It will always come down to the customer to choose. With their wallets. As Stump pointed, you can launch any game you want on Steam, but you can pretty much sell (before 75% or higher discount for collectors) just the stuff people will buy.
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Jimquisition - Steam Needs Quality Control
- Thread starter Intheflorsh
- Start date
It will always come down to the customer to choose. With their wallets. As Stump pointed, you can launch any game you want on Steam, but you can pretty much sell (before 75% or higher discount for collectors) just the stuff people will buy.
Very well said. Particularly agree with the bolded.
Delusibeta
Banned
I'm genuinely surprised that no developer has called bullshit on this video yet (see also the reaction to RPS's article on copyright). Bluntly, nobody wants to be told that their shit sucks, and I'd imagine there would be uproar as soon as something fails QA, or even if something is delayed because of QA.
Jim Sterling
Member
I can't necessarily be held accountable if you didn't like today's video. Viewer beware, and all that. 
I can't necessarily be held accountable if you didn't like today's video. Viewer beware, and all that.
We still love you, Jim. We just don't necessarily agree with you today. 's all.
An ideal bipartite solution:
1. A curated section that allows people to find good games. It would provide value to both people who do not wish to do external research and to those who want to buy games that do not have many critical reviews available (which is true of a lot of indie games).
2. An open market section that offers consumers an easy return/refund process.
1. A curated section that allows people to find good games. It would provide value to both people who do not wish to do external research and to those who want to buy games that do not have many critical reviews available (which is true of a lot of indie games).
2. An open market section that offers consumers an easy return/refund process.
At this point I don't think valve will ever be able to solve this. There is no perfect solution to this and someone will always be complaining. The most promising solution will probably be user created stores but I guys that's going to open another can of worms and people will be complaining that there are too many stores and that Indies can't be successful if they aren't featured on store x.
Whatever they do, there will always be someone complaining.
Whatever they do, there will always be someone complaining.
Intheflorsh
Banned
I can't necessarily be held accountable if you didn't like today's video. Viewer beware, and all that.
Good thing it was free!
Elfforkusu
Member
They probably need to build a crowdsourced demotion system, where the offending games get "un"greenlighted.
I have to strongly disagree with you Jim about Rekoil. I think it's a damned decent game with good gunplay, good maps and well balanced weapons - hell I've found it more fun than a lot of FPS I've played recently. That patch they rushed out also solved a lot of problems for quite a few people. Don't get me wrong it has it's flaws but honestly you come across as just bitter for playing a game you didn't like in that video. I apologise if that's not the case, that's just how it felt to me. It doesn't deserve to be lumped in with shit like Guise or Takedown which I feel are truly half baked pieces of shit. To say Rekoil launched in an 'alpha' state is a bit unfair even if it could use a bit of polish. Fuck sake Battlefield 4 launched in worse condition than Rekoil did! But well different strokes I guess.
I can't necessarily be held accountable if you didn't like today's video. Viewer beware, and all that.
Youtube should stop letting you post
KodeAndGame
Member
And no other store has the amount of great games that Steam has. What other stores are currently carrying Gunpoint, The Swapper, Rogue Legacy, The Banner Saga, Samurai Gun and Nidhogg? I'll take that good with the bad of Steam also releasing all the games you listed in your video that I would have never heard of or seen if it wasn't for your video.
Jim Sterling
Member
I am just making fun. After the most common criticism being that my show preaches to the choir, having a divisive episode now and then certainly isn't a bad thing.
ArkkAngel007
Member
The community as far as I know have done a great job at quality control themselves and lifting up the stuff worthy of giving a shot. As far as those type of games aren't randomly given a huge spotlight feature or what not, it'll sort itself out. The only exception was The WarZ, which predated the current environment given that it was what encouraged a change to what was there.
The exception to this is Early Access, which will undermine probably any solution (if any is needed) to quality control. Can't be just put up as a complete product? No worries, just slap an early access tag on it.
The exception to this is Early Access, which will undermine probably any solution (if any is needed) to quality control. Can't be just put up as a complete product? No worries, just slap an early access tag on it.
Shit like Flappy Bird is on both App store and Google Play. What's your point here?
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I totally agree with Jim. I like Steam as a store but by god can't I trust it when it comes to quality control. Good thing there are such things like the internet. Valve really needs to do something and they need to do it fast.
Green Light is an interesting idea, but too much shit and Minecraft/Slender Clones get upvoted
Green Light is an interesting idea, but too much shit and Minecraft/Slender Clones get upvoted
BobTheFork
Member
I find this hard to care about. First, it was massive complaints that the system was too closed and hard to get a game on. They start Greenlight, and people get angry because, they games they wanted weren't getting enough votes. Then they open the gates and it's complaints about quality of games or too much content. Constant complaints about independant games being created in a vacuum and not reflecting the community (Increasingly community funded) and now complaints about early access and unfinished games.
Steam is a good service but that's it. It feels like there are people going crazy because they can't figure out why Steam isn't as perfect as they think it should be. There is no perfect solution for this industry and we aren't going to get some master plan that everyone can get behind.
Whatever gets the most upvotes is what people want right?
Steam is a good service but that's it. It feels like there are people going crazy because they can't figure out why Steam isn't as perfect as they think it should be. There is no perfect solution for this industry and we aren't going to get some master plan that everyone can get behind.
Whatever gets the most upvotes is what people want right?
Elfforkusu
Member
They need a quality control system...
The12thGripper
Member
Well, he isn't wrong.
Jim Sterling
Member
Considering the reputation YouTube has, you're not doing much to dissuade me from my point.
yeah, it's cool. swing and a miss for me, but i'll turn up next week with my bootleg season ticket and week old hotdog i snuck in under my jacket.
Please let me use my brain and research what I buy... like for every other consumables.
Blindly buying a game on steam based on screenshot / PR description is just asking for trouble. Even when it his dirt cheap instabuy worthy, I research extensively before buying a game on Steam. Everyone should do the same.
When I get interested in a game, I check the forums, user reviews, press reviews, game awards and GAF. And if, after all this I actually make a mistake, I just ask Steam for a refund.
Really, I don't see any issues here. I just have more options then before. Wich makes me very happy as a gamer.
Blindly buying a game on steam based on screenshot / PR description is just asking for trouble. Even when it his dirt cheap instabuy worthy, I research extensively before buying a game on Steam. Everyone should do the same.
When I get interested in a game, I check the forums, user reviews, press reviews, game awards and GAF. And if, after all this I actually make a mistake, I just ask Steam for a refund.
Really, I don't see any issues here. I just have more options then before. Wich makes me very happy as a gamer.
Delusibeta
Banned
The problem is that devs will complain if they can't get into 1, regardless of reason, while people will complain if a bad game gets into 1, regardless of reason.
That said, I do have a suggestion for a solution: curated store pages. Basically, allowing people to list what they believe are good games and letting other people to buy via that page. Hence, people who share (for sake of argument) Jim's taste in video games can follow his page and read and buy from his recommendations. In addition, you can allow games in Greenlight to be purchasable from said curated store pages and you've got open Steamworks.
Shadow Hog
Member
I kind of feel like this issue became more prevalent as Greenlight batches became larger... When they only greenlit 10-15 titles at a time, at least then you knew it was the ones people wanted the most at that given point in time, and while I can only imagine some shit still slipped through the cracks while good titles would be ignored, solely because the former was up high in the Top 100 and the latter had been languishing at #101, it wasn't quite to the same volume.
All the same, there are some titles I'm kind of glad the bigger batches caught. Shantae. Mutant Mudds. Gunman Clive. Freedom Planet (this one in particular, since I'm a particularly big fan of it, but it's considerably more obscure). Things like that, that I'm not sure would've made it in otherwise. I suppose they'll have their work cut out for them with regards to selling well, standing out from the tons of titles of inferior quality greenlit at the same time... I'm not entirely sure what can be done about that.
(And since Revelations 2012 came out irrespective of Greenlight, I suppose all this rambling means nothing in the end.)
All the same, there are some titles I'm kind of glad the bigger batches caught. Shantae. Mutant Mudds. Gunman Clive. Freedom Planet (this one in particular, since I'm a particularly big fan of it, but it's considerably more obscure). Things like that, that I'm not sure would've made it in otherwise. I suppose they'll have their work cut out for them with regards to selling well, standing out from the tons of titles of inferior quality greenlit at the same time... I'm not entirely sure what can be done about that.
(And since Revelations 2012 came out irrespective of Greenlight, I suppose all this rambling means nothing in the end.)
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
I said this last month.. it's like the floodgates have opened and every piece of junk released is dropped on Steam.
The shear amount of releases is almost App Store-like.. with literally hundreds of titles a month dropping with the quality of a lot of the titles downright questionable.. mix that with the abundance of titles releasing EA it's really hard to find what's worth playing... even searching some of the stuff on Gaf doesn't help.. and Steam forums are almost worthless to gauge anything.. with a level of discourse at Gamefaqs level.
It really just kind of shows that Steam needs a better front end. It's pretty bad how bad the FE is on Steam.. with all that money I wish Steam would invest some of it back into make the service easier and better with more choices of filtering.
The shear amount of releases is almost App Store-like.. with literally hundreds of titles a month dropping with the quality of a lot of the titles downright questionable.. mix that with the abundance of titles releasing EA it's really hard to find what's worth playing... even searching some of the stuff on Gaf doesn't help.. and Steam forums are almost worthless to gauge anything.. with a level of discourse at Gamefaqs level.
It really just kind of shows that Steam needs a better front end. It's pretty bad how bad the FE is on Steam.. with all that money I wish Steam would invest some of it back into make the service easier and better with more choices of filtering.
Sentenza
Member
I'm going to bet it won't solve complaints, anyway.
People at that point will probably whine about the Steam Store itself being too "tight" and on how "merely" having Steam API on their game will not grant them their deserved sales.
Like, here's what people are playing on Steam:
There are some games there that I don't necessarily like or whatever, but clearly those titles aren't the kinds of thing that Stirling is complaining about.
And here's Takedown: Red Sabre:
Revelations 2012:
Exactly. People recognize shit games.
Steam still needs UI improvements but i've never been afraid of buying a stinker. Not anymore than at retail anyway (and when i paid 2$ for it on a sale i care a whole less about it).
Considering the reputation YouTube has, you're not doing much to dissuade me from my point.
Great. So YouTube should staff up and start making quality determinations on all submissions. Obviously this will be an incredible undertaking so we'll have to cover those costs.
How does $1,000 per video submitted work for you?
I'm coming to love the user review system on each game page as well. I look over reviews before every purchase now. I find it extremely valuable, especially since it shows the users play time alongside said review. I'm ok with community feedback acting as curation over what is good and what is not. Better this than Valve telling me what games I can't play because they decided a game shouldn't be on Steam. Seems to me the community does the best job of regulation.
Baleoce
Member
I don't understand the logic of wanting to open the floodgates to everything and anything on a digital distribution platform on PC; a machine on which you can inherently do all of the above by default anyway. Nothings stopping you. The very same is true of Android. You don't need google play, you can make people install your game outside of the marketplace.
The premium and the reason developers (should) strive to be on those platforms by making their games at least somewhat half decent, is for the visibility and the prestige that (again, should) be associated with that digital distribution platform.
The premium and the reason developers (should) strive to be on those platforms by making their games at least somewhat half decent, is for the visibility and the prestige that (again, should) be associated with that digital distribution platform.
Huevos de Oro
Member
Good stuff. I agree with the basic premise that it's becoming increasingly hard to separate the wheat from the chaff with the amount of titles at offer on Steam. However, I disagree that the way to avoid that is to increase restrictions for everybody trying to release a product on the platform.
In the end, I guess what I am trying to say is that eventually word of mouth catches up with both good and bad games harder and faster than ever before, thanks to the amount of information tools we have at our disposal in case we are pondering on whether to buy a particular game or not. I guess what I am really trying to ask is: Would you risk denying one good game a chance of showing up on Steam if that meant to stop 20 crappy ones from appearing?
I certainly like the approach of having actual impressions on the game right in the store page. Steam's evolving review system is just another tool at one's disposal to make informed purchase decisions.
In the end, I guess what I am trying to say is that eventually word of mouth catches up with both good and bad games harder and faster than ever before, thanks to the amount of information tools we have at our disposal in case we are pondering on whether to buy a particular game or not. I guess what I am really trying to ask is: Would you risk denying one good game a chance of showing up on Steam if that meant to stop 20 crappy ones from appearing?
I certainly like the approach of having actual impressions on the game right in the store page. Steam's evolving review system is just another tool at one's disposal to make informed purchase decisions.
They should implement some sort of user review system that shows how many hours you've played, lets you write your opinion about the game, and allows you to give it a thumbs up or thumbs down rating to summarize things.
Didn't Gabe say that eventually he thinks Valve shouldn't even be involved with Steam ? I think the responsiblity lies solely with the consumer to do their research. It's not even that Steam is prestigious but it's where you need to go to get sales as that's where the consumer base mostly is - who decides what's good or what's bad ? I don't want someone deciding for me what games should be on Steam. This is why I like seeing a lot of footage on youtube. You have youtubers who make a living buying all these types of games and then showing them/talking about them. Everyone wins in that scenario - youtubers make money from views and you as a potential consumer can see if you find the game interesting or not.
alexandros
Banned
Yeah, it seems so. I really don't know what is it about Valve that causes this kind of reaction.
Jim Sterling
Member
Aaaaaaayup!
Guise of the Wolf and other such games could easily be sold on the dev's own site. It really should be the only place such an unfinished build deserves to be sold.
Delusibeta
Banned
Actually, they should have a "follow" feature so that you're notified of the public community content without having to friend them. So, for example, you can be notified if Jim Sterling makes a Steam recommendation (or un-recommendation) without filling his friends list with strangers.
Well for Steam it's because there are many practical features like automatic patching as well as the community features that doesn't exist when you're downloading a zip file off the developer's website.
Also I'm dumb and easily forget which games I bought (almost lost Civ4 when D2D went under).
People are already complaining about the existing system, so I don't see how "possibility of complaints" is really an argument in favor of continuing to do nothing.
People always complain when Pitchfork releases their "Best New Music of ____" list each year, yet the list still continues to be wildly popular and provide people with a lot of value. I use that as an example rather than Game of the Year lists, because I think the former actually accomplishes the goal of helping people find new things in a sea of uncertain choices whereas the latter is more of a popularity contest among products that already have a huge amount of mindshare.
Guise of the Wolf is next gen Bad Rats. Once the title goes on sale for 49 cents, it will be gifted to everyone. Shame on you for wanting to take this aspect away from Steam.
GrandHarrier
Member
I just wish I could filter out Early Access as a default. I don't want to see them. The few I have bought have all been shit. I want nothing to do with them anymore.
Nabs
Member
This will eventually happen.
I would even go so far as to say it would be a very bad thing if the community was absolutely unified on all issues. One could reach the flattering conclusion that we are all highly intelligent individuals who have derived the same solutions, but more realistically it probably means we have purged all dissenting opinions from our ranks.
Delusibeta
Banned
The former (devs complaining of not getting in) has basically died out with the loosening of Greenlight. Adding in a special zone for "The Best Of" will restart the complaints, in a similar manner to the pre-Greenlight and first few months of Greenlight.
Jim Sterling
Member
You say this, but Jimquisition is hosted on The Escapist, not YouTube, and in order to effectively sell that to my audience, I had to ostensibly audition it and submit it for approval before getting picked up. Now, my early videos weren't that great, but if they were as unfinished and unusable as some of the shit hitting Steam, it wouldn't have gotten a look-in.
My vids were bad, but they were watchable! Same can't be said for some of the shit out there (because again, just being "bad" isn't what my video's against).
At the end of the day, there needs to be accountability somewhere. Valve doesn't have to go all dystopian dictator on the place, but the idea that a company can pass off an unfinished alpha build without worry is galling.
Fragamemnon
Member
The system is fine. If you don't want a crappy game then don't buy it. The Greenlight process is more open than before and that's a good thing.
Steam has somewhat recently implemented a review/recommendation section on each game right from the store that works more or less like amazon's system (most helpful reviews get upvoted). If everything is red thumbs down, that should be a warning to you that you might want to do a bit more digging before buying.
Empowering customers to make decisions is a way better approach than restricting or otherwise curating the store.
I don't want to live in a world where games have to get massively upvoted to the point where you have to buy off a good review from pewdiepie just to get on the store. Let's not go back to those dark Greenlight times.
Steam has somewhat recently implemented a review/recommendation section on each game right from the store that works more or less like amazon's system (most helpful reviews get upvoted). If everything is red thumbs down, that should be a warning to you that you might want to do a bit more digging before buying.
Empowering customers to make decisions is a way better approach than restricting or otherwise curating the store.
I don't want to live in a world where games have to get massively upvoted to the point where you have to buy off a good review from pewdiepie just to get on the store. Let's not go back to those dark Greenlight times.
I agree. I hate navigating iOS/Android stores because it is littered with utter bullshit. All I can do really is sort by the most popular titles, and end up with the same list that has been there for months. Not easy to discover, and the crap to good ratio is way off.
I'm not saying Steam is there yet, but I can see them heading that way if they keep opening this up to everyone.
I'm not saying Steam is there yet, but I can see them heading that way if they keep opening this up to everyone.
la flama blanca
Banned
I'm ok with the "lack of quality control", but honestly, the UI DOES need to be revamped.