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[TheLegend]

Kanji is the only real difficult thing about Japanese. Take it from someone who got grades > 20 on Italian tests in high school, european languages are really hard, with Japanese being extremely easy in comparison, except for the Kanji, but you can learn that seperate from the language itself, save it for last, or as has been said, skip it altogether if you only want to speak, or can get by with the kana.

I think it really depends on the person. I took Spanish in high school and found everything extremely intuitive. It was a little weird at first to learn conjugations for each subject (I talk, you talk, he talks -> yo hablo, tu hablas, el habla, etc) but once you learn the basic structure everything fits into place and you can conjugate pretty much any verb. Even irregular verbs tend to have patterns that you pick up on. Now I'm taking Italian in college and loving it... and I'm picking up Portuguese from my friend (which looks just like Spanish when written but sounds completely different when spoken... crazy Portuguese).

Oh and whoever complained about subjunctive... it's really not that bad.

Anyway.... I'm trying to learn Japanese from my friend and it's just not clicking at all. It's like whoever created it did everything possible to make it the most nonsensical language ever.

 

[john tv]

KURUMA TABEMASU KA
HAI TABEMASU

 

[Blackace]

KURUMA TABEMASU KA
HAI TABEMASU

kurama taberu gotoga arimasuka

hai arimasu!!

aru ftw!

 

[Blackace]

I think it really depends on the person. I took Spanish in high school and found everything extremely intuitive. It was a little weird at first to learn conjugations for each subject (I talk, you talk, he talks -> yo hablo, tu hablas, el habla, etc) but once you learn the basic structure everything fits into place and you can conjugate pretty much any verb. Even irregular verbs tend to have patterns that you pick up on. Now I'm taking Italian in college and loving it... and I'm picking up Portuguese from my friend (which looks just like Spanish when written but sounds completely different when spoken... crazy Portuguese).

Oh and whoever complained about subjunctive... it's really not that bad.

Anyway.... I'm trying to learn Japanese from my friend and it's just not clicking at all. It's like whoever created it did everything possible to make it the most nonsensical language ever.

looks like 13th warrior lied to us about how real life works!

 

[armubaba]

I took both, and sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. As a native English speaker, Spanish always struck me as much easier than Japanese. Not only are the words themselves much closer to their English counterparts in meaning and sound, but the sentence structure isn't radically different like that of Japanese.

Plus, no fucking Kanji. :lol

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

No way. At least not for a native english speaker.

The state department says Japanese is the hardest language an American can learn...takes like 88 weeks of 40 hours per week training to be considered "fluent".

Harder than Cantonese? Really...?

 

[Shouta]

Anyway.... I'm trying to learn Japanese from my friend and it's just not clicking at all. It's like whoever created it did everything possible to make it the most nonsensical language ever.

I see...

 

[USD]

I do like kanji a lot though. The great thing is having a pretty good shot at figuring out the meaning of a word, even without prior exposure (assuming you know the individual kanji that make up the word, of course). It feels really good figuring it out on your own. Of course there are also cases where I'll know the meaning of the word, but not how to say it (fucking different readings).

 

[Brofist]

I was a low-A and B student in Spanish. I didn't get it. SInce I became a Japanese student for serious learning, I have never got anything below 100 percent on anything. I do agree, you can reason most words in Spanish. In Japanese, you have to memorize a lot more. Also, Kanji is the least practical writing system ever.

(note: My name is Spanish)

I don't think that has as much to do with ease of language as it does with interest level and class difficulty level. I had average grades in French class in high school, but did very well in the Japanese class I took at university. The university Japanese class was a joke though, the pace was very slow. It was tailored to allow people to stay interested by being able to do well, even though they were learning very little.



Also for those that don't like the kanji aspect of Japanese, why even bother learning it. It's one of the things that adds to it's uniqueness.

 

[Blackace]

Also for those that don't like the kanji aspect of Japanese, why even bother learning it. It's one of the things that adds to it's uniqueness.

Liking kanji doesn't make it any easier to learn

 

[spielcaster]

I don't know about spanish, but I've tried other European languages, and I found Japanese much easier to learn than all of them. After about 4 semesters of Japanese, I was able to hold reasonable conversations with native Japanese speakers (which was useful, as I later had a japanese girlfriend for a brief time).

 

[Blackace]

I don't know about spanish, but I've tried other European languages, and I found Japanese much easier to learn than all of them. After about 4 semesters of Japanese, I was able to hold reasonable conversations with native Japanese speakers (which was useful, as I later had a japanese girlfriend for a brief time).

hmmm I am not trying to be a dick, really I am not. But, this kind of seems like BS. Maybe it did stick and all that. but just because a Japanese person says "WOW your JAPANESE is SOOOOO GOOD!" doesn't make it true. But if you were have full conversations more power to you. Because after my 4 semesters of Japanese I moved to Japan and just had a base to build upon..

 

[Brofist]

Liking kanji doesn't make it any easier to learn

heh this I know In fact the real dislike should come in after you have studied kanji enough to take the 1kyu level test, not at the time you are just opening up level 1 of Minna no nihongo.

But no one makes anyone learn a language at gunpoint, and Japanese is definitely not a language needed by anyone to learn as a second language, unless they have very specific goals.

 

[Blackace]

heh this I know In fact the real dislike should come in after you have studied kanji enough to take the 1kyu level test, not at the time you are just opening up level 1 of Minna no nihongo.

But no one makes anyone learn a language at gunpoint, and Japanese is definitely not a language needed by anyone to learn as a second language, unless they have very specific goals.

There are a lot of people who get turned off by the kanji, like the people in the thread were saying. I like kanji, and love it when they stick. But they are damn hard to learn from the age I started studying.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Blackace now knows that's a lie but he just doesn't want to trust in the method.

 

[Y2Kev]

I took both, and sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. As a native English speaker, Spanish always struck me as much easier than Japanese. Not only are the words themselves much closer to their English counterparts in meaning and sound, but the sentence structure isn't radically different like that of Japanese.

Plus, no fucking Kanji. :lol

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.



Harder than Cantonese? Really...?

They are in the same difficulty tier, but Japanese is "starred." It's the grammatical structure (different from English).

 

[Hootie]

 

[vas_a_morir]

Guys, I love Kanji. I think it's a great art form.

HOWEVER, it isn't PRACTICAL. Nobody on Earth can argue it is.

 

[zoku88]

Guys, I love Kanji. I think it's a great art form.

HOWEVER, it isn't PRACTICAL. Nobody on Earth can argue it is.

If you look at it from a compression point of view, it's easy to convey certain ideas/actions with a little amount of characters.

 

[vas_a_morir]

If you look at it from a compression point of view, it's easy to convey certain ideas/actions with a little amount of characters.

And a painting is worth 1000 words. But, we don't draw pictures as a substitute to writing with text. That's caveman shit. Kanji is still not practical.

 

[zoku88]

And a painting is worth 1000 words. But, we don't draw pictures as a substitute to writing with text. That's caveman shit. Kanji is still not practical.

I don't see why you think it's impractical...

 

[vas_a_morir]

I don't see why you think it's impractical...

You can't defend this shit, weeaboo. Explain to me how arbitrary pictures representing meanings is more practical than a phonetic writing system.

 

[PROOP]

desu is more like, "it is" in english while arimasu is something about existence. I have a hard time putting a translation w/o example

Uhm

Muzukashi desu ka. (Is it difficult?)

There's no way you could put arimasu in that sentence.

Actually there is although its really only used in written form .

"muzukashi de arimasuka?"

 

[PROOP]

You can't defend this shit, weeaboo. Explain to me how arbitrary pictures representing meanings is more practical than a phonetic writing system.

you are completely correct, but for the purpose of the japanese language, how the kanji relates to the words, as well as how they write (no spaces, mix of three alphabets), it's become an unfortunate neccessity. They are not completely arbitrary either once you understand the radicals, for instance the kanji for listen 聞 is a combination of gate and ear, thus 'you hear things through your ear gate'.

 

[zoku88]

Actually there is although its really only used in written form .

"muzukashi de arimasuka?"

Huh, I didn't think you could do that. I haven't learned to use de in that way.

You can't defend this shit, weeaboo. Explain to me how arbitrary pictures representing meanings is more practical than a phonetic writing system.

I already said it. It's more compressed. Less characters for the same idea(s)

Sure, it's difficult to learn, but that doesn't mean the kanji itself is impractical...

And please don't resort to name calling. I'm looking at it from an information theory standpoint.

EDIT: do you think morse code is impractical? The seemingly arbitrary sequence of dot sounds (even though the lengths arent quite arbitrary.)

 

[Zoe]

Huh, I didn't think you could do that. I haven't learned to use de in that way.

It's only for formal writing like what you would see in a newspaper article.

 

[RevenantKioku]

You can't defend this shit, weeaboo. Explain to me how arbitrary pictures representing meanings is more practical than a phonetic writing system.

So would you say that the only reason kanji still exist is Japanese pride?

 

[zoku88]

It's only for formal writing like what you would see in a newspaper article.

Could you give me a literal translation? I'm kinda confused by the structure XD

 

[PROOP]

So would you say that the only reason kanji still exist is Japanese pride?

That definitely has a lot to do with it. For one, I know Taiwanese people look down on the Chinese for their simplified kanji set (amung others) now even if it did send China's literacy rates to heaven.

 

[Brofist]

You can't defend this shit, weeaboo. Explain to me how arbitrary pictures representing meanings is more practical than a phonetic writing system.

Kind of an ass response from someone who had enough interest to take Japanese and has an avatar with kana in it to look cool

 

[PROOP]

Could you give me a literal translation? I'm kinda confused by the structure XD

it's simple. desu turns into de aru, which then turns into de arimasu. if you want to make it even more formal (ala son-keigo), it turns into de gozaimasu. again, this is written form only.

 

[Askia47]

So would you say that the only reason kanji still exist is Japanese pride?

That can also be expanded to Korean and Chinese. Its harder for sure, but I don't think its worthless.

 

[Zoe]

You can't defend this shit, weeaboo. Explain to me how arbitrary pictures representing meanings is more practical than a phonetic writing system.

The systems aren't meant to be compared. Studies have shown that Japanese access different parts of their brain when reading kanji compared to Americans reading roman letters. There's more going on when you process kanji.

(supposedly this allows them to read pretty fast, but I don't know anybody to support that claim)

 

[Zoe]

it's simple. desu turns into de aru, which then turns into de arimasu. if you want to make it even more formal (ala son-keigo), it turns into de gozaimasu. again, this is written form only.

"De gozaru" can be spoken though.

 

[Blackace]

So would you say that the only reason kanji still exist is Japanese pride?

well in Japan that is almost a true statement. Just ask GHQ what their plans were Japanese and kanji..

 

[vas_a_morir]

Kind of an ass response from someone who had enough interest to take Japanese and has an avatar with kana in it to look cool

We know our own. I was kinda ribbing rather than trying to make him feel bad. Like, I don't know if this guy is a japanophile or not, but it would be funny if somebody believed they had to defend kanji because they love Japan so much.

Yeah, I actually had regrets typing it, but I figured everyone would realize that I am a total japanonerd myself, and get the joke, so I left it in.

 

[zoku88]

it's simple. desu turns into de aru, which then turns into de arimasu. if you want to make it even more formal (ala son-keigo), it turns into de gozaimasu. again, this is written form only.

Ah, that's where the problem was. I have no idea what aru is. I guess I haven't learned it yet

The systems aren't meant to be compared. Studies have shown that Japanese access different parts of their brain when reading kanji compared to Americans reading roman letters. There's more going on when you process kanji.

(supposedly this allows them to read pretty fast, but I don't know anybody to support that claim)

From what my Jpn sensei tells me, it kinda allows them to not read the whole sentence (prolly in the same way English speakers don't read whole sentences/words)

We know our own. I was kinda ribbing rather than trying to make him feel bad. Like, I don't know if this guy is a japanophile or not, but it would be funny if somebody believed they had to defend kanji because they love Japan so much.

Yeah, I actually had regrets typing it, but I figured everyone would realize that I am a total japanonerd myself, and get the joke, so I left it in.

Actually, I defended kanji because I really like kanji itself (soo pretty) and because it reminds me of compression schemes.

There's no harm done.

EDIT: Although you're right about me liking jpn stuff (it was the avatar, wasn't it? Gets me everytime.) Don't think I'd ever go there. And if I did, I'd just shop the whole time XD

 

[PROOP]

"De gozaru" can be spoken though.

yea, if you lived in 18th century Japan, or your name is Rurouni Kenshin, then sure. Nowadays you would only get funny looks. The only way to use that form today is to make it polite by ending with ~masu, otherwise you would be sending a very mixed signal by using son keigo with an unpolite ending.


edit: zoku, for real? aru is the short form of arimasu, aka, to be (in existance).

 

[Zoe]

yea, if you lived in 18th century Japan, or your name is Rurouni Kenshin, then sure. Nowadays you would only get funny looks. The only way to use that form today is to make it polite by ending with ~masu, otherwise you would be sending a very mixed signal by using son keigo with an unpolite ending.

Oh, well yeah. I just wrote out the "aru" ending cause that's the most basic form.

 

[vas_a_morir]

What sucks is I was going to change my avatar back to the colored box, but now that guy called me out on it, I gotta keep it for a while longer.

 

[zoku88]

edit: zoku, for real? aru is the short form of arimasu, aka, to be (in existance).

Hmm, really? Like, the gerund forms (-te?) or is it something else.

I'm a beginning student, btw. I guess I didn't even make it clear in this thread (i did in the other jpn thread tho >.> )

 

[Zoe]

Hmm, really? Like, the gerund forms (-te?) or is it something else.

I'm a beginning student, btw. I guess I didn't even make it clear in this thread (i did in the other jpn thread tho >.> )

No... it's the plain form without any conjugation.

Here's a preview if you want to get ahead of yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Verbs

 

[zoku88]

No... it's the plain form without any conjugation.

Here's a preview if you want to get ahead of yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Verbs

Haha, I just looked at the next chapter of the book and lo and behold, what do I see but this stuff? :lol

 

[RevenantKioku]

well in Japan that is almost a true statement. Just ask GHQ what their plans were Japanese and kanji..

I don't know what GHQ is?
I'm not saying pride isn't a part of it. But the language did evolve to where it is today and it does work. Where it goes from here I can't say. But what I can say is how frightening it is that kanji are starting to make sense in a way to me that I just cannot explain.

Anyway, kanji aren't impossible. They just take lots of effort and thereby time. If you don't want to spend the time for whatever reason you have, as valid as it may be, that doesn't change much.
(I wanted to say 'hard' and not 'impossible' but people get bitchy when I do that. )

edit: zoku, for real? aru is the short form of arimasu, aka, to be (in existence).

Shit dude. It wasn't until my fifth Japanese class that they introduced dictionary form. Why they avoid teaching it I don't know, but they sure do!

 

[Hitokage]

Languages aren't made to be completely practical. Otherwise, english wouldn't exist.

 

[Blackace]

I don't know what GHQ is?


Shit dude. It wasn't until my fifth Japanese class that they introduced dictionary form. Why they avoid teaching it I don't know, but they sure do!

It is where MacArthur lived..


Also you have to start somewhere. They don't teach kids past tense in English until like the last two months of the first grade in JHS

 

[PROOP]

Shit dude. It wasn't until my fifth Japanese class that they introduced dictionary form. Why they avoid teaching it I don't know, but they sure do!

Wow, really? My teachers never officially taught it to me until my 3rd class, but the verbs were always listed in dictionary form either as る or う verbs. All it took was spending a little time with the Japanese exchange students in my school to realize that dictionary form is pretty standard for normal conversations.

ps. I hear you are thinking of coming to fukuoka for golden week. make it happen.

ninja edit;

Languages aren't made to be completely practical. Otherwise, english wouldn't exist.

zing :lol

 

[RevenantKioku]

It is where MacArthur lived..

Not helping. I hated history class.

Also you have to start somewhere. They don't teach kids past tense in English until like the last two months of the first grade in JHS

Sorry, I should have said "for so long." I was taught a lot of conjugation before dictionary form was introduced and thereby a lot of confusing rules were used that really never made sense until dictionary form was shown to me.

ps. I hear you are thinking of coming to fukuoka for golden week. make it happen.

This is most likely a truth.

 

[Hitokage]

Sorry, I should have said "for so long." I was taught a lot of conjugation before dictionary form was introduced and thereby a lot of confusing rules were used that really never made sense until dictionary form was shown to me.

Like hanashimasu -> hanasemasu before hanasu -> hanaseru?

 

[Blackace]

Not helping. I hated history class.

:lol General HeadQuarters

where MacArthur ruled Japan like a king... and one of the plans was to make Japanese go away..

 

[Blackace]

Like hanashimasu -> hanasemasu before hanasu -> hanaseru?

they tend to teach polite form of Japanese first.