Can I prove any of this? Probably not. I do think that the reasons people like Japanese titles and the reasons Westerners often tend to like games produced by a smaller development house (or such a house owned by a large entity, yet still allowed independence) more than the GAMES-BY-SUITS approach of certain major companies.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Fight for Freeform said:
it would work very well. its been dissected to death in other threads, and there have been hands on impressions with the metroid prime demo.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Redbeard said:
because it gives you the same degree of control as a mouse. and the mouse/kb combo is widely considered the best way of controlling fps games.
Redbeard said:
So did plenty of other people at the TGS event before they got a hold of it. No one here can explain it to you if you don't understand how the controller functions. You will simply have to wait until a kiosk becomes available before you can concieve how the nunchuck could be superior to the dual analog setup. I can easily see it being more proficient than the dual-analog but one hands-on impression even said it was superior to mouse and keyboard which I have a hard time excepting until I use it myself.
imastalker co.
Banned
narbo.Fight for Freeform said:
Mike Works said:
It took eastern developers a little time to get their hands around the DS, while westerners are now getting there. I don't think they'll be needing this much time for the Revolution. I see a lot of the ideas that developers have been planning/doing on the DS being quickly translated to the Revolution. While many of the more imaginitive developers will be thinking of even more imaginitive things.
EA, Ubisoft, Activision, and THQ will all be supporting the Revolution. Does anyone think that Tony Hawk, Tom Clancy, or Madden won't appear on that system? Nobody should be looking at these groups to push the new features, but their games will still be popular. They'll find some ways to incorporate them though. Where the GCN was lacking of western support was from PC developers, with the mouse-like function of the new controller, it should attract more interest from this group.
EA, Ubisoft, Activision, and THQ will all be supporting the Revolution. Does anyone think that Tony Hawk, Tom Clancy, or Madden won't appear on that system? Nobody should be looking at these groups to push the new features, but their games will still be popular. They'll find some ways to incorporate them though. Where the GCN was lacking of western support was from PC developers, with the mouse-like function of the new controller, it should attract more interest from this group.
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
I'm really have a hard time seeing how the Rev pointer will be better than an anolog stick for 3D adventure/platformers as well. Luckily, theres the nunchaku add on, but I'm weary of that as well. I've been playing Perfect Dark and Sin and Punishment on N64 with dual wielded controls to try and get an idea for it and it is more acurate, but awkward at the same time. It's like you're sacrificing one thing for another. 2D is another story and it will work great if it was turned sideways. Imagine you're playing Castlevania and a Medusa head turns you to stone and you have to shake your controller to break free. Little things like that are where the Rev controller will have it's advantage.Redbeard said:
quadriplegicjon said:
I doubt it. What happens when you're spinning your character around and you reach the end of the range of motion? With a mouse you lift it up and recenter, you have perfect precision all the time. With the Rev remote? It's the same as an analog stick, at a certain point it will have to just accelerate the point of view around, which is no more precise. Even the DS's stylus would seem closer to a mouse.
Ark-AMN said:
They all aren't going that route, but it is a natural evolution. The fact that its tasks are currently uninteresting to many people is just another step, just as the first RPG's had few customization options. One day an Oblivion-sized highly detailed world will be inhabited by highly detailed characters that trade, fight, talk, procreate, play golf as deep as Tiger Woods, then have a fishing tournament.
Stories aren't required for a game to be an RPG. Just role-playing and character-building.
MadOdorMachine said:
WTF!?
How is that FUN? What if makes you tap A instead of shaking the controller? There's no difference. Both are actions to break free - you're playing a game here and what matters is what you're doing on screen.
Controllers just help you get those actions done.
You're playing a game not a controller.
MadOdorMachine said:
Little things like that will keep whatever game that's using it away from my rev.
imastalker co.
Banned
well, they can just set it up so that the controller itself is in control of "looking", while the sensor in front can act as a light gun if you will.Redbeard said:
I think you are giving them too much credit. There are those designers who strive to be visionaries but now more than ever we have designers who want nothing more than a pay check. Having said that I be a lot of developers have no idea how to make the Rev con work fluidly with 3D platformers and very few of them would rack their brains to do so. But like I said of they are shown how to do it correctly by a more talented developer and it takes off like wildfire then they do an average cut and paste job to fatten their pockets.monkeyrun said:
This is why I'm really skeptical about how much of an impact the Rev's controller will even have. I mean, how many innovative DS games, be it from Japanese or Western devs, are there, really? A handful at most. Most games are simply using the stylus as a means of control simply because they can, not to do so in new and previously unheard of ways, or because the design of the title demands it.yoopoo said:
The DS is succeeding right now because it has a nice amount of quality titles on it, NOT because of the stylus or the dual screen IMO. Keep the same games on the system, but remove those two 'features' and revert the control styles back to the traditional sense, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the sales numbers stayed exactly the same.
Look at the recent DS announcements as well. The majority of the titles being announced aren't being developed on the DS because they specifically need to use the stylus or the dual screen, they're being dev'd on the system because it has the highest userbase right now. I fully believe developers understand that these new control methods Nintendo is testing out are neither a step forward or a step back, but merely a step sideways. As with the traditional control stick method, there are cons that come along with the pros.
I'm sure many of these developers would love to try out deving on the Rev to play around with the controller, but the fact remains they are fully aware their titles will likely not sell well or at all, and that development on the Rev, initially at least, is a much larger risk than they might be comfortable taking.
Why are people even comparing JRPGs and WRPGs? They're not at all similar. Maybe in the sense that their aim is to engage players into a dynamic world, but that's it. It's like comparing Final Fantasy Tactics with Starcraft. They're both called "strategy" games, but they're so dissimilar, and have such dissimilar goals, that it's absurd to debate about which is better within the specific genre. The point is, is that JRPGs and WRPGs really represent completely different genres and debating on which is better is like debating on whether Platformers are better than FPSs, and vice versa.
Redbeard said:
Geebus Kryyst not again. The Wand can act like a VIRTUAL ANALOG stick but with the precision of a mouse. Can you even see how that works? Move your wrist slightly to the right and your character slowly turns right continuously. The more you move your wrist whatever direction the faster your character turns. Its like the best of both worlds of an analog stick and mouse. This is just one of the MANY ways the Rev controller can function in a game application. It can effectively be a light-gun, 2d/3D Mouse, Lazer Pointer, Gyro-controller, analog-stick and motion capture. It is essentially the most versatile control device ever made for gaming.
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
Do you have some ideas to suggest? I didn't say it won't work, I'm just saying I've never used the controller, so I don't know how much more of a benefit it will add from an analog stick. The idea that the pointer is attached to the nunchaku and it has less buttons limits it's functionality. I have lot's of ideas for just the pointer being used for a controller, but then you have the issue of 3D camera control.monkeyrun said:
Here's my idea for a Splinter Cell game:
The main gameplay requires you to hold the controller sideways. Imagine holding a flat, square pan of water. The slower you tip the pan forward the closer the water gets to the edge and thus the slower Sam Fisher would walk. Tip it all the way forward and the water would pour out and Sam would run at full speed.
Picking locks would be lots of fun as you could point the controller at the screen and jiggle it to unlock the door.
Sniping would have you pointing the controller at the screen as well.
Now comes the problem of holding the gun and aiming while you're walking. That's where I'm having the trouble figuring out how the controller could be used.
imastalker co.
Banned
whoever it is that said that's why you're not a game designer, just rested his case.... i mean, case closed. ; )MadOdorMachine said:
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
Well then enlighten me. Seriously, how do you imagine it will work? These are just ideas.phantomile co. said:
Edit - Sorry Johnny, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Either way, I'd love to hear your input.