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Jimquisition: Nintendo's Virtual Console Is Trash Garbage (Jan. 9, 2017)

Spiral Insanity said:
Because it is legal? And I want to play on my Vita/3DS without using hacked firmware? Support these releases.

If everyone thought like you we wouldn't have a VC.
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You didn't have VC for years and yet people were able to experience and play NES and SNES games easily. Everyone of my friends growing up had SNES 9x or ZSNES to play classic games on. What do you think we did as kids? Went out and purchased a cart of Chrono Trigger and a SNES to play it on?

Also, if I go and buy an SNES second hand along with the carts how is the any different than emulation? Nintendo isn't seeing any of the money and someone profited from selling me copies of a game.

Truth be told, games from the SNES era or earlier have no value to me. Outside of owning games and systems for collecting purposes I would never purchase what amounts to a ROM. Especially if better free alternatives exist.

Edit:

Hugstable said:
Alot of those games can be expensive if you want to emulate them legit, which is why for most games myself I've enjoyed the Virtual Console (though N64 is really bad, I tend to not get those lol).
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No one gives a fuck about doing it legitimately! Go on the Android app store and look at the download numbers for SNES emulators. Many are a million + and one is even ten million +! What do you think? There are just tens of millions of legitimate SNES cart owners out there looking to legally emulate the games they own? It's crazy to even suggest otherwise. People emulate old games all the time! They've been doing it since I was a kid in the late 90s / early 00s with No$Gameboy and the like. It was widespread back then and is still widespread now.

I honestly can't see VC ever being anything other than trash garbage, especially when a bunch of people in their spare time can come up with more compelling ways to play classic games.
 
Glass Rebel said:
You know you have a problem when "legality" is the only selling point of your product.
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Why? How about the fact of being able to play on 3DS? Like I said, there are no issues with VC on 3DS.

So you are saying, because you can also download them ilegally and install hacked firmware, the legitimate method suddenly is the worst option because you have to pay?

Jesus.

Bubba_Sparks said:
You didn't have VC for years and yet people were able to experience and play NES and SNES games easily. Everyone of my friends growing up had SNES 9x or ZSNES to play classic games on. What do you think we did as kids? Went out and purchased a cart of Chrono Trigger and a SNES to play it on?

Also, if I go and buy an SNES second hand along with the carts how is the any different than emulation? Nintendo isn't seeing any of the money and someone profited from selling me copies of a game.

Truth be told, games from the SNES era or earlier have no value to me. Outside of owning games and systems for collecting purposes I would never purchase what amounts to a ROM. Especially if better free alternatives exist.
Click to expand...

CT was released a million different ways on so many platforms. Yes, you could have bought it.

Where do you draw the line? I mean, why not download GOG games illegally right? There is no DRM and you don't have to pay!!!

But please, justify stealing games if that makes you feel better.
 
I wouldn't even have to watch the video to know that I agree with him on this one. The quality and, ESPECIALLY, quantity of Nintendo's Virtual Console offerings just isn't adequate.
 
He's absolutely correct. VC has been a disappointment as soon as they left behind their diverse library that they built up on the Wii and tried to start over on the 3DS/WiiU. Though the quality still wasn't the best, the quantity being released was multitudes better on the Wii.

Wasn't there dedicated teams releasing like 4 games every two weeks back when the Wii was in its stride?
 
Well, at least Nintendo are releasing stuff on their current hardware AT ALL. Sony never bothered to transition their PS1 classics library over to PS4, and I'm pretty sure the PS2 stuff is close to nonexistent on the PS4 as well. Sony are pretty much the worst with this.
 
Candescence said:
Well, at least Nintendo are releasing stuff on their current hardware AT ALL. Sony never bothered to transition their PS1 classics library over to PS4, and I'm pretty sure the PS2 stuff is close to nonexistent. Sony are pretty much the worst with this.
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Jim actually addresses this in the video itself. We'll probably be hearing about them soon.
 
He took a softball this week. I don't think anyone is gonna really disagree when a bunch of Nintendo fans have to rely on CFW to play games they've owned on cart for decades still.
 
Yeah, outside of the obvious "it's tied to the system and you have to buy the same games over and over", the pricing being set is probably the other worst thing about this.

5 bucks for NES tennis or w/e is ridiculous. There are so many older nintendo games [eople might actually buy it if it was like, 1$.
 
There is no defending the 3DS and Wii U VC. As much as everyone used to complain about the Wii drip feed, it was the only VC done right. It had a good amount of systems and rare games including some released in English for the first time, the emulation was top notch, and until WiiWare started it had at least 1 good release nearly every week.

The fact that Wii U and 3DS were developed with no way to carry those Wii purchases over in a way that allowed you to take advantage of what the new platforms offered is crazy. Then Nintendo restarted the drip feed for a worse quality emulator on Wii U that they made you pay an upgrade fee for. The 3DS tried to avoid overlap with Wii VC at first but even the GB games they offered ignored the decades of features added like colorization on newer GB platforms and SNES. M2, who managed the Game Gear releases and had a line of 3D remakes embarrassed Nintendo in both the quality of emulation and the features and number of their 3D releases.

The only thing 3DS and Wii U VC are good at is being the cheapest ways to legally play MegaMan X3 and still giving access to the Wii store front.
 
I bet somebody could make a pretty decent "Jimquisition Name Generator" at this point.

VendettaRed07 said:
Yeah, outside of the obvious "it's tied to the system and you have to buy the same games over and over", the pricing being set is probably the other worst thing about this.

5 bucks for NES tennis or w/e is ridiculous. There are so many older nintendo games [eople might actually buy it if it was like, 1$.
Click to expand...

I bet Nintendo has numbers that show that for every 4 people who would buy it for 1$ they have one dude who buys it for 5$
 
Berordn said:
Jim actually addresses this in the video itself. We'll probably be hearing about them soon.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but what he said in the video is pretty much a massive understatement. Not to defend Nintendo's efforts with current-system VC, but Sony's efforts are a fucking garbage fire even by that low standard and need to be savaged as viciously as possible, Jim really needs to make another video focusing on Sony.
 
Mr-Joker said:
Digital titles are tied to your account.
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So why can't there be something to prevent people from re-buying the same games onto each Nintendo machine? Transfer over what you have bought from one machine to the next? You would think accounts alone would be enough.
 
I wish he didn't use the same song on loop for every single video. It's like 30 seconds long and really bothers me for some reason.

I think critiquing the virtual console is still worthwhile because of how poorly it has been handled since it's inception despite how great it could be and how much money it could make.
 
Jim Sterling said:
This.

I brought this up on an episode a few weeks ago too. When you have nothing but the law to make your product appealing, you have a fucking unappealing product.
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Piracy is almost always more appealing than paying for things, especially if you don't give a shit about the company you're denying revenue to.

That's really not much of an argument. If nobody wanted to play retro games - ie they are unappealing - then nobody would be playing retro games.
 
Spiral Insanity said:
Why? How about the fact of being able to play on 3DS? Like I said, there are no issues with VC on 3DS.

So you are saying, because you can also download them ilegally and install hacked firmware, the legitimate method suddenly is the worst option because you have to pay?

Jesus.
Click to expand...

Well how about the fact they are still uploading crapper 50hz games for Europeans.
Should I pay for that?
 
You don't understand, Switch's VC will be a whole new experience! It's totally worth upgrading your upgraded emulations of decades old games.
 
FearMyWrench said:
Great timing before we learn about the VC Switch upgrade fees this week!!
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And I would happily pay them up, if they're worth it, like the Wii U VC features were. By all means, it was free to play the old VC games on Wii mode if you didn't want to play the fee.

Anything would be better than for example the PS3->PS4 situation where your old games just don't go over at all. Which is honestly what I fear, with the architecture change situation. I don't fear paying a low optional upgrade fee, work should be rewarded.
 
Guys it's only 2017 you can't expect a billion dollar corporation to be able to properly run and manage an online digital software storefront.
 
They honestly just need to hire more people to handle it. NERD being put in charge of Switch VC is a good start, at least the emulation won't be trash. They need to have some big VC games ready for day one and a solid release schedule (like 3 games a week minimum) ready to go.
 
Jim Sterling said:
This.

I brought this up on an episode a few weeks ago too. When you have nothing but the law to make your product appealing, you have a fucking unappealing product.
Click to expand...

So being able to play Super Metroid on n3DS has no merits to you? How is that not appealing in and of itself? They should be commended for releasing 'rare' games like Demon's Crest and Breath of Fire 2.
 
I stopped buying virtual console games after the Wii when I realized that the homebrew emulators have better features than the Nintendo developed ones. If they want $5 every five years for the same game they need to put in some sort of effort and have feature parity with the homebrew stuff.
 
Just getting into RLM, Jimmy Boy? But yes, thank god for Gym
kata
.

Don't fuck this one up, Nintendo. People are riding high on the Switch right now.
 
Yeah the drip schedule for games is really annoying. I'm not even sure they're gonna learn to improve this mentality for the Switch.
 
Yeah the Wii U Virtual Console has been pretty bad. The Wii VC was sooooo good. Sure it dried up in terms of new releases as time went on, and was missing some notable games, but in terms of sheer volume of games and the emulation quality, it was staggering. How they went from that to the Wii U's situation is such a shame.

Semi-related but the GameCube controllers only working with Smash Bros is just so strange to me. It would have been so cool to play Wind Waker HD or Twilight Princess HD with those. Hell, homebrew manages to get that done just fine, so it's very much technically possible. It just... isn't allowed, for some reason.
 
Need Nintendo to implement a subscription service. 10 bucks a month for unlimited games add a dollar for every console Library. Maybe 2-3 dollars for gamecube and ds games
 
Spiral Insanity said:
But please, justify stealing games if that makes you feel better.
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What are you talking about?

I have over 150 games on Steam, another 30 plus on GOG and several on Origin. I always buy when I feel there is value in spending my money.

There isn't any value in purchasing SNES ROMs that can be had for free and experienced better elsewhere.

Again, how is emulating different than purchasing these games second hand? Nintendo isn't seeing any of my money, in fact I paid someone else, and yet I am still able to play the game. There are tons of Retro game stores set up to do exactly that.
 
Gleethor said:
They honestly just need to hire more people to handle it. NERD being put in charge of Switch VC is a good start, at least the emulation won't be trash. They need to have some big VC games ready for day one and a solid release schedule (like 3 games a week minimum) ready to go.
Click to expand...

They also need to get rid of the one price fits all model. In what world are Ice Climbers and Super Mario Bros 3 worth the same amount of money?
 
LordRaptor said:
Piracy is almost always more appealing than paying for things, especially if you don't give a shit about the company you're denying revenue to.

That's really not much of an argument. If nobody wanted to play retro games - ie they are unappealing - then nobody would be playing retro games.
Click to expand...

The problem is that people pays for things, people pays for netflix, people pays for games on steam, etc.

Bceause those providers offers something more appealing that not paying. If the VC service offered something a similar value as those two examples, people would be playing.

Not forcing people to pay everytime there's a console switch (did you see what I did there? huehue) is a good start.
 
jufonuk said:
he is like a more angry Garth Marenghi
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so what happened between him and this retro customeeeeeer

on topic, Nintendo's VC implementation has always been shit. Sega one-upped them on the 3DS with how much care and attention went into their VC games. Great value.
 
jwhit28 said:
They also need to get rid of the one price fits all model. In what world are Ice Climbers and Super Mario Bros 3 worth the same amount of money?
Click to expand...

This is a very good point. And they need volume. None of this drip feed bullshit. They need to launch with a shitload of NES/SNES/Genesis/NeoGeo games, and commit to supporting by adding more titles (in addition to stuff from GameBoy, GBA, GameGear, TG16). Nintendo already has the foundation in place to make this thing the iTunes of gaming, but how far would iTunes have come if the service launched with like 7 total albums and only added 1-2 more per month?
 
BitStyle said:
He's absolutely correct. VC has been a disappointment as soon as they left behind their diverse library that they built up on the Wii and tried to start over on the 3DS/WiiU. Though the quality still wasn't the best, the quantity being released was multitudes better on the Wii.

Wasn't there dedicated teams releasing like 4 games every two weeks back when the Wii was in its stride?
Click to expand...

It's been a disappointment halfway through the Wii's lifespan in all honesty. Sure, it eventually crawled to a very respectable selection, especially the Japanese VC, but it was a depressing slog to get there. The Wii U and the 3DS were just crap from the get-go with the Wii U's poor emulation and the 3DS' stubborn refusal to actually put up portable games on the service.

That's why I'm done with the VC outside of GBA games on the Wii U and finishing up my Wii collections.
 
Bubba_Sparks said:
What are you talking about?

I have over 150 games on Steam, another 30 plus on GOG and several on Origin. I always buy when I feel there is value in spending my money.

There isn't any value in purchasing SNES ROMs that can be had for free and experienced better elsewhere.

Again, how is emulating different than purchasing these games second hand? Nintendo isn't seeing any of my money, in fact I paid someone else, and yet I am still able to play the game. There are tons of Retro game stores set up to do exactly that.
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Just because you have 150 games on Steam doesn't mean you are right in arguing that people are wrong for downloading official virtual console games, or that that is somehow a worse option.

It's fine if you don't see the value, I mean, you're obviously not forced to buy these releases. But you came in here asking people why they would even bother in the first place.

Well, I want to play SNES games on my N3DS. And I want more of these releases.

This has nothing to do with the second hand or rental market.


Bubba_Sparks said:
What are you talking about?

There isn't any value in purchasing SNES ROMs that can be had for free and experienced better elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I don't understand this statement. At all. The value is that I can play Final Fight 3 on my 3DS. How is that not a value? The emulation is great, it has save-states, and the resolution of the 3DS is actually very well suited for SNES emulation.
How is this somehow without value just because I can download the entire SNES library for free in 15 seconds after some googling?

You can do the same to anything digital. Any movie, any album, any digital content. It seems you have no issue in justifying that. But hey, you have 150 games on Steam.. Wow!
 
Relaxed Muscle said:
The problem is that people pays for things, people pays for netflix, people pays for games on steam, etc.

Bceause those providers offers something more appealing that not paying. If the VC service offered something a similar value as those two examples, people would be playing.

Not forcing people to pay everytime there's a console switch (did you see what I did there? huehue) is a good start.
Click to expand...

But we're not talking about "The VC is a bit shit, so I pay for the ROM so the owners get their money, but then use a better emulator to play the game in".

We're talking about "The VC is a bit shit, so I just download COMPLETE_GOODSNES_PACK.RAR"
 
Has there ever been a good reason for Nintendo to drip feed VC games? They have so many games in each system's library and it would go a long way towards filling in gaps between bigger releases.

It just doesn't make any sense. Release more games! Release them faster! Put GBA games on N3DS! Sell DS games on the 3DS eShop! WTF!?

This is (one of the reasons) why I have so much pessimism regarding how thing will go for the Switch.

Jim makes a good example of how a glut of games at once is perfectly acceptable, especially if it is offered as a bundle. But then Nintendo also felt that there was no need to continue selling games to NES classic owners so fuck all.

If I were Nintendo I would release entire series of games in a franchise or system at once and offer them in discounted bundles.

By all three DKC in the DKC bundle!

Get the Mario Collection, includes all 2D Marios!

Get the Nintendo 64 Sports collection! Mario Kart, Tennis, Golf, Waverace and 1080!

Best of SNES bundles!
Bundle #1 SMW, DKC, The Legend of Zelda, Super Metroid, Mario Kart, Kirby Super Star
Bundle #2 Yoshi's Island, DKC2, Mario RPG, F-Zero, Earthbound, Super Punch-Out!!
 
I think the way the Wii/WiiU transition kinda worked.
I mean the games were a set price because that's how much it cost,
you can move the software to the next product line at no additional fee.
There's an upgrade fee to access new features (miiverse and not having to deal with wii's UI in this case).
there's ways it could be better but it's kinda sound way to make it work.
Of course pirates will not see the point, but fuck them they wouldn't pay if it was a dime anyway.
they should have been more forward thinking though with something like that :
Price of the software + platform fee.
That way you only need to pay the platform fee anytime they release it on a new platform.
You have Castlevania on Wii? pay the platform fee to get it on WiiU. You want it on 3DS? sure another platform fee that is not just full price.
Tie that to the account and you have something acceptable to customers, it won't feel like paying full price for SMB 15 years after buying it for the 10th time.
the way it is now, I have something like 40 Wii VC games and barely 8 on wiiU and like 1 on 3DS.
I'm not paying 5 bucks for SMB on 3DS, that's just not happening.
Same goes for SMW, I like the game but I'm not paying them 8 bucks for the pleasure of playing it on n3DS either. I have more ways to access the game that I can count already.

It's STILL better than whatever the fuck Sony is doing on psn.
I'm not paying to access FFVII to IX on ps4 when I have it on ps3 already, not fucking full price.

Also looking at how 3DS handles DS games (or even DSi apps), I don't think anyone want these on 3DS just yet.
GBA games on n3DS makes more sense.
 
You just need to compare the lists by publisher and system to see where some of the disparities are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Virtual_Console_games_for_Wii_(North_America)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Virtual_Console_games_for_Wii_U_(North_America)

According to those pages, there are 398 Wii Virtual Console games, 262 Wii U Virtual Console games.

You know what Wii U is missing?

15 Sega Master System games (because Sega abandoned VC)
73 Sega Genesis games (because Sega abandoned VC)
56 TurboGrafx games (3 made the cut, because Konami are assholes about Hudson's catalogue)
54 Neo Geo games (because SNK abandoned VC)
24 arcade games, many of them by Sega

If you subtract all those games from the Wii number, you get only 176 VC games. So Nintendo has done a decent job to expand the VC further in spite of third parties refusing to re-up their Wii VC.

They've actually done a pretty good job maintaining their NES collection, for which many of the third parties returned, although Taito is gone.

DS is even a fairly new addition to Wii U VC (mid-2015) and they've got a pretty good chunk of significant releases available for it.
 
NSESN said:
Oh, he means Virtual Console release schedule, i don't think any Nintendo fan will disagree with him about this.
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Yeah. . . After coming out the gate swinging with the Wii the VC concept has floundered, hard.

Marketing, branding, contracts, vendor management, and development of the emulation itself. All done poorly.
 
LordRaptor said:
But we're not talking about "The VC is a bit shit, so I pay for the ROM so the owners get their money, but then use a better emulator to play the game in".

We're talking about "The VC is a bit shit, so I just download COMPLETE_GOODSNES_PACK.RAR"
Click to expand...

Offer something better. A better UI, more options, better emulators, simplicity of use, etc...
 
Ninja Scooter said:
This is a very good point. And they need volume. None of this drip feed bullshit. They need to launch with a shitload of NES/SNES/Genesis/NeoGeo games, and commit to supporting by adding more titles (in addition to stuff from GameBoy, GBA, GameGear, TG16). Nintendo already has the foundation in place to make this thing the iTunes of gaming, but how far would iTunes have come if the service launched with like 7 total albums and only added 1-2 more per month?
Click to expand...

For real. I had a hankering to play Chrono Trigger the other day, but it's not on the Wii U (only the Wii). That might be Squeenix being stingy with the licensing, but that still leaves all the other problems mentioned of inconsistent pricing, terrible interface/discoverability, unnecessary drip-feed and poor license handling (e.g. lose a console, lose the games, shitty upgrade path).

I want the ability to easily find and purchase games, from my phone or the console. I want a big library of games at launch, not years into the lifecycle. If I lose or replace my console, I want to simply log into my account to redownload everything. If a new console comes out, I'm fine with paying a small fee to use the games on the new console but the process should be extremely simple - none of this transferring games through a special app bullshit.

Seriously, I spent $0.00 on VC games with the Wii U because Nintendo handled it so badly with the Wii and I got burned. If they get their shit together I would be prepared to drop a lot of money on VC games.
 
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