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John Carmack: There will still be lots of 30 fps games next generation

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Poimandres

Member
zoner said:
He didn't do that already with the PC version of RAGE?
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The PC version of RAGE is great on mid range machines.

My computer struggles to run most games at 30fps these days, even with modest graphical settings, but RAGE is super smooth and never drops.

The launch was pretty bad, but wasn't that a result of a driver stuff up?

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if Doom 4 is pushed to PS4/720 now. Maybe 30fps on current gen, 60fps next gen?
 
S

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
nincompoop said:
Most Nintendo games on Wii are 60 fps, which is one of the main reasons why the Wii was the only console worth owning this gen. Hopefully that trend continues with the Wii U.
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That was a Pyrrhic victory, at best.

The best hope for 60fps on all next gen games is if motion interpolation becomes the new AA. Which is not optimal but it still beats 30fps.
 
E

Eusis

Member
dark10x said:
The only console worth owning? You've got to be shitting me.
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I dunno, maybe when viewed from the angle of PC filling in the western development gap he has something of a point. I wouldn't agree, but Wii + PC gets you a lot of what's worth playing this generation.
 
T

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
BigTnaples said:
Anyone who thought otherwise was an idiot
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And we're done here. Anyone expecting 60FPS on consoles is looking for this gens graphics on that hardware. Otherwise it's going to be 30FPS or bust.
 
X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Eusis said:
I dunno, maybe when viewed from the angle of PC filling in the western development gap he has something of a point. I wouldn't agree, but Wii + PC gets you a lot of what's worth playing this generation.
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Wii + PC also gives you the option for Dolphin if you have the horsepower for it, since Wii Homebrew is the easiest way to rip ISOs from game discs for Dolphin use.
 
P

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
Of course there will be. There will also be games that are sub 30 and dropping all over the place.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
dark10x said:
I actually think the texture idea is very forward looking but the hardware just isn't there yet.

When viewed from a distance, the level of variety is simply stunning and well beyond anything else out there. There isn't a single repeating texture anywhere on the screen which results in this feeling of a fully hand painted scene rather than one made up of swaths of textures repeated across the geometry.
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Max Payne 3 is the only other game I've seen that comes close to the texture variety in Rage. I loved what they did with Rage visually and hopefully the megatextures will work better on next gen machines. I'm actually hoping for super fast blu ray drives more than anything else next gen so that stuff like that can be streamed smoothly.
 
K

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
For 'cinematic' games and ones that don't require low latency interaction with fast on-screen movement, I thin 30fps is acceptable...

... if we're talking 1080p, v-synch, FSAA.

Sadly, I think we're going to see the same old song and dance. Developers pushing "sexy technology X" that looks novel in screenshots, and not caring about how the game runs, plays, or how it looks on the end user's display.

In other words, 720p (OR SUB HD HA HA... ha...), 20-30fps with stuttering and jerking when you turn the damn camera, etc.

Still, with a noticeable increase in hardware power, I think that better devs will be able to hit their targets a lot better. So the upside may be that we see more games with respectable technical quality, that have stable performance, and are full 1080p HD.
 
S

Seraphinianus

Banned
no surprise. people want eye-fucking graphical effects, even at the cost of resolution, frame rate, IQ in general. Reviewers will criticize the hell out of games that look simpler, even if they run at 60fps. Threads across forums every where will be filled with "LOL Tish shud be XBLA title!!11" after the first batch of screens is released, including here.

Basically, it seems like no one can actually handle seeing a graphically simpler game and accept the trade off for frame rate without yelling "preorder canceled" at sight of the first screenshot.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I hope that if we get a lot of 30fps games next gen we'll at least get subtle, high quality motion blur with them. It really makes things look smoother when done right.
 
F

Fantastical

Death Prophet
nincompoop said:
Most Nintendo games on Wii are 60 fps, which is one of the main reasons why the Wii was the only console worth owning this gen. Hopefully that trend continues with the Wii U.
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60 FPS = the only thing that matters apparently.

Also, were most of Nintendo's games 60 FPS? I honestly don't know. I know SMG & SMG2 were.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
rvy said:
Really? I thought it was an integral part of the game because you need to drive around the world and win credits to unlock stuff?
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The only a couple races are mandatory and for the most part they're pretty short amd easy. Getting around the Wasteland is also really quick. It's important but obviously not the main focus of the game.
 
E

Eusis

Member
specialguy said:
carmack has lost it.
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Orayn said:
Why, for calling this early? He's not saying that next-gen games should target 30 FPS, just that they will.
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Yeah, what the hell? If anything anyone who seriously thinks 60 FPS would be the standard is the person who lost it. Guess it was just misread.

I do expect/hope the line's at least drawn at the sub-HD thing. It's not a problem for me usually on a 720p TV, but it's going to be pretty ridiculous when way more people are on 1080p and they'd still push those effects over HD resolutions and 60 FPS. And hell, I'm usually more impressed by the latter than I ever am with the new effects, even if I do tend to stick with max settings on PC games so long as the framerate is reasonable and it's not AA keeping it below 60.
 
tkscz

tkscz

Member
Does it matter? Honestly if it's a solid 30 then it shouldn't matter. Fun is fun. Learn to have it.
 
C

CLEEK

Member
People usually forget that post-N64, Nintendo games can usually be relied on for two things. 60fps and v-sync. When the DC came out, I really though that home gaming had finally caught up with arcades and all future of gaming would be 60fps. Sadly no, but I do respect the hell out of Nintendo for their commitment to it.
 
M

Man

Member
dark10x said:
I actually think the texture idea is very forward looking but the hardware just isn't there yet.
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Agreed with that. Amazing artistic tool.
It probably won't come to full fruition though before RAM and Storage is one and the same.
 
MrCunningham

MrCunningham

Member
sprsk said:
Same as it ever was.
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Yup. When the last generation consoles were announced, everyone was expecting 60FPS to be the standard then too. But that never happened. As long as there are developers to push hardware features to their limits, 60fps will never truly be the standard.

The only company I could imagine achieving this almost every time, is Nintendo. because their in house teams all seem to take a pretty conservative approach to pushing the hardware. But I don;t expect 3rd party developers on the Wii U to follow the same trend as Nintendo.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I honestly think that next gen will be better for framerates, at least for steady 30fps. The resolution jump this gen eats a ton of resources, especially when a lot of developers weren't prepared for it and architectures were more complicated than expected. A jump to 1080p is smaller than the jump from last gen to the current gen and more up to date hardware will be able to handle effects a lot better. Motion blur and DoF, for instance, won't need to be too much more advanced to look good next gen. 1080p/30fps will hopefully be easily attainable.
 
E

Eusis

Member
SpongeBob NoPants said:
To be honest, I don't care what the framerate is, so long as it's consistent.
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Well, I don't want diving below 30 FPS at the least. Understandable in the 32-bit days, but we're out of them, and have had massive games run at good framerates, so if you are pushing effects to the point it's sub-30 on a reliable basis then maybe you need to dial things down some. ESPECIALLY if it's not even due to rendering a relatively large area or something (Blighttown in Dark Souls giving the view distance), but just a shooting arena with a few enemies, but crazy effects at work (Crysis 2 I believe).
 
Nizz

Nizz

Member
tkscz said:
Does it matter? Honestly if it's a solid 30 then it shouldn't matter. Fun is fun. Learn to have it.
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Only thing is if it's like this gen with some games struggling for 30fps it'll be disappointing. If it's a solid and smooth 30fps with some nice motion blur it'll be great. Hopefully at 1080p.

I'm curious to see those first couple of games where they overlap and are released on current gen and next gen consoles. Imagine the game looking great on current gen and with the extra power they bump the framerate to 60?

But then the further you get into the gen, the more the framerate drops. But honestly if it's a solid 30fps with no drops I'm good. It's when they dip under 30 where things get choppy...
 
D

DangerousDave

Member
There will be always (if there isn't any significative technology change or a general mind change that make people don't care about graphics anymore) 30 fps games.

Most of the people don't care about 60 or 30 fps, except if it's a very specific kind of game (racing simulations, for example). But aiming 30 fps allows you to add double polycount (or more effects, or better lights, etc) that is something that people can see easier (even in a picture or video, where the fps is unnoticiable).

Games like Uncharted or Gears of War would be less graphically amazing if they aimed for 60 fps.
 
E

EatinOlives

Member
Considering how framerate was a problem ever since games started to go 3D, it's surprising that people expect future generation games to have 60FPS as a platform standard. No amount of power will ever guarantee that. A developer who gets free reign to work with more powerful hardware will almost always go for prettier visuals at 30 FPS (or even lower than that in many cases). Only developers who have a complete commitment to 60 FPS will go out of their way to make it happen.

Don't get me wrong, a constant 60 FPS is one of the things I love most graphics-wise when games have it (far above fancy shaders), but it ain't happening on consoles. People who really want that framerate should get a PC and not look back, that's really the only place where you can consistently get that if you have the money for it.
 
S

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
Pinzer said:
What games? Why is 60fps so important?
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You lose visual fluency with 30fps because games do a poor job of replicating motion at that framerate. So imagine trying to hit a moving target in a dark room with a strobe light on. PC users are more sensitive to it because 60fps is the norm and there's typically no aim assistance on that platform.

This is also the main reason why fighting games are 60fps. It's really hard to follow fast action when the framerate is low.
 
R

rvy

Banned
DangerousDave said:
Most of the people don't care about 60 or 30 fps, except if it's a very specific kind of game (racing simulations, for example).
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They don't care because they don't see the difference from videos. They can feel it though. I'm talking about the CoD crowd here.
 
C

CLEEK

Member
I remember when I first got my 360 with RR6 and PGR3. The former not having any fancy shader effects, just stark, vibrant 60fps loveliness. PGR3 sacrifices frame rate for 'next gen' graphical effects, and playing it in cockpit view really was something at the time. But if I ever played the games in close succession, RR6 made PGR3 look horrible and feel almost unplayably sluggish.
 
J

jett

D-Member
ViewtifulJC said:
ibu2XpBybe1y0m.gif
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lol
 
D

dsk1210

Member
I would love to see a 1080 30 fps and 720p 60 fps option on the next gen, it takes roughly the same processing power to do both.
 
P

Pinzer

Unconfirmed Member
SapientWolf said:
You lose visual fluency with 30fps because games do a poor job of replicating motion at that framerate. So imagine trying to hit a moving target in a dark room with a strobe light on. PC users are more sensitive to it because 60fps is the norm and there's typically no aim assistance on that platform.

This is also the main reason why fighting games are 60fps. It's really hard to follow fast action when the framerate is low.
Click to expand...

Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.
 
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