Fallout-NL
Member
Exactly.
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Jonathan Blow Twitter Drama, E3 and Violence
- Thread starter Armadilo
- Start date
Exactly.
Comfort Jones
Banned
I'm starting to get a vibe of complete ignorance from people defending her statement there, I mean literally straight up telling me I have "thin skin", like yes please lay on even more insults to tell me I shouldn't be insulted that I'm being told that one of the games I was excited for is disturbing.
I was very excited for Doom and was pretty happy when I played it. Then I went outside and enjoyed a nice long walk with my dog and didn't do anything bad because I'm a fairly well rounded person and I don't need people telling me what I'm into is troubling.
Well of course but I'm saying it's absolutely stupid to tell someone they enjoy something deplorable and then claim you didn't just insult them. That's being dishonest.
LifeBrandRobot
Member
Notch was unnecessarily douchey, but come on Blow. People keep telling me how smart you're supposed to be, no need to spew bullshit.
Again, that's completely fine. But why say that there's "something seriously wrong" with me because I enjoyed the Doom trailer? How can I not take that personally?
That start with doom is too violent, then smash bros melee is too violent and what is the next step ?
I tried to make a reasonable point about exactly this in the Friday the 13th thread, that brutally murdering a defenseless person in graphic realism is off putting just like how that game Hatred was off putting. Pretty much the entire thread went into defense mode. People refuse to even discuss it and take it as an assault on their rights. I don't get it.
At an EA conference? When?
What's your problem.gifThe problem with that Verge article:
Why can't an outlet provide multiple POVs?
Omnistalgic
Member
Man, you need to get over yourself IMO or reevaluate what you’re playing. Either you don’t care what people think about your entertainment or you do. There was once a time (still is to many) where any game you played, regardless of genre, labeled you a “geek” in many societies. Just do you.
That woman has every right, insulting or not, to say that Doom is disturbing to her. Saying something is wrong with people who enjoy it is her being judgmental though, and she can go and kick rocks with that.
Criticism of violence in videogames is how Hitler started. I have madeup proof here. Also MacIntosh.
Anyway yeah, the followers are seemingly mostly to entrenched in the consumerist way of thinking. We lose our shit when a game underperforms but when someone tries to reflect on how much cultural value in a game is he/she commits blasphemy. I guess change has to come from the "outside" like Bafta.
Heckler456
Banned
It's a valid observation from my point of view. And, come on now, useless? Do you really think it's useless to have a conversation regarding violence in video games?
Comfort Jones
Banned
Well there's a complete lack of an argument to anything I'm saying lol.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
You are compltely ignoring people's points here. People aren't saying that you can't or shouldn't find it offputting. They're saying that saying that something is wrong with someone else because they DON'T find it offputting is a ridiculous notion.
People have pretty clearly laid out what they've meant when they said this. To the point that I think you're bring willfully ignorant to what they're saying here.
No, but I think that particular criticism is. It holds bo substance and is nothing more than a drive by shot with no larger point behind it. Like I said, it's a very surface level criticism.
Not only that, it's one that's been made dozens, if not hundreds of times before.
Omnistalgic
Member
agreed...Like I said, thats being judgmental, thats not cool IMO...
It is insulting though, because it's an incredibly condescending. The only reason that people "cheering for bodies being ripped apart" in a trailer for a new Doom game would be considered "troubling" is either because the person who feels that way is too stupid to understand that no real people were harmed at all to create this entertainment, or more likely, they assume the people cheering are too stupid to differentiate between virtual violence and real violence and that being entertained by the former will lead to the latter. If Anita, or J Blow for that matter, don't care for blood and gore in games, just say that and leave it at that. The constant insinuation that violence in video games is causing some kind of morality decay does nothing but make them look like fools because it's intellectually dishonest.
And the reason the reaction to this type of "criticism" in games is so scathing compared to critical ruminations on violence in movies or other mediums is because the threat of actual censorship and legislative scapegoating of video games was very real very recently. Hollywood has serious lobbyists looking out for them. A decade ago, the presumptive Presidential candidate for a major party was on the warpath against video game violence, not movie violence.
FriedConsole
Banned
I am ready to have that conversation. First point to the acts of violence caused by video games. Second point to the science that says video games caused people to go violent. Let's go.
People just want to throw out hollier than thou statements that they are cooler people for playing arty indie games instead of creatins that play AAA games without backing up what they are implying.
AuthenticM
Member
I don't agree with Blow, but Notch is a fucking asshole.
Yeah, super embarrassing.
Heckler456
Banned
Not trying to jump down your throat or anything, but I think you (along with quite a few other people here) are being a little too defensive. I get that Blow has a reputation, but if you take his tweet at face value, it isn't even a criticism. It's a valid, if not factual observation. While using the incendiary term "mass murder" could have been left by the wayside, it's also not an incorrect way of describing what you do in a ton of violent games.
Not to mention that it's kind of duplicitous to criticize a tweet of all things for not being substantial enough. It almost can't be, by its very nature.
I don't know what to tell you man, neither me nor Blow (going off of the tweets in question only) even implied anything close to a direct link between video games and violence. I mean, hell, he even specifically touches on that point in one of the tweets: "Note that I have said NOTHING about distinguishing fantasy from reality, so please do not try to raise that as an objection."
I've never said "people need to feel like THIS" about things. I don't agree with that and never have. If there's something I find totally distasteful, I'll express it and ask others who don't feel the same why they feel that way. But that hasn't been the case in a lot of instances here - as soon as someone even asks the question, or wonders why one game is considered obscene and another not, people get unbelievably defensive and accuse you of censorship or whatever. That they shouldn't be even be questioned in the first place for what kinds of games they like.
TatteredHat
Member
I don't see the problem if this is what people enjoy playing.
I would say that analysis of representations of violence is pretty discredited in every other medium than video games.
Nobody has taken such analysis of film seriously since gaze theory was discredited in the early 80s.
toddhunter
Member
The friday the 13th game is disturbing to me. Go check it out, it is pretty messed up.
Now should it be censored? No I'm not calling for that at all. People at different stages of their lives can enjoy what they want and it makes sense that violent games are made to appeal to the market. I was once a big fan of them myself.
But do I wish more people would reject it so that more games were made without killing? Yes. Will that happen? Yes I believe so, as the gaming community ages, and to be brutally honest, naturally grows up.
People like Blow are just already there. It isn't a problem and I don't see a big conflict besides Notch sitting in his money bin being a dick. It'll all sort itself out one way or another in time.
Now should it be censored? No I'm not calling for that at all. People at different stages of their lives can enjoy what they want and it makes sense that violent games are made to appeal to the market. I was once a big fan of them myself.
But do I wish more people would reject it so that more games were made without killing? Yes. Will that happen? Yes I believe so, as the gaming community ages, and to be brutally honest, naturally grows up.
People like Blow are just already there. It isn't a problem and I don't see a big conflict besides Notch sitting in his money bin being a dick. It'll all sort itself out one way or another in time.
It´s sad that so many successful videogames are all about violence and nothing more. One friend of mine refused to try Splatoon because it looked childish and asked to go back to playing CoD to kill some zombies because blood was so much cooler. He´s almost 40. Ultimately it´s his loss, he´ll never experience the pure fun that Splatoon may have given him.
Any way, just let people play and enjoy whatever they want, I myself enjoy some violent games from time to time, but usually because the game offers something more other than blood explosions. It´s been decades since I ferveshly defended that MK was better than SF2, when I only thought that way because of the fatalities.
That said, even though I agrre with Blow´s core premise he needs to get off his high horse and respect other people´s tastes even if he doesn´t agree with them. And Notch...wasn´t he tweeting some weeks ago that he was feeling very lonely and depressed since he had become a millionaire? Money might not be the cause of that loneliness reading his latest tweets, guy seems to have gone into full asshole mode. I wish that he can sort his stuff out and find something that makes him happy.
Any way, just let people play and enjoy whatever they want, I myself enjoy some violent games from time to time, but usually because the game offers something more other than blood explosions. It´s been decades since I ferveshly defended that MK was better than SF2, when I only thought that way because of the fatalities.
That said, even though I agrre with Blow´s core premise he needs to get off his high horse and respect other people´s tastes even if he doesn´t agree with them. And Notch...wasn´t he tweeting some weeks ago that he was feeling very lonely and depressed since he had become a millionaire? Money might not be the cause of that loneliness reading his latest tweets, guy seems to have gone into full asshole mode. I wish that he can sort his stuff out and find something that makes him happy.
Riposte
Member
No one is stopping anyone from doing an analysis of anything. It just so happens that people might not take your effort seriously and may disagree with you, especially if you are being a smug dick about it to them. The idea that such analysis is taken deeply seriously in other mediums is suspect, most people certainly do not give a fuck about what some academic is concocting up in paper while watching a Marvel movie or reading a century old novel.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Then don't make the statememt in the first place until you have something behind it. Just because you can say something, doesnt mean you should. It's beyond tiring to watch people say things just because they can and it happens far too often on the internet.
It's obvious he's being critical of it because of his past opinions. He's just looking for another instance to take a pot shot.
This battle (uhuh) about the legitimacy of "gratuitous" or "excessive" violence is to me an everlasting example of the inability to be empathetic to someone different than you on a more fundamental level than political ideology (as an example), I'm talking about the sensibility with which each person absorbs and deals with, stuff like fear of death and catharsis.
I say this because I've gone through so many elongated (and fruitless) discussions on whether or not something like Martyrs was a masterpiece of cinema, or a perverted, niche, masturbatory fantasy, that I can't but attribute this inability to understand each other, to some fundamental inner difference.
I say this because I've gone through so many elongated (and fruitless) discussions on whether or not something like Martyrs was a masterpiece of cinema, or a perverted, niche, masturbatory fantasy, that I can't but attribute this inability to understand each other, to some fundamental inner difference.
Wait, what? Critical analysis of violence in film hasn't been taken seriously since the 80's? That's patently false, I have no idea where you're getting your information from. It's as relevant today as it's ever been.
FriedConsole
Banned
Yeah it is kind of weird how Christian conservatives have pretty much given up on this ghost but now so called progressive liberals want to "start the conversation". But it is different because they aren't trying to ban games?
Audioboxer
Member
I think one thing we probably can admit is reasonable to say is the depiction of violence in games has become more realistic. That can bring a lower threshold for someone to get grossed out/find it disturbing.
However it's not so dissimilar to how movie/tv show props and special effects improved. A zombie flick from the 80/90s might have cheesy blood effects and look rather unrealistic. Compare that to TWD now though and it genuinely looks like blood and dismemberment.
Personally feeling disturbed though is just that, a personal view. Somehow trying to inflict that view on others who aren't grossed out and ask them to question themselves is what understandably ruffles feathers. It's just part of life that graphics and special effects improve as technology does.
However it's not so dissimilar to how movie/tv show props and special effects improved. A zombie flick from the 80/90s might have cheesy blood effects and look rather unrealistic. Compare that to TWD now though and it genuinely looks like blood and dismemberment.
Personally feeling disturbed though is just that, a personal view. Somehow trying to inflict that view on others who aren't grossed out and ask them to question themselves is what understandably ruffles feathers. It's just part of life that graphics and special effects improve as technology does.
There's no good reason why violent video games should go under renewed scrutiny after what happened yesterday. What happened yesterday isn't new, was bound to happen, and will continue to happen in the future. If anyone is genuinely interested in minimizing these kinds of terrible events then there's better ways to spend your time, money, and energy than blaming the entertainment industry.
Write letters, protest, and be good hearted to everyone.
Fight for a compromise on gun control. Where we ban automatic weapons as well as semi-automatic weapons with large magazines/clips. If we can make that happen, let's leave it at that for a while and see how it goes before going any further.
Reach out to friends, family, and co-workers that are going through hard times for any reason. If there's someone you feel is disturbed or unstable and in a position to do serious harm then make a strong effort to alert anyone that can help.
Be kind, selfless, and accepting of others in the real world AND on online. Stop jumping to conclusions, stop shit posting, stop grouping up on someone that said something stupid, etc.
Just remember that terrorism is here to stay for a very long time. Mass shooting/killings (of varying scales) are here to stay. They've always been happening and the only surprise is that these kinds of things didn't happen sooner. There are dark times ahead. America is filled with people living in fear of change, race, and religion but that doesn't mean you can't make a difference. Just make sure that when you're trying to make the world a better place you do your research (from multiple sources) to make sure you've got your facts straight and don't leave your common sense and heart behind.
Write letters, protest, and be good hearted to everyone.
Fight for a compromise on gun control. Where we ban automatic weapons as well as semi-automatic weapons with large magazines/clips. If we can make that happen, let's leave it at that for a while and see how it goes before going any further.
Reach out to friends, family, and co-workers that are going through hard times for any reason. If there's someone you feel is disturbed or unstable and in a position to do serious harm then make a strong effort to alert anyone that can help.
Be kind, selfless, and accepting of others in the real world AND on online. Stop jumping to conclusions, stop shit posting, stop grouping up on someone that said something stupid, etc.
Just remember that terrorism is here to stay for a very long time. Mass shooting/killings (of varying scales) are here to stay. They've always been happening and the only surprise is that these kinds of things didn't happen sooner. There are dark times ahead. America is filled with people living in fear of change, race, and religion but that doesn't mean you can't make a difference. Just make sure that when you're trying to make the world a better place you do your research (from multiple sources) to make sure you've got your facts straight and don't leave your common sense and heart behind.
Dandy Lyin
Member
Agreed. Notch used to seem like a nice guy, but lately he's proven otherwise.
Heckler456
Banned
I don't think your assessment of him as a person is fair, and I don't think that you have to justify sharing your opinion on your own personal twitter to the degree that you're implying you should. But I can see that you've already made up your mind, so let's leave it at that.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I am fast approaching the point where I can barely take most people's take on the industry seriously. The whole talk about violence at E3 today in the few times I've been able to get online during a long trip home has really hammered home both the extreme jumps people can make linking violence to games and how insanely defensive people can get when something they like gets criticized, even if in a bit of a bone-headed.
Perfectly said.
The good news is that parents can -mostly- choose/control what their children are exposed to.
I mean, if you look at what is being made, at what is on GOTY-lists, what is happening in the phone space, phenomenon like Wii sports, Dance games or Minecraft, there's already an abundance of sucessful nonviolent games and it's steadily growing.
Being cross that Call of Duty has a bigger marketing budget than Life is strange doesn't seem super useful. Nor do I understand that a room full of people that enjoy bethestha games cheers when said publishers brings back a beloved property is considered "troubling" (the context around DOOM is just as important as what is in the trailer itself).
Somehow people on Gaf and the "critics" in the press consistently forget all the huge sucesses and marketing pushes nonviolent games get because the audience of 18-35 Males aren't interested in them and the CG isn't as pretty.
MysteryQuesadilla
Member
Notch is what happens when you live like the kid from Blank Check but with unlimited free time.
Comfort Jones
Banned
Tbh I don't think this is that true anymore. Unless you're SEVERELY limiting their access to a computer/how much you let them go over to a friend's house you really can't stop them from getting into all kinds of stuff. While I generally don't believe you should censor anything for the sake of children I think it is fair to say kids are being exposed to stuff with or without their parent's permission. I think the discussion now is how do parents handle that.
Early on he always seemed like the one of the nicest guys in the industry. It's pretty clear, though, that he's had to put up with a lot of shit from his own community over the years (which as wel all know can really wear you down). On top of that, he had trouble handling the success of Minecraft as well as the pressure placed on him to follow it up with something as groundbreaking. I empathize with him but that doesn't excuse a lot of what he's said in recent years.
Would also help to clarify what exactly the possible solution to the perceived violence problem is. What exactly do people want to be done about it.
legacyzero
Banned
Damn, Notch with that fire. And I think his snipes were warranted IMO. Seems like games journos and a few devs want the clicks and attention to diss violent video games when it's clear there is no connection between violence and games.
Far as I can tell videogames had 0% to do with the Orlando shooting.
This is the epitome of self-absorbed opportunism.
If we are just randomly attacking violence in media lets start with the much more realistic violence on TV and in movies.
No?
I guess lame gamers with their nerdy uncoolness just make easier targets.
This is the epitome of self-absorbed opportunism.
If we are just randomly attacking violence in media lets start with the much more realistic violence on TV and in movies.
No?
I guess lame gamers with their nerdy uncoolness just make easier targets.