It seems like they never liked him to begin with. I think the people criticizing Jaxel for "wanting something out of it," are missing the point. He wanted "compensation" and felt he didn't get what he was owed most of the time. His problem was he kept being a volunteer for too long, and didn't put his foot down soon enough for the TOs he disparages to take him seriously. Why pay Jaxel when he keeps doing free work and doesn't have a contract with you?
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Jaxel- On the big Tournament Organizers in the Fighting Game Community
- Thread starter A Pretty Panda
- Start date
It seems like they never liked him to begin with. I think the people criticizing Jaxel for "wanting something out of it," are missing the point. He wanted "compensation" and felt he didn't get what he was owed most of the time. His problem was he kept being a volunteer for too long, and didn't put his foot down soon enough for the TOs he disparages to take him seriously. Why pay Jaxel when he keeps doing free work and doesn't have a contract with you?
ok, I see what you mean. To be fair, on gaf it's kind of always like that--even when stuff is clarified, people come in 10 pages later and say random, wrong stuff. The bloat presented around the actual issue is not helping either. I don't want to sound like I'm one side or the other, but presentation is really important in these kinds of things and this thread is a bit slapdash.
That's because its hard to discuss things that are unsubstantiated like the feud between Jaxel and Big E. We can talk about tournament earnings because that is something we can get multiple views on but the whole streaming issue is really something that you need more eye witnesses to substantiate it... as in some neutral person not Jaxel or Big E to weigh in.
DaRabidDuckie
Junior Member
Big E just chimed in on Facebook with an excellent point:
https://www.facebook.com/2BigE3/posts/10151472109355778
https://www.facebook.com/2BigE3/posts/10151472109355778
Shouta
Member
Yep. Pretty stupid of him to do so and I hope he realizes that now.
You're right, it seems he wanted "compensation" whether that be a payday or at least to be respected, as far as I can tell. He didn't get either and got fed up. No one seems to want to touch that stuff.
That's not really much chiming in though. =/
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
My main interest in all this is seeing the idea of TO's blacklisting people getting addressed. I think collusion on that level is extremely problematic for something that's supposed to be "grass roots"
Since one of the things that caused me to become disinterested in the "FGC" was the feeling that it was being run by a circle of friends all trying to make money off of me under the premise that they were doing me a favor.
So I'm interested in seeing this brought to light. Regardless of your feelings about the guy, he does good work and does it publically so there's proof of that. So the idea that he, or anyone could be blacklisted behind the scenes just seems problematic. A group that potentially pushes out a guy that does good work for the community can't be possibly have the interests of the community as the top priority.
Since one of the things that caused me to become disinterested in the "FGC" was the feeling that it was being run by a circle of friends all trying to make money off of me under the premise that they were doing me a favor.
So I'm interested in seeing this brought to light. Regardless of your feelings about the guy, he does good work and does it publically so there's proof of that. So the idea that he, or anyone could be blacklisted behind the scenes just seems problematic. A group that potentially pushes out a guy that does good work for the community can't be possibly have the interests of the community as the top priority.
BillyBones
Neo Member
Earlier in this thread there are links to both Sweet Johnny Cage (ECT) and Rolando (VxG) stating straight out on twitter that he was never blacklisted.
https://twitter.com/SJCage/status/348944315348819968
https://twitter.com/thevideoxgames/status/348930240803926017
Jaxel wasn't at ECT because they didn't have room for him, which anyone who was at ECT can vouch for (they REALLY need a bigger venue next year.) Remember they already had Spooky for the main stream, Deadly Bison (which streams all the Long Island activity so kind of has to be there,) Kombat Network (which brings it's own audience and gets the tournament more exposure) and Bibiquadium. (Yo, anime?) There wasn't room to sit down at ECT 5, let alone a fifth stream station.
Rolando has still invited Jaxel to stream at VxG, but the streaming duties at the event have changed now that Capcom Fighters is involved.
Shouta
Member
There are things that can be cleared up though. I mentioned the ECT thing that can easily be done without much drama but yet, here we are. Other things can be also be discussed without letting private information out. It's the refusal to talk about anything that's kind of frustrating.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah I saw that and was a bit skeptical of it.
Jaxel acknowledged that he understood losing the Capcom fighters in his original statement. I don't think he would have reacted the same way(career suicide within the FGC) if it was just that. That doesn't make any sense to me considering the other stuff he put up with
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Obviously VxG isn't going to admit to the accusations or even address them. It's absolutely not in their interests to do so.
So that doesn't really refute Jaxel's claim there to me.
Sweet Johnny Cage's tweet I feel is pretty honest though. I'll concede that. He acknowledged that it was a literal issue of space in his own words
What I'm most shocked about is that no one on the sidelines is saying anything about it. You have a bunch of people screaming from the top of their lungs on twitter that he has the payouts wrong and how much TO's make, but not that there's absolutely no way that Jaxel was blacklisted as that's not something that happens in the scene.
It just seems like no one is willing to touch the issue and, without reading too much into silences that's really discouraging to me.
This. Also Big E's post adds/states nothing.
call_kotaku
Member
Jaxel's way of framing the whole thing as some sort of FGC disease is what muddies the waters for everyone, because if you just present the facts, it's that he's had several instances where he felt slighted by important members of the community, yet when he presents it as some sort of Alex Jones rant he indirectly insinuates that:
And of all that only the final point can be definitively proven one way or the other, and if you just lay out the sequence of events without a personal narrative the only thing the majority of people would take away from it is that Jaxel probably should negotiate better. By getting the first word on this he created a conversation where if a TO doesn't provide evidence that he is not earning money, it somehow validates Jaxel's victimization which is pretty absurd.
- Hundreds of people colluded to pocket the community's money for over a decade
- Not negotiating for a fee and then not getting the amount you wanted afterwards means people are conspiring against you
- People not wanting to work with Jaxel after public drama is evidence of a conspiracy
- Jaxel is the only streamer that consistently alienates himself from large parts of the community because he's the only one who can speak his mind
- Nobody else in the community can speak their minds
- Dozens of community leaders are actively conspiring to make sure Jaxel doesn't get what he wants
- MLG runs better fighting game tournaments
- Mr.Wizard is a dick
And of all that only the final point can be definitively proven one way or the other, and if you just lay out the sequence of events without a personal narrative the only thing the majority of people would take away from it is that Jaxel probably should negotiate better. By getting the first word on this he created a conversation where if a TO doesn't provide evidence that he is not earning money, it somehow validates Jaxel's victimization which is pretty absurd.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't draw even half of your conclusions from what I read.
This conversation is going to go nowhere if we don't stop the finger pointing, but I'm not sure some people have it in them to do so....
First of all, I actually have no problem with people making money running tournaments. People have to get paid, they do work, they should get paid. My problem is that they sabotage their own constituents in order to pursue their own interests; the prime example I gave was that of MLG. Rather than allow MLG to at least try their hand, they did everything they could to prevent it; because it was in their best interests to do so, even if its not in the best interests of the community. I never accused anyone of pocketing money from tournament fees or skimming off of tournament fees (except for DancingFighterG in 2009)
Also, I have nothing against VxG. I've been a big supporter of VxG and will continue to be one. VxG did what they felt was necessary based on the information which was given to them. I also appreciate the offer that Rolando made for me after all this behind-closed-doors stuff happened, and he tried to do right by me; and I love him for that. However, what he offered me, which I can not get into, was not a sustainable opportunity, and was the difference between me making money for service rendered, or me paying out of my own pocket for the "oppurtunity" to stream at VxG for free.
On the ECT stuff, maybe what SweetJohnnyCage said was true; and it was simply a physical constraint. However, in my eyes, with had happened between me and BigE the week before, and the partnership between them with The Fall Classic, the timing seemed less than coincidental. But for now, I'm going to take him for his word and say right now that I apologize for bringing ECT and his name into this discussion.
As for BigE... I never asked to get paid for streaming NEC/WB/SJ/BB. I was doing those for free to support the community. My problem with BigE is not that he wasn't paying me, as I never expected to get paid in the first place. My problem with him is that when he fucked up, he threw me under the bus to protect his own reputation. Potentially ruining my relationship with Namco and the Tekken community. The sad part is, I've seen him do this to others as well. When a TO makes a decision (and usually the right decision from what I've seen), he shows up and reverses their decision; then later on I see him laying the blame on that TO for fucking up.
As for what Renegade said about me not streaming what I should have been streaming in the first place... I refer you to what I said before, I WAS GIVEN NO SCHEDULES. On Sunday, why did I stream Windjammers? Because I had a FOUR HOUR open block on my stream with nothing to put on it. Why? Because the schedule was terrible. When I asked if there was any Tekken to stream, I was told it was being saved for the main stage. So I had nothing to stream; I was told to stream whatever I wanted. So we had a Windjammers tournament.
Also, I have nothing against VxG. I've been a big supporter of VxG and will continue to be one. VxG did what they felt was necessary based on the information which was given to them. I also appreciate the offer that Rolando made for me after all this behind-closed-doors stuff happened, and he tried to do right by me; and I love him for that. However, what he offered me, which I can not get into, was not a sustainable opportunity, and was the difference between me making money for service rendered, or me paying out of my own pocket for the "oppurtunity" to stream at VxG for free.
On the ECT stuff, maybe what SweetJohnnyCage said was true; and it was simply a physical constraint. However, in my eyes, with had happened between me and BigE the week before, and the partnership between them with The Fall Classic, the timing seemed less than coincidental. But for now, I'm going to take him for his word and say right now that I apologize for bringing ECT and his name into this discussion.
As for BigE... I never asked to get paid for streaming NEC/WB/SJ/BB. I was doing those for free to support the community. My problem with BigE is not that he wasn't paying me, as I never expected to get paid in the first place. My problem with him is that when he fucked up, he threw me under the bus to protect his own reputation. Potentially ruining my relationship with Namco and the Tekken community. The sad part is, I've seen him do this to others as well. When a TO makes a decision (and usually the right decision from what I've seen), he shows up and reverses their decision; then later on I see him laying the blame on that TO for fucking up.
As for what Renegade said about me not streaming what I should have been streaming in the first place... I refer you to what I said before, I WAS GIVEN NO SCHEDULES. On Sunday, why did I stream Windjammers? Because I had a FOUR HOUR open block on my stream with nothing to put on it. Why? Because the schedule was terrible. When I asked if there was any Tekken to stream, I was told it was being saved for the main stage. So I had nothing to stream; I was told to stream whatever I wanted. So we had a Windjammers tournament.
call_kotaku
Member
The only actual fact of the matter is that Jaxel did a bunch of spec work or was otherwise working without a contract or agreement in place, and ended up being unsatisfied with the final outcome. That happens all the time in all communities and industries and isn't evidence of anything other than bad business by one or both parties. He's framing it like he's a victim of a broad FGC problem, and somehow "well if you count up the amount of entry fees and subtract the pot there's still money left" is enough cause to ask people for receipts.
Normally the burden of proof would be on Jaxel since he's someone that organizers and community leaders consistently have a problem with, but since he got the first word on accusations it's up to people to prove they're not conspiring.
But yeah I agree this whole situation is stupid
Professor Beef
Banned
Two jobs? Is BigE a Tekken player?
Parallax Scroll
Banned
tee hee
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I think business is an interesting word to use considering that apparently none of these events are even that profitable for the TOs.
I don't really think Jaxel was suggesting there was some at large conspiracy against him by the CAPCOM ILLUMINATI. I think those were just different examples he's had of prominent figures in the community exhibiting behavior that was "anti-community". Such as Henry Cen trying to start another stream during The Break, or the Cannons not paying him for his work on the website, then blaming his software when bugs appeared with no support and finally banning him when he defended his software on their site.
I think those were all meant to be isolated incidents rather than evidence of a conspiracy against him. I'm sure there's a different side to all of those stories as well, but that kind of conflict existing in something so "for the common good" as the FGC tries to outwardly appear serves the point he was trying to make in itself.
I just zero'd in on potential blacklisting aspect as that level of sabotage seems especially toxic to me.
BillyBones
Neo Member
Henry Cen wanted to have an additional event at his own venue (in a different state) playing different games, and have it streamed. There are only so many nights in a week and Thursday already has Long Island events plus a Levelup stream going on so Henry wanted to try Tuesday before he settled on Saturdays instead. Ummmm...on blast? I guess?
https://twitter.com/itsyaboyrolando/status/349015003510210561
Guess Rolando would like to add stuff but his account isn't activated
Guess Rolando would like to add stuff but his account isn't activated
this is the allegation i want big e to respond to.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
Oh boy, Rolando. I look forward to him pulling the race card when people don't agree with him on something.
Gentleman Jack
Member
It does seem that more often than not the FGC organizes itself around friends doing things for other friends, often for free, because the money isn't there to really grow up and become a self-sustaining business, and nobody is sharing strategies that help everyone win because maybe one in a thousand people actually have a grain of business sense in their heads and not enough of them are part of the community. All this drama sparked because someone doesn't understand the rules of the NFL and can't get a proper contract for contract work.
Wait when has he done that?
Ragingnight
Member
he mentioned it when talking about ultradavid. Something along the lines of "Because ultradavid is white so its ok, but because I'm a minority its not".
call_kotaku
Member
Money is being exchanged for services so that's a business interaction and sometimes contracts and agreements are involved; it's not an issue of profit.
He specifically singled out "Capcom FGC" and labeled it as a community problem, so even if people aren't in direct collusion the community itself is alluded to as being toxic. The fact is, he had no proof with which to ascribe motive to anyone involved but bringing them all under the umbrella of "FGC illuminati shadiness" somehow validates it. It's faulty logic on a couple of levels.
His personal narrative and speculation is the only thing that is connecting all the disparate pieces, and ultimately it's all a distraction towards the basic problem of Jaxel being the only person who repeatedly has these grievances that nobody else has (or he was the only person who made public remarks). SRK having shit web design, Henry Cen wanting a Tuesday tournament, and Big E running 3 tournaments a year isn't evidence for anything unless you assume motives for half a dozen people. Basically, the entire weight of these accusations hinge on Jaxel being the only person in a community of thousands who is willing to be a whistleblower, which isn't impossible but I'm disinclined to believe a lack of evidence as incriminatory.
Not being solicited for your services because of a bad reputation (anti-networking, basically) and being "blacklisted" look awfully similar from the outside, but again it's a matter of how you frame that narrative.
Face it Tiger..
Banned
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
He said something about how Ultradavid must not like how he does his business because he's a black guy from the Caribbean. There's a screencap of it in one of the fighting game threads but I can't find it atm.
Oh wait I think I vaguely remember that
So one of Jaxel's detractors goes with "he is like Fox News, burden of proof is on him." And another, Big E, says "why do I have 2 jobs if I make so much money?"
These responses are clearly slippery. If someone accused me falsely, I'd provide a quick, factual summary to disprove the assertions, such as "I made X dollars."
I'm confident that Jaxel has some items correct here.
These responses are clearly slippery. If someone accused me falsely, I'd provide a quick, factual summary to disprove the assertions, such as "I made X dollars."
I'm confident that Jaxel has some items correct here.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
You don't believe the guy who won Evo knows how much money he made?
He said he made 7500+ dollars. How much more specific do you need?
MikeBreezy92
Member
Burden of Proof is a two sided thing anyways.
This entire thread was just framed wrong. Thus things that were supposed to be focused aren't.
This entire thread was just framed wrong. Thus things that were supposed to be focused aren't.
That's just one point tho, doesn't mean all jaxel said is a lie.
Even jaxel's post on this page is on a different tune than the OP. At least we're moving somewhere.
EVO payouts are boring -- let's talk itemized TO balance sheets.
Many people have day jobs, and folks aren't doing this to get rich. The FGC is a labor of love and ego.
This drama is pretty much why I stick to VF for competitive stuff- it's so small that there's no point in having an Ego. Who wants to be the King of Sealand?
No matter what, I'm going to refrain from slagging Jaxel except on factual stuff, because I know he's been good for many smaller games.
Well played sir.
MikeBreezy92
Member
FGC is pretty much grassroots with a Minor in E-Sports. Most of it is sustained by the community.
Thanks for riding this tiger of a discussion, btw
Some actual real stuff is being discussed
-also goofy drama, infighting, sarcastic joking around, hyperbole vs. euphemism, hearsay, tweet logs, banning...
Getting all these people approved accounts is a huge net positive.Thanks for riding this tiger of a discussion, btw
Some actual real stuff is being discussed
-also goofy drama, infighting, sarcastic joking around, hyperbole vs. euphemism, hearsay, tweet logs, banning...
Passive Assassin
Member
All for the glory of the GAF!
Ragingnight
Member
I wouldn't be surprised if people got perma banned for not knowing neogaf rules.
Just make sure they keep clear of Officer Dahbomb.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Well, all I can tell you personally is why he didn't get stream #2 or #3 at Final Round. It was because Larry gave those spots to FunkyP and myself, as we stream small local events, we wanted the opportunity, and he likes to do favors for local guys when he can.
That's a pretty good display of "grass roots" work, if you ask me.
Hey, I know that guy!
Have to deal with his shit here in Colorado while trying to get the local FGC going, but he just overclouds everything we do...
Triple Da G.O.D!
Member
Contrary to the above GIF, I don't want to see the receipts. GIF however warranted.
Still no comment. Carry on.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Pretty sure everybody agrees that that site has been a mess more often than not for a couple years now.
Professor Beef
Banned
Officer Dahbomb can be bribed. Unfortunately, they don't have deep enough pockets.